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Re: [S-R] 1600-1700s Hung Census &Gazetteer - Request for help deciphering!

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  • James McGrath
    Thank you, Peter! Now that I ve found the term, there are a few sites online that help explain the social structure in general terms. Any suggestions on what
    Message 1 of 26 , Mar 2, 2005
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      Thank you, Peter! Now that I've found the term, there
      are a few sites online that help explain the social
      structure in general terms.

      Any suggestions on what the column with the '3' in it
      indicates would still be welcome...

      James

      --- Peter Nagy <nagy@...> wrote:

      >
      > James,
      >
      > Inq. is an acronym for inquilinus,
      >
      > the interpretation of this term depends on the
      > context, but in principle
      > it is a farmer, land tenant.
      >
      > Peter
      >
      > --
      > Cilistovska 20
      > 931 01 Samorin
      > Slovak Republic
      >
      > tel: +421 31 560 0641
      > mobile: +421 905 490 552
      > http://www.centroconsult.sk
      >
      >
      >

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    • Jan Ammann
      Hi Bill........ Before I even get started I have to say I got a good laugh out of your statement to me about searching for the village Jobahaza . You gave me
      Message 2 of 26 , Mar 2, 2005
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        Hi Bill........

        Before I even get started I have to say I got a good laugh out of your statement to me about searching for the village "Jobahaza". You gave me some examples and then you said, "if you are really desperate" ........well, I have to say that I thought everybody who searches in this part of Eastern Europe stays in "a desperate state".........at least, I do..........smile.........grin.

        You mentioned that if any of us decided to click on one of the specialized menus instead of a global search in the 1715 or other census we were to pass on our info. So here is mine!

        Well, I attempted one and so will share with the list. On the left side on the drop down menu of the opening page, I selected "on Az 1715-osszeiras". I went to a page with a large blank space on a green field. Here is how I have deciphered the fields/spaces.

        1. B�rhol az adatb�zisban = means "Anywhere in the database"
        2. Helys�g = means "place or locality"
        3. Lipszky-f�le helys�gn�v = means "_____ toward locality". I wasn't able to translate "Lipszky"
        4. 1913-as helys�gn�v = means "1913-as to place/locality"
        5. 1913-as megyebeoszt�s = means "1913 as county arrangement/apportionment"
        6. Mai hivatalos helys�gn�v = means "today's official place"
        7. V�s�rhely = means "market/fair place"
        8. Ad�z�k - means "impose taxes/rates"

        Kifejez�sek kapcsolata a mez�n bel�l: means and this is a guess of sorts: "Expression/word that have relation with the fields". I have to spoof myself here because at first I thought it meant meadows.......smile......but I believe it means "as fields in a computer space".

        a mez�k k�z�tt: means "fields inbetween"

        The three choices are: "es" which means "and" ~ "vagy" which means "or" ~ "nem" means "no/not".

        Now, if you click on the arrows which are placed at the end of each field, the right side of the screen has long........long.........long lists which are slow to go through. There is a long list of numbers in different digits.......then it starts with "a" and seems to be a variety of words....names of people...nouns....even some verbs. It is a cumbersome list. I have never made it through the entire list. Oh, and of course, all of this is at the website: www.arcanum.hu/mol.

        And the word at the end: "Kereses" means "Look"........

        I would definitely not call this a tutorial.........just a "naive guide" to what may be in this page. So hopefully, someone a lot smarter than me will take this to a higher level. Again, thanks to this list which is always friendly and helpful.

        Cheers,
        Jan






        Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:
        Great news! Several 17th and 18th Century Magyar Census images and/or
        transcriptions are now available online.
        � The 1715 Census is now available online at no fee via Arcanum - These are
        actual scans of all the individual pages and transcriptions of the original
        census document. The transcriptions are computer-searchable. Thanks to
        Peter Nagy for the "heads up." This may be a limited time offer!
        � 1623, 1631, 1691 Ubarial Census transcriptions are also online available
        at no fee via Arcanum. These are transcriptions ONLY. The transcriptions
        are computer-searchable. This may be also be a limited time offer!

