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Re: [S-R] Re: Poprad area (German settlement)

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  • Thomas Reimer
    The Mongols came in 1240-1241. Germans lived in the Zips already then, since the 12th century, notably in Eisdorf (Zakovce). After the Mongol devastation, many
    Message 1 of 19 , Dec 4, 2004
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      The Mongols came in 1240-1241. Germans lived in the Zips already then, since
      the 12th century, notably in Eisdorf (Zakovce). After the Mongol
      devastation, many more were invited to come by the Kings of Hungary.

      Thomas


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: <nhasior@...>
      To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 4:24 PM
      Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Poprad area (German settlement)


      >
      > Ron and Kris,
      > this is all very interesting. If the Mongols ravaged Szepes County in the
      > mid-1300's, could it not have been long after that that the German
      settlers
      > came. It was around the mid to late 1600's that Lubicke Kupele first had
      mention
      > of the sulfur water spring in written history, so it is possible that the
      > settler's came sometime between. The sulfur spring in Lubicke Kupele was
      first
      > discovered by a shepherd in the nearby fields and it was not for some time
      that
      > the spring lay untouched before it was developed and followed by a spa
      town
      > with a hotel and restaurant and all the amenities.
      > I am going to look up Meissen on a map to see where exactly that town in
      > Germany is. Also Thuringer and Hessen.
      > Noreen
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
      http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
      SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
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      >
    • nhasior@aol.com
      ... Thomas, Kris and Ron, If Germans were already living in Zips (Szepes) in 1240, that is well over 750 years ago. After living there for all that time,
      Message 2 of 19 , Dec 4, 2004
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        > The Mongols came in 1240-1241. Germans lived in the Zips already


        Thomas, Kris and Ron,
        If Germans were already living in Zips (Szepes) in 1240, that is well over
        750 years ago. After living there for all that time, wouldn't the Germans
        living in Szepes be considered to be Slovak ? how long would they have remained
        German?
        the military Wild Geese of Ireland lived all over the world. they fought for
        France, fought in the Revolutionary War in America, fought in wars in South
        America and often settled down in the country where they were fighting and they
        stayed on. are they still Irish after all that time? or having settled for
        all those years in other countries, do they lose their ethnicity????
        I never considered my three grandparents to be anything other than Slovak and
        my one grandfather to be Polish. now, I am slowly seeing the concept that if
        their family came from another country hundreds of years before, then they
        were ethnicaly something else.
        Noreen



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Thomas Reimer
        Slovak and German are used here to describe their ethnicity, not their present citizenship. The descendants of a local German who married into a Slovak village
        Message 3 of 19 , Dec 4, 2004
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          Slovak and German are used here to describe their ethnicity, not their
          present citizenship.

          The descendants of a local German who married into a Slovak village became
          Slovaks, and vice-versa. But ethnically, Slovaks, Germans, Ruthenes, Magyars
          (ethnic Hungarians), formed their own groups, with their own language and
          culture. Politically, they were all Hungarian subjects, anyway, till 1918,
          and only in the last 70 years had the Magyar elite tried to assimilate them.

          Thomas

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: <nhasior@...>
          To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 9:27 PM
          Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Poprad area (German settlement)


