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RE: [S-R] 1600-1700s Hung Census &Gazetteer - Request for help de ciphering!

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  • Armata, Joseph R. (JArmata)
    Do you have a link to the page you were looking at? Joe ... From: James McGrath [mailto:jamesfrankmcgrath@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 9:27 PM To:
    Message 1 of 12 , Mar 2, 2005
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      Do you have a link to the page you were looking at?

      Joe

      -----Original Message-----
      From: James McGrath [mailto:jamesfrankmcgrath@...]
      Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 9:27 PM
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [S-R] 1600-1700s Hung Census &Gazetteer - Request for help
      deciphering!



      Hi everyone! I did a search and found someone listed
      in the 1715 taxation records that looks likely to be
      an ancestor of mine. You can find the records in
      question by searching under Antolik. He comes up
      (Marczin Antolik) in the listing for the village of
      Kolbach, which is where my ancestors were from.

      Even though my colleague in the next office is a
      classicist, I still am having difficulty deciphering
      the document, both because of handwriting and because
      Lating from the 18th century is different from that of
      ancient Rome.

      So, can anyone help me figure out what it is that this
      individual had 3 of, and what the 3 letters after his
      name indicate? I am presuming it doesn't mean he was
      an engineer! :)

      Thanks for any help you can give me!

      James



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    • James McGrath
      I ve just uploaded them to the shared group photos (in the album Antolik in Kolbach ). The person who is probably my ancestor is about half way down page 2.
      Message 2 of 12 , Mar 2, 2005
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        I've just uploaded them to the shared group photos (in
        the album 'Antolik in Kolbach'). The person who is
        probably my ancestor is about half way down page 2.
        His name is followed by 'Inq', as are several other
        names. He had 3 of something - probably agricultural
        workers in his employ or living on his land. I'd also
        be interested if anyone can figure out what the size
        and population of the village were in this period.

        Thanks!

        James


        --- "Armata, Joseph R. (JArmata)"
        <JArmata@...> wrote:

        >
        > Do you have a link to the page you were looking at?
        >
        > Joe
        >





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      • Caye Caswick
        James ... is that the Kolbach that is now Brezina southeast of Kosice and southwest of Trebisov? If so, that s where my ancestors are also from. Small world
        Message 3 of 12 , Mar 2, 2005
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          James ... is that the Kolbach that is now Brezina
          southeast of Kosice and southwest of Trebisov? If so,
          that's where my ancestors are also from.

          Small world if that's the same town!


          Caye



          --- "Armata, Joseph R. (JArmata)"
          <JArmata@...> wrote:

          > Do you have a link to the page you were looking at?
          >
          > Joe
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: James McGrath
          > [mailto:jamesfrankmcgrath@...]
          > Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 9:27 PM
          > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [S-R] 1600-1700s Hung Census &Gazetteer -
          > Request for help
          > deciphering!
          >
          >
          >
          > Hi everyone! I did a search and found someone listed
          > in the 1715 taxation records that looks likely to be
          > an ancestor of mine. You can find the records in
          > question by searching under Antolik. He comes up
          > (Marczin Antolik) in the listing for the village of
          > Kolbach, which is where my ancestors were from.
          >
          > Even though my colleague in the next office is a
          > classicist, I still am having difficulty deciphering
          > the document, both because of handwriting and
          > because
          > Lating from the 18th century is different from that
          > of
          > ancient Rome.
          >
          > So, can anyone help me figure out what it is that
          > this
          > individual had 3 of, and what the 3 letters after
          > his
          > name indicate? I am presuming it doesn't mean he was
          > an engineer! :)
          >
          > Thanks for any help you can give me!
          >
          > James
          >
          >
          >
          > __________________________________________________
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          >





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        • Caye Caswick
          Wow, that handwriting is pretty clear -- I m sure someone on this group will be able to help you. I tried it the other day and the handwriting on the one I
          Message 4 of 12 , Mar 2, 2005
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            Wow, that handwriting is pretty clear -- I'm sure
            someone on this group will be able to help you. I
            tried it the other day and the handwriting on the one
            I used as a test was so horrible I could barely make
            out any of the lettering. Lucky you James!