        I would very much like to hear how they work for you. Happy Hunting!
        http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/index.htm#new

        ______________
        Bill Tarkulich





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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Peter Nagy
        Jan, I am fluent in Hungarian and I intend to draft a tutorial, but this week I am very busy. You and Bill Tarkulich have done a good start. Only few comments:
        Message 3 of 26 , Mar 3, 2005
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          Jan,

          I am fluent in Hungarian and I intend to draft a tutorial, but this week
          I am very busy. You and Bill Tarkulich have done a good start. Only few
          comments:
          The Lipszky is a reference to Lipszky gazetteer.

          You wrote:

          >Now, if you click on the arrows which are placed at the end of each field, the right side of the screen has long........long.........long lists which are slow to go through. There is a long list of numbers in different digits.......then it starts with "a" and seems to be a variety of words....names of people...nouns....even some verbs. It is a cumbersome list. I have never made it through the entire list.
          >
          This list is very helpful, but its use is very tricky. Here is na example:
          You wish to search the name of the taxpayer, there is a field with name
          "Adózók". You have to click to the green arrow located right for the
          field. After some time (depending on the server workload and speed of
          your connection) a new list on the right page of the screen will be
          loaded "Az Adózók mezőben előforduló szavak" - here are shown all the
          surname variations included in the database. You have now to move the
          cursor to any item in this list. You can move through the list using
          navigation keys of your keyboard, but also you can do quick jumps to the
          desired letter by hitting the alphabetic keys. Pressing "t" you will
          jump to the surname "Taák". Pressing the second key "u" you will
          undertake next jump to "tuba". etc. After you have selected your
          surname, you have double click on the selected name and this will be
          pasted to the surname field. There is now way back, thus you must start
          new search pressing the green arrow button. The similar procedure is to
          be used for remaining fields.

          Let me please know, if it was understandable.

          Peter

          --
          Cilistovska 20
          931 01 Samorin
          Slovak Republic

          tel: +421 31 560 0641
          mobile: +421 905 490 552
          http://www.centroconsult.sk
        • Bill Tarkulich
          Thank you Jan! - If you don t mind, I ll post your remarks on the web page. We ll go back someday and edit it, after everyone s initial investigations settle
          Message 4 of 26 , Mar 3, 2005
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            Thank you Jan! - If you don't mind, I'll post your remarks on the web page.
            We'll go back someday and edit it, after everyone's initial investigations
            settle down.


            ______________
            Bill Tarkulich




            -----Original Message-----
            From: Jan Ammann [mailto:janammann@...]
            Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 10:10 PM
            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [S-R] 1600-1700s Hung Census



            Hi Bill........

            Before I even get started I have to say I got a good laugh out of your
            statement to me about searching for the village "Jobahaza". You gave me
            some examples and then you said, "if you are really desperate" ........well,
            I have to say that I thought everybody who searches in this part of Eastern
            Europe stays in "a desperate state".........at least, I
            do..........smile.........grin.

            You mentioned that if any of us decided to click on one of the specialized
            menus instead of a global search in the 1715 or other census we were to pass
            on our info. So here is mine!

            Well, I attempted one and so will share with the list. On the left side on
            the drop down menu of the opening page, I selected "on Az 1715-osszeiras".
            I went to a page with a large blank space on a green field. Here is how I
            have deciphered the fields/spaces.