          >
          >
          >
          > > The Mongols came in 1240-1241. Germans lived in the Zips already
          >
          >
          > Thomas, Kris and Ron,
          > If Germans were already living in Zips (Szepes) in 1240, that is well over
          > 750 years ago. After living there for all that time, wouldn't the Germans
          > living in Szepes be considered to be Slovak ? how long would they have
          remained
          > German?
          > the military Wild Geese of Ireland lived all over the world. they fought
          for
          > France, fought in the Revolutionary War in America, fought in wars in
          South
          > America and often settled down in the country where they were fighting and
          they
          > stayed on. are they still Irish after all that time? or having settled
          for
          > all those years in other countries, do they lose their ethnicity????
          > I never considered my three grandparents to be anything other than Slovak
          and
          > my one grandfather to be Polish. now, I am slowly seeing the concept that
          if
          > their family came from another country hundreds of years before, then they
          > were ethnicaly something else.
          > Noreen
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
          http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
          SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • krisstrot@aol.com
          In a message dated 12/4/2004 8:28:53 PM Central Standard Time, nhasior@aol.com writes: If Germans were already living in Zips (Szepes) in 1240, that is well
          Message 4 of 19 , Dec 4, 2004
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            In a message dated 12/4/2004 8:28:53 PM Central Standard Time,
            nhasior@... writes:
            If Germans were already living in Zips (Szepes) in 1240, that is well over
            750 years ago. After living there for all that time, wouldn't the Germans
            living in Szepes be considered to be Slovak ?
            Noreen,
            My grandfather's family was in the Zips for about 100 years before he was
            born. He always considered himself a German, or as I mentioned before, more
            correctly a Zipser-Saxon. Zipser giving credit to where he was born, and Saxon
            giving credit to his heritage. I know that the man I believe to be my
            grandfather's grandfather (I haven't seen the birth records yet, so can't yet be 100%
            positive) actually denounced his German-ness, saying, in effect, that his
            blood, like the Danube, arose in Germany, but, also like the Danube, it flows
            also in Hungary (meaning Austria-Hungary). I don't know why he made that
            decision, but his son (my grandfather's father) and my grandfather considered
            themselves Germans.
            Some good questions, Noreen; and I am learning along with you. Thanks to
            all who posted or will post on this subject.
            Kris


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • nhasior@aol.com
            Zipser giving credit to where he was born, and Saxon giving credit to his heritage. Slovak and German are used here to describe their ethnicity, not their
            Message 5 of 19 , Dec 5, 2004
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              Zipser giving credit to where he was born, and Saxon
              giving credit to his heritage.
              Slovak and German are used here to describe their ethnicity, not their
              present citizenship

              Thomas and Kris,
              If a person wishes to live in Slovakia as an expatriate based on their
              parents' or their grandparents' being Slovak, this is where the fine line comes in.
              It is presumed that the parents or grandparents were Slovak citizens if they
              were born in what is now Slovakia, but to be an Expatriate based on your
              grandparents' being born in Slovakia and to have the legal privileges of that
              status, you must also show that they were ethnically Slovak.
              This is very important in obtaining the Expatriate Status card. Last night,
              we went to my daughter's home for pizza and I was telling them about Meissen,
              Hessen and Thuringia and all the places that Ron and Kris mentioned. The
              Mongols, mentioned by Thomas, are quite a story. Years ago, I had read Fire In
              the Steppe by Henryk Sienkiewicz and then went on to the other stories in his
              Trilogy. It was historical fiction about the invasions of the Tartars into
              Poland and I wonder if Slovakia was part of this. I do know that the Battle of
              Vienna turned the tide and saved all of Europe from being overrun by invaders.
              Noreen


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • amiak27
              Noreen, About a year ago I went to see Lord of the Rings after listening to a fellow at work talk about all the characters, languages, cultures and exotic
              Message 6 of 19 , Dec 5, 2004
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                Noreen,

                About a year ago I went to see 'Lord of the Rings' after listening to
                a fellow at work talk about all the characters, languages, cultures
                and exotic settings and happenings in the series. I was about 1/4
                into the movie when I said to myself "This has nothing over the
                history of Hungary and the Slovaks". If you take the last 1500 years
                to include the thousand year span of the kingdom, we had all those
                exotic peoples coming and going and some settling and mixing, and
                some moving out, some rampaging through. We have a fascinating
                history of different costumes, values and cultures. You have a lot
                of reading to do if this is interesting to you.

                One of the unique things of the kingdom was the ethnic medley of
                peoples. Some time back one visitor passed through and commented
                that he passed through seven villages and encountered seven different
                peoples, all Hungarian citizens (I want to simply say all
                Hungarians). Many came and remained separate and distinct, and that
                is how a large part of the Zipser Deutsch retained their identity.
                There was the mixing and the adaptation of cultures as Tomas
                mentioned. When you moved into a village you generally adapted that
                dominant culture. Perhaps the Jews in the villages were the
                exception.

