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RE: [S-R] Other social groups

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  • Janet Kozlay
    Well, I really didn t think I was setting a trap for you. My apologies, and thanks, as always, for providing more information. :-) However, from my experience
    Message 1 of 7 , Mar 4 6:49 AM
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      Well, I really didn't think I was setting a trap for you. My apologies, and
      thanks, as always, for providing more information. :-) However, from my
      experience in the records this was not just an isolated exception. I have
      run into a number of instances of nobility who were not related to this
      family who were also butchers (though I have not seen nobles listed as
      millers or smiths). I always thought this was strange, but I couldn't ignore
      what was clearly there.
      You are certainly right about moving around. The family lived in a number of
      different villages over the years. You are also right that these were not
      small villages, but nagyközség.
      Janet


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@...]
      Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 2:06 PM
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [S-R] Other social groups


      Dear Janet,
      You set me a trap:-)
      What you are describing was probably the case with your family, which is not
      a representative case.
      Why the craftsmen were mainly subinquilini? Because they were not bonded to
      the land as the coloni were.
      They were usually living in other people's houses and this was the main
      characteristic of a subinquilinus. Millers, blacksmiths, taylors etc, they
      all were free to move and where they came to settle, they were tenants.
      Later on, they acquired houses etc.
      Bottom or not bottom;
      In feudal times the main asset was land and an inquilinus or subinquilinus
      died not have any land. So this was the criteria to sort them.
      You can not say:" My ancestor was a noble blacksmith, so I expect every
      blacksmith was noble." Nothing farther from the truth.
      If you were a nobleman, it did not say anything about your real social
      status. I found noblemen dying as a beggar. This was very often the case.
      Many noble properties were lost due to negligence and dolce vita, or
      through inheritance.
      Of course, when talking about the social structure, I had villages in mind,
      not towns.
      Towns were different.
      Vladimir

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Janet Kozlay
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 6:09 PM
      Subject: RE: [S-R] Other social groups


      Well, I know of at least one major exception. He was a non-propertied
      noble
      who was a leaseholder of the butchery, mill, sawmill, tavern, and wine and
      flax presses and one of the wealthiest men in the county. He married into
      a
      family of butchers who I believe were also nobles. Other friends and
      relatives tended to be priests, shopkeepers, teachers, estate managers,
      and
      lawyers, which gives the sense that this represented what we would think
      of
      as a middle class. (This was in the 1830s and 40s.) I have to agree that
      they were a small group percentagewise, but they are often dismissed
      completely in the literature, and of course they do appear in the church
      records. Your characterization of them as subinquilini suggests that they
      were on the bottom of the social barrel, which at least in this instance
      was
      far from the case. Perhaps the status of such an occupation varied among
      regions.
      Janet

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@...]
      Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 10:50 AM
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [S-R] Other social groups


      True, they were there too, but they can be seen as group in a wider sense.
      In a community, there were not many, and they usually were subinquilini
      anyway.
      I knew only one female blacksmith in my life. My opinion is, that what you
      saw were the spouses of.
      Generally speaking, the craftsmanship was not reserved for nobles. They
      were
      rather exceptions than a rule.
      Vladimir

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Janet Kozlay
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 2:05 PM
      Subject: [S-R] Other social groups




      Let's not forget that there are other social groups besides the farmers,
      such as the craftsmen and the nobles. In the Latin records you run
      across
      lanio (butcher), molitor (miller), and fabri (smith), who served their
      communities but were not farmers. Yesterday for the first time I ran
      across
      entries for women (godmothers) who were designated as lanionissa,
      molitorissa, and fabrissa. Do these signify that they were married to
      their
      respective butchers, millers, and smiths, or could there actually have
      been
      "butcheresses," "milleresses," and female smiths? I suspect the former,
      but
      I'd like another opinion. I would also like an opinion on whether in
      your
      experiences most of these specialties were filled by the minor nobility.
      I
      seem to have evidence that this was so, at least in the areas I have
      been
      searching.