            Caye



            --- James McGrath <jamesfrankmcgrath@...> wrote:

            > I've just uploaded them to the shared group photos
            > (in
            > the album 'Antolik in Kolbach'). The person who is
            > probably my ancestor is about half way down page 2.
            > His name is followed by 'Inq', as are several other
            > names. He had 3 of something - probably agricultural
            > workers in his employ or living on his land. I'd
            > also
            > be interested if anyone can figure out what the size
            > and population of the village were in this period.
            >
            > Thanks!
            >
            > James
            >
            >
            > --- "Armata, Joseph R. (JArmata)"
            > <JArmata@...> wrote:
            >
            > >
            > > Do you have a link to the page you were looking
            > at?
            > >
            > > Joe
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > __________________________________
            > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
            > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
            > http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/
            >





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          • Armata, Joseph R. (JArmata)
            Can you post a closeup of the words you re asking about? The file is too small to see well - I think I ve heard that the picture might show up large for the
            Message 5 of 12 , Mar 2, 2005
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              Can you post a closeup of the words you're asking about? The file is
              too small to see well - I think I've heard that the picture might show
              up large for the person who posted it, but for others it shows up
              small.

              Joe


              -----Original Message-----
              From: James McGrath [mailto:jamesfrankmcgrath@...]
              Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 10:06 AM
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [S-R] 1600-1700s Hung Census &Gazetteer - Request for help de
              ciphering!



              I've just uploaded them to the shared group photos (in
              the album 'Antolik in Kolbach'). The person who is
              probably my ancestor is about half way down page 2.
              His name is followed by 'Inq', as are several other
              names. He had 3 of something - probably agricultural
              workers in his employ or living on his land. I'd also
              be interested if anyone can figure out what the size
              and population of the village were in this period.

              Thanks!

              James


              --- "Armata, Joseph R. (JArmata)"
              <JArmata@...> wrote:

              >
              > Do you have a link to the page you were looking at?
              >
              > Joe
              >





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              Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
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            • Jan Ammann
              Hello Joe.........Its easier to do it this way. Go to www.arcanum.hu/mol...... When it comes up, there will be the words Az 1715 evi orszagos osszeiras in
              Message 6 of 12 , Mar 2, 2005
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                Hello Joe.........Its easier to do it this way. Go to www.arcanum.hu/mol......
                When it comes up, there will be the words "Az 1715 evi orszagos osszeiras" in the middle of your screen.........above the red and yellow picture. Click on it. Then a new menu will come up on the left side........Go to Kereses: And type in ..........Kolbach......and hit mehet. Will bring up a screen in the center with either 2 entries or 13 entries. There are two entries that will start out with "Az 1715...." Click on that........It will bring up the screen showing this village name.........There are numbers in red.....click on 205.......Then the large antique yellow/gold page....original of the census will come up. It is quite large and you can see everything fine.

                Cheers, Jan

                "Armata, Joseph R. (JArmata)" <JArmata@...> wrote:
                Can you post a closeup of the words you're asking about? The file is
                too small to see well - I think I've heard that the picture might show
                up large for the person who posted it, but for others it shows up
                small.

                Joe


                -----Original Message-----
                From: James McGrath [mailto:jamesfrankmcgrath@...]
                Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 10:06 AM
                To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [S-R] 1600-1700s Hung Census &Gazetteer - Request for help de
                ciphering!



                I've just uploaded them to the shared group photos (in
                the album 'Antolik in Kolbach'). The person who is
                probably my ancestor is about half way down page 2.
                His name is followed by 'Inq', as are several other
                names. He had 3 of something - probably agricultural
                workers in his employ or living on his land. I'd also
                be interested if anyone can figure out what the size
                and population of the village were in this period.

                Thanks!

