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Two questions

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  • Andrea Vangor
    Dear list, 1. Does anyone have any experience with the book Vlastivedný Slovník Obcí na Slovensku as a source of information on ancestral villages? 2.
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 23, 2000
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      Dear list,

      1. Does anyone have any experience with the book "Vlastivedn� Slovn�k Obc�
      na Slovensku" as a source of information on ancestral villages?

      2. Has anyone found Romany ancestors or relatives in his or her
      genealogical search, or I am perhaps the first? :-)

      Andrea
    • Jim Honeychuck
      On the second question, somebody here or on another list asked about the name Cigane. I answered off line to suggest that it sounded like the word for gypsy
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 24, 2000
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        On the second question, somebody here or on another list asked about the
        name Cigane. I answered off line to suggest that it sounded like the word
        for gypsy in several European languages.

        Jim Honeychuck
        Researching Hanicak, Urban, Puhalla

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Andrea Vangor <drav@...>
        To: Slovak Roots <SLOVAK-ROOTS@onelist.com>
        Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 2:58 AM
        Subject: [SLOVAK-ROOTS] Two questions


        > From: "Andrea Vangor" <drav@...>
        >
        > Dear list,
        >
        > 1. Does anyone have any experience with the book "Vlastivedn� Slovn�k
        Obc�
        > na Slovensku" as a source of information on ancestral villages?
        >
        > 2. Has anyone found Romany ancestors or relatives in his or her
        > genealogical search, or I am perhaps the first? :-)
        >
        > Andrea
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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      • Andrea Vangor
        Yes, I had forgotten that surname -- very likely. Another one that occurs to me is Hudak, which means itinerant musician, a trade pursued by many Rom.
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 24, 2000
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          Yes, I had forgotten that surname -- very likely. Another one that occurs
          to me is Hudak, which means itinerant musician, a trade pursued by many Rom.
          According to some sources I perused recently, Gypsies in Hungary in the 18th
          century were at various times forbidden to wear their traditional clothing,
          ply their usual trades, speak their own language, keep horses and wagons,
          play their traditional music, or to play musical instruments during regular
          working hours. All these edicts were intended to forcibly assimilate them
          into the ranks of serfdom, and met with varying degrees of success. But
          even the Romany talk about settled Rom who have lost their traditions, so
          this policy probably worked on at least some of them.

          One side of the serf economy we tend to forget is that it represented the
          economic power base of local government, in the person of the nobleman who
          owned them. One reason to abolish serfdom was to enhance the power of the
          central government at the expense of the local nobles. So the latter were
          powerfully motivated to attract new serfs, and reputedly gave the "New
          Hungarians" (referring to settled Gypsies) their own cattle and other
          furnishings to reward them. They tended to occupy dwellings on the outside
          of the village when they did settle. Given their strong traditional
          concerns for ritual cleanliness and avoidance of contamination by contact
          with non-Romany, you would think that the settled Gypsies would prefer to
          marry each other rather than outsiders. I wonder if anyone in the world has
          done research on this -- it's so hard to do historical work on the Rom,
          because they have neither a written nor an oral history.


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Jim Honeychuck <jimhoney@...>
          To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@onelist.com>
          Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 3:56 AM
          Subject: Re: [SLOVAK-ROOTS] Two questions


          > From: "Jim Honeychuck" <jimhoney@...>
          >
          > On the second question, somebody here or on another list asked about the
          > name Cigane. I answered off line to suggest that it sounded like the word
          > for gypsy in several European languages.
          >
          > Jim Honeychuck
          > Researching Hanicak, Urban, Puhalla
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Andrea Vangor <drav@...>
          > To: Slovak Roots <SLOVAK-ROOTS@onelist.com>
          > Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 2:58 AM
          > Subject: [SLOVAK-ROOTS] Two questions
          >
          >
          > > From: "Andrea Vangor" <drav@...>
          > >
          > > Dear list,
          > >
          > > 1. Does anyone have any experience with the book "Vlastivedn� Slovn�k
          > Obc�
          > > na Slovensku" as a source of information on ancestral villages?
          > >
          > > 2. Has anyone found Romany ancestors or relatives in his or her
          > > genealogical search, or I am perhaps the first? :-)
          > >
          > > Andrea
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > > FREE ADVICE FROM REAL PEOPLE! Xpertsite has thousands of experts who
          > > are willing to answer your questions for FREE. Go to Xpertsite today
          and
          > > put your mind to rest.
          > > http://click.egroups.com/1/1404/5/_/_/_/951379162/
          > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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        • mjesko@webtv.net
          I know of a man who was doing doctorial research thru the University of Ljubljana in Slovenia on the Rom living in KOSOVO. He was very interested in the Rom
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 24, 2000
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            I know of a man who was doing doctorial research thru the University of
            Ljubljana in Slovenia on the Rom living in KOSOVO. He was very
            interested in the Rom living here in this country. I do know that he
            finished his paper and passed but don't think he ever published a final
            book.