      Janet







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    • amiak27
      To add a note to Vlad s reply: at least in the 1800 s & after, the ethic of the nobility reflected in the history books is one of being above commercialism,
      Message 2 of 7 , Mar 4 6:56 AM
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        To add a note to Vlad's reply: at least in the 1800's & after, the
        ethic of the nobility reflected in the history books is one of being
        above commercialism, above business and dirtying their hands in
        business, much less the trades. Perhaps earlier times & some
        locations some minor nobility got hungry and adapted a more
        pragmatic morality as you point out, but at this time it was more
        respectable to move to town and take a government job and play the
        liesurely, self-important noble and bureaucrat working a few hours
        at his desk & spending time at coffehouses & a respectable
        mistress. With perhaps Esterhazy the exception, many 'nobles' are
        not recorded as contributing much to their country economically.

        Ron


        --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Vladimir Bohinc"
        <konekta@n...> wrote:
        > Dear Janet,
        > You set me a trap:-)
        > What you are describing was probably the case with your family,
        which is not a representative case.
        > Why the craftsmen were mainly subinquilini? Because they were not
        bonded to the land as the coloni were.
        > They were usually living in other people's houses and this was the
        main characteristic of a subinquilinus. Millers, blacksmiths,
        taylors etc, they all were free to move and where they came to
        settle, they were tenants. Later on, they acquired houses etc.
        > Bottom or not bottom;
        > In feudal times the main asset was land and an inquilinus or
        subinquilinus died not have any land. So this was the criteria to
        sort them.
        > You can not say:" My ancestor was a noble blacksmith, so I expect
        every blacksmith was noble." Nothing farther from the truth.
        > If you were a nobleman, it did not say anything about your real
        social status. I found noblemen dying as a beggar. This was very
        often the case. Many noble properties were lost due to negligence
        and dolce vita, or through inheritance.
        > Of course, when talking about the social structure, I had villages
        in mind, not towns.
        > Towns were different.
        > Vladimir
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Janet Kozlay
        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 6:09 PM
        > Subject: RE: [S-R] Other social groups
        >
        >
        > Well, I know of at least one major exception. He was a non-
        propertied noble
        > who was a leaseholder of the butchery, mill, sawmill, tavern,
        and wine and
        > flax presses and one of the wealthiest men in the county. He
        married into a
        > family of butchers who I believe were also nobles. Other friends
        and
        > relatives tended to be priests, shopkeepers, teachers, estate
        managers, and
        > lawyers, which gives the sense that this represented what we
        would think of
        > as a middle class. (This was in the 1830s and 40s.) I have to
        agree that
        > they were a small group percentagewise, but they are often
        dismissed
        > completely in the literature, and of course they do appear in
        the church
        > records. Your characterization of them as subinquilini suggests
        that they
        > were on the bottom of the social barrel, which at least in this
        instance was
        > far from the case. Perhaps the status of such an occupation
        varied among
        > regions.
        > Janet
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@n...]
        > Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 10:50 AM
        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [S-R] Other social groups
        >
        >
        > True, they were there too, but they can be seen as group in a
        wider sense.
        > In a community, there were not many, and they usually were
        subinquilini
        > anyway.
        > I knew only one female blacksmith in my life. My opinion is,
        that what you
        > saw were the spouses of.
        > Generally speaking, the craftsmanship was not reserved for
        nobles. They were
        > rather exceptions than a rule.
        > Vladimir
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Janet Kozlay
        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 2:05 PM
        > Subject: [S-R] Other social groups
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Let's not forget that there are other social groups besides
        the farmers,
        > such as the craftsmen and the nobles. In the Latin records you
        run across
        > lanio (butcher), molitor (miller), and fabri (smith), who
        served their
        > communities but were not farmers. Yesterday for the first time
        I ran
        > across
        > entries for women (godmothers) who were designated as
        lanionissa,
        > molitorissa, and fabrissa. Do these signify that they were
        married to
        > their
        > respective butchers, millers, and smiths, or could there
        actually have
        > been
        > "butcheresses," "milleresses," and female smiths? I suspect
        the former,
        > but
        > I'd like another opinion. I would also like an opinion on
        whether in your
        > experiences most of these specialties were filled by the minor
        nobility. I
        > seem to have evidence that this was so, at least in the areas
        I have been
        > searching.
        >
        > Janet
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
        > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank
        email to
        > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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      • Jan Ammann
        Hello.....Vlad and others on the social question ... I recently was fortunate enough to secure the marriage records on a family history member that I am
        Message 3 of 7 , Mar 4 9:08 AM
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          Hello.....Vlad and others on the "social question"...