                James


                --- "Armata, Joseph R. (JArmata)"
                <JArmata@...> wrote:

                >
                > Do you have a link to the page you were looking at?
                >
                > Joe
                >





                __________________________________
                Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
                Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
                http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/


                ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                --------------------~-->
                DonorsChoose. A simple way to provide underprivileged children
                resources
                often lacking in public schools. Fund a student project in NYC/NC
                today!
                http://us.click.yahoo.com/T_B0zD/.WnJAA/a8ILAA/FvNolB/TM
                --------------------------------------------------------------------~-
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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Vladimir Bohinc
                Dear James, Inq.stands for Inquilinus. There were basically three social layers in a village. Colonus = farmer with a house, land and horses Inquilinus =
                Message 7 of 12 , Mar 2, 2005
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                  Dear James,
                  Inq.stands for Inquilinus.
                  There were basically three social layers in a village.
                  Colonus = farmer with a house, land and horses
                  Inquilinus = farmer with house, but no land and no horses
                  Subinquilinus = no house, no land, no horses, just bare hands to live from.
                  The last group were beggars (mendicus) or Gypsies ( zingarus) or other Vagabundi, who only sporadically appear in church records, but not in urbarial censuses. Of course, there were also Jews, who are also not in the Urbarial censuses.
                  Since a subinquilinus did not have any property, which was the criteria to be treated as the member of the community, they were not treated as members of community and as such, they were also moving around in search for work. They lived as tenants either with Coloni or Inquilini or with the Landlord himself.
                  Also worth to mention is the fact, that the sole real owner of everything was the Landlord ( or the Church).
                  Best regards,
                  Vladimir Bohinc
                  www.konekta.sk

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: James McGrath
                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 4:05 PM
                  Subject: [S-R] 1600-1700s Hung Census &Gazetteer - Request for help de ciphering!


                  I've just uploaded them to the shared group photos (in
                  the album 'Antolik in Kolbach'). The person who is
                  probably my ancestor is about half way down page 2.
                  His name is followed by 'Inq', as are several other
                  names. He had 3 of something - probably agricultural
                  workers in his employ or living on his land. I'd also
                  be interested if anyone can figure out what the size
                  and population of the village were in this period.

                  Thanks!

                  James


                  --- "Armata, Joseph R. (JArmata)"
                  <JArmata@...> wrote:

                  >
                  > Do you have a link to the page you were looking at?
                  >
                  > Joe
                  >





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                  Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
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                • Bill Tarkulich
                  James & All, Vladimir wrote a very nice piece on Feudal structure a while ago. I republished it here http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/social_status.htm There
                  Message 8 of 12 , Mar 3, 2005
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                    James & All,
                    Vladimir wrote a very nice piece on Feudal structure a while ago. I
                    republished it here
                    http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/social_status.htm

                    There are some other good references at the bottom of this page
                    http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/CensusMain.htm

                    ______________
                    Bill Tarkulich




                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: James McGrath [mailto:jamesfrankmcgrath@...]
                    Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 10:06 AM
                    To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [S-R] 1600-1700s Hung Census &Gazetteer - Request for help de
                    ciphering!



                    I've just uploaded them to the shared group photos (in
                    the album 'Antolik in Kolbach'). The person who is
                    probably my ancestor is about half way down page 2.
                    His name is followed by 'Inq', as are several other
                    names. He had 3 of something - probably agricultural
                    workers in his employ or living on his land. I'd also
                    be interested if anyone can figure out what the size
                    and population of the village were in this period.

                    Thanks!