                The Germans were known for the mining and small manufacture as well
                as those who farmed, and quite a few of the towns were either
                established or formalized with German business people being granted
                royal town rights and bringing in some of their established codes of
                law to run the town and regulate business - and to keep control of
                trade and the tradesmen & artisans.

                You can begin with some good books supplemented by the internet, but
                again take caution with what you read. There is a lot of
                chauvinistic writing out there with any one ethnic group tending to
                tell its own story, sometimes romanticizing it, most often neglecting
                to mention other ethnic groups also in the same area at the same
                time. It seems worse than the neglect of Indian and black history in
                the USA used to be. Enjoy the quest.

                Now the Mongols romped through in 1241 and two battles measuring the
                Turkish time in Hungary ranged from the battle of Mohacs 1526 until
                with the battle of Vienna 1683. Of course there are transition times
                before and after and lots of politics, some of it like our cold war,
                some of it with changing alliances.

                Enough for now, time to get on with life
                Ron



                --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, nhasior@a... wrote:
                > Zipser giving credit to where he was born, and Saxon
                > giving credit to his heritage.
                > Slovak and German are used here to describe their ethnicity, not
                their
                > present citizenship
                >
                > Thomas and Kris,
                > If a person wishes to live in Slovakia as an expatriate based on
                their
                > parents' or their grandparents' being Slovak, this is where the
                fine line comes in.
                > It is presumed that the parents or grandparents were Slovak
                citizens if they
                > were born in what is now Slovakia, but to be an Expatriate based on
                your
                > grandparents' being born in Slovakia and to have the legal
                privileges of that
                > status, you must also show that they were ethnically Slovak.
                > This is very important in obtaining the Expatriate Status card.
                Last night,
                > we went to my daughter's home for pizza and I was telling them
                about Meissen,
                > Hessen and Thuringia and all the places that Ron and Kris
                mentioned. The
                > Mongols, mentioned by Thomas, are quite a story. Years ago, I had
                read Fire In
                > the Steppe by Henryk Sienkiewicz and then went on to the other
                stories in his
                > Trilogy. It was historical fiction about the invasions of the
                Tartars into
                > Poland and I wonder if Slovakia was part of this. I do know that
                the Battle of
                > Vienna turned the tide and saved all of Europe from being overrun
                by invaders.
                > Noreen
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • nhasior@aol.com
                In a message dated 12/5/04 12:24:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... Ron, you mean we have a life outside of genealogy? :O) enjoy the rest of the weekend. not
                Message 7 of 19 , Dec 5, 2004
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                  In a message dated 12/5/04 12:24:49 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                  rmat@... writes:

                  > Enough for now, time to get on with life
                  >
                  Ron,
                  you mean we have a life outside of genealogy? :O)
                  enjoy the rest of the weekend. not much left.
                  Noreen


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • WHew536674@cs.com
                  In a message dated 12/4/2004 9:39:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... I found it interesting when I traced my great grandmother s family back to the 1720s in
                  Message 8 of 19 , Dec 5, 2004
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                    In a message dated 12/4/2004 9:39:02 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                    treimer@... writes:
                    > The descendants of a local German who married into a Slovak village became
                    > Slovaks, and vice-versa. But ethnically, Slovaks, Germans, Ruthenes, Magyars
                    > (ethnic Hungarians), formed their own groups, with their own language and
                    > culture.

                    I found it interesting when I traced my great grandmother's family back to
                    the 1720s in Slovakia. Their name was Gettler, a German name. Even though they
                    had lived in Hungary/Slovakia, for at least 180 years when they immigrated
                    here in 1889 on the ship manifest they entered their nationality as Austrian.
                    Looking at their census records they listed German as their mother tongue. The
                    Gettlers married into Slovak families who entered their nationality as
                    Hungarian/Slovak and mother tongue as either Hungarian or Slovak. Despite
                    generations of intermarriages each seemed to keep their German, Hungarian or Slovak
                    roots, so to speak, despite the mix of it all.
                    My grandmother spoke Hungarian, German, Slovak, and even some Polish I
                    recently found out, and despite her "German mother" claimed to be Hungarian, but
                    ethnically speaking, was more Slovak. So her claim of being Hungarian was based
                    on the fact that she lived there but was not really Magyar.

