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Re: [S-R] Re: Poprad area (German settlement)

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  • nhasior@aol.com
    Ron and Kris, this is all very interesting. If the Mongols ravaged Szepes County in the mid-1300 s, could it not have been long after that that the German
    Message 1 of 19 , Dec 4, 2004
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      Ron and Kris,
      this is all very interesting. If the Mongols ravaged Szepes County in the
      mid-1300's, could it not have been long after that that the German settlers
      came. It was around the mid to late 1600's that Lubicke Kupele first had mention
      of the sulfur water spring in written history, so it is possible that the
      settler's came sometime between. The sulfur spring in Lubicke Kupele was first
      discovered by a shepherd in the nearby fields and it was not for some time that
      the spring lay untouched before it was developed and followed by a spa town
      with a hotel and restaurant and all the amenities.
      I am going to look up Meissen on a map to see where exactly that town in
      Germany is. Also Thuringer and Hessen.
      Noreen


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Thomas Reimer
      The Mongols came in 1240-1241. Germans lived in the Zips already then, since the 12th century, notably in Eisdorf (Zakovce). After the Mongol devastation, many
      Message 2 of 19 , Dec 4, 2004
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        The Mongols came in 1240-1241. Germans lived in the Zips already then, since
        the 12th century, notably in Eisdorf (Zakovce). After the Mongol
        devastation, many more were invited to come by the Kings of Hungary.

        Thomas


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: <nhasior@...>
        To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 4:24 PM
        Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Poprad area (German settlement)


        >
        > Ron and Kris,
        > this is all very interesting. If the Mongols ravaged Szepes County in the
        > mid-1300's, could it not have been long after that that the German
        settlers
        > came. It was around the mid to late 1600's that Lubicke Kupele first had
        mention
        > of the sulfur water spring in written history, so it is possible that the
        > settler's came sometime between. The sulfur spring in Lubicke Kupele was
        first
        > discovered by a shepherd in the nearby fields and it was not for some time
        that
        > the spring lay untouched before it was developed and followed by a spa
        town
        > with a hotel and restaurant and all the amenities.
        > I am going to look up Meissen on a map to see where exactly that town in
        > Germany is. Also Thuringer and Hessen.
        > Noreen
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
        http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
        SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • nhasior@aol.com
        ... Thomas, Kris and Ron, If Germans were already living in Zips (Szepes) in 1240, that is well over 750 years ago. After living there for all that time,
        Message 3 of 19 , Dec 4, 2004
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          > The Mongols came in 1240-1241. Germans lived in the Zips already


          Thomas, Kris and Ron,
          If Germans were already living in Zips (Szepes) in 1240, that is well over
          750 years ago. After living there for all that time, wouldn't the Germans
          living in Szepes be considered to be Slovak ? how long would they have remained
          German?
          the military Wild Geese of Ireland lived all over the world. they fought for
          France, fought in the Revolutionary War in America, fought in wars in South
          America and often settled down in the country where they were fighting and they
          stayed on. are they still Irish after all that time? or having settled for
          all those years in other countries, do they lose their ethnicity????
          I never considered my three grandparents to be anything other than Slovak and
          my one grandfather to be Polish. now, I am slowly seeing the concept that if
          their family came from another country hundreds of years before, then they
          were ethnicaly something else.
          Noreen



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Thomas Reimer
          Slovak and German are used here to describe their ethnicity, not their present citizenship. The descendants of a local German who married into a Slovak village
          Message 4 of 19 , Dec 4, 2004
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            Slovak and German are used here to describe their ethnicity, not their
            present citizenship.

            The descendants of a local German who married into a Slovak village became
            Slovaks, and vice-versa. But ethnically, Slovaks, Germans, Ruthenes, Magyars
            (ethnic Hungarians), formed their own groups, with their own language and
            culture. Politically, they were all Hungarian subjects, anyway, till 1918,
            and only in the last 70 years had the Magyar elite tried to assimilate them.