                    James


                    --- "Armata, Joseph R. (JArmata)" <JArmata@...> wrote:

                    >
                    > Do you have a link to the page you were looking at?
                    >
                    > Joe
                    >





                    __________________________________
                    Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
                    Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
                    http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/



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                    http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
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                  • James McGrath
                    On everything I ve seen, the present name of the Kolbach I am referring to is Studenec. It is not far from Spisske Podhradie. I don t think this is the same
                    Message 9 of 12 , Mar 3, 2005
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                      On everything I've seen, the present name of the
                      Kolbach I am referring to is Studenec. It is not far
                      from Spisske Podhradie. I don't think this is the same
                      place you are referring to, although I'd be happy to
                      be wrong about this! :)

                      James


                      --- Caye Caswick <ccaswick@...> wrote:

                      >
                      >
                      > James ... is that the Kolbach that is now Brezina
                      > southeast of Kosice and southwest of Trebisov? If
                      > so,
                      > that's where my ancestors are also from.
                      >
                      > Small world if that's the same town!
                      >
                      >
                      > Caye
                      >
                      >





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                    • Barbara/Bill
                      I m a big dummy.....I ve been going to this site and am just totalled confused...... I ve tried putting the names of the villages that I know my ancestors
                      Message 10 of 12 , Mar 3, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I'm a big dummy.....I've been going to this site and am just totalled
                        confused......

                        I've tried putting the names of the villages that I know my ancestors lived
                        in....and pages come up with various collections of words...but I have no
                        idea what to do next....I see arrows at the top right to go forward and
                        back - forward and back to what? I don't know where I am now!

                        And over on the left that large yellow column has tons of "things" to click
                        on but when I try one I still don't know what I'm seeing.........I'm
                        sooooooo sorry to be so dense.

                        I'm interested in people in Kinces (near Dvorianky) and in Jozsefvolgy and
                        in Velke Berezne.

                        Can someone kick me in the right direction......??//

                        Thanx
                        Barbara - Uprooting family trees

                        "Pray for AMERICA"
                      • Peter Nagy
                        Barbara, ... There are plenty of databases, referring to different documents stored in National Archives - this would be an exercise for professional
                        Message 11 of 12 , Mar 3, 2005
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                          Barbara,

                          you wrote:

                          > I'm a big dummy.....I've been going to this site and am just totalled
                          > confused......
                          >
                          > I've tried putting the names of the villages that I know my ancestors
                          > lived
                          > in....and pages come up with various collections of words...but I have no
                          > idea what to do next....I see arrows at the top right to go forward and
                          > back - forward and back to what? I don't know where I am now!

                          There are plenty of databases, referring to different documents stored
                          in National Archives - this would be an exercise for professional
                          researchers. I would strongly recommend to search only the 1715 taxpayer
                          census. Do not enter the yellow menu in the left. It is enough to follow
                          the instruction presented in this forum or to use my guide published here
                          http://www.centroconsult.sk/genealogy/census.html

                          First exercise is to locate the towns, you should know either official
                          name in 1913, or present official name, or name according the Lipszky
                          gazetteer, or name valid in 1715.

                          You are looking for villages Kinces (near Dvorianky) and in Jozsefvolgy
                          and in Velke Berezne
                          Kincses, now Chincius is in Romania, in what county was your Kinces
                          Józsefvolgy, former Zemplen county, now Juskova Vola is in Slovakia
                          Nagyberezna, former Ung county, now Velikij Bereznij is in Ukraine

                          I checked the town Jozsefvolgy using long list for 1913 town names.
                          There was one match:
                          -------------------------------------------
                          Town: Juszko Volya, Vólya, Juszko-, Józsefvölgy, Zemplén, Juskova Voľa,
                          SK (all alternative spellings)

                          Adózók neve (taxpayers): Scultetus Lukas Sziszál; Franciscus barna;
                          Georgius Sziszák; Alexender Kozanski; Alexender Sziszák

                          Oldalszám: 9, 340, - hypelink to the scanned pages.
                          ----------------------------------------------

                          Let me please know, if the instructions on the page
                          http://www.centroconsult.sk/genealogy/census.html

                          were useful for you.