            I seem to remember a book about the Rom done by the National Geographic
            Society about 20 yrs ago or longer. Will have to look thru my books and
            see what I find.

            Do vi

            "TRADITION is the JOYFUL memory of a people!"
          • Andrea Vangor
            Thanks -- meanwhile, there is a surprising amount on the web, beginning with a page at www.patrin.org I think. I also found a lot of material on the Hungarian
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 24, 2000
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              Thanks -- meanwhile, there is a surprising amount on the web, beginning with
              a page at www.patrin.org I think. I also found a lot of material on the
              Hungarian web sites.

              There is also Isabel Fonseca's controversial but powerful recent book, Bury
              Me Standing.

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <mjesko@...>
              To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@onelist.com>
              Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 3:46 PM
              Subject: Re: [SLOVAK-ROOTS] Two questions


              > From: mjesko@...
              >
              > I know of a man who was doing doctorial research thru the University of
              > Ljubljana in Slovenia on the Rom living in KOSOVO. He was very
              > interested in the Rom living here in this country. I do know that he
              > finished his paper and passed but don't think he ever published a final
              > book.
              >
              > I seem to remember a book about the Rom done by the National Geographic
              > Society about 20 yrs ago or longer. Will have to look thru my books and
              > see what I find.
              >
              > Do vi
              >
              > "TRADITION is the JOYFUL memory of a people!"
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              > Get one email address for all your friends!
              > Start a free email group on eGroups!
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            • Raymond Doperak
              Andrea, I am researching the LDS film for Inac^ovce, Slovakia. This particular film contains Greek Catholic church records. For the year 1847 I came across a
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 26, 2000
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                Andrea,
                I am researching the LDS film for Inac^ovce, Slovakia. This
                particular film contains Greek Catholic church records. For the year 1847 I
                came across a death record for a 2-yr old named Barbola Adam, daughter of
                Mihaly Adam & Anna Magyar (GK). In the column where you'd normally see
                zseller, gazda,etc. is written Czi(n?)gany. First time I've noticed this.
                I've seen many entries for the family "Adam", and this is a first. I'm
                guessing maybe the little girl was adopted from a gypsy family????

                Separately, I also found an entry for a Barbola Fortuna, a name
                which seems odd amidst all the surnames ending in -ko, -nyik, -yak, etc.
                But there was no "cigany" association.

                Ray Doperak, Philly
                -------------------------

                At 11:58 PM 2/23/00 -0800, you wrote:
                >From: "Andrea Vangor" <drav@...>
                >
                >2. Has anyone found Romany ancestors or relatives in his or her
                >genealogical search, or I am perhaps the first? :-)
                >
                >Andrea
                >
                >
                >
              • helenezx@aol.com
                In a message dated 2/26/0 11:54:16 PM, rdoperak@snip.net writes:
                Message 7 of 9 , Feb 26, 2000
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                  In a message dated 2/26/0 11:54:16 PM, rdoperak@... writes:

                  << Czi(n?)gany. First time I've noticed this.
                  I've seen many entries for the family "Adam", and this is a first. I'm
                  guessing maybe the little girl was adopted from a gypsy family???? >>

                  Maybe ciziny (sp) meant foreigner or stranger. That's what I was called when
                  I first went there and I found it an odd word.