          I recently was fortunate enough to secure the marriage records on a family history member that I am researching. He was a nobleman...Jobah�zi D�ry J�zsef (a Baron). In the marriage record he is listed as a Second Lieutenant in the Hungarian Royal Husaren regiment. I believe this was his "career" as I find him in many years after......1927, 1928, 1938, 1940, and 1941. Therefore, I would deem him to have contributed to the world of Hungary and surrounding areas.

          J�zef's father was Mikl�s who was a Royal Chamberlain. I am not sure what this exactly entailed but perhaps it falls under your theory of "noble's not doing hard work". Of course, that is only a guess on anyone's part as I do not have a real description of this job. I am sure they contributed to the world around them.

          The witnesses for this wedding were also of noble birth. Guary B�la was also a Royal Chamberlain to the main chair of the Judge of Kapuv�r. The other witness was a Count Fesztetics Elek from Sopron......no profession listed for him.

          I guess what I am trying to say is that I would not care to "put everyone who was noble" in a particular work pattern. As with all people in this day and time, there were so many variables in work conditions and patterns. I am sure there were some "losers" as we call people who do not pull their weight in this time frame as there were also "winners" who were energetic and very professional.

          These are just my thoughts.......no concrete evidence of anything. I just wanted to add to this discussion and perhaps give a different point of view.

          Cheers,
          Jan


          amiak27 <rmat@...> wrote:

          To add a note to Vlad's reply: at least in the 1800's & after, the
          ethic of the nobility reflected in the history books is one of being
          above commercialism, above business and dirtying their hands in
          business, much less the trades. Perhaps earlier times & some
          locations some minor nobility got hungry and adapted a more
          pragmatic morality as you point out, but at this time it was more
          respectable to move to town and take a government job and play the
          liesurely, self-important noble and bureaucrat working a few hours
          at his desk & spending time at coffehouses & a respectable
          mistress. With perhaps Esterhazy the exception, many 'nobles' are
          not recorded as contributing much to their country economically.