            1. Bárhol az adatbázisban = means "Anywhere in the database" 2. Helység =
            means "place or locality" 3. Lipszky-féle helységnév = means "_____ toward
            locality". I wasn't able to translate "Lipszky" 4. 1913-as helységnév =
            means "1913-as to place/locality" 5. 1913-as megyebeosztás = means "1913 as
            county arrangement/apportionment" 6. Mai hivatalos helységnév = means
            "today's official place" 7. Vásárhely = means "market/fair place" 8.
            Adózók - means "impose taxes/rates"

            Kifejezések kapcsolata a mezõn belül: means and this is a guess of sorts:
            "Expression/word that have relation with the fields". I have to spoof
            myself here because at first I thought it meant meadows.......smile......but
            I believe it means "as fields in a computer space".

            a mezõk között: means "fields inbetween"

            The three choices are: "es" which means "and" ~ "vagy" which means "or" ~
            "nem" means "no/not".

            Now, if you click on the arrows which are placed at the end of each field,
            the right side of the screen has long........long.........long lists which
            are slow to go through. There is a long list of numbers in different
            digits.......then it starts with "a" and seems to be a variety of
            words....names of people...nouns....even some verbs. It is a cumbersome
            list. I have never made it through the entire list. Oh, and of course, all
            of this is at the website: www.arcanum.hu/mol.

            And the word at the end: "Kereses" means "Look"........

            I would definitely not call this a tutorial.........just a "naive guide" to
            what may be in this page. So hopefully, someone a lot smarter than me will
            take this to a higher level. Again, thanks to this list which is always
            friendly and helpful.

            Cheers,
            Jan






            Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:
            Great news! Several 17th and 18th Century Magyar Census images and/or
            transcriptions are now available online.
            • The 1715 Census is now available online at no fee via Arcanum - These are
            actual scans of all the individual pages and transcriptions of the original
            census document. The transcriptions are computer-searchable. Thanks to
            Peter Nagy for the "heads up." This may be a limited time offer! • 1623,
            1631, 1691 Ubarial Census transcriptions are also online available
            at no fee via Arcanum. These are transcriptions ONLY. The transcriptions
            are computer-searchable. This may be also be a limited time offer!

            I would very much like to hear how they work for you. Happy Hunting!
            http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/index.htm#new

            ______________
            Bill Tarkulich





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          • Jan Ammann
            Hello Bill.... You are most welcome. It s just a little payback for all the help this list has given me. You are very brave to post this on your web page!
            Message 5 of 26 , Mar 3, 2005
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              Hello Bill....

              You are most welcome. It's just a little "payback" for all the help this list has given me. You are very brave to post this on your web page! I have done some work on the other specialized menus on arcanum and will post them if and when I finish them. It is always a struggle with Hungarian language.

              Cheers..............Jan



              Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:
              Thank you Jan! - If you don't mind, I'll post your remarks on the web page.
              We'll go back someday and edit it, after everyone's initial investigations
              settle down.


              ______________
              Bill Tarkulich




              -----Original Message-----
              From: Jan Ammann [mailto:janammann@...]
              Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 10:10 PM
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [S-R] 1600-1700s Hung Census



              Hi Bill........

              Before I even get started I have to say I got a good laugh out of your
              statement to me about searching for the village "Jobahaza". You gave me
              some examples and then you said, "if you are really desperate" ........well,
              I have to say that I thought everybody who searches in this part of Eastern
              Europe stays in "a desperate state".........at least, I
              do..........smile.........grin.

              You mentioned that if any of us decided to click on one of the specialized
              menus instead of a global search in the 1715 or other census we were to pass
              on our info. So here is mine!

              Well, I attempted one and so will share with the list. On the left side on
              the drop down menu of the opening page, I selected "on Az 1715-osszeiras".
              I went to a page with a large blank space on a green field. Here is how I
              have deciphered the fields/spaces.