                    Joyce


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Janet Kozlay
                    It is an interesting exercise to look at the languages spoken by people from a particular area in Slovakia when they came through Ellis Island. I did that
                    Message 9 of 19 , Dec 5, 2004
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                      It is an interesting exercise to look at the languages spoken by people from
                      a particular area in Slovakia when they came through Ellis Island. I did
                      that recently and of the sample I looked at, 60% spoke Slovak, 30%
                      Hungarian, and 10% German. It is even more interesting when you know that
                      all of these people had the same family name. I think it is probable that if
                      you asked each of them what ethnic group they belonged to, they would answer
                      in terms of their primary language. But ethnicity has very little meaning
                      when there is a high degree of intermarriage. This is especially true, as
                      Joyce pointed out, when intermarriage took place over many generations.
                      Slovakia, too, was a great melting pot.

                      Janet

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: WHew536674@... [mailto:WHew536674@...]
                      Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 8:46 PM
                      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Poprad area (German settlement)


                      In a message dated 12/4/2004 9:39:02 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                      treimer@... writes:
                      > The descendants of a local German who married into a Slovak village became
                      > Slovaks, and vice-versa. But ethnically, Slovaks, Germans, Ruthenes,
                      Magyars
                      > (ethnic Hungarians), formed their own groups, with their own language and
                      > culture.

                      I found it interesting when I traced my great grandmother's family back to
                      the 1720s in Slovakia. Their name was Gettler, a German name. Even though
                      they
                      had lived in Hungary/Slovakia, for at least 180 years when they immigrated
                      here in 1889 on the ship manifest they entered their nationality as
                      Austrian.
                      Looking at their census records they listed German as their mother tongue.
                      The
                      Gettlers married into Slovak families who entered their nationality as
                      Hungarian/Slovak and mother tongue as either Hungarian or Slovak. Despite
                      generations of intermarriages each seemed to keep their German, Hungarian or
                      Slovak
                      roots, so to speak, despite the mix of it all.
                      My grandmother spoke Hungarian, German, Slovak, and even some Polish I
                      recently found out, and despite her "German mother" claimed to be Hungarian,
                      but
                      ethnically speaking, was more Slovak. So her claim of being Hungarian was
                      based
                      on the fact that she lived there but was not really Magyar.

                      Joyce


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                      To unsubscribe from this group, go to
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                      SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                    • amiak27
                      With the medley and mix of nationalities in Austria-Hungary it is amazing to see how people did chose an ethnic identity. It sounds as if your grandmother was
                      Message 10 of 19 , Dec 5, 2004
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                        With the medley and mix of nationalities in Austria-Hungary it is
                        amazing to see how people did chose an ethnic identity. It sounds as
                        if your grandmother was quite happy as Hungarian. There were cross-
                        overs for political, economic or simply cultural grounds. Now we do
                        have what might be called a Madjarone/Magyarone married into my
                        family. A Slovak wanna-be Hungarian. The family name is
                        suspiciously Slavic, but the family insists they are Hungarian.

                        I always wondered why the German speaking citizens identified
                        as 'German' around last century and not 'Austrian'. It appears that
                        even this degree of assimilation was not happening - or we do not
                        currently read about it. This is where browsing some contemporary
                        documents from past periods would be handy!