            Thomas

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: <nhasior@...>
            To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 9:27 PM
            Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Poprad area (German settlement)


            >
            >
            >
            > > The Mongols came in 1240-1241. Germans lived in the Zips already
            >
            >
            > Thomas, Kris and Ron,
            > If Germans were already living in Zips (Szepes) in 1240, that is well over
            > 750 years ago. After living there for all that time, wouldn't the Germans
            > living in Szepes be considered to be Slovak ? how long would they have
            remained
            > German?
            > the military Wild Geese of Ireland lived all over the world. they fought
            for
            > France, fought in the Revolutionary War in America, fought in wars in
            South
            > America and often settled down in the country where they were fighting and
            they
            > stayed on. are they still Irish after all that time? or having settled
            for
            > all those years in other countries, do they lose their ethnicity????
            > I never considered my three grandparents to be anything other than Slovak
            and
            > my one grandfather to be Polish. now, I am slowly seeing the concept that
            if
            > their family came from another country hundreds of years before, then they
            > were ethnicaly something else.
            > Noreen
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
            http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
            SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • krisstrot@aol.com
            In a message dated 12/4/2004 8:28:53 PM Central Standard Time, nhasior@aol.com writes: If Germans were already living in Zips (Szepes) in 1240, that is well
            Message 5 of 19 , Dec 4, 2004
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              In a message dated 12/4/2004 8:28:53 PM Central Standard Time,
              nhasior@... writes:
              If Germans were already living in Zips (Szepes) in 1240, that is well over
              750 years ago. After living there for all that time, wouldn't the Germans
              living in Szepes be considered to be Slovak ?
              Noreen,
              My grandfather's family was in the Zips for about 100 years before he was
              born. He always considered himself a German, or as I mentioned before, more
              correctly a Zipser-Saxon. Zipser giving credit to where he was born, and Saxon
              giving credit to his heritage. I know that the man I believe to be my
              grandfather's grandfather (I haven't seen the birth records yet, so can't yet be 100%
              positive) actually denounced his German-ness, saying, in effect, that his
              blood, like the Danube, arose in Germany, but, also like the Danube, it flows
              also in Hungary (meaning Austria-Hungary). I don't know why he made that
              decision, but his son (my grandfather's father) and my grandfather considered
              themselves Germans.
              Some good questions, Noreen; and I am learning along with you. Thanks to
              all who posted or will post on this subject.
              Kris


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • nhasior@aol.com
              Zipser giving credit to where he was born, and Saxon giving credit to his heritage. Slovak and German are used here to describe their ethnicity, not their
              Message 6 of 19 , Dec 5, 2004
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                Zipser giving credit to where he was born, and Saxon
                giving credit to his heritage.
                Slovak and German are used here to describe their ethnicity, not their
                present citizenship

                Thomas and Kris,
                If a person wishes to live in Slovakia as an expatriate based on their
                parents' or their grandparents' being Slovak, this is where the fine line comes in.
                It is presumed that the parents or grandparents were Slovak citizens if they
                were born in what is now Slovakia, but to be an Expatriate based on your
                grandparents' being born in Slovakia and to have the legal privileges of that
                status, you must also show that they were ethnically Slovak.
                This is very important in obtaining the Expatriate Status card. Last night,
                we went to my daughter's home for pizza and I was telling them about Meissen,
                Hessen and Thuringia and all the places that Ron and Kris mentioned. The
                Mongols, mentioned by Thomas, are quite a story. Years ago, I had read Fire In
                the Steppe by Henryk Sienkiewicz and then went on to the other stories in his
                Trilogy. It was historical fiction about the invasions of the Tartars into
                Poland and I wonder if Slovakia was part of this. I do know that the Battle of
                Vienna turned the tide and saved all of Europe from being overrun by invaders.
                Noreen


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • amiak27
                Noreen, About a year ago I went to see Lord of the Rings after listening to a fellow at work talk about all the characters, languages, cultures and exotic
                Message 7 of 19 , Dec 5, 2004
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                  Noreen,

                  About a year ago I went to see 'Lord of the Rings' after listening to
                  a fellow at work talk about all the characters, languages, cultures
                  and exotic settings and happenings in the series. I was about 1/4
                  into the movie when I said to myself "This has nothing over the
                  history of Hungary and the Slovaks". If you take the last 1500 years
                  to include the thousand year span of the kingdom, we had all those
                  exotic peoples coming and going and some settling and mixing, and
                  some moving out, some rampaging through. We have a fascinating
                  history of different costumes, values and cultures. You have a lot
                  of reading to do if this is interesting to you.