                  Fortuna - ? How about all the names ending in "ula" - wonderful Andrew
                  Fabula who did so much for Slovak genealogical research - the first to help
                  people with phone book searches there - was fascinated by the names ending in
                  ula - he felt they went back to old Latin or Romanian names in some cases.

                  helene
                • Andrea Vangor
                  I just browsed through a book titled something like Gypsies in Russia and Eastern Europe, by David Crowe. He said that the surname Cigane or Cigany goes back
                  Message 8 of 9 , Feb 26, 2000
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                    I just browsed through a book titled something like Gypsies in Russia and
                    Eastern Europe, by David Crowe. He said that the surname Cigane or Cigany
                    goes back to early settlements of Romany people, I think after the 30 Years'
                    War. He had a lot of information about the fate of Slovak Gypsies during
                    WWII -- according to Crowe, the Tiso government protected them and most
                    survived the war. Some were involved in the uprising of 1944.


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: <helenezx@...>
                    To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@onelist.com>
                    Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 5:36 PM
                    Subject: Re: [SLOVAK-ROOTS] Two questions


                    > From: helenezx@...
                    >
                    >
                    > In a message dated 2/26/0 11:54:16 PM, rdoperak@... writes:
                    >
                    > << Czi(n?)gany. First time I've noticed this.
                    > I've seen many entries for the family "Adam", and this is a first. I'm
                    > guessing maybe the little girl was adopted from a gypsy family???? >>
                    >
                    > Maybe ciziny (sp) meant foreigner or stranger. That's what I was called
                    when
                    > I first went there and I found it an odd word.
                    >
                    > Fortuna - ? How about all the names ending in "ula" - wonderful Andrew
                    > Fabula who did so much for Slovak genealogical research - the first to
                    help
                    > people with phone book searches there - was fascinated by the names ending
                    in
                    > ula - he felt they went back to old Latin or Romanian names in some cases.
                    >
                    > helene
                    >
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                  • Andrea Vangor
                    How fascinating. I don t know what was going on in 1847, but at different times there were virtual kidnappings of Romany children who were then placed in
                    Message 9 of 9 , Feb 27, 2000
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                      How fascinating. I don't know what was going on in 1847, but at different
                      times there were virtual kidnappings of Romany children who were then placed
                      in non-Romany homes, presumably including some Slovak homes. According to
                      what I have read, a lot of these children later ran away to rejoin their
                      birth families.

                      The name Fortuna sounds like it might be Italian or Romanian, coming from
                      some Romance language -- there certainly were people in Slovakia from all
                      over Europe. I have wondered if the surname Petrilla, found in Rank, was of
                      such origin.


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Raymond Doperak <rdoperak@...>
                      To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@onelist.com>
                      Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 2:50 PM
                      Subject: Re: [SLOVAK-ROOTS] Two questions


                      > From: Raymond Doperak <rdoperak@...>
                      >
                      > Andrea,
                      > I am researching the LDS film for Inac^ovce, Slovakia. This
                      > particular film contains Greek Catholic church records. For the year 1847
                      I
                      > came across a death record for a 2-yr old named Barbola Adam, daughter of
                      > Mihaly Adam & Anna Magyar (GK). In the column where you'd normally see
                      > zseller, gazda,etc. is written Czi(n?)gany. First time I've noticed this.
                      > I've seen many entries for the family "Adam", and this is a first. I'm
                      > guessing maybe the little girl was adopted from a gypsy family????
                      >
                      > Separately, I also found an entry for a Barbola Fortuna, a name
                      > which seems odd amidst all the surnames ending in -ko, -nyik, -yak, etc.
                      > But there was no "cigany" association.
                      >
                      > Ray Doperak, Philly
                      > -------------------------
                      >
                      > At 11:58 PM 2/23/00 -0800, you wrote:
                      > >From: "Andrea Vangor" <drav@...>
                      > >
                      > >2. Has anyone found Romany ancestors or relatives in his or her
                      > >genealogical search, or I am perhaps the first? :-)
                      > >
                      > >Andrea
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      > GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates
                      > as low as 0.0% Intro APR and no hidden fees.
                      > Apply NOW!
                      > http://click.egroups.com/1/967/5/_/545880/_/951605355/
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                      >
                      >
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