                        Ron

                        --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, WHew536674@c... wrote:
                        > I found it interesting when I traced my great grandmother's family
                        back to
                        > the 1720s in Slovakia. Their name was Gettler, a German name. Even
                        though they
                        > had lived in Hungary/Slovakia, for at least 180 years when they
                        immigrated
                        > here in 1889 on the ship manifest they entered their nationality as
                        Austrian.
                        > Looking at their census records they listed German as their mother
                        tongue. The
                        > Gettlers married into Slovak families who entered their nationality
                        as
                        > Hungarian/Slovak and mother tongue as either Hungarian or Slovak.
                        Despite
                        > generations of intermarriages each seemed to keep their German,
                        Hungarian or Slovak
                        > roots, so to speak, despite the mix of it all.
                        > My grandmother spoke Hungarian, German, Slovak, and even some
                        Polish I
                        > recently found out, and despite her "German mother" claimed to be
                        Hungarian, but
                        > ethnically speaking, was more Slovak. So her claim of being
                        Hungarian was based
                        > on the fact that she lived there but was not really Magyar.
                        >
                        > Joyce
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • amiak27
                        With the medley and mix of nationalities in Austria-Hungary it is amazing to see how people did chose an ethnic identity. It sounds as if your grandmother was
                        Message 11 of 19 , Dec 5, 2004
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                          With the medley and mix of nationalities in Austria-Hungary it is
                          amazing to see how people did chose an ethnic identity. It sounds as
                          if your grandmother was quite happy as Hungarian. There were cross-
                          overs for political, economic or simply cultural grounds. Now we do
                          have what might be called a Madjarone/Magyarone married into my
                          family. A Slovak wanna-be Hungarian. The family name is
                          suspiciously Slavic, but the family insists they are Hungarian.

                          I always wondered why the German speaking citizens identified
                          as 'German' around last century and not 'Austrian'. It appears that
                          even this degree of assimilation was not happening - or we do not
                          currently read about it. This is where browsing some contemporary
                          documents from past periods would be handy!

                          Ron

                          PS You can read the book "A History of Slovakia" by Stanislav
                          Kirschbaum, and look up a bit of information on his interesting
                          father as well. Then there is Schuster as president of modern
                          Slovakia...

                          --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, WHew536674@c... wrote:
                          > I found it interesting when I traced my great grandmother's family
                          back to
                          > the 1720s in Slovakia. Their name was Gettler, a German name. Even
                          though they
                          > had lived in Hungary/Slovakia, for at least 180 years when they
                          immigrated
                          > here in 1889 on the ship manifest they entered their nationality as
                          Austrian.
                          > Looking at their census records they listed German as their mother
                          tongue. The
                          > Gettlers married into Slovak families who entered their nationality
                          as
                          > Hungarian/Slovak and mother tongue as either Hungarian or Slovak.
                          Despite
                          > generations of intermarriages each seemed to keep their German,
                          Hungarian or Slovak
                          > roots, so to speak, despite the mix of it all.
                          > My grandmother spoke Hungarian, German, Slovak, and even some
                          Polish I
                          > recently found out, and despite her "German mother" claimed to be
                          Hungarian, but
                          > ethnically speaking, was more Slovak. So her claim of being
                          Hungarian was based
                          > on the fact that she lived there but was not really Magyar.
                          >
                          > Joyce
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • WHew536674@cs.com
                          In a message dated 12/5/2004 11:24:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... You hit the nail on the head. It wasn t until I started to research church records that I
                          Message 12 of 19 , Dec 5, 2004
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                            In a message dated 12/5/2004 11:24:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                            rmat@... writes:
                            > It sounds as
                            > if your grandmother was quite happy as Hungarian. There were cross-
                            > overs for political, economic or simply cultural grounds.

                            You hit the nail on the head. It wasn't until I started to research church
                            records that I found out that the family name had been Kristofik, which is a
                            Slovak name. They had magyarized the name to Kristoffy. I would love to know
                            why because they were the only Kristofiks from that town that did that. As a
                            result of that and the fact that Hungarian was their main language us first
                            generation Americans grew up thinking that we were Magyar. Nothing like doing
                            research to rewrite family history. Makes me think of the movie, Sunshine, I
                            think was the name of it. The story was about 3 generations of a Jewish family
                            in Budapest and how they had been magyarized and then in the end of the movie
                            the grandson goes back to the original family name. Very good movie.