                  One of the unique things of the kingdom was the ethnic medley of
                  peoples. Some time back one visitor passed through and commented
                  that he passed through seven villages and encountered seven different
                  peoples, all Hungarian citizens (I want to simply say all
                  Hungarians). Many came and remained separate and distinct, and that
                  is how a large part of the Zipser Deutsch retained their identity.
                  There was the mixing and the adaptation of cultures as Tomas
                  mentioned. When you moved into a village you generally adapted that
                  dominant culture. Perhaps the Jews in the villages were the
                  exception.

                  The Germans were known for the mining and small manufacture as well
                  as those who farmed, and quite a few of the towns were either
                  established or formalized with German business people being granted
                  royal town rights and bringing in some of their established codes of
                  law to run the town and regulate business - and to keep control of
                  trade and the tradesmen & artisans.

                  You can begin with some good books supplemented by the internet, but
                  again take caution with what you read. There is a lot of
                  chauvinistic writing out there with any one ethnic group tending to
                  tell its own story, sometimes romanticizing it, most often neglecting
                  to mention other ethnic groups also in the same area at the same
                  time. It seems worse than the neglect of Indian and black history in
                  the USA used to be. Enjoy the quest.

                  Now the Mongols romped through in 1241 and two battles measuring the
                  Turkish time in Hungary ranged from the battle of Mohacs 1526 until
                  with the battle of Vienna 1683. Of course there are transition times
                  before and after and lots of politics, some of it like our cold war,
                  some of it with changing alliances.

                  Enough for now, time to get on with life
                  Ron



                  --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, nhasior@a... wrote:
                  > Zipser giving credit to where he was born, and Saxon
                  > giving credit to his heritage.
                  > Slovak and German are used here to describe their ethnicity, not
                  their
                  > present citizenship
                  >
                  > Thomas and Kris,
                  > If a person wishes to live in Slovakia as an expatriate based on
                  their
                  > parents' or their grandparents' being Slovak, this is where the
                  fine line comes in.
                  > It is presumed that the parents or grandparents were Slovak
                  citizens if they
                  > were born in what is now Slovakia, but to be an Expatriate based on
                  your
                  > grandparents' being born in Slovakia and to have the legal
                  privileges of that
                  > status, you must also show that they were ethnically Slovak.
                  > This is very important in obtaining the Expatriate Status card.
                  Last night,
                  > we went to my daughter's home for pizza and I was telling them
                  about Meissen,
                  > Hessen and Thuringia and all the places that Ron and Kris
                  mentioned. The
                  > Mongols, mentioned by Thomas, are quite a story. Years ago, I had
                  read Fire In
                  > the Steppe by Henryk Sienkiewicz and then went on to the other
                  stories in his
                  > Trilogy. It was historical fiction about the invasions of the
                  Tartars into
                  > Poland and I wonder if Slovakia was part of this. I do know that
                  the Battle of
                  > Vienna turned the tide and saved all of Europe from being overrun
                  by invaders.
                  > Noreen
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • nhasior@aol.com
                  In a message dated 12/5/04 12:24:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... Ron, you mean we have a life outside of genealogy? :O) enjoy the rest of the weekend. not
                  Message 8 of 19 , Dec 5, 2004
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                    In a message dated 12/5/04 12:24:49 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                    rmat@... writes:

                    > Enough for now, time to get on with life
                    >
                    Ron,
                    you mean we have a life outside of genealogy? :O)
                    enjoy the rest of the weekend. not much left.
                    Noreen


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • WHew536674@cs.com
                    In a message dated 12/4/2004 9:39:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... I found it interesting when I traced my great grandmother s family back to the 1720s in
                    Message 9 of 19 , Dec 5, 2004
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                      In a message dated 12/4/2004 9:39:02 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                      treimer@... writes:
                      > The descendants of a local German who married into a Slovak village became
                      > Slovaks, and vice-versa. But ethnically, Slovaks, Germans, Ruthenes, Magyars
                      > (ethnic Hungarians), formed their own groups, with their own language and
                      > culture.