          Ron


          --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Vladimir Bohinc"
          <konekta@n...> wrote:
          > Dear Janet,
          > You set me a trap:-)
          > What you are describing was probably the case with your family,
          which is not a representative case.
          > Why the craftsmen were mainly subinquilini? Because they were not
          bonded to the land as the coloni were.
          > They were usually living in other people's houses and this was the
          main characteristic of a subinquilinus. Millers, blacksmiths,
          taylors etc, they all were free to move and where they came to
          settle, they were tenants. Later on, they acquired houses etc.
          > Bottom or not bottom;
          > In feudal times the main asset was land and an inquilinus or
          subinquilinus died not have any land. So this was the criteria to
          sort them.
          > You can not say:" My ancestor was a noble blacksmith, so I expect
          every blacksmith was noble." Nothing farther from the truth.
          > If you were a nobleman, it did not say anything about your real
          social status. I found noblemen dying as a beggar. This was very
          often the case. Many noble properties were lost due to negligence
          and dolce vita, or through inheritance.
          > Of course, when talking about the social structure, I had villages
          in mind, not towns.
          > Towns were different.
          > Vladimir
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Janet Kozlay
          > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 6:09 PM
          > Subject: RE: [S-R] Other social groups
          >
          >
          > Well, I know of at least one major exception. He was a non-
          propertied noble
          > who was a leaseholder of the butchery, mill, sawmill, tavern,
          and wine and
          > flax presses and one of the wealthiest men in the county. He
          married into a
          > family of butchers who I believe were also nobles. Other friends
          and
          > relatives tended to be priests, shopkeepers, teachers, estate
          managers, and
          > lawyers, which gives the sense that this represented what we
          would think of
          > as a middle class. (This was in the 1830s and 40s.) I have to
          agree that
          > they were a small group percentagewise, but they are often
          dismissed
          > completely in the literature, and of course they do appear in
          the church
          > records. Your characterization of them as subinquilini suggests
          that they
          > were on the bottom of the social barrel, which at least in this
          instance was
          > far from the case. Perhaps the status of such an occupation
          varied among
          > regions.
          > Janet
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@n...]
          > Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 10:50 AM
          > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [S-R] Other social groups
          >
          >
          > True, they were there too, but they can be seen as group in a
          wider sense.
          > In a community, there were not many, and they usually were
          subinquilini
          > anyway.
          > I knew only one female blacksmith in my life. My opinion is,
          that what you
          > saw were the spouses of.
          > Generally speaking, the craftsmanship was not reserved for
          nobles. They were
          > rather exceptions than a rule.
          > Vladimir
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Janet Kozlay
          > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 2:05 PM
          > Subject: [S-R] Other social groups
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Let's not forget that there are other social groups besides
          the farmers,
          > such as the craftsmen and the nobles. In the Latin records you
          run across
          > lanio (butcher), molitor (miller), and fabri (smith), who
          served their
          > communities but were not farmers. Yesterday for the first time
          I ran
          > across
          > entries for women (godmothers) who were designated as
          lanionissa,
          > molitorissa, and fabrissa. Do these signify that they were
          married to
          > their
          > respective butchers, millers, and smiths, or could there
          actually have
          > been
          > "butcheresses," "milleresses," and female smiths? I suspect
          the former,
          > but
          > I'd like another opinion. I would also like an opinion on
          whether in your
          > experiences most of these specialties were filled by the minor
          nobility. I
          > seem to have evidence that this was so, at least in the areas
          I have been
          > searching.
          >
          > Janet
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
          > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank
          email to
          > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Vladimir Bohinc
          Yes Jan, what you say is correct. You can find nobles through the whole scale. Once I was translating a diary of a hungarian Nobleman. he was good, very good.
          Message 4 of 7 , Mar 4 9:27 AM
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            Yes Jan, what you say is correct.
            You can find nobles through the whole scale.
            Once I was translating a diary of a hungarian Nobleman. he was good, very
            good. But some members of his family were bad. Especially women. They
            gambled all the property which they inherited. Just dolce vita.
            Very often you find them as officers in the Army.
            Towards the end of the 19th century many have either sold or let out on
            lease their estates to the Jews.
            Vladimir

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Jan Ammann" <janammann@...>
            To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 6:08 PM
            Subject: Re: [S-R] Other social groups



            Hello.....Vlad and others on the "social question"...

            I recently was fortunate enough to secure the marriage records on a family
            history member that I am researching. He was a nobleman...Jobaházi Dőry
            József (a Baron). In the marriage record he is listed as a Second
            Lieutenant in the Hungarian Royal Husaren regiment. I believe this was his
            "career" as I find him in many years after......1927, 1928, 1938, 1940, and
            1941. Therefore, I would deem him to have contributed to the world of
            Hungary and surrounding areas.

            Józef's father was Miklós who was a Royal Chamberlain. I am not sure what
            this exactly entailed but perhaps it falls under your theory of "noble's not
            doing hard work". Of course, that is only a guess on anyone's part as I do
            not have a real description of this job. I am sure they contributed to the
            world around them.

            The witnesses for this wedding were also of noble birth. Guary Béla was
            also a Royal Chamberlain to the main chair of the Judge of Kapuvár. The
            other witness was a Count Fesztetics Elek from Sopron......no profession
            listed for him.

            I guess what I am trying to say is that I would not care to "put everyone
            who was noble" in a particular work pattern. As with all people in this day
            and time, there were so many variables in work conditions and patterns. I
            am sure there were some "losers" as we call people who do not pull their
            weight in this time frame as there were also "winners" who were energetic
            and very professional.

            These are just my thoughts.......no concrete evidence of anything. I just
            wanted to add to this discussion and perhaps give a different point of view.

