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RE: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited

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  • Bill Tarkulich
    Caye, I scanned in the entire 25 page summary of Tradicie slovenskej rodiny. Zost. Marta Botikova, Sona Svecova, Kornelia Jakubikova. Brtislava: Veda, 1997.
    Message 1 of 37 , Oct 6, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      Caye,
      I scanned in the entire 25 page summary of
      Tradicie slovenskej rodiny. Zost. Marta Botikova, Sona Svecova, Kornelia
      Jakubikova. Brtislava: Veda, 1997. 242p. [HQ622.4.T733 1997 Regenstein
      stacks]
      which is referenced in the URL you provided below. If you want it, I'll
      email it to you privately.
      Regards,
      Bill

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Caye Caswick [mailto:ccaswick@...]
      Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 2:46 PM
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited




      Hey you guys . . . look what else I found . . .

      http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/e/su/slavic/wofam1_00.html

      Those who can read Hungarian or other European
      languages may fare better than I . . . but I certainly understand the topic
      of all this research . . . pretty interesting looking stuff.


      Caye



      --- Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:

      > Janet,
      >
      > I'm surprised, given the tight control that most
      > small village residents
      > imposed on their citizens.
      >
      > You may want to read some excerpts I pulled from
      > "Slovak Family Traditions"
      > http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/traditions.htm
      >
      > published by Vydavatelstvo Slovenskej akademie on
      > this exact subject. It's
      > an interesting investigation done by an acknowledged
      > Slovak cultural
      > institution. I would not be so bold as to assume it
      > holds true for all
      > villages, it is certainly interesting since the
      > research was done by Slovaks
      > in Slovakia.
      >
      > Bill
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Janet Kozlay [mailto:kozlay@...]
      > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 8:38 PM
      > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: RE: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
      >
      >
      >
      > Well, yes, most of it seemed to occur in “small,
      > rural villages" in Hungary;
      > other encounters were in Budapest and on his way out
      > of Hungary as he fled
      > from the Austrians following the 1848-49 war. I
      > will say that he seemed to
      > be pursued as much as he was the pursuer.
      >
      > It is very difficult to find any information on
      > customary sexual behavior.
      > Ethnographers tend to avoid this subject altogether.
      > So there is no way to
      > know whether this behavior was common, or whether,
      > as my translator said, he
      > was a “very hot Hungarian." But the overall sense
      > from the diaries was that
      > premarital and extramarital sex was extremely common
      > in the first half of
      > the 19th century.
      >
      > Although he seemed to “grow up“ a bit after he
      > immigrated to America in
      > 1849-50, my communication with other descendants of
      > these émigrés suggests
      > that they developed a reputation for their open
      > sexual proclivities.
      >
      > I would be especially interested in learning whether
      > this was more common
      > among the nobility than the peasantry, but such
      > information probably just
      > does not exist. Our manuscripts offer a very rare
      > glimpse into one
      > individual's experiences which may or may not be
      > applicable to the wider
      > culture.
      >
      > Janet
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Bill Tarkulich
      > [mailto:bill.tarkulich@...]
      > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 6:49 PM
      > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: RE: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
      >
      > I cannot imagine this happening in a small, rural
      > village. Did he live in a
      > heavily populated area, city or town? Bill
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Janet Kozlay [mailto:kozlay@...]
      > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 4:41 PM
      > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: RE: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
      >
      >
      > I fear my husband's great-grandfather, in the 1840s,
      > might have been
      > responsible for a number of these unwanted
      > pregnancies, much to our dismay.
      > His diaries make it clear that he was very sexually active--with just
      > about anybody in a skirt--serfs, village "gooses" who had
      > moved to the big city,
      > neighbors, sisters of boyfriends, even the pastor's
      > wife. One letter to him
      > suggests that he had fathered at least one child,
      > though she didn't seem
      > that unhappy about it: "Your memory will be
      > forever...because that time, you
      > know....I will love him, he will be the only object
      > of my love, because I
      > will see you in him....." And he seemed pleased to
      > think that he might have
      > impregnated a girl in another casual encounter. Not
      > a pretty picture when
      > the results would have been so drastic for the
      > mother and the baby.
      > One poem he wrote was about a girl who sent her
      > newborn baby to the
      > father telling him either to keep the little girl or
      > pay her. And if he
      > chose to do neither, she would see him sleeping in
      > jail. None of these
      > options, though, would seem to spare the baby the
      > social consequences of
      > being illegitimate.
      >
      > Janet
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@...]
      > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 1:49 PM
      > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
      >
      >
      > Dear Andrea,
      > I would expect, that they either die in childhood
      > due to no appropriate care
      > or they disappeared, if not legitimized. However, if legitimized, then
      > their birth record should have been properly modified /
      > corrected. More
      > illegitimate children were born in the second half
      > of the century because of
      > the industrial revolution and also emergence of the
      > middle class. For the
      > first, some girls moved away from home to work in
      > the factory and many began
      > to live a more loose life. For the second, middle
      > class needed maids. Many
      > maids. I found very many illegitimate children in
      > villages surrounding a Spa
      > for example. Or where the military Garrisons were,
      > or the railroad was
      > built. A traditional village out of reach of
      > civilisation did not have many.
      > Almost none. Many were just killed before or just
      > after the birth. A book
      > about the traditions writes about the screams of a
      > young mother echoing
      > through the valley in the middle of the night, when
      > she was killing her baby
      > inside with a woodden stick. She knew, she would be
      > doomed. In Romania, even
      > not so many years ago, women introduced plastic
      > tubes into their wombs and
      > walked with that around, just to provoke abortion.
      > Nobody really wanted such
      > kids. In bigger towns, there were orphanages, where
      > the children could be
      > discretely given away and then the state gave them
      > to other families. I
      > think, I wrote about this already. In those times,
      > Vienna had about 10000
      > (ten thousand) illegitimate births per year. I
      > counted them. Best regards,
      > Vladimir
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Andrea Vangor
      > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 7:19 PM
      > Subject: Re: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
      >
      >
      > Someday I will go back over the church records
      > from Rank and Opina, to see
      > what happens to people who are born out of wedlock
      > and whose parents
      > subsequently marry. Or, at least, who acquire a
      > legal father upon their
      > mother's marriage.
      >
      > If such a person is described as honestus/a, it
      > would suggest that
      > legitimacy can be acquired after the fact.
      >
      > My own recollection is that more out-of-wedlock
      > births occurred later in
      > the
      > 19th century, after the time when records were
      > usually written in Magyar
      > rather than Latin anyway.
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      >
      === message truncated ===




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    • Bill Tarkulich
      Caye, I scanned in the entire 25 page summary of Tradicie slovenskej rodiny. Zost. Marta Botikova, Sona Svecova, Kornelia Jakubikova. Brtislava: Veda, 1997.
      Message 37 of 37 , Oct 6, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        Caye,
        I scanned in the entire 25 page summary of
        Tradicie slovenskej rodiny. Zost. Marta Botikova, Sona Svecova, Kornelia
        Jakubikova. Brtislava: Veda, 1997. 242p. [HQ622.4.T733 1997 Regenstein
        stacks]
        which is referenced in the URL you provided below. If you want it, I'll
        email it to you privately.
        Regards,
        Bill

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Caye Caswick [mailto:ccaswick@...]
        Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 2:46 PM
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited




        Hey you guys . . . look what else I found . . .

        http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/e/su/slavic/wofam1_00.html

        Those who can read Hungarian or other European
        languages may fare better than I . . . but I certainly understand the topic
        of all this research . . . pretty interesting looking stuff.


        Caye



        --- Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:

        > Janet,
        >
        > I'm surprised, given the tight control that most
        > small village residents
        > imposed on their citizens.
        >
        > You may want to read some excerpts I pulled from
        > "Slovak Family Traditions"
        > http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/traditions.htm
        >
        > published by Vydavatelstvo Slovenskej akademie on
        > this exact subject. It's
        > an interesting investigation done by an acknowledged
        > Slovak cultural
        > institution. I would not be so bold as to assume it
        > holds true for all
        > villages, it is certainly interesting since the
        > research was done by Slovaks
        > in Slovakia.
        >
        > Bill
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Janet Kozlay [mailto:kozlay@...]
        > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 8:38 PM
        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: RE: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
        >
        >
        >
        > Well, yes, most of it seemed to occur in “small,
        > rural villages" in Hungary;
        > other encounters were in Budapest and on his way out
        > of Hungary as he fled
        > from the Austrians following the 1848-49 war. I
        > will say that he seemed to
        > be pursued as much as he was the pursuer.
        >
        > It is very difficult to find any information on
        > customary sexual behavior.
        > Ethnographers tend to avoid this subject altogether.
        > So there is no way to
        > know whether this behavior was common, or whether,
        > as my translator said, he
        > was a “very hot Hungarian." But the overall sense
        > from the diaries was that
        > premarital and extramarital sex was extremely common
        > in the first half of
        > the 19th century.
        >
        > Although he seemed to “grow up“ a bit after he
        > immigrated to America in
        > 1849-50, my communication with other descendants of
        > these émigrés suggests
        > that they developed a reputation for their open
        > sexual proclivities.
        >
        > I would be especially interested in learning whether
        > this was more common
        > among the nobility than the peasantry, but such
        > information probably just
        > does not exist. Our manuscripts offer a very rare
        > glimpse into one
        > individual's experiences which may or may not be
        > applicable to the wider
        > culture.
        >
        > Janet
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Bill Tarkulich
        > [mailto:bill.tarkulich@...]
        > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 6:49 PM
        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: RE: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
        >
        > I cannot imagine this happening in a small, rural
        > village. Did he live in a
        > heavily populated area, city or town? Bill
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Janet Kozlay [mailto:kozlay@...]
        > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 4:41 PM
        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: RE: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
        >
        >
        > I fear my husband's great-grandfather, in the 1840s,
        > might have been
        > responsible for a number of these unwanted
        > pregnancies, much to our dismay.
        > His diaries make it clear that he was very sexually active--with just
        > about anybody in a skirt--serfs, village "gooses" who had
        > moved to the big city,
        > neighbors, sisters of boyfriends, even the pastor's
        > wife. One letter to him
        > suggests that he had fathered at least one child,
        > though she didn't seem
        > that unhappy about it: "Your memory will be
        > forever...because that time, you
        > know....I will love him, he will be the only object
        > of my love, because I
        > will see you in him....." And he seemed pleased to
        > think that he might have
        > impregnated a girl in another casual encounter. Not
        > a pretty picture when
        > the results would have been so drastic for the
        > mother and the baby.
        > One poem he wrote was about a girl who sent her
        > newborn baby to the
        > father telling him either to keep the little girl or
        > pay her. And if he
        > chose to do neither, she would see him sleeping in
        > jail. None of these
        > options, though, would seem to spare the baby the
        > social consequences of
        > being illegitimate.
        >
        > Janet
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@...]
        > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 1:49 PM
        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
        >
        >
        > Dear Andrea,
        > I would expect, that they either die in childhood
        > due to no appropriate care
        > or they disappeared, if not legitimized. However, if legitimized, then
        > their birth record should have been properly modified /
        > corrected. More
        > illegitimate children were born in the second half
        > of the century because of
        > the industrial revolution and also emergence of the
        > middle class. For the
        > first, some girls moved away from home to work in
        > the factory and many began
        > to live a more loose life. For the second, middle
        > class needed maids. Many
        > maids. I found very many illegitimate children in
        > villages surrounding a Spa
        > for example. Or where the military Garrisons were,
        > or the railroad was
        > built. A traditional village out of reach of
        > civilisation did not have many.
        > Almost none. Many were just killed before or just
        > after the birth. A book
        > about the traditions writes about the screams of a
        > young mother echoing
        > through the valley in the middle of the night, when
        > she was killing her baby
        > inside with a woodden stick. She knew, she would be
        > doomed. In Romania, even
        > not so many years ago, women introduced plastic
        > tubes into their wombs and
        > walked with that around, just to provoke abortion.
        > Nobody really wanted such
        > kids. In bigger towns, there were orphanages, where
        > the children could be
        > discretely given away and then the state gave them
        > to other families. I
        > think, I wrote about this already. In those times,
        > Vienna had about 10000
        > (ten thousand) illegitimate births per year. I
        > counted them. Best regards,
        > Vladimir
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Andrea Vangor
        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 7:19 PM
        > Subject: Re: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
        >
        >
        > Someday I will go back over the church records
        > from Rank and Opina, to see
        > what happens to people who are born out of wedlock
        > and whose parents
        > subsequently marry. Or, at least, who acquire a
        > legal father upon their
        > mother's marriage.
        >
        > If such a person is described as honestus/a, it
        > would suggest that
        > legitimacy can be acquired after the fact.
        >
        > My own recollection is that more out-of-wedlock
        > births occurred later in
        > the
        > 19th century, after the time when records were
        > usually written in Magyar
        > rather than Latin anyway.
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        >
        === message truncated ===




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