              1. B�rhol az adatb�zisban = means "Anywhere in the database" 2. Helys�g =
              means "place or locality" 3. Lipszky-f�le helys�gn�v = means "_____ toward
              locality". I wasn't able to translate "Lipszky" 4. 1913-as helys�gn�v =
              means "1913-as to place/locality" 5. 1913-as megyebeoszt�s = means "1913 as
              county arrangement/apportionment" 6. Mai hivatalos helys�gn�v = means
              "today's official place" 7. V�s�rhely = means "market/fair place" 8.
              Ad�z�k - means "impose taxes/rates"

              Kifejez�sek kapcsolata a mez�n bel�l: means and this is a guess of sorts:
              "Expression/word that have relation with the fields". I have to spoof
              myself here because at first I thought it meant meadows.......smile......but
              I believe it means "as fields in a computer space".

              a mez�k k�z�tt: means "fields inbetween"

              The three choices are: "es" which means "and" ~ "vagy" which means "or" ~
              "nem" means "no/not".

              Now, if you click on the arrows which are placed at the end of each field,
              the right side of the screen has long........long.........long lists which
              are slow to go through. There is a long list of numbers in different
              digits.......then it starts with "a" and seems to be a variety of
              words....names of people...nouns....even some verbs. It is a cumbersome
              list. I have never made it through the entire list. Oh, and of course, all
              of this is at the website: www.arcanum.hu/mol.

              And the word at the end: "Kereses" means "Look"........

              I would definitely not call this a tutorial.........just a "naive guide" to
              what may be in this page. So hopefully, someone a lot smarter than me will
              take this to a higher level. Again, thanks to this list which is always
              friendly and helpful.

              Cheers,
              Jan






              Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:
              Great news! Several 17th and 18th Century Magyar Census images and/or
              transcriptions are now available online.
              � The 1715 Census is now available online at no fee via Arcanum - These are
              actual scans of all the individual pages and transcriptions of the original
              census document. The transcriptions are computer-searchable. Thanks to
              Peter Nagy for the "heads up." This may be a limited time offer! � 1623,
              1631, 1691 Ubarial Census transcriptions are also online available
              at no fee via Arcanum. These are transcriptions ONLY. The transcriptions
              are computer-searchable. This may be also be a limited time offer!

              I would very much like to hear how they work for you. Happy Hunting!
              http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/index.htm#new

              ______________
              Bill Tarkulich





              To unsubscribe from this group, go to
              http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Jan Ammann
              Hello Peter........Thanks for the Lipszky word. I thought it was a proper name but was not sure. And yes...........thank you very much........I do understand
              Message 6 of 26 , Mar 3, 2005
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                Hello Peter........Thanks for the Lipszky word. I thought it was a proper name but was not sure. And yes...........thank you very much........I do understand your instructions about the long, long, long list on the right side of the screen. Your instructions will help me "literally fly through it" and that is very helpful. It is too bad you do not live in Texas as I would probably lock you in a room and give you all the "Hungarian stuff" I have yet to try and translate!! And you would be happy as I am a good cook!!! Just kidding, of course!

                Thank you again for your very precise and understandable way to "navigate the long, long, long lists!" And I am sure we all look forward to your tutorial.

                Cheers, Jan


                Peter Nagy wrote...

                Jan,

                I am fluent in Hungarian and I intend to draft a tutorial, but this week
                I am very busy. You and Bill Tarkulich have done a good start. Only few
                comments:
                The Lipszky is a reference to Lipszky gazetteer.

                You wrote:

                >Now, if you click on the arrows which are placed at the end of each field, the right side of the screen has long........long.........long lists which are slow to go through. There is a long list of numbers in different digits.......then it starts with "a" and seems to be a variety of words....names of people...nouns....even some verbs. It is a cumbersome list. I have never made it through the entire list.
                >
                This list is very helpful, but its use is very tricky. Here is na example:
                You wish to search the name of the taxpayer, there is a field with name
                "Ad�z�k". You have to click to the green arrow located right for the
                field. After some time (depending on the server workload and speed of
                your connection) a new list on the right page of the screen will be
                loaded "Az Ad�z�k mez�ben el�fordul� szavak" - here are shown all the
                surname variations included in the database. You have now to move the
                cursor to any item in this list. You can move through the list using
                navigation keys of your keyboard, but also you can do quick jumps to the
                desired letter by hitting the alphabetic keys. Pressing "t" you will
                jump to the surname "Ta�k". Pressing the second key "u" you will
                undertake next jump to "tuba". etc. After you have selected your
                surname, you have double click on the selected name and this will be
                pasted to the surname field. There is now way back, thus you must start
                new search pressing the green arrow button. The similar procedure is to
                be used for remaining fields.