                      I found it interesting when I traced my great grandmother's family back to
                      the 1720s in Slovakia. Their name was Gettler, a German name. Even though they
                      had lived in Hungary/Slovakia, for at least 180 years when they immigrated
                      here in 1889 on the ship manifest they entered their nationality as Austrian.
                      Looking at their census records they listed German as their mother tongue. The
                      Gettlers married into Slovak families who entered their nationality as
                      Hungarian/Slovak and mother tongue as either Hungarian or Slovak. Despite
                      generations of intermarriages each seemed to keep their German, Hungarian or Slovak
                      roots, so to speak, despite the mix of it all.
                      My grandmother spoke Hungarian, German, Slovak, and even some Polish I
                      recently found out, and despite her "German mother" claimed to be Hungarian, but
                      ethnically speaking, was more Slovak. So her claim of being Hungarian was based
                      on the fact that she lived there but was not really Magyar.

                      Joyce


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Janet Kozlay
                      It is an interesting exercise to look at the languages spoken by people from a particular area in Slovakia when they came through Ellis Island. I did that
                      Message 10 of 19 , Dec 5, 2004
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                        It is an interesting exercise to look at the languages spoken by people from
                        a particular area in Slovakia when they came through Ellis Island. I did
                        that recently and of the sample I looked at, 60% spoke Slovak, 30%
                        Hungarian, and 10% German. It is even more interesting when you know that
                        all of these people had the same family name. I think it is probable that if
                        you asked each of them what ethnic group they belonged to, they would answer
                        in terms of their primary language. But ethnicity has very little meaning
                        when there is a high degree of intermarriage. This is especially true, as
                        Joyce pointed out, when intermarriage took place over many generations.
                        Slovakia, too, was a great melting pot.

                        Janet

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: WHew536674@... [mailto:WHew536674@...]
                        Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 8:46 PM
                        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Poprad area (German settlement)


                        In a message dated 12/4/2004 9:39:02 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                        treimer@... writes:
                        > The descendants of a local German who married into a Slovak village became
                        > Slovaks, and vice-versa. But ethnically, Slovaks, Germans, Ruthenes,
                        Magyars
                        > (ethnic Hungarians), formed their own groups, with their own language and
                        > culture.

                        I found it interesting when I traced my great grandmother's family back to
                        the 1720s in Slovakia. Their name was Gettler, a German name. Even though
                        they
                        had lived in Hungary/Slovakia, for at least 180 years when they immigrated
                        here in 1889 on the ship manifest they entered their nationality as
                        Austrian.
                        Looking at their census records they listed German as their mother tongue.
                        The
                        Gettlers married into Slovak families who entered their nationality as
                        Hungarian/Slovak and mother tongue as either Hungarian or Slovak. Despite
                        generations of intermarriages each seemed to keep their German, Hungarian or
                        Slovak
                        roots, so to speak, despite the mix of it all.
                        My grandmother spoke Hungarian, German, Slovak, and even some Polish I
                        recently found out, and despite her "German mother" claimed to be Hungarian,
                        but
                        ethnically speaking, was more Slovak. So her claim of being Hungarian was
                        based
                        on the fact that she lived there but was not really Magyar.

                        Joyce


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                        To unsubscribe from this group, go to
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                      • amiak27
                        With the medley and mix of nationalities in Austria-Hungary it is amazing to see how people did chose an ethnic identity. It sounds as if your grandmother was
                        Message 11 of 19 , Dec 5, 2004
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                          With the medley and mix of nationalities in Austria-Hungary it is
                          amazing to see how people did chose an ethnic identity. It sounds as
                          if your grandmother was quite happy as Hungarian. There were cross-
                          overs for political, economic or simply cultural grounds. Now we do
                          have what might be called a Madjarone/Magyarone married into my
                          family. A Slovak wanna-be Hungarian. The family name is
                          suspiciously Slavic, but the family insists they are Hungarian.

                          I always wondered why the German speaking citizens identified
                          as 'German' around last century and not 'Austrian'. It appears that
                          even this degree of assimilation was not happening - or we do not
                          currently read about it. This is where browsing some contemporary
                          documents from past periods would be handy!