                            Joyce


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • nhasior@aol.com
                            In a message dated 12/5/04 11:51:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... my aunt, born 1915 in the United States of immigrant parents, would define herself as
                            Message 13 of 19 , Dec 6, 2004
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                              In a message dated 12/5/04 11:51:43 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                              WHew536674@... writes:

                              > had magyarized the name to Kristoffy. I would love to know
                              > why

                              my aunt, born 1915 in the United States of immigrant parents, would define
                              herself as Slovak, yet her cousin, born in Slovakia and coming to the States in
                              1951, would define himself as Hungarian. he said that to be Hungarian was
                              to be of better heritage. their fathers were brothers and their mothers came
                              from the exact same village.
                              my brother, growing up, would tell everyone that our family was German. I
                              told everyone that we are Polish and Slovak. we had the exact same parents. he
                              got his story from our father. i got my story from my mother.
                              Noreen


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • nhasior@aol.com
                              In a message dated 12/5/04 8:47:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... Joyce, The Hungarians imposed their language in the schools and would give a hard time to
                              Message 14 of 19 , Dec 6, 2004
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                                In a message dated 12/5/04 8:47:01 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                                WHew536674@... writes:

                                > So her claim of being Hungarian was based
                                > on the fact that she lived there but was not really Magyar.
                                >
                                >
                                Joyce,
                                The Hungarians imposed their language in the schools and would give a hard
                                time to anyone who spoke Slovak or taught their children the Slovak language.
                                they basically tried to ethnically cleanse the area and make it all Hungarian.

                                Noreen


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Bill Tarkulich
                                When I first began to delve into the nationality-versus-ethnicity issue, I found a couple of references which I come back to for a grounding on a regular
                                Message 15 of 19 , Dec 6, 2004
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                                  When I first began to delve into the nationality-versus-ethnicity issue, I
                                  found a couple
                                  of references which I come back to for a grounding on a regular basis:

                                  Demographic Maps, including ethnic distribution, circa 1900:
                                  http://www.bogardi.com/gen/g100.htm

                                  A definition of the word "ethnic"
                                  http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ethnic

                                  Bill Tarkulich

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: WHew536674@... [mailto:WHew536674@...]
                                  Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 11:51 PM
                                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Poprad area (German settlement)



                                  In a message dated 12/5/2004 11:24:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                                  rmat@... writes:
                                  > It sounds as
                                  > if your grandmother was quite happy as Hungarian. There were cross-
                                  > overs for political, economic or simply cultural grounds.

                                  You hit the nail on the head. It wasn't until I started to research church
                                  records that I found out that the family name had been Kristofik, which is a

                                  Slovak name. They had magyarized the name to Kristoffy. I would love to
                                  know
                                  why because they were the only Kristofiks from that town that did that. As
                                  a
                                  result of that and the fact that Hungarian was their main language us first
                                  generation Americans grew up thinking that we were Magyar. Nothing like
                                  doing
                                  research to rewrite family history. Makes me think of the movie, Sunshine,
                                  I
                                  think was the name of it. The story was about 3 generations of a Jewish
                                  family
                                  in Budapest and how they had been magyarized and then in the end of the
                                  movie
                                  the grandson goes back to the original family name. Very good movie.

                                  Joyce


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                  To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                                  http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                                  SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                                • Janet Kozlay
                                  Those maps are utterly fascinating and indeed very helpful in putting family histories into context. Thanks for a wonderful contribution. Janet ... From: Bill
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Dec 6, 2004
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                                    Those maps are utterly fascinating and indeed very helpful in putting family
                                    histories into context. Thanks for a wonderful contribution.
                                    Janet


                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Bill Tarkulich [mailto:bill.tarkulich@...]
                                    Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 5:40 AM
                                    To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: RE: [S-R] Re: Poprad area (German settlement)


                                    When I first began to delve into the nationality-versus-ethnicity issue, I
                                    found a couple
                                    of references which I come back to for a grounding on a regular basis:

                                    Demographic Maps, including ethnic distribution, circa 1900:
                                    http://www.bogardi.com/gen/g100.htm

                                    A definition of the word "ethnic"
                                    http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ethnic

                                    Bill Tarkulich
                                  • krisstrot@aol.com
                                    ... I always considered my Grandmother German. When she came over in 1910, she listed her ethnicity as German and her place of birth as Hungary. When
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Dec 6, 2004
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                                      In a message dated 12/5/2004 8:45:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, WHew536674@... writes:

                                      >...So her claim of being Hungarian was based
                                      >on the fact that she lived there but was not really Magyar.
                                      >
                                      >Joyce

                                      I always considered my Grandmother "German." When she came over in 1910, she listed her ethnicity as "German" and her place of birth as "Hungary." When HER mother came for a visit in 1913, she listed her ethnicity as "Magyar" and place of birth as "Hungary." (I always thought she was of German origin, her maiden name being Weber.) She was traveling with her 16 year old daughter (my grandmother's sister), who also listed her ethnicity as "Magyar." I suppose she followed what her mother had said two lines above, while my grandmother, traveling on her own at age 24, listed her ethnicity as "German." Interesting. My sister and I often talk about the huge "jigsaw puzzle" this genealogy research truly is, and I'm glad to have a "partner in crime" to help keep my eyes open to ALL possibilities and to not be so LITERAL when reading ship and census records.
                                      Kris
                                    • Bill Tarkulich
                                      I agree wholeheartedly. To truly understand the puzzle, you must take into consideration the political, ethnic, religious, language, geographical and
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Dec 6, 2004
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                                        I agree wholeheartedly. To truly understand the puzzle, you must take into consideration the political, ethnic, religious, language, geographical and historical perspectives for BOTH America and the village in question on:
                                        1. The date of reference
                                        2. The date the reference was given
                                        3. The present day

                                        Then you must also understand the agenda of the person providing the information: did they have an axe to grind? Were they ignorant? indoctrinated? mistaken? Where did their information come from: family, government, etcetera? Some people just became frustrated with questions by Americans who didn't understand and chose to "Simplify" their origin. Others simply didn't really care what you called them as long as they got what they wanted.

                                        The only way to make sense is to put it into the perspective from which it was given. As we all know, a reference to "Hungary" in 1910 has vastly different meaning than in 2004. Terms such as "Ruthenian" are obsolete.

                                        "Hungarian" could mean the nationality, ethnicity and/or language. We tend to try and simplify things in Europe by generalizing within a country: Spanish citizens are ethnic Spanish, speak Spanish language and come from Spain.

                                        Immigration agents often used the spoken tongue of an immigrant to identify their ethnicity. Better than nothing I suppose, but always room for big errors.

                                        When I was in my ancestral village, I brought a tape recorder and brought back a half-hour of conversation. I played it to my Aunt, daughter of immigrants from the same village. While she could understand it, she had enough education to be able to recognize that there was a bit of Polish, Ukraine, Slovak and Magyar (Hungarian) all mixed in. The indigenous language taught to her by her parents appears to have morphed in the 100 years since their emigration.

                                        Whatever you do, assume nothing, postulate, but always corroborate your data before drawing conclusions.

                                        Bill

                                        >
                                        > From: krisstrot@...
                                        > Date: 2004/12/06 Mon AM 10:56:43 EST
                                        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Poprad area (German settlement)
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > In a message dated 12/5/2004 8:45:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, WHew536674@... writes:
                                        >
                                        > >...So her claim of being Hungarian was based
                                        > >on the fact that she lived there but was not really Magyar.
                                        > >
                                        > >Joyce
                                        >
                                        > I always considered my Grandmother "German." When she came over in 1910, she listed her ethnicity as "German" and her place of birth as "Hungary." When HER mother came for a visit in 1913, she listed her ethnicity as "Magyar" and place of birth as "Hungary." (I always thought she was of German origin, her maiden name being Weber.) She was traveling with her 16 year old daughter (my grandmother's sister), who also listed her ethnicity as "Magyar." I suppose she followed what her mother had said two lines above, while my grandmother, traveling on her own at age 24, listed her ethnicity as "German." Interesting. My sister and I often talk about the huge "jigsaw puzzle" this genealogy research truly is, and I'm glad to have a "partner in crime" to help keep my eyes open to ALL possibilities and to not be so LITERAL when reading ship and census records.
                                        > Kris
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
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