                Let me please know, if it was understandable.

                Peter

                --
                Cilistovska 20
                931 01 Samorin
                Slovak Republic

                tel: +421 31 560 0641
                mobile: +421 905 490 552
                http://www.centroconsult.sk





                To unsubscribe from this group, go to http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                Yahoo! Groups Links










                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Peter Nagy
                Dear Jan, Bill and others, I invite you to comment the draft of 1715 census guide. It is not yet linked to other centroconsult pages. The URL is:
                Message 7 of 26 , Mar 3, 2005
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                  Dear Jan, Bill and others,

                  I invite you to comment the draft of 1715 census guide. It is not yet
                  linked to other centroconsult pages. The URL is:
                  http://www.centroconsult.sk/genealogy/census.html

                  Peter

                  --
                  Cilistovska 20
                  931 01 Samorin
                  Slovak Republic

                  tel: +421 31 560 0641
                  mobile: +421 905 490 552
                  http://www.centroconsult.sk
                • Jan Ammann
                  Hello Peter...... First of all, the page is very well constructed. The way you set up the area/space that needs to filled in with your family data is
                  Message 8 of 26 , Mar 3, 2005
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                    Hello Peter......

                    First of all, the page is very well constructed. The way you set up the area/space that needs to filled in with your family data is excellent. By placing the English words alongside the Hungarian words you have created an "easy and almost fool-proof" method of finding your information. I consider this the "best part of the whole page".

                    Then, by telling us how to navigate the long, long lists, you have helped us manage our time more effectively by not having to "needlessly search". You make it look very easy. And the instructions for jumping from alphabet to alphabet is excellent.

                    And, of course, the examples are the "icing on the cake".........everyone should be able to now go through this section of Arcanum with speed and accuracy. And the showing of the villages where the Kozlia name occured just reinforces your method of presentation. You have done it all very effectively yet with simple and uncluttered language. (Aside to Janet.....any connection??)

                    I feel very honored that my name is at the bottom of the page alongside Bill Tarkulich. And that you used my very rudimentary tutorial is itself very gratifying to me. You guys are the "pros".........Thank you for letting an amateur like myself in!!

                    Cheers and many thanks!

                    Jan


                    Peter Nagy <nagy@...> wrote:
                    Dear Jan, Bill and others,

                    I invite you to comment the draft of 1715 census guide. It is not yet
                    linked to other centroconsult pages. The URL is:
                    http://www.centroconsult.sk/genealogy/census.html

                    Peter

                    --
                    Cilistovska 20
                    931 01 Samorin
                    Slovak Republic

                    tel: +421 31 560 0641
                    mobile: +421 905 490 552
                    http://www.centroconsult.sk




                    To unsubscribe from this group, go to http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com


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                    ---------------------------------
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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • bbadzio@look.ca
                    I wonder if anyone knows whether there are any plans (by Arcanum or others) to put the 1767-1773 Urbarium census on-line. Thank you, Bohdana
                    Message 9 of 26 , Mar 6, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I wonder if anyone knows whether there are any plans (by Arcanum or
                      others) to put the 1767-1773 Urbarium census on-line.

                      Thank you,

                      Bohdana
                    • Paula
                      I too have found 4 villages in Békés megye with possible family memebers. The easiest way I found was to do a surname search, with and without the umlauts.
                      Message 10 of 26 , Mar 6, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I too have found 4 villages in Békés megye with possible family
                        memebers. The easiest way I found was to do a surname search, with
                        and without the umlauts. It will not only bring up the 1715 census
                        but the ubarial records down below. Not that I can read them. I did
                        print my info off and also the actual written pages so I have
                        something to go on later.

