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Re: [S-R] Re: Poprad area (German settlement)

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  • nhasior@aol.com
    In a message dated 12/5/04 11:51:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... my aunt, born 1915 in the United States of immigrant parents, would define herself as
    Message 1 of 19 , Dec 6, 2004
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      In a message dated 12/5/04 11:51:43 PM Eastern Standard Time,
      WHew536674@... writes:

      > had magyarized the name to Kristoffy. I would love to know
      > why

      my aunt, born 1915 in the United States of immigrant parents, would define
      herself as Slovak, yet her cousin, born in Slovakia and coming to the States in
      1951, would define himself as Hungarian. he said that to be Hungarian was
      to be of better heritage. their fathers were brothers and their mothers came
      from the exact same village.
      my brother, growing up, would tell everyone that our family was German. I
      told everyone that we are Polish and Slovak. we had the exact same parents. he
      got his story from our father. i got my story from my mother.
      Noreen


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • nhasior@aol.com
      In a message dated 12/5/04 8:47:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... Joyce, The Hungarians imposed their language in the schools and would give a hard time to
      Message 2 of 19 , Dec 6, 2004
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        In a message dated 12/5/04 8:47:01 PM Eastern Standard Time,
        WHew536674@... writes:

        > So her claim of being Hungarian was based
        > on the fact that she lived there but was not really Magyar.
        >
        >
        Joyce,
        The Hungarians imposed their language in the schools and would give a hard
        time to anyone who spoke Slovak or taught their children the Slovak language.
        they basically tried to ethnically cleanse the area and make it all Hungarian.

        Noreen


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Bill Tarkulich
        When I first began to delve into the nationality-versus-ethnicity issue, I found a couple of references which I come back to for a grounding on a regular
        Message 3 of 19 , Dec 6, 2004
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          When I first began to delve into the nationality-versus-ethnicity issue, I
          found a couple
          of references which I come back to for a grounding on a regular basis:

          Demographic Maps, including ethnic distribution, circa 1900:
          http://www.bogardi.com/gen/g100.htm

          A definition of the word "ethnic"
          http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ethnic

          Bill Tarkulich

          -----Original Message-----
          From: WHew536674@... [mailto:WHew536674@...]
          Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 11:51 PM
          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Poprad area (German settlement)



          In a message dated 12/5/2004 11:24:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,
          rmat@... writes:
          > It sounds as
          > if your grandmother was quite happy as Hungarian. There were cross-
          > overs for political, economic or simply cultural grounds.

          You hit the nail on the head. It wasn't until I started to research church
          records that I found out that the family name had been Kristofik, which is a

          Slovak name. They had magyarized the name to Kristoffy. I would love to
          know
          why because they were the only Kristofiks from that town that did that. As
          a
          result of that and the fact that Hungarian was their main language us first
          generation Americans grew up thinking that we were Magyar. Nothing like
          doing
          research to rewrite family history. Makes me think of the movie, Sunshine,
          I
          think was the name of it. The story was about 3 generations of a Jewish
          family
          in Budapest and how they had been magyarized and then in the end of the
          movie
          the grandson goes back to the original family name. Very good movie.

          Joyce


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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        • Janet Kozlay
          Those maps are utterly fascinating and indeed very helpful in putting family histories into context. Thanks for a wonderful contribution. Janet ... From: Bill
          Message 4 of 19 , Dec 6, 2004
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            Those maps are utterly fascinating and indeed very helpful in putting family
            histories into context. Thanks for a wonderful contribution.
            Janet


            -----Original Message-----
            From: Bill Tarkulich [mailto:bill.tarkulich@...]
            Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 5:40 AM
            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [S-R] Re: Poprad area (German settlement)


            When I first began to delve into the nationality-versus-ethnicity issue, I
            found a couple
            of references which I come back to for a grounding on a regular basis:

            Demographic Maps, including ethnic distribution, circa 1900:
            http://www.bogardi.com/gen/g100.htm

            A definition of the word "ethnic"
            http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ethnic