                          Ron

                          --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, WHew536674@c... wrote:
                          > I found it interesting when I traced my great grandmother's family
                          back to
                          > the 1720s in Slovakia. Their name was Gettler, a German name. Even
                          though they
                          > had lived in Hungary/Slovakia, for at least 180 years when they
                          immigrated
                          > here in 1889 on the ship manifest they entered their nationality as
                          Austrian.
                          > Looking at their census records they listed German as their mother
                          tongue. The
                          > Gettlers married into Slovak families who entered their nationality
                          as
                          > Hungarian/Slovak and mother tongue as either Hungarian or Slovak.
                          Despite
                          > generations of intermarriages each seemed to keep their German,
                          Hungarian or Slovak
                          > roots, so to speak, despite the mix of it all.
                          > My grandmother spoke Hungarian, German, Slovak, and even some
                          Polish I
                          > recently found out, and despite her "German mother" claimed to be
                          Hungarian, but
                          > ethnically speaking, was more Slovak. So her claim of being
                          Hungarian was based
                          > on the fact that she lived there but was not really Magyar.
                          >
                          > Joyce
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • amiak27
                          With the medley and mix of nationalities in Austria-Hungary it is amazing to see how people did chose an ethnic identity. It sounds as if your grandmother was
                          Message 12 of 19 , Dec 5, 2004
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                            With the medley and mix of nationalities in Austria-Hungary it is
                            amazing to see how people did chose an ethnic identity. It sounds as
                            if your grandmother was quite happy as Hungarian. There were cross-
                            overs for political, economic or simply cultural grounds. Now we do
                            have what might be called a Madjarone/Magyarone married into my
                            family. A Slovak wanna-be Hungarian. The family name is
                            suspiciously Slavic, but the family insists they are Hungarian.

                            I always wondered why the German speaking citizens identified
                            as 'German' around last century and not 'Austrian'. It appears that
                            even this degree of assimilation was not happening - or we do not
                            currently read about it. This is where browsing some contemporary
                            documents from past periods would be handy!

                            Ron

                            PS You can read the book "A History of Slovakia" by Stanislav
                            Kirschbaum, and look up a bit of information on his interesting
                            father as well. Then there is Schuster as president of modern
                            Slovakia...

                            --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, WHew536674@c... wrote:
                            > I found it interesting when I traced my great grandmother's family
                            back to
                            > the 1720s in Slovakia. Their name was Gettler, a German name. Even
                            though they
                            > had lived in Hungary/Slovakia, for at least 180 years when they
                            immigrated
                            > here in 1889 on the ship manifest they entered their nationality as
                            Austrian.
                            > Looking at their census records they listed German as their mother
                            tongue. The
                            > Gettlers married into Slovak families who entered their nationality
                            as
                            > Hungarian/Slovak and mother tongue as either Hungarian or Slovak.
                            Despite
                            > generations of intermarriages each seemed to keep their German,
                            Hungarian or Slovak
                            > roots, so to speak, despite the mix of it all.
                            > My grandmother spoke Hungarian, German, Slovak, and even some
                            Polish I
                            > recently found out, and despite her "German mother" claimed to be
                            Hungarian, but
                            > ethnically speaking, was more Slovak. So her claim of being
                            Hungarian was based
                            > on the fact that she lived there but was not really Magyar.
                            >
                            > Joyce
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • WHew536674@cs.com
                            In a message dated 12/5/2004 11:24:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... You hit the nail on the head. It wasn t until I started to research church records that I
                            Message 13 of 19 , Dec 5, 2004
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                              In a message dated 12/5/2004 11:24:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                              rmat@... writes:
                              > It sounds as
                              > if your grandmother was quite happy as Hungarian. There were cross-
                              > overs for political, economic or simply cultural grounds.

                              You hit the nail on the head. It wasn't until I started to research church
                              records that I found out that the family name had been Kristofik, which is a
                              Slovak name. They had magyarized the name to Kristoffy. I would love to know
                              why because they were the only Kristofiks from that town that did that. As a
                              result of that and the fact that Hungarian was their main language us first
                              generation Americans grew up thinking that we were Magyar. Nothing like doing
                              research to rewrite family history. Makes me think of the movie, Sunshine, I
                              think was the name of it. The story was about 3 generations of a Jewish family
                              in Budapest and how they had been magyarized and then in the end of the movie
                              the grandson goes back to the original family name. Very good movie.