                        paula



                        --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <cnovotni@f...> wrote:
                        > Thanks, Bill, for posting the site for the Hungarian Census, etc.
                        I have
                        > been playing around for more than an hour and found both my
                        paternal and
                        > maternal grandparents' surnames in the area where they lived,
                        probably the
                        > same village for that matter. I had genealogical research done on
                        both of
                        > these families and got back as far as the late 1700s. Don't know
                        where I
                        > will go next with what I've found. Maybe I will look for the other
                        side of
                        > their families. I love the old handwriting - kind of reminds me of
                        colonial
                        > American records I've researched. Anyway - grea fun.
                        > Carol
                      • Bill Tarkulich
                        I see 1773 in there. Do a search on 1773 ______________ Bill Tarkulich ... From: bbadzio@look.ca [mailto:bbadzio@look.ca] Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 3:38
                        Message 11 of 26 , Mar 6, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I see 1773 in there. Do a search on "1773"

                          ______________
                          Bill Tarkulich




                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: bbadzio@... [mailto:bbadzio@...]
                          Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 3:38 AM
                          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [S-R] 1773 Urbarium on-line?



                          I wonder if anyone knows whether there are any plans (by Arcanum or
                          others) to put the 1767-1773 Urbarium census on-line.

                          Thank you,

                          Bohdana



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                        • bbadzio@look.ca
                          Thank you, Bill, for your suggestion. I don t believe, however, that I see what I m looking for. Just to clarify what Urbarium I mean, it is the one that is
                          Message 12 of 26 , Mar 6, 2005
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                            Thank you, Bill, for your suggestion.

                            I don't believe, however, that I see what I'm looking for. Just to clarify
                            what Urbarium I mean, it is the one that is found in FHL catalog:

                            *********************************
                            Title: Urbéri tabellák, 1767-1773
                            Authors: Magyarország. Helytartótanács (Main Author)

                            Notes: Az eredeti iratok mikrofilmre vétele Budapesten a Magyar Országos
                            Levéltárban történt.
                            --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            Feudal land tenancy census records of Hungary, the so-called "Urbarium" or
                            "Urbéri tabellák", a document that defines the goods and services that a
                            serf was obligated to give to the feudal lord. Includes names of
                            landowners and serfs. Arranged by counties, and within the counties by
                            villages in alphabetical order. Includes primarily the years 1767-1773,
                            with some entries and the index covering the years 1723-1848. Some areas
                            that were in Hungary when these records were kept are now in Slovakia,
                            Romania and Ukraine
                            *************************

                            When I searched Arcanum for "1773", 142 hits came up. Part of the titles
                            looked similar to this:

                            **Urbaria et Conscriptiones/IRREGESTRATA/UC 4/UC 4 : 17**,

                            and the other part - to this:

                            **A középkori Magyarország levéltári forrásainak adatbázisa/U szekció:
                            DIPLOMATIKAI FÉNYKÉPGYÛJTEMÉNY/Magyarország/Vas Megyei Levéltár/DF
                            262095**

                            Just to make sure that this Urbarium was not "hidden" (meaning that it
                            could not be browsed, only searched), I searched the whole database for
                            the surnames I had just recorded from the microfilm copy of the Urbarium.
                            There were many I did not find.

                            Of course, none of what I just said proves that the Urbarium I'm looking
                            for is not on the Arcanum site, but I have my doubts that it is there...

                            Will be grateful for any further information.

                            Bohdana




                            >
                            > I see 1773 in there. Do a search on "1773"
                            >
                            > ______________
                            > Bill Tarkulich
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: bbadzio@... [mailto:bbadzio@...]
                            > Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 3:38 AM
                            > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: [S-R] 1773 Urbarium on-line?
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > I wonder if anyone knows whether there are any plans (by Arcanum or
                            > others) to put the 1767-1773 Urbarium census on-line.
                            >
                            > Thank you,
                            >
                            > Bohdana
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