            Bill Tarkulich
          • krisstrot@aol.com
            ... I always considered my Grandmother German. When she came over in 1910, she listed her ethnicity as German and her place of birth as Hungary. When
            Message 5 of 19 , Dec 6, 2004
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              In a message dated 12/5/2004 8:45:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, WHew536674@... writes:

              >...So her claim of being Hungarian was based
              >on the fact that she lived there but was not really Magyar.
              >
              >Joyce

              I always considered my Grandmother "German." When she came over in 1910, she listed her ethnicity as "German" and her place of birth as "Hungary." When HER mother came for a visit in 1913, she listed her ethnicity as "Magyar" and place of birth as "Hungary." (I always thought she was of German origin, her maiden name being Weber.) She was traveling with her 16 year old daughter (my grandmother's sister), who also listed her ethnicity as "Magyar." I suppose she followed what her mother had said two lines above, while my grandmother, traveling on her own at age 24, listed her ethnicity as "German." Interesting. My sister and I often talk about the huge "jigsaw puzzle" this genealogy research truly is, and I'm glad to have a "partner in crime" to help keep my eyes open to ALL possibilities and to not be so LITERAL when reading ship and census records.
              Kris
            • Bill Tarkulich
              I agree wholeheartedly. To truly understand the puzzle, you must take into consideration the political, ethnic, religious, language, geographical and
              Message 6 of 19 , Dec 6, 2004
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                I agree wholeheartedly. To truly understand the puzzle, you must take into consideration the political, ethnic, religious, language, geographical and historical perspectives for BOTH America and the village in question on:
                1. The date of reference
                2. The date the reference was given
                3. The present day

                Then you must also understand the agenda of the person providing the information: did they have an axe to grind? Were they ignorant? indoctrinated? mistaken? Where did their information come from: family, government, etcetera? Some people just became frustrated with questions by Americans who didn't understand and chose to "Simplify" their origin. Others simply didn't really care what you called them as long as they got what they wanted.

                The only way to make sense is to put it into the perspective from which it was given. As we all know, a reference to "Hungary" in 1910 has vastly different meaning than in 2004. Terms such as "Ruthenian" are obsolete.

                "Hungarian" could mean the nationality, ethnicity and/or language. We tend to try and simplify things in Europe by generalizing within a country: Spanish citizens are ethnic Spanish, speak Spanish language and come from Spain.

                Immigration agents often used the spoken tongue of an immigrant to identify their ethnicity. Better than nothing I suppose, but always room for big errors.

                When I was in my ancestral village, I brought a tape recorder and brought back a half-hour of conversation. I played it to my Aunt, daughter of immigrants from the same village. While she could understand it, she had enough education to be able to recognize that there was a bit of Polish, Ukraine, Slovak and Magyar (Hungarian) all mixed in. The indigenous language taught to her by her parents appears to have morphed in the 100 years since their emigration.

                Whatever you do, assume nothing, postulate, but always corroborate your data before drawing conclusions.

                Bill

                >
                > From: krisstrot@...
                > Date: 2004/12/06 Mon AM 10:56:43 EST
                > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Poprad area (German settlement)
                >
                >
                > In a message dated 12/5/2004 8:45:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, WHew536674@... writes:
                >
                > >...So her claim of being Hungarian was based
                > >on the fact that she lived there but was not really Magyar.
                > >
                > >Joyce
                >
                > I always considered my Grandmother "German." When she came over in 1910, she listed her ethnicity as "German" and her place of birth as "Hungary." When HER mother came for a visit in 1913, she listed her ethnicity as "Magyar" and place of birth as "Hungary." (I always thought she was of German origin, her maiden name being Weber.) She was traveling with her 16 year old daughter (my grandmother's sister), who also listed her ethnicity as "Magyar." I suppose she followed what her mother had said two lines above, while my grandmother, traveling on her own at age 24, listed her ethnicity as "German." Interesting. My sister and I often talk about the huge "jigsaw puzzle" this genealogy research truly is, and I'm glad to have a "partner in crime" to help keep my eyes open to ALL possibilities and to not be so LITERAL when reading ship and census records.
                > Kris
                >
                >
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, go to http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
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