                              Joyce


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • nhasior@aol.com
                              In a message dated 12/5/04 11:51:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... my aunt, born 1915 in the United States of immigrant parents, would define herself as
                              Message 14 of 19 , Dec 6, 2004
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                                In a message dated 12/5/04 11:51:43 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                                WHew536674@... writes:

                                > had magyarized the name to Kristoffy. I would love to know
                                > why

                                my aunt, born 1915 in the United States of immigrant parents, would define
                                herself as Slovak, yet her cousin, born in Slovakia and coming to the States in
                                1951, would define himself as Hungarian. he said that to be Hungarian was
                                to be of better heritage. their fathers were brothers and their mothers came
                                from the exact same village.
                                my brother, growing up, would tell everyone that our family was German. I
                                told everyone that we are Polish and Slovak. we had the exact same parents. he
                                got his story from our father. i got my story from my mother.
                                Noreen


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • nhasior@aol.com
                                In a message dated 12/5/04 8:47:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... Joyce, The Hungarians imposed their language in the schools and would give a hard time to
                                Message 15 of 19 , Dec 6, 2004
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                                  In a message dated 12/5/04 8:47:01 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                                  WHew536674@... writes:

                                  > So her claim of being Hungarian was based
                                  > on the fact that she lived there but was not really Magyar.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  Joyce,
                                  The Hungarians imposed their language in the schools and would give a hard
                                  time to anyone who spoke Slovak or taught their children the Slovak language.
                                  they basically tried to ethnically cleanse the area and make it all Hungarian.

                                  Noreen


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Bill Tarkulich
                                  When I first began to delve into the nationality-versus-ethnicity issue, I found a couple of references which I come back to for a grounding on a regular
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Dec 6, 2004
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                                    When I first began to delve into the nationality-versus-ethnicity issue, I
                                    found a couple
                                    of references which I come back to for a grounding on a regular basis:

                                    Demographic Maps, including ethnic distribution, circa 1900:
                                    http://www.bogardi.com/gen/g100.htm

                                    A definition of the word "ethnic"
                                    http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ethnic

                                    Bill Tarkulich

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: WHew536674@... [mailto:WHew536674@...]
                                    Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 11:51 PM
                                    To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Poprad area (German settlement)



                                    In a message dated 12/5/2004 11:24:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                                    rmat@... writes:
                                    > It sounds as
                                    > if your grandmother was quite happy as Hungarian. There were cross-
                                    > overs for political, economic or simply cultural grounds.

                                    You hit the nail on the head. It wasn't until I started to research church
                                    records that I found out that the family name had been Kristofik, which is a

                                    Slovak name. They had magyarized the name to Kristoffy. I would love to
                                    know
                                    why because they were the only Kristofiks from that town that did that. As
                                    a
                                    result of that and the fact that Hungarian was their main language us first
                                    generation Americans grew up thinking that we were Magyar. Nothing like
                                    doing
                                    research to rewrite family history. Makes me think of the movie, Sunshine,
                                    I
                                    think was the name of it. The story was about 3 generations of a Jewish
                                    family
                                    in Budapest and how they had been magyarized and then in the end of the
                                    movie
                                    the grandson goes back to the original family name. Very good movie.

                                    Joyce


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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                                  • Janet Kozlay
                                    Those maps are utterly fascinating and indeed very helpful in putting family histories into context. Thanks for a wonderful contribution. Janet ... From: Bill
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Dec 6, 2004
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                                      Those maps are utterly fascinating and indeed very helpful in putting family
                                      histories into context. Thanks for a wonderful contribution.
                                      Janet


                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: Bill Tarkulich [mailto:bill.tarkulich@...]
                                      Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 5:40 AM
                                      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: RE: [S-R] Re: Poprad area (German settlement)


                                      When I first began to delve into the nationality-versus-ethnicity issue, I
                                      found a couple
                                      of references which I come back to for a grounding on a regular basis:

                                      Demographic Maps, including ethnic distribution, circa 1900:
                                      http://www.bogardi.com/gen/g100.htm

                                      A definition of the word "ethnic"
                                      http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ethnic

