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RE: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited

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  • Caye Caswick
    Also found another discussion -- http://www.fortklock.com/bundling.htm which involved a thread including our very own Bill Tarkulich in RootsWeb s message
    Message 1 of 37 , Oct 1, 2004
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      Also found another discussion --

      http://www.fortklock.com/bundling.htm

      which involved a thread including our very own Bill
      Tarkulich in RootsWeb's message boards.


      Caye





      --- Caye Caswick <ccaswick@...> wrote:

      >
      > As suggested by another . . . it will work (and did
      > for me) if you highlight the link and copy it then
      > paste it into the Address window of your web
      > browser.
      > I agree, Janet, language challenged is a big
      > obstacle
      > -- imagine our ancestors doing it the opposite way.
      >
      > Caye
      >
      >
      >
      > --- Janet Kozlay <kozlay@...> wrote:
      >
      > > The list does look like it covers some interesting
      > > topics. It's too bad so
      > > many of us are language-challenged. There really
      > is
      > > a lot out there if we
      > > could only read it.
      > >
      > > By the way, I have been advised that the URL I
      > sent
      > > for the article does not
      > > work, and she is right. Why, I have no idea. I
      > > copied it directly from the
      > > article. The easiest way to find it is to search
      > on
      > > Kozlay for �The
      > > Writings of Eugene Kozlay: 19th-Century Hungarian
      > > �migr�." It should be the
      > > second entry in Google.
      > >
      > > Janet
      > >
      > >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: Caye Caswick [mailto:ccaswick@...]
      > > Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 1:46 PM
      > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > > Subject: RE: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Hey you guys . . . look what else I found . . .
      > >
      > >
      >
      http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/e/su/slavic/wofam1_00.html
      > >
      > > Those who can read Hungarian or other European
      > > languages may fare better than I . . . but I
      > > certainly
      > > understand the topic of all this research . . .
      > > pretty
      > > interesting looking stuff.
      > >
      > >
      > > Caye
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --- Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > > Janet,
      > > >
      > > > I'm surprised, given the tight control that most
      > > > small village residents
      > > > imposed on their citizens.
      > > >
      > > > You may want to read some excerpts I pulled from
      > > > "Slovak Family Traditions"
      > > > http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/traditions.htm
      >
      > > >
      > > > published by Vydavatelstvo Slovenskej akademie
      > on
      > > > this exact subject. It's
      > > > an interesting investigation done by an
      > > acknowledged
      > > > Slovak cultural
      > > > institution. I would not be so bold as to
      > assume
      > > it
      > > > holds true for all
      > > > villages, it is certainly interesting since the
      > > > research was done by Slovaks
      > > > in Slovakia.
      > > >
      > > > Bill
      > > >
      > > > -----Original Message-----
      > > > From: Janet Kozlay [mailto:kozlay@...]
      > > > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 8:38 PM
      > > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > > > Subject: RE: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Well, yes, most of it seemed to occur in small,
      > > > rural villages" in Hungary;
      > > > other encounters were in Budapest and on his way
      > > out
      > > > of Hungary as he fled
      > > > from the Austrians following the 1848-49 war. I
      > > > will say that he seemed to
      > > > be pursued as much as he was the pursuer.
      > > >
      > > > It is very difficult to find any information on
      > > > customary sexual behavior.
      > > > Ethnographers tend to avoid this subject
      > > altogether.
      > > > So there is no way to
      > > > know whether this behavior was common, or
      > whether,
      > > > as my translator said, he
      > > > was a very hot Hungarian." But the overall
      > sense
      > > > from the diaries was that
      > > > premarital and extramarital sex was extremely
      > > common
      > > > in the first half of
      > > > the 19th century.
      > > >
      > > > Although he seemed to grow up a bit after he
      > > > immigrated to America in
      > > > 1849-50, my communication with other descendants
      > > of
      > > > these imigris suggests
      > > > that they developed a reputation for their open
      > > > sexual proclivities.
      > > >
      > > > I would be especially interested in learning
      > > whether
      > > > this was more common
      > > > among the nobility than the peasantry, but such
      > > > information probably just
      > > