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Re: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions

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  • Vladimir Bohinc
    Dear Janet, I agree with everything, since these are more or less all facts. This is what one could count into Slavic culture. Since were are all Slavs, we
    Message 1 of 13 , Oct 2, 2004
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      Dear Janet,
      I agree with everything, since these are more or less all facts. This is what one could count into Slavic culture.
      Since were are all Slavs, we have many things in common. Slavs in different cuntries ( in Europe)were naturally under influence of their master nations or neighbors, so you can find this in variations too. Villages or areas, which were awau from trade lines, were less exposed to such influences and kept their old customs longer. Many of the customs go far back into the pagan era, where there was no Christianity.
      Every village was and to a large extent still is a closed community, often with it's own, unwritten rules.
      A foreigner, or anyone "different' will have a hard time in it, unless he adopts and subdues. The most feared weapon is gossip. It can kill people softly, or drive them mad. Another weapon is envy.It destroys much of good or new.
      The book Bill is refering to I bought already a year or two ago. It describes wery much , but I am not very happy with the language. It is too dry, without any spirit or soul. It is evident, that it was written by people, who were educated in the past communist regime, where a person was only a statistical item. The writers do not care much about the reader.
      I would have writte it differently. I will touch this subject later in my article for Nase Rodina.
      Regards,
      Vladimir


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Janet Kozlay
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 4:07 AM
      Subject: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions


      Bill, I would like to thank you for posting your excerpts from "Slovak
      Family Traditions," which I recall having read from a previous post of
      yours, as well as the remarkable Grisak autobiography.

      My own research in this area has led me to conclude that there was a fairly
      common culture among the peasants throughout Central Europe regardless of
      their particular ethnicity or language. Nearly everything in your excerpts
      and in the Grisak work is described in Fél and Hofer's "Proper Peasants,"
      though they go into much greater detail and in the case of the excerpts are
      far more readable. Their book, based on an intensive study of a single
      village on the Hungarian Plain, is widely available and fairly inexpensive.
      Descriptions I have read of the culture of Germans who migrated to Hungary
      also do not appear to differ materially. I suspect the same is true of the
      peasant culture of surrounding regions. One would expect some variations
      from area to area, and even village to village, but in my view the
      commonality of the customs and traditions is far more striking. Just one
      example is the custom of men sleeping in the stables, while the women and
      children slept in the house. Others include the courtship rituals of young
      men, the violence that often occurred when a young man courted a girl out of
      his community, the tradition of young men drinking and dancing till the wee
      hours until they married and settled down, and the pathetic position of
      daughters-in-law in a household.

      I am looking forward to Vladimir's contributions and would be very
      interested in learning if he agrees.

      Janet





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    • Bill Tarkulich
      Hi Vladimir, How and where can we go about obtaining the publications of Nase Rodina ? It sounds like a good read. Regards, Bill ... From: Vladimir Bohinc
      Message 2 of 13 , Oct 3, 2004
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        Hi Vladimir,
        How and where can we go about obtaining the publications of " Nase Rodina"?
        It sounds like a good read.
        Regards,
        Bill


        -----Original Message-----
        From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@...]
        Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 2:44 AM
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions



        Dear Janet,
        I agree with everything, since these are more or less all facts. This is
        what one could count into Slavic culture. Since were are all Slavs, we have
        many things in common. Slavs in different cuntries ( in Europe)were
        naturally under influence of their master nations or neighbors, so you can
        find this in variations too. Villages or areas, which were awau from trade
        lines, were less exposed to such influences and kept their old customs
        longer. Many of the customs go far back into the pagan era, where there was
        no Christianity. Every village was and to a large extent still is a closed
        community, often with it's own, unwritten rules. A foreigner, or anyone
        "different' will have a hard time in it, unless he adopts and subdues. The
        most feared weapon is gossip. It can kill people softly, or drive them mad.
        Another weapon is envy.It destroys much of good or new. The book Bill is
        refering to I bought already a year or two ago. It describes wery much , but
        I am not very happy with the language. It is too dry, without any spirit or
        soul. It is evident, that it was written by people, who were educated in the
        past communist regime, where a person was only a statistical item. The
        writers do not care much about the reader. I would have writte it
        differently. I will touch this subject later in my article for Nase Rodina.
        Regards, Vladimir


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Janet Kozlay
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 4:07 AM
        Subject: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions


        Bill, I would like to thank you for posting your excerpts from "Slovak
        Family Traditions," which I recall having read from a previous post of
        yours, as well as the remarkable Grisak autobiography.

        My own research in this area has led me to conclude that there was a
        fairly
        common culture among the peasants throughout Central Europe regardless of
        their particular ethnicity or language. Nearly everything in your
        excerpts
        and in the Grisak work is described in Fél and Hofer's "Proper Peasants,"
        though they go into much greater detail and in the case of the excerpts
        are
        far more readable. Their book, based on an intensive study of a single
        village on the Hungarian Plain, is widely available and fairly
        inexpensive.
        Descriptions I have read of the culture of Germans who migrated to Hungary
        also do not appear to differ materially. I suspect the same is true of
        the
        peasant culture of surrounding regions. One would expect some variations
        from area to area, and even village to village, but in my view the
        commonality of the customs and traditions is far more striking. Just one
        example is the custom of men sleeping in the stables, while the women and
        children slept in the house. Others include the courtship rituals of
        young
        men, the violence that often occurred when a young man courted a girl out
        of
        his community, the tradition of young men drinking and dancing till the
        wee
        hours until they married and settled down, and the pathetic position of
        daughters-in-law in a household.

        I am looking forward to Vladimir's contributions and would be very
        interested in learning if he agrees.

        Janet





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      • johnqadam
        Nase rodina (Our Family) is published quarterly by the Czechoslovak Genealogical Society International (CGSI) PO Box 16225, St. Paul, MN 55116-0225. Nase
        Message 3 of 13 , Oct 3, 2004
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          Nase rodina (Our Family) is published quarterly by the Czechoslovak
          Genealogical Society International (CGSI) PO Box 16225, St. Paul, MN
          55116-0225. Nase rodina promotes genealogy of the ethnic groups that
          comprise Czechoslovakia as it was formed in 1918.
          http://www.cgsi.org/research.asp?i=7
        • Vladimir Bohinc
          Dear Bill, here http://www.cgsi.org/ I thought, everybody knows that :-) Join! Best regards, Vladimir ... From: Bill Tarkulich To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          Message 4 of 13 , Oct 3, 2004
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            Dear Bill,
            here http://www.cgsi.org/
            I thought, everybody knows that :-)
            Join!
            Best regards,
            Vladimir
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Bill Tarkulich
            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 12:45 PM
            Subject: RE: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions


            Hi Vladimir,
            How and where can we go about obtaining the publications of " Nase Rodina"?
            It sounds like a good read.
            Regards,
            Bill


            -----Original Message-----
            From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@...]
            Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 2:44 AM
            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions



            Dear Janet,
            I agree with everything, since these are more or less all facts. This is
            what one could count into Slavic culture. Since were are all Slavs, we have
            many things in common. Slavs in different cuntries ( in Europe)were
            naturally under influence of their master nations or neighbors, so you can
            find this in variations too. Villages or areas, which were awau from trade
            lines, were less exposed to such influences and kept their old customs
            longer. Many of the customs go far back into the pagan era, where there was
            no Christianity. Every village was and to a large extent still is a closed
            community, often with it's own, unwritten rules. A foreigner, or anyone
            "different' will have a hard time in it, unless he adopts and subdues. The
            most feared weapon is gossip. It can kill people softly, or drive them mad.
            Another weapon is envy.It destroys much of good or new. The book Bill is
            refering to I bought already a year or two ago. It describes wery much , but
            I am not very happy with the language. It is too dry, without any spirit or
            soul. It is evident, that it was written by people, who were educated in the
            past communist regime, where a person was only a statistical item. The
            writers do not care much about the reader. I would have writte it
            differently. I will touch this subject later in my article for Nase Rodina.
            Regards, Vladimir


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Janet Kozlay
            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 4:07 AM
            Subject: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions


            Bill, I would like to thank you for posting your excerpts from "Slovak
            Family Traditions," which I recall having read from a previous post of
            yours, as well as the remarkable Grisak autobiography.

            My own research in this area has led me to conclude that there was a
            fairly
            common culture among the peasants throughout Central Europe regardless of
            their particular ethnicity or language. Nearly everything in your
            excerpts
            and in the Grisak work is described in Fél and Hofer's "Proper Peasants,"
            though they go into much greater detail and in the case of the excerpts
            are
            far more readable. Their book, based on an intensive study of a single
            village on the Hungarian Plain, is widely available and fairly
            inexpensive.
            Descriptions I have read of the culture of Germans who migrated to Hungary
            also do not appear to differ materially. I suspect the same is true of
            the
            peasant culture of surrounding regions. One would expect some variations
            from area to area, and even village to village, but in my view the
            commonality of the customs and traditions is far more striking. Just one
            example is the custom of men sleeping in the stables, while the women and
            children slept in the house. Others include the courtship rituals of
            young
            men, the violence that often occurred when a young man courted a girl out
            of
            his community, the tradition of young men drinking and dancing till the
            wee
            hours until they married and settled down, and the pathetic position of
            daughters-in-law in a household.

            I am looking forward to Vladimir's contributions and would be very
            interested in learning if he agrees.

            Janet





            To unsubscribe from this group, go to
            http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
            SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com


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          • Jan Ammann
            Hello Everyone.....I have read this post with great interest. And would like to ask a question about ethnic/religious traditions or customs. My background is
            Message 5 of 13 , Oct 3, 2004
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              Hello Everyone.....I have read this post with great interest. And would like to ask a question about ethnic/religious traditions or customs. My background is Moravian, Austrian-Hungarian, and German. I am catholic and as a child when we went to church as a family, the men all sat on the right hand side and the women and children sat on the left hand side. This would be in the 1940's here in Texas. It then changed throughtout the years but I am not sure of the change date. Of course, my parents and my grandparents and aunts and uncles all spoke Moravian as did we children in those days. My grandmother would always say "Ti se Moravian" (no accent marks as they mess up the email sometimes) when someone would say we were czech or bohemian. She was very firm about this. To her, I suppose, being called something other than Moravian was not proper. We were all raised to be proud of our Moravian heritage. Of course, we all learned english also and by the time we went to school,
              moravian was ignored by all of us children and the older members of the family only spoke in moravian to each other. We even prayed in Moravian in our country church. We actually switched between latin and Moravian. The Our Father and Hail Mary was always in Moravian.

              This also was a country parish which was rather small. I can still remember the church with its white beadboard walls.......its beautiful gothic shaped stained windows which opened to the outside (no AC in those days). Sometimes, birds flew across the altar and we even saw mice scattering across the wooden floor at times. The statues were magnificent and they are the very same ones that are in the catholic church (polish community) where I attend today.

              We had lent.........we had ember days.........so much that is no longer. Of course, Lent is still in the church but the ember days are gone. The mass was in latin as were our prayer books. Also,,,,,when my older sister was married (early 1950's) the priest came to the house in the early morning. My mother draped a white sheet on the walls in one corner of our small living room and my sister, in her wedding dress, and her husband to be, kneeled there, surrounded by the parents, the priest in the corner facing them. He gave a blessing to the couple and to the parents. Then, he went back to the church where we all followed later on. I am supposing that this also came over from the old country. I have never seen this blessing enacted since that day. It, too, has disappeared.

              So, this post brought back a lot of memories for me. But I do hope someone can comment on the way we sat in the church. I am wondering if this custom did not come over from the old homeland when my family arrived here in the USA. Perhaps the blessing also did.

              Many thanks to all you members who make this list so interesting.

              Cheers, Aloysia

              Vladimir Bohinc <konekta@...> wrote:
              Dear Bill,
              here http://www.cgsi.org/
              I thought, everybody knows that :-)
              Join!
              Best regards,
              Vladimir
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Bill Tarkulich
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 12:45 PM
              Subject: RE: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions


              Hi Vladimir,
              How and where can we go about obtaining the publications of " Nase Rodina"?
              It sounds like a good read.
              Regards,
              Bill


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@...]
              Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 2:44 AM
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions



              Dear Janet,
              I agree with everything, since these are more or less all facts. This is
              what one could count into Slavic culture. Since were are all Slavs, we have
              many things in common. Slavs in different cuntries ( in Europe)were
              naturally under influence of their master nations or neighbors, so you can
              find this in variations too. Villages or areas, which were awau from trade
              lines, were less exposed to such influences and kept their old customs
              longer. Many of the customs go far back into the pagan era, where there was
              no Christianity. Every village was and to a large extent still is a closed
              community, often with it's own, unwritten rules. A foreigner, or anyone
              "different' will have a hard time in it, unless he adopts and subdues. The
              most feared weapon is gossip. It can kill people softly, or drive them mad.
              Another weapon is envy.It destroys much of good or new. The book Bill is
              refering to I bought already a year or two ago. It describes wery much , but
              I am not very happy with the language. It is too dry, without any spirit or
              soul. It is evident, that it was written by people, who were educated in the
              past communist regime, where a person was only a statistical item. The
              writers do not care much about the reader. I would have writte it
              differently. I will touch this subject later in my article for Nase Rodina.
              Regards, Vladimir


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Janet Kozlay
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 4:07 AM
              Subject: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions


              Bill, I would like to thank you for posting your excerpts from "Slovak
              Family Traditions," which I recall having read from a previous post of
              yours, as well as the remarkable Grisak autobiography.

              My own research in this area has led me to conclude that there was a
              fairly
              common culture among the peasants throughout Central Europe regardless of
              their particular ethnicity or language. Nearly everything in your
              excerpts
              and in the Grisak work is described in F�l and Hofer's "Proper Peasants,"
              though they go into much greater detail and in the case of the excerpts
              are
              far more readable. Their book, based on an intensive study of a single
              village on the Hungarian Plain, is widely available and fairly
              inexpensive.
              Descriptions I have read of the culture of Germans who migrated to Hungary
              also do not appear to differ materially. I suspect the same is true of
              the
              peasant culture of surrounding regions. One would expect some variations
              from area to area, and even village to village, but in my view the
              commonality of the customs and traditions is far more striking. Just one
              example is the custom of men sleeping in the stables, while the women and
              children slept in the house. Others include the courtship rituals of
              young
              men, the violence that often occurred when a young man courted a girl out
              of
              his community, the tradition of young men drinking and dancing till the
              wee
              hours until they married and settled down, and the pathetic position of
              daughters-in-law in a household.

              I am looking forward to Vladimir's contributions and would be very
              interested in learning if he agrees.

              Janet





              To unsubscribe from this group, go to
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            • William F Brna
              I well remember the days when the men and women sat on opposite sides of the church. The women (and children) sat on the left, facing the Blessed Virgin s
              Message 6 of 13 , Oct 3, 2004
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                I well remember the days when the men and women sat on opposite sides of
                the church. The women (and children) sat on the left, facing the Blessed
                Virgin's statue , and the men sat on the right, facing St. Joseph's
                statue. This was the custom, not only in the Slovak parish, but in the
                "Irish" parish where our family attended mass, when it was not convenient
                to travel to the Slovak parish (a seven mile trip). I also remember that
                everyone, men and women, dressed in their "Sunday best" when they went to
                mass. Not only did the men wear a suit, white shirt and tie, but they
                also wore hats. I don't know when the custom of sitting on opposite
                sides of the church was abandoned, but, as I recall, it was a gradual
                change.

                Bill Brna

                On Sun, 3 Oct 2004 09:32:18 -0700 (PDT) Jan Ammann
                <janammann@...> writes:
                >
                > Hello Everyone.....I have read this post with great interest. And
                > would like to ask a question about ethnic/religious traditions or
                > customs. My background is Moravian, Austrian-Hungarian, and German.
                > I am catholic and as a child when we went to church as a family,
                > the men all sat on the right hand side and the women and children
                > sat on the left hand side. This would be in the 1940's here in
                > Texas. It then changed throughtout the years but I am not sure of
                > the change date. Of course, my parents and my grandparents and aunts
                > and uncles all spoke Moravian as did we children in those days. My
                > grandmother would always say "Ti se Moravian" (no accent marks as
                > they mess up the email sometimes) when someone would say we were
                > czech or bohemian. She was very firm about this. To her, I suppose,
                > being called something other than Moravian was not proper. We were
                > all raised to be proud of our Moravian heritage. Of course, we all
                > learned english also and by the time we went to school,
                > moravian was ignored by all of us children and the older members of
                > the family only spoke in moravian to each other. We even prayed in
                > Moravian in our country church. We actually switched between latin
                > and Moravian. The Our Father and Hail Mary was always in Moravian.
                >
                > This also was a country parish which was rather small. I can still
                > remember the church with its white beadboard walls.......its
                > beautiful gothic shaped stained windows which opened to the outside
                > (no AC in those days). Sometimes, birds flew across the altar and
                > we even saw mice scattering across the wooden floor at times. The
                > statues were magnificent and they are the very same ones that are in
                > the catholic church (polish community) where I attend today.
                >
                > We had lent.........we had ember days.........so much that is no
                > longer. Of course, Lent is still in the church but the ember days
                > are gone. The mass was in latin as were our prayer books.
                > Also,,,,,when my older sister was married (early 1950's) the priest
                > came to the house in the early morning. My mother draped a white
                > sheet on the walls in one corner of our small living room and my
                > sister, in her wedding dress, and her husband to be, kneeled there,
                > surrounded by the parents, the priest in the corner facing them. He
                > gave a blessing to the couple and to the parents. Then, he went
                > back to the church where we all followed later on. I am supposing
                > that this also came over from the old country. I have never seen
                > this blessing enacted since that day. It, too, has disappeared.
                >
                > So, this post brought back a lot of memories for me. But I do hope
                > someone can comment on the way we sat in the church. I am wondering
                > if this custom did not come over from the old homeland when my
                > family arrived here in the USA. Perhaps the blessing also did.
                >
                > Many thanks to all you members who make this list so interesting.
                >
                > Cheers, Aloysia
                >
                > Vladimir Bohinc <konekta@...> wrote:
                > Dear Bill,
                > here http://www.cgsi.org/
                > I thought, everybody knows that :-)
                > Join!
                > Best regards,
                > Vladimir
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: Bill Tarkulich
                > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 12:45 PM
                > Subject: RE: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions
                >
                >
                > Hi Vladimir,
                > How and where can we go about obtaining the publications of " Nase
                > Rodina"?
                > It sounds like a good read.
                > Regards,
                > Bill
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@...]
                > Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 2:44 AM
                > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions
                >
                >
                >
                > Dear Janet,
                > I agree with everything, since these are more or less all facts.
                > This is
                > what one could count into Slavic culture. Since were are all
                > Slavs, we have
                > many things in common. Slavs in different cuntries ( in
                > Europe)were
                > naturally under influence of their master nations or neighbors, so
                > you can
                > find this in variations too. Villages or areas, which were awau
                > from trade
                > lines, were less exposed to such influences and kept their old
                > customs
                > longer. Many of the customs go far back into the pagan era, where
                > there was
                > no Christianity. Every village was and to a large extent still is
                > a closed
                > community, often with it's own, unwritten rules. A foreigner, or
                > anyone
                > "different' will have a hard time in it, unless he adopts and
                > subdues. The
                > most feared weapon is gossip. It can kill people softly, or drive
                > them mad.
                > Another weapon is envy.It destroys much of good or new. The book
                > Bill is
                > refering to I bought already a year or two ago. It describes wery
                > much , but
                > I am not very happy with the language. It is too dry, without any
                > spirit or
                > soul. It is evident, that it was written by people, who were
                > educated in the
                > past communist regime, where a person was only a statistical item.
                > The
                > writers do not care much about the reader. I would have writte it
                > differently. I will touch this subject later in my article for
                > Nase Rodina.
                > Regards, Vladimir
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: Janet Kozlay
                > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 4:07 AM
                > Subject: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions
                >
                >
                > Bill, I would like to thank you for posting your excerpts from
                > "Slovak
                > Family Traditions," which I recall having read from a previous
                > post of
                > yours, as well as the remarkable Grisak autobiography.
                >
                > My own research in this area has led me to conclude that there
                > was a
                > fairly
                > common culture among the peasants throughout Central Europe
                > regardless of
                > their particular ethnicity or language. Nearly everything in
                > your
                > excerpts
                > and in the Grisak work is described in Fél and Hofer's "Proper
                > Peasants,"
                > though they go into much greater detail and in the case of the
                > excerpts
                > are
                > far more readable. Their book, based on an intensive study of a
                > single
                > village on the Hungarian Plain, is widely available and fairly
                > inexpensive.
                > Descriptions I have read of the culture of Germans who migrated
                > to Hungary
                > also do not appear to differ materially. I suspect the same is
                > true of
                > the
                > peasant culture of surrounding regions. One would expect some
                > variations
                > from area to area, and even village to village, but in my view
                > the
                > commonality of the customs and traditions is far more striking.
                > Just one
                > example is the custom of men sleeping in the stables, while the
                > women and
                > children slept in the house. Others include the courtship
                > rituals of
                > young
                > men, the violence that often occurred when a young man courted a
                > girl out
                > of
                > his community, the tradition of young men drinking and dancing
                > till the
                > wee
                > hours until they married and settled down, and the pathetic
                > position of
                > daughters-in-law in a household.
                >
                > I am looking forward to Vladimir's contributions and would be
                > very
                > interested in learning if he agrees.
                >
                > Janet
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank
                > email to
                > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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              • Janet Kozlay
                I found a similar but not identical custom in a description of Ukrainian weddings, where the blessing was given by the couple s parents: “My two sisters and
                Message 7 of 13 , Oct 3, 2004
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                  I found a similar but not identical custom in a description of Ukrainian
                  weddings, where the blessing was given by the couple's parents:

                  “My two sisters and I were married in the Ukrainian tradition, in a
                  Ukrainian Catholic church in Detroit. One of the most poignant traditions is
                  the blessings of the parents. The young couple, before the marriage ceremony
                  meet at the bride's home to receive a blessing from the parents. They kneel
                  before both sets of parents and ask their blessing and permission to marry.
                  After the permission is given, the couple's wrists are tied by the parents
                  (one arm each) with an embroidered rushnyk. This is when most everyone
                  begins to cry...."

                  I found a similar description of parents' blessings in the morning in Polish
                  weddings.

                  A description of Slovak wedding traditions says that on the morning of the
                  wedding the bride and groom each, in their own homes, ask forgiveness from
                  their parents for any wrongs they may have done them and ask for their
                  blessing. This also seems to have been the case in Rusyn weddings.

                  I have found no such descriptions of morning blessings, either from a priest
                  or from the parents, for Hungarian households.

                  There are many wedding traditions that do seem to cross ethnic lines in
                  Central European countries, probably the most important of which was the
                  trading of the bride's wedding wreath for a married woman's head covering.

                  Janet


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Jan Ammann [mailto:janammann@...]
                  Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 11:32 AM
                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions


                  Hello Everyone.....I have read this post with great interest. And would
                  like to ask a question about ethnic/religious traditions or customs. My
                  background is Moravian, Austrian-Hungarian, and German. I am catholic and
                  as a child when we went to church as a family, the men all sat on the right
                  hand side and the women and children sat on the left hand side. This would
                  be in the 1940's here in Texas. It then changed throughtout the years but I
                  am not sure of the change date. Of course, my parents and my grandparents
                  and aunts and uncles all spoke Moravian as did we children in those days.
                  My grandmother would always say "Ti se Moravian" (no accent marks as they
                  mess up the email sometimes) when someone would say we were czech or
                  bohemian. She was very firm about this. To her, I suppose, being called
                  something other than Moravian was not proper. We were all raised to be
                  proud of our Moravian heritage. Of course, we all learned english also and
                  by the time we went to school,
                  moravian was ignored by all of us children and the older members of the
                  family only spoke in moravian to each other. We even prayed in Moravian in
                  our country church. We actually switched between latin and Moravian. The
                  Our Father and Hail Mary was always in Moravian.

                  This also was a country parish which was rather small. I can still remember
                  the church with its white beadboard walls.......its beautiful gothic shaped
                  stained windows which opened to the outside (no AC in those days).
                  Sometimes, birds flew across the altar and we even saw mice scattering
                  across the wooden floor at times. The statues were magnificent and they are
                  the very same ones that are in the catholic church (polish community) where
                  I attend today.

                  We had lent.........we had ember days.........so much that is no longer. Of
                  course, Lent is still in the church but the ember days are gone. The mass
                  was in latin as were our prayer books. Also,,,,,when my older sister was
                  married (early 1950's) the priest came to the house in the early morning.
                  My mother draped a white sheet on the walls in one corner of our small
                  living room and my sister, in her wedding dress, and her husband to be,
                  kneeled there, surrounded by the parents, the priest in the corner facing
                  them. He gave a blessing to the couple and to the parents. Then, he went
                  back to the church where we all followed later on. I am supposing that this
                  also came over from the old country. I have never seen this blessing
                  enacted since that day. It, too, has disappeared.

                  So, this post brought back a lot of memories for me. But I do hope someone
                  can comment on the way we sat in the church. I am wondering if this custom
                  did not come over from the old homeland when my family arrived here in the
                  USA. Perhaps the blessing also did.

                  Many thanks to all you members who make this list so interesting.

                  Cheers, Aloysia

                  Vladimir Bohinc <konekta@...> wrote:
                  Dear Bill,
                  here http://www.cgsi.org/
                  I thought, everybody knows that :-)
                  Join!
                  Best regards,
                  Vladimir
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Bill Tarkulich
                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 12:45 PM
                  Subject: RE: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions


                  Hi Vladimir,
                  How and where can we go about obtaining the publications of " Nase
                  Rodina"?
                  It sounds like a good read.
                  Regards,
                  Bill


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@...]
                  Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 2:44 AM
                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions



                  Dear Janet,
                  I agree with everything, since these are more or less all facts. This is
                  what one could count into Slavic culture. Since were are all Slavs, we
                  have
                  many things in common. Slavs in different cuntries ( in Europe)were
                  naturally under influence of their master nations or neighbors, so you can
                  find this in variations too. Villages or areas, which were awau from trade
                  lines, were less exposed to such influences and kept their old customs
                  longer. Many of the customs go far back into the pagan era, where there
                  was
                  no Christianity. Every village was and to a large extent still is a closed
                  community, often with it's own, unwritten rules. A foreigner, or anyone
                  "different' will have a hard time in it, unless he adopts and subdues. The
                  most feared weapon is gossip. It can kill people softly, or drive them
                  mad.
                  Another weapon is envy.It destroys much of good or new. The book Bill is
                  refering to I bought already a year or two ago. It describes wery much ,
                  but
                  I am not very happy with the language. It is too dry, without any spirit
                  or
                  soul. It is evident, that it was written by people, who were educated in
                  the
                  past communist regime, where a person was only a statistical item. The
                  writers do not care much about the reader. I would have writte it
                  differently. I will touch this subject later in my article for Nase
                  Rodina.
                  Regards, Vladimir


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Janet Kozlay
                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 4:07 AM
                  Subject: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions


                  Bill, I would like to thank you for posting your excerpts from "Slovak
                  Family Traditions," which I recall having read from a previous post of
                  yours, as well as the remarkable Grisak autobiography.

                  My own research in this area has led me to conclude that there was a
                  fairly
                  common culture among the peasants throughout Central Europe regardless
                  of
                  their particular ethnicity or language. Nearly everything in your
                  excerpts
                  and in the Grisak work is described in Fél and Hofer's "Proper
                  Peasants,"
                  though they go into much greater detail and in the case of the excerpts
                  are
                  far more readable. Their book, based on an intensive study of a single
                  village on the Hungarian Plain, is widely available and fairly
                  inexpensive.
                  Descriptions I have read of the culture of Germans who migrated to
                  Hungary
                  also do not appear to differ materially. I suspect the same is true of
                  the
                  peasant culture of surrounding regions. One would expect some
                  variations
                  from area to area, and even village to village, but in my view the
                  commonality of the customs and traditions is far more striking. Just
                  one
                  example is the custom of men sleeping in the stables, while the women
                  and
                  children slept in the house. Others include the courtship rituals of
                  young
                  men, the violence that often occurred when a young man courted a girl
                  out
                  of
                  his community, the tradition of young men drinking and dancing till the
                  wee
                  hours until they married and settled down, and the pathetic position of
                  daughters-in-law in a household.

                  I am looking forward to Vladimir's contributions and would be very
                  interested in learning if he agrees.

                  Janet





                  To unsubscribe from this group, go to
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                • nhasior@aol.com
                  I remember ember days in the past but cannot recall exactly what they were. Noreen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  Message 8 of 13 , Oct 3, 2004
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                    I remember ember days in the past but cannot recall exactly what they were.
                    Noreen


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Jan Ammann
                    Hello......I do remember part of what happened during the blessing for my sister and her future husband. It was for the parents to give permission for their
                    Message 9 of 13 , Oct 3, 2004
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                      Hello......I do remember part of what happened during the blessing for my sister and her future husband. It was for the parents to give permission for their children to marry. My sister and her bridegroom kneeled on the floor in front of the priest. My parents stood behind my sister and and the priest asked if they give permission for this couple to wed. Of course, they said yes. Then they asked the same of the bridgrooms parents. Then there were some prayers.

                      Of course, my future brother-in-law saw my sister in her wedding dress but I guess traditions were different back then.

                      Aloysia

                      Janet Kozlay <kozlay@...> wrote:
                      I found a similar but not identical custom in a description of Ukrainian
                      weddings, where the blessing was given by the couple's parents:

                      �My two sisters and I were married in the Ukrainian tradition, in a
                      Ukrainian Catholic church in Detroit. One of the most poignant traditions is
                      the blessings of the parents. The young couple, before the marriage ceremony
                      meet at the bride's home to receive a blessing from the parents. They kneel
                      before both sets of parents and ask their blessing and permission to marry.
                      After the permission is given, the couple's wrists are tied by the parents
                      (one arm each) with an embroidered rushnyk. This is when most everyone
                      begins to cry...."

                      I found a similar description of parents' blessings in the morning in Polish
                      weddings.

                      A description of Slovak wedding traditions says that on the morning of the
                      wedding the bride and groom each, in their own homes, ask forgiveness from
                      their parents for any wrongs they may have done them and ask for their
                      blessing. This also seems to have been the case in Rusyn weddings.

                      I have found no such descriptions of morning blessings, either from a priest
                      or from the parents, for Hungarian households.

                      There are many wedding traditions that do seem to cross ethnic lines in
                      Central European countries, probably the most important of which was the
                      trading of the bride's wedding wreath for a married woman's head covering.

                      Janet


                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Jan Ammann [mailto:janammann@...]
                      Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 11:32 AM
                      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions


                      Hello Everyone.....I have read this post with great interest. And would
                      like to ask a question about ethnic/religious traditions or customs. My
                      background is Moravian, Austrian-Hungarian, and German. I am catholic and
                      as a child when we went to church as a family, the men all sat on the right
                      hand side and the women and children sat on the left hand side. This would
                      be in the 1940's here in Texas. It then changed throughtout the years but I
                      am not sure of the change date. Of course, my parents and my grandparents
                      and aunts and uncles all spoke Moravian as did we children in those days.
                      My grandmother would always say "Ti se Moravian" (no accent marks as they
                      mess up the email sometimes) when someone would say we were czech or
                      bohemian. She was very firm about this. To her, I suppose, being called
                      something other than Moravian was not proper. We were all raised to be
                      proud of our Moravian heritage. Of course, we all learned english also and
                      by the time we went to school,
                      moravian was ignored by all of us children and the older members of the
                      family only spoke in moravian to each other. We even prayed in Moravian in
                      our country church. We actually switched between latin and Moravian. The
                      Our Father and Hail Mary was always in Moravian.

                      This also was a country parish which was rather small. I can still remember
                      the church with its white beadboard walls.......its beautiful gothic shaped
                      stained windows which opened to the outside (no AC in those days).
                      Sometimes, birds flew across the altar and we even saw mice scattering
                      across the wooden floor at times. The statues were magnificent and they are
                      the very same ones that are in the catholic church (polish community) where
                      I attend today.

                      We had lent.........we had ember days.........so much that is no longer. Of
                      course, Lent is still in the church but the ember days are gone. The mass
                      was in latin as were our prayer books. Also,,,,,when my older sister was
                      married (early 1950's) the priest came to the house in the early morning.
                      My mother draped a white sheet on the walls in one corner of our small
                      living room and my sister, in her wedding dress, and her husband to be,
                      kneeled there, surrounded by the parents, the priest in the corner facing
                      them. He gave a blessing to the couple and to the parents. Then, he went
                      back to the church where we all followed later on. I am supposing that this
                      also came over from the old country. I have never seen this blessing
                      enacted since that day. It, too, has disappeared.

                      So, this post brought back a lot of memories for me. But I do hope someone
                      can comment on the way we sat in the church. I am wondering if this custom
                      did not come over from the old homeland when my family arrived here in the
                      USA. Perhaps the blessing also did.

                      Many thanks to all you members who make this list so interesting.

                      Cheers, Aloysia

                      Vladimir Bohinc <konekta@...> wrote:
                      Dear Bill,
                      here http://www.cgsi.org/
                      I thought, everybody knows that :-)
                      Join!
                      Best regards,
                      Vladimir
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Bill Tarkulich
                      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 12:45 PM
                      Subject: RE: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions


                      Hi Vladimir,
                      How and where can we go about obtaining the publications of " Nase
                      Rodina"?
                      It sounds like a good read.
                      Regards,
                      Bill


                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@...]
                      Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 2:44 AM
                      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions



                      Dear Janet,
                      I agree with everything, since these are more or less all facts. This is
                      what one could count into Slavic culture. Since were are all Slavs, we
                      have
                      many things in common. Slavs in different cuntries ( in Europe)were
                      naturally under influence of their master nations or neighbors, so you can
                      find this in variations too. Villages or areas, which were awau from trade
                      lines, were less exposed to such influences and kept their old customs
                      longer. Many of the customs go far back into the pagan era, where there
                      was
                      no Christianity. Every village was and to a large extent still is a closed
                      community, often with it's own, unwritten rules. A foreigner, or anyone
                      "different' will have a hard time in it, unless he adopts and subdues. The
                      most feared weapon is gossip. It can kill people softly, or drive them
                      mad.
                      Another weapon is envy.It destroys much of good or new. The book Bill is
                      refering to I bought already a year or two ago. It describes wery much ,
                      but
                      I am not very happy with the language. It is too dry, without any spirit
                      or
                      soul. It is evident, that it was written by people, who were educated in
                      the
                      past communist regime, where a person was only a statistical item. The
                      writers do not care much about the reader. I would have writte it
                      differently. I will touch this subject later in my article for Nase
                      Rodina.
                      Regards, Vladimir


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Janet Kozlay
                      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 4:07 AM
                      Subject: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions


                      Bill, I would like to thank you for posting your excerpts from "Slovak
                      Family Traditions," which I recall having read from a previous post of
                      yours, as well as the remarkable Grisak autobiography.

                      My own research in this area has led me to conclude that there was a
                      fairly
                      common culture among the peasants throughout Central Europe regardless
                      of
                      their particular ethnicity or language. Nearly everything in your
                      excerpts
                      and in the Grisak work is described in F�l and Hofer's "Proper
                      Peasants,"
                      though they go into much greater detail and in the case of the excerpts
                      are
                      far more readable. Their book, based on an intensive study of a single
                      village on the Hungarian Plain, is widely available and fairly
                      inexpensive.
                      Descriptions I have read of the culture of Germans who migrated to
                      Hungary
                      also do not appear to differ materially. I suspect the same is true of
                      the
                      peasant culture of surrounding regions. One would expect some
                      variations
                      from area to area, and even village to village, but in my view the
                      commonality of the customs and traditions is far more striking. Just
                      one
                      example is the custom of men sleeping in the stables, while the women
                      and
                      children slept in the house. Others include the courtship rituals of
                      young
                      men, the violence that often occurred when a young man courted a girl
                      out
                      of
                      his community, the tradition of young men drinking and dancing till the
                      wee
                      hours until they married and settled down, and the pathetic position of
                      daughters-in-law in a household.

                      I am looking forward to Vladimir's contributions and would be very
                      interested in learning if he agrees.

                      Janet





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                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Jan Ammann
                      Hello Mr. Brna........Thank you for remembering what I remember. And, like you, I don t remember exactly when it changed. Yes, we were always dressed up.
                      Message 10 of 13 , Oct 3, 2004
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                        Hello Mr. Brna........Thank you for remembering what I remember. And, like you, I don't remember exactly when it changed. Yes, we were always dressed up. Daddy in a suit with all the accessories and a hat. My mother and my two sisters were equally done up in fou-fou-frilly type dresses with hats and gloves. Yes, gloves. The hats were usually the "bowler" type for us children with a ribbon hanging down the back part of the hat and touching our shoulders. Mother, however, had a more sedate hat....usually that sat on the top of her head and sometimes they came down on the sides. They were made of straw or velvet or some other fancy fabric........however, they all had a net that could be pulled down over the face.

                        Yes, it was a fine tradition. And sometimes I wish we could ressurect it, at least for one Sunday. Our shoes were called Baby Janes with a strap across the top and we had one in black patent leather and one in white patent leather. We shined them with vaseline. I smile when I think of it now. My mother used to braid my hair so tight that I believe that is why I have big eyes. I looked perpetually startled. And if I dared to whimper as she braided she would just pull those braids tighter. Sometimes, we even polished our nails with polish. Nothing bright or glaring........a soft rose or pink. However, because my sister was the oldest, she always got away with fire engine red nails and toes.

                        On Saturday night, mother would line up three enamel bowls of water on a bench either on the back porch (summertime) or in the kitchen when it was winter. The first bowl was where we leaned over and washed our hair. The second bowl was water to rinse the soap off. And the third bowl was also water to rinse but with a touch of vinegar added. I think that probably stripped off the last of the soap suds and our hair literally squeaked. Sometimes all three of us used the same bowls of water.

                        And when bathing (in a #3 washtub) we also sometimes bathed after each other. Water had to be pumped and carried to the house and heated on the kerosene stove so we had to make do. We also did everything in birth order. My elder sister went first, then me, and finally, our baby sister. I often laugh and tease her because she has an olive skin whereas my older sister and I have a fair skin. I tell her it was because she had to end up using "the somewhat dirty water" and that is why she has the darker skin. Also, the darkest hair.

                        I am sure this must sound strange to someone reading this who did not grow up in this type of environment but it was a wonderful way of life. The forties were war years and it was hard to make a living as farmers which our family was. As I grow older, I think of it more often and some of these lists do bring these memories back.

                        I ask forgiveness of list members who may not consider this proper on a genealogy list, however, it was a family custom......how we lived.......what we did........and, of course, family is genealogy. So the circle becomes complete.

                        Thank you for giving me this chance to reminisce.

                        Aloysia

                        William F Brna <wfbrna@...> wrote:
                        I well remember the days when the men and women sat on opposite sides of
                        the church. The women (and children) sat on the left, facing the Blessed
                        Virgin's statue , and the men sat on the right, facing St. Joseph's
                        statue. This was the custom, not only in the Slovak parish, but in the
                        "Irish" parish where our family attended mass, when it was not convenient
                        to travel to the Slovak parish (a seven mile trip). I also remember that
                        everyone, men and women, dressed in their "Sunday best" when they went to
                        mass. Not only did the men wear a suit, white shirt and tie, but they
                        also wore hats. I don't know when the custom of sitting on opposite
                        sides of the church was abandoned, but, as I recall, it was a gradual
                        change.

