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[S-R] Re: Poprad area (German settlement)

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  • amiak27
    With the medley and mix of nationalities in Austria-Hungary it is amazing to see how people did chose an ethnic identity. It sounds as if your grandmother was
    Message 1 of 19 , Dec 5, 2004
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      With the medley and mix of nationalities in Austria-Hungary it is
      amazing to see how people did chose an ethnic identity. It sounds as
      if your grandmother was quite happy as Hungarian. There were cross-
      overs for political, economic or simply cultural grounds. Now we do
      have what might be called a Madjarone/Magyarone married into my
      family. A Slovak wanna-be Hungarian. The family name is
      suspiciously Slavic, but the family insists they are Hungarian.

      I always wondered why the German speaking citizens identified
      as 'German' around last century and not 'Austrian'. It appears that
      even this degree of assimilation was not happening - or we do not
      currently read about it. This is where browsing some contemporary
      documents from past periods would be handy!

      Ron

      PS You can read the book "A History of Slovakia" by Stanislav
      Kirschbaum, and look up a bit of information on his interesting
      father as well. Then there is Schuster as president of modern
      Slovakia...

      --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, WHew536674@c... wrote:
      > I found it interesting when I traced my great grandmother's family
      back to
      > the 1720s in Slovakia. Their name was Gettler, a German name. Even
      though they
      > had lived in Hungary/Slovakia, for at least 180 years when they
      immigrated
      > here in 1889 on the ship manifest they entered their nationality as
      Austrian.
      > Looking at their census records they listed German as their mother
      tongue. The
      > Gettlers married into Slovak families who entered their nationality
      as
      > Hungarian/Slovak and mother tongue as either Hungarian or Slovak.
      Despite
      > generations of intermarriages each seemed to keep their German,
      Hungarian or Slovak
      > roots, so to speak, despite the mix of it all.
      > My grandmother spoke Hungarian, German, Slovak, and even some
      Polish I
      > recently found out, and despite her "German mother" claimed to be
      Hungarian, but
      > ethnically speaking, was more Slovak. So her claim of being
      Hungarian was based
      > on the fact that she lived there but was not really Magyar.
      >
      > Joyce
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • WHew536674@cs.com
      In a message dated 12/5/2004 11:24:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... You hit the nail on the head. It wasn t until I started to research church records that I
      Message 2 of 19 , Dec 5, 2004
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        In a message dated 12/5/2004 11:24:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,
        rmat@... writes:
        > It sounds as
        > if your grandmother was quite happy as Hungarian. There were cross-
        > overs for political, economic or simply cultural grounds.

        You hit the nail on the head. It wasn't until I started to research church
        records that I found out that the family name had been Kristofik, which is a
        Slovak name. They had magyarized the name to Kristoffy. I would love to know
        why because they were the only Kristofiks from that town that did that. As a
        result of that and the fact that Hungarian was their main language us first
        generation Americans grew up thinking that we were Magyar. Nothing like doing
        research to rewrite family history. Makes me think of the movie, Sunshine, I
        think was the name of it. The story was about 3 generations of a Jewish family
        in Budapest and how they had been magyarized and then in the end of the movie
        the grandson goes back to the original family name. Very good movie.

        Joyce


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • nhasior@aol.com
        In a message dated 12/5/04 11:51:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... my aunt, born 1915 in the United States of immigrant parents, would define herself as
        Message 3 of 19 , Dec 6, 2004
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          In a message dated 12/5/04 11:51:43 PM Eastern Standard Time,
          WHew536674@... writes:

          > had magyarized the name to Kristoffy. I would love to know
          > why

          my aunt, born 1915 in the United States of immigrant parents, would define
          herself as Slovak, yet her cousin, born in Slovakia and coming to the States in
          1951, would define himself as Hungarian. he said that to be Hungarian was
          to be of better heritage. their fathers were brothers and their mothers came
          from the exact same village.
          my brother, growing up, would tell everyone that our family was German. I
          told everyone that we are Polish and Slovak. we had the exact same parents. he
          got his story from our father. i got my story from my mother.
          Noreen


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • nhasior@aol.com
          In a message dated 12/5/04 8:47:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... Joyce, The Hungarians imposed their language in the schools and would give a hard time to
          Message 4 of 19 , Dec 6, 2004
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            In a message dated 12/5/04 8:47:01 PM Eastern Standard Time,
            WHew536674@... writes:

            > So her claim of being Hungarian was based
            > on the fact that she lived there but was not really Magyar.
            >
            >
            Joyce,
            The Hungarians imposed their language in the schools and would give a hard
            time to anyone who spoke Slovak or taught their children the Slovak language.
            they basically tried to ethnically cleanse the area and make it all Hungarian.

            Noreen


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Bill Tarkulich
            When I first began to delve into the nationality-versus-ethnicity issue, I found a couple of references which I come back to for a grounding on a regular
            Message 5 of 19 , Dec 6, 2004
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              When I first began to delve into the nationality-versus-ethnicity issue, I
              found a couple
              of references which I come back to for a grounding on a regular basis:

              Demographic Maps, including ethnic distribution, circa 1900:
              http://www.bogardi.com/gen/g100.htm

              A definition of the word "ethnic"
              http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ethnic

              Bill Tarkulich

              -----Original Message-----
              From: WHew536674@... [mailto:WHew536674@...]
              Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 11:51 PM
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Poprad area (German settlement)



              In a message dated 12/5/2004 11:24:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,
              rmat@... writes:
              > It sounds as
              > if your grandmother was quite happy as Hungarian. There were cross-
              > overs for political, economic or simply cultural grounds.