                                      Bill Tarkulich
                                    • krisstrot@aol.com
                                      ... I always considered my Grandmother German. When she came over in 1910, she listed her ethnicity as German and her place of birth as Hungary. When
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Dec 6, 2004
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                                        In a message dated 12/5/2004 8:45:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, WHew536674@... writes:

                                        >...So her claim of being Hungarian was based
                                        >on the fact that she lived there but was not really Magyar.
                                        >
                                        >Joyce

                                        I always considered my Grandmother "German." When she came over in 1910, she listed her ethnicity as "German" and her place of birth as "Hungary." When HER mother came for a visit in 1913, she listed her ethnicity as "Magyar" and place of birth as "Hungary." (I always thought she was of German origin, her maiden name being Weber.) She was traveling with her 16 year old daughter (my grandmother's sister), who also listed her ethnicity as "Magyar." I suppose she followed what her mother had said two lines above, while my grandmother, traveling on her own at age 24, listed her ethnicity as "German." Interesting. My sister and I often talk about the huge "jigsaw puzzle" this genealogy research truly is, and I'm glad to have a "partner in crime" to help keep my eyes open to ALL possibilities and to not be so LITERAL when reading ship and census records.
                                        Kris
                                      • Bill Tarkulich
                                        I agree wholeheartedly. To truly understand the puzzle, you must take into consideration the political, ethnic, religious, language, geographical and
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Dec 6, 2004
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                                          I agree wholeheartedly. To truly understand the puzzle, you must take into consideration the political, ethnic, religious, language, geographical and historical perspectives for BOTH America and the village in question on:
                                          1. The date of reference
                                          2. The date the reference was given
                                          3. The present day

                                          Then you must also understand the agenda of the person providing the information: did they have an axe to grind? Were they ignorant? indoctrinated? mistaken? Where did their information come from: family, government, etcetera? Some people just became frustrated with questions by Americans who didn't understand and chose to "Simplify" their origin. Others simply didn't really care what you called them as long as they got what they wanted.

                                          The only way to make sense is to put it into the perspective from which it was given. As we all know, a reference to "Hungary" in 1910 has vastly different meaning than in 2004. Terms such as "Ruthenian" are obsolete.

                                          "Hungarian" could mean the nationality, ethnicity and/or language. We tend to try and simplify things in Europe by generalizing within a country: Spanish citizens are ethnic Spanish, speak Spanish language and come from Spain.

                                          Immigration agents often used the spoken tongue of an immigrant to identify their ethnicity. Better than nothing I suppose, but always room for big errors.

                                          When I was in my ancestral village, I brought a tape recorder and brought back a half-hour of conversation. I played it to my Aunt, daughter of immigrants from the same village. While she could understand it, she had enough education to be able to recognize that there was a bit of Polish, Ukraine, Slovak and Magyar (Hungarian) all mixed in. The indigenous language taught to her by her parents appears to have morphed in the 100 years since their emigration.

                                          Whatever you do, assume nothing, postulate, but always corroborate your data before drawing conclusions.

                                          Bill

                                          >
                                          > From: krisstrot@...
                                          > Date: 2004/12/06 Mon AM 10:56:43 EST
                                          > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Poprad area (German settlement)
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > In a message dated 12/5/2004 8:45:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, WHew536674@... writes:
                                          >
                                          > >...So her claim of being Hungarian was based
                                          > >on the fact that she lived there but was not really Magyar.
                                          > >
                                          > >Joyce
                                          >
                                          > I always considered my Grandmother "German." When she came over in 1910, she listed her ethnicity as "German" and her place of birth as "Hungary." When HER mother came for a visit in 1913, she listed her ethnicity as "Magyar" and place of birth as "Hungary." (I always thought she was of German origin, her maiden name being Weber.) She was traveling with her 16 year old daughter (my grandmother's sister), who also listed her ethnicity as "Magyar." I suppose she followed what her mother had said two lines above, while my grandmother, traveling on her own at age 24, listed her ethnicity as "German." Interesting. My sister and I often talk about the huge "jigsaw puzzle" this genealogy research truly is, and I'm glad to have a "partner in crime" to help keep my eyes open to ALL possibilities and to not be so LITERAL when reading ship and census records.
                                          > Kris
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
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