                        Bill Brna

                        On Sun, 3 Oct 2004 09:32:18 -0700 (PDT) Jan Ammann
                        <janammann@...> writes:
                        >
                        > Hello Everyone.....I have read this post with great interest. And
                        > would like to ask a question about ethnic/religious traditions or
                        > customs. My background is Moravian, Austrian-Hungarian, and German.
                        > I am catholic and as a child when we went to church as a family,
                        > the men all sat on the right hand side and the women and children
                        > sat on the left hand side. This would be in the 1940's here in
                        > Texas. It then changed throughtout the years but I am not sure of
                        > the change date. Of course, my parents and my grandparents and aunts
                        > and uncles all spoke Moravian as did we children in those days. My
                        > grandmother would always say "Ti se Moravian" (no accent marks as
                        > they mess up the email sometimes) when someone would say we were
                        > czech or bohemian. She was very firm about this. To her, I suppose,
                        > being called something other than Moravian was not proper. We were
                        > all raised to be proud of our Moravian heritage. Of course, we all
                        > learned english also and by the time we went to school,
                        > moravian was ignored by all of us children and the older members of
                        > the family only spoke in moravian to each other. We even prayed in
                        > Moravian in our country church. We actually switched between latin
                        > and Moravian. The Our Father and Hail Mary was always in Moravian.
                        >
                        > This also was a country parish which was rather small. I can still
                        > remember the church with its white beadboard walls.......its
                        > beautiful gothic shaped stained windows which opened to the outside
                        > (no AC in those days). Sometimes, birds flew across the altar and
                        > we even saw mice scattering across the wooden floor at times. The
                        > statues were magnificent and they are the very same ones that are in
                        > the catholic church (polish community) where I attend today.
                        >
                        > We had lent.........we had ember days.........so much that is no
                        > longer. Of course, Lent is still in the church but the ember days
                        > are gone. The mass was in latin as were our prayer books.
                        > Also,,,,,when my older sister was married (early 1950's) the priest
                        > came to the house in the early morning. My mother draped a white
                        > sheet on the walls in one corner of our small living room and my
                        > sister, in her wedding dress, and her husband to be, kneeled there,
                        > surrounded by the parents, the priest in the corner facing them. He
                        > gave a blessing to the couple and to the parents. Then, he went
                        > back to the church where we all followed later on. I am supposing
                        > that this also came over from the old country. I have never seen
                        > this blessing enacted since that day. It, too, has disappeared.
                        >
                        > So, this post brought back a lot of memories for me. But I do hope
                        > someone can comment on the way we sat in the church. I am wondering
                        > if this custom did not come over from the old homeland when my
                        > family arrived here in the USA. Perhaps the blessing also did.
                        >
                        > Many thanks to all you members who make this list so interesting.
                        >
                        > Cheers, Aloysia
                        >
                        > Vladimir Bohinc <konekta@...> wrote:
                        > Dear Bill,
                        > here http://www.cgsi.org/
                        > I thought, everybody knows that :-)
                        > Join!
                        > Best regards,
                        > Vladimir
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: Bill Tarkulich
                        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 12:45 PM
                        > Subject: RE: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions
                        >
                        >
                        > Hi Vladimir,
                        > How and where can we go about obtaining the publications of " Nase
                        > Rodina"?
                        > It sounds like a good read.
                        > Regards,
                        > Bill
                        >
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@...]
                        > Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 2:44 AM
                        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Dear Janet,
                        > I agree with everything, since these are more or less all facts.
                        > This is
                        > what one could count into Slavic culture. Since were are all
                        > Slavs, we have
                        > many things in common. Slavs in different cuntries ( in
                        > Europe)were
                        > naturally under influence of their master nations or neighbors, so
                        > you can
                        > find this in variations too. Villages or areas, which were awau
                        > from trade
                        > lines, were less exposed to such influences and kept their old
                        > customs
                        > longer. Many of the customs go far back into the pagan era, where
                        > there was
                        > no Christianity. Every village was and to a large extent still is
                        > a closed
                        > community, often with it's own, unwritten rules. A foreigner, or
                        > anyone
                        > "different' will have a hard time in it, unless he adopts and
                        > subdues. The
                        > most feared weapon is gossip. It can kill people softly, or drive
                        > them mad.
                        > Another weapon is envy.It destroys much of good or new. The book
                        > Bill is
                        > refering to I bought already a year or two ago. It describes wery
                        > much , but
                        > I am not very happy with the language. It is too dry, without any
                        > spirit or
                        > soul. It is evident, that it was written by people, who were
                        > educated in the
                        > past communist regime, where a person was only a statistical item.
                        > The
                        > writers do not care much about the reader. I would have writte it
                        > differently. I will touch this subject later in my article for
                        > Nase Rodina.
                        > Regards, Vladimir
                        >
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: Janet Kozlay
                        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 4:07 AM
                        > Subject: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions
                        >
                        >
                        > Bill, I would like to thank you for posting your excerpts from
                        > "Slovak
                        > Family Traditions," which I recall having read from a previous
                        > post of
                        > yours, as well as the remarkable Grisak autobiography.
                        >
                        > My own research in this area has led me to conclude that there
                        > was a
                        > fairly
                        > common culture among the peasants throughout Central Europe
                        > regardless of
                        > their particular ethnicity or language. Nearly everything in
                        > your
                        > excerpts
                        > and in the Grisak work is described in F�l and Hofer's "Proper
                        > Peasants,"
                        > though they go into much greater detail and in the case of the
                        > excerpts
                        > are
                        > far more readable. Their book, based on an intensive study of a
                        > single
                        > village on the Hungarian Plain, is widely available and fairly
                        > inexpensive.
                        > Descriptions I have read of the culture of Germans who migrated
                        > to Hungary
                        > also do not appear to differ materially. I suspect the same is
                        > true of
                        > the
                        > peasant culture of surrounding regions. One would expect some
                        > variations
                        > from area to area, and even village to village, but in my view
                        > the
                        > commonality of the customs and traditions is far more striking.
                        > Just one
                        > example is the custom of men sleeping in the stables, while the
                        > women and
                        > children slept in the house. Others include the courtship
                        > rituals of
                        > young
                        > men, the violence that often occurred when a young man courted a
                        > girl out
                        > of
                        > his community, the tradition of young men drinking and dancing
                        > till the
                        > wee
                        > hours until they married and settled down, and the pathetic
                        > position of
                        > daughters-in-law in a household.
                        >
                        > I am looking forward to Vladimir's contributions and would be
                        > very
                        > interested in learning if he agrees.
                        >
                        > Janet
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                        > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank
                        > email to
                        > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        >
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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • nhasior@aol.com
                        Aloysia, Thank you for your story. I do not think it was inappropriate for this list. i enjoyed it and am passing it on to my aunt and daughter. I remember
                        Message 11 of 13 , Oct 4, 2004
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                          Aloysia,
                          Thank you for your story. I do not think it was inappropriate for this list.
                          i enjoyed it and am passing it on to my aunt and daughter. I remember one
                          of my aunts, born in 1904, telling me that when she got all dressed up to go
                          out dancing, they were so poor that she used a tiny bit of shoe polish for
                          curling her eyelashes. i never forgot that.
                          Noreen


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • bill tarkulich
                          Regarding the segregation of men and women, I can speak only for the East of Slovakia, but I m fairly confident the following applies generally. For the most
                          Message 12 of 13 , Oct 4, 2004
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                            Regarding the segregation of men and women, I can speak only for the
                            East of Slovakia, but I'm fairly confident the following applies generally.

                            For the most part, 100 years ago in small villages, men and women
                            separately socialized ("Slovak Family Traditions"). I observed this
                            social segregation continued in America as well. They were hardly ever
                            seen together as a "couple", as we do today. This extended to the
                            church. If you look at the architecture of Greek Catholic churches
                            before 1945, it consisted of three spaces: the Sacristry/altar, Nave and
                            Babinec. The nave was located centrally and was where the men sat. The
                            "Babinec" or "babynets" was also called the "women's room", located
                            farthest from the altar.

                            I suspect that this tradition was modified in America since most
                            churches consisted of principally two sections, the nave (for the
                            congregants) and the altar (for the sacrament.) The "babinec" was
                            generally relegated to the role of a vestibule in America. Since room
                            separation wasn't logistically possible, dividing into two sections was
                            the next best thing.

                            As an aside, the congregants, except for the infirm generally stood
                            throughout the entire service, which could be as long as 3 hours.

                            If you attend an *Orthodox* service today (I married a Greek *Orthodox*
                            {not to be confused with Greek Catholic} and attend this church), you
                            will find the majority of people still "dress up." Men wear
                            conservative suits and women wear modest dresses.

                            Bill
                          • Armata, Joseph R. (JArmata)
                            I was in Poland in 1980 in a small village church where the sexes were still segregated: the women were on the left, men on the right. Luckily when I came in
                            Message 13 of 13 , Oct 4, 2004
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                              I was in Poland in 1980 in a small village church where the sexes were
                              still segregated: the women were on the left, men on the right.
                              Luckily when I came in I picked up on it and sat on the right side!

                              Joe
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