            Cheers,
            Jan


            amiak27 <rmat@...> wrote:

            To add a note to Vlad's reply: at least in the 1800's & after, the
            ethic of the nobility reflected in the history books is one of being
            above commercialism, above business and dirtying their hands in
            business, much less the trades. Perhaps earlier times & some
            locations some minor nobility got hungry and adapted a more
            pragmatic morality as you point out, but at this time it was more
            respectable to move to town and take a government job and play the
            liesurely, self-important noble and bureaucrat working a few hours
            at his desk & spending time at coffehouses & a respectable
            mistress. With perhaps Esterhazy the exception, many 'nobles' are
            not recorded as contributing much to their country economically.

            Ron


            --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Vladimir Bohinc"
            <konekta@n...> wrote:
            > Dear Janet,
            > You set me a trap:-)
            > What you are describing was probably the case with your family,
            which is not a representative case.
            > Why the craftsmen were mainly subinquilini? Because they were not
            bonded to the land as the coloni were.
            > They were usually living in other people's houses and this was the
            main characteristic of a subinquilinus. Millers, blacksmiths,
            taylors etc, they all were free to move and where they came to
            settle, they were tenants. Later on, they acquired houses etc.
            > Bottom or not bottom;
            > In feudal times the main asset was land and an inquilinus or
            subinquilinus died not have any land. So this was the criteria to
            sort them.
            > You can not say:" My ancestor was a noble blacksmith, so I expect
            every blacksmith was noble." Nothing farther from the truth.
            > If you were a nobleman, it did not say anything about your real
            social status. I found noblemen dying as a beggar. This was very
            often the case. Many noble properties were lost due to negligence
            and dolce vita, or through inheritance.
            > Of course, when talking about the social structure, I had villages
            in mind, not towns.
            > Towns were different.
            > Vladimir
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Janet Kozlay
            > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 6:09 PM
            > Subject: RE: [S-R] Other social groups
            >
            >
            > Well, I know of at least one major exception. He was a non-
            propertied noble
            > who was a leaseholder of the butchery, mill, sawmill, tavern,
            and wine and
            > flax presses and one of the wealthiest men in the county. He
            married into a
            > family of butchers who I believe were also nobles. Other friends
            and
            > relatives tended to be priests, shopkeepers, teachers, estate
            managers, and
            > lawyers, which gives the sense that this represented what we
            would think of
            > as a middle class. (This was in the 1830s and 40s.) I have to
            agree that
            > they were a small group percentagewise, but they are often
            dismissed
            > completely in the literature, and of course they do appear in
            the church
            > records. Your characterization of them as subinquilini suggests
            that they
            > were on the bottom of the social barrel, which at least in this
            instance was
            > far from the case. Perhaps the status of such an occupation
            varied among
            > regions.
            > Janet
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@n...]
            > Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 10:50 AM
            > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [S-R] Other social groups
            >
            >
            > True, they were there too, but they can be seen as group in a
            wider sense.
            > In a community, there were not many, and they usually were
            subinquilini
            > anyway.
            > I knew only one female blacksmith in my life. My opinion is,
            that what you
            > saw were the spouses of.
            > Generally speaking, the craftsmanship was not reserved for
            nobles. They were
            > rather exceptions than a rule.
            > Vladimir
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Janet Kozlay
            > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 2:05 PM
            > Subject: [S-R] Other social groups
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Let's not forget that there are other social groups besides
            the farmers,
            > such as the craftsmen and the nobles. In the Latin records you
            run across
            > lanio (butcher), molitor (miller), and fabri (smith), who
            served their
            > communities but were not farmers. Yesterday for the first time
            I ran
            > across
            > entries for women (godmothers) who were designated as
            lanionissa,
            > molitorissa, and fabrissa. Do these signify that they were
            married to
            > their
            > respective butchers, millers, and smiths, or could there
            actually have
            > been
            > "butcheresses," "milleresses," and female smiths? I suspect
            the former,
            > but
            > I'd like another opinion. I would also like an opinion on
            whether in your
            > experiences most of these specialties were filled by the minor
            nobility. I
            > seem to have evidence that this was so, at least in the areas
            I have been
            > searching.
            >
            > Janet
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
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