                          Happy hunting

                          Peter

                          --
                          Cilistovska 20
                          931 01 Samorin
                          Slovak Republic

                          tel: +421 31 560 0641
                          mobile: +421 905 490 552
                          http://www.centroconsult.sk
                        • Janet Kozlay
                          Dear Peter, I could not believe my eyes. I am speechless. How is it possible that just by chance you chose to feature in your instructions the very names and
                          Message 12 of 12 , Mar 4, 2005
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Dear Peter,

                            I could not believe my eyes. I am speechless. How is it possible that just
                            by chance you chose to feature in your instructions the very names and
                            places I have been hunting for nearly four years--Kozla, Kozlai, Kozik, and
                            Lovinobana (for which I have not been able to locate church records). This
                            has proven to be a particularly elusive family. I thought I had become
                            fairly proficient at searching the Arcanum.hu/mol databases, but I was
                            always baffled by the green screen, and generally ignored it. Now, with your
                            very clear instructions and translations of the terms, I am ready to give it
                            another shot.

                            I have also recently acquired the Konyvtar IV DVD from Arcanum, which has a
                            very large number of databases relating to Hungarian nobility, including but
                            certainly not limited to Nagy Iván, Kempelen Béla, and Siebmacher's
                            Wappenbuch. Some of your instructions also apply to those databases, which I
                            have been learning as I played with the DVD. If anyone is interested, I
                            would be happy to search out names and places as long as I don't get
                            overwhelmed with requests. Many of us were extremely unhappy when Arcanum
                            removed the Nagy and Kempelen databases from their free website, which is
                            why I broke down and ordered the DVD. I had no idea that there were numerous
                            other databases that also were rich sources of information.

                            I cannot thank you enough for taking the time to provide this worksheet.

                            Janet


                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: centroco@... [mailto:centroco@...] On Behalf Of Peter
                            Nagy
                            Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 2:17 AM
                            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [S-R] 1600-1700s Hung Census &Gazetteer - Request for help de
                            ciphering!


                            Barbara,

                            you wrote:

                            > I'm a big dummy.....I've been going to this site and am just totalled
                            > confused......
                            >
                            > I've tried putting the names of the villages that I know my ancestors
                            > lived
                            > in....and pages come up with various collections of words...but I have no
                            > idea what to do next....I see arrows at the top right to go forward and
                            > back - forward and back to what? I don't know where I am now!

                            There are plenty of databases, referring to different documents stored
                            in National Archives - this would be an exercise for professional
                            researchers. I would strongly recommend to search only the 1715 taxpayer
                            census. Do not enter the yellow menu in the left. It is enough to follow
                            the instruction presented in this forum or to use my guide published here
                            http://www.centroconsult.sk/genealogy/census.html

                            First exercise is to locate the towns, you should know either official
                            name in 1913, or present official name, or name according the Lipszky
                            gazetteer, or name valid in 1715.

                            You are looking for villages Kinces (near Dvorianky) and in Jozsefvolgy
                            and in Velke Berezne
                            Kincses, now Chincius is in Romania, in what county was your Kinces
                            Józsefvolgy, former Zemplen county, now Juskova Vola is in Slovakia
                            Nagyberezna, former Ung county, now Velikij Bereznij is in Ukraine

                            I checked the town Jozsefvolgy using long list for 1913 town names.
                            There was one match:
                            -------------------------------------------
                            Town: Juszko Volya, Vólya, Juszko-, Józsefvölgy, Zemplén, Juskova Voľa,
                            SK (all alternative spellings)

                            Adózók neve (taxpayers): Scultetus Lukas Sziszál; Franciscus barna;
                            Georgius Sziszák; Alexender Kozanski; Alexender Sziszák

                            Oldalszám: 9, 340, - hypelink to the scanned pages.
                            ----------------------------------------------

                            Let me please know, if the instructions on the page
                            http://www.centroconsult.sk/genealogy/census.html

                            were useful for you.

                            Happy hunting

                            Peter

                            --
                            Cilistovska 20
                            931 01 Samorin
                            Slovak Republic

                            tel: +421 31 560 0641
                            mobile: +421 905 490 552
                            http://www.centroconsult.sk





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