              You hit the nail on the head. It wasn't until I started to research church
              records that I found out that the family name had been Kristofik, which is a

              Slovak name. They had magyarized the name to Kristoffy. I would love to
              know
              why because they were the only Kristofiks from that town that did that. As
              a
              result of that and the fact that Hungarian was their main language us first
              generation Americans grew up thinking that we were Magyar. Nothing like
              doing
              research to rewrite family history. Makes me think of the movie, Sunshine,
              I
              think was the name of it. The story was about 3 generations of a Jewish
              family
              in Budapest and how they had been magyarized and then in the end of the
              movie
              the grandson goes back to the original family name. Very good movie.

              Joyce


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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            • Janet Kozlay
              Those maps are utterly fascinating and indeed very helpful in putting family histories into context. Thanks for a wonderful contribution. Janet ... From: Bill
              Message 6 of 19 , Dec 6, 2004
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                Those maps are utterly fascinating and indeed very helpful in putting family
                histories into context. Thanks for a wonderful contribution.
                Janet


                -----Original Message-----
                From: Bill Tarkulich [mailto:bill.tarkulich@...]
                Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 5:40 AM
                To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [S-R] Re: Poprad area (German settlement)


                When I first began to delve into the nationality-versus-ethnicity issue, I
                found a couple
                of references which I come back to for a grounding on a regular basis:

                Demographic Maps, including ethnic distribution, circa 1900:
                http://www.bogardi.com/gen/g100.htm

                A definition of the word "ethnic"
                http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ethnic

                Bill Tarkulich
              • krisstrot@aol.com
                ... I always considered my Grandmother German. When she came over in 1910, she listed her ethnicity as German and her place of birth as Hungary. When
                Message 7 of 19 , Dec 6, 2004
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                  In a message dated 12/5/2004 8:45:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, WHew536674@... writes:

                  >...So her claim of being Hungarian was based
                  >on the fact that she lived there but was not really Magyar.
                  >
                  >Joyce

                  I always considered my Grandmother "German." When she came over in 1910, she listed her ethnicity as "German" and her place of birth as "Hungary." When HER mother came for a visit in 1913, she listed her ethnicity as "Magyar" and place of birth as "Hungary." (I always thought she was of German origin, her maiden name being Weber.) She was traveling with her 16 year old daughter (my grandmother's sister), who also listed her ethnicity as "Magyar." I suppose she followed what her mother had said two lines above, while my grandmother, traveling on her own at age 24, listed her ethnicity as "German." Interesting. My sister and I often talk about the huge "jigsaw puzzle" this genealogy research truly is, and I'm glad to have a "partner in crime" to help keep my eyes open to ALL possibilities and to not be so LITERAL when reading ship and census records.
                  Kris
                • Bill Tarkulich
                  I agree wholeheartedly. To truly understand the puzzle, you must take into consideration the political, ethnic, religious, language, geographical and
                  Message 8 of 19 , Dec 6, 2004
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                    I agree wholeheartedly. To truly understand the puzzle, you must take into consideration the political, ethnic, religious, language, geographical and historical perspectives for BOTH America and the village in question on:
                    1. The date of reference
                    2. The date the reference was given
                    3. The present day

                    Then you must also understand the agenda of the person providing the information: did they have an axe to grind? Were they ignorant? indoctrinated? mistaken? Where did their information come from: family, government, etcetera? Some people just became frustrated with questions by Americans who didn't understand and chose to "Simplify" their origin. Others simply didn't really care what you called them as long as they got what they wanted.

                    The only way to make sense is to put it into the perspective from which it was given. As we all know, a reference to "Hungary" in 1910 has vastly different meaning than in 2004. Terms such as "Ruthenian" are obsolete.

                    "Hungarian" could mean the nationality, ethnicity and/or language. We tend to try and simplify things in Europe by generalizing within a country: Spanish citizens are ethnic Spanish, speak Spanish language and come from Spain.

                    Immigration agents often used the spoken tongue of an immigrant to identify their ethnicity. Better than nothing I suppose, but always room for big errors.

                    When I was in my ancestral village, I brought a tape recorder and brought back a half-hour of conversation. I played it to my Aunt, daughter of immigrants from the same village. While she could understand it, she had enough education to be able to recognize that there was a bit of Polish, Ukraine, Slovak and Magyar (Hungarian) all mixed in. The indigenous language taught to her by her parents appears to have morphed in the 100 years since their emigration.

                    Whatever you do, assume nothing, postulate, but always corroborate your data before drawing conclusions.

                    Bill

                    >
                    > From: krisstrot@...
                    > Date: 2004/12/06 Mon AM 10:56:43 EST
                    > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Poprad area (German settlement)
                    >
                    >
                    > In a message dated 12/5/2004 8:45:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, WHew536674@... writes:
                    >
                    > >...So her claim of being Hungarian was based
                    > >on the fact that she lived there but was not really Magyar.
                    > >
                    > >Joyce
                    >
                    > I always considered my Grandmother "German." When she came over in 1910, she listed her ethnicity as "German" and her place of birth as "Hungary." When HER mother came for a visit in 1913, she listed her ethnicity as "Magyar" and place of birth as "Hungary." (I always thought she was of German origin, her maiden name being Weber.) She was traveling with her 16 year old daughter (my grandmother's sister), who also listed her ethnicity as "Magyar." I suppose she followed what her mother had said two lines above, while my grandmother, traveling on her own at age 24, listed her ethnicity as "German." Interesting. My sister and I often talk about the huge "jigsaw puzzle" this genealogy research truly is, and I'm glad to have a "partner in crime" to help keep my eyes open to ALL possibilities and to not be so LITERAL when reading ship and census records.
                    > Kris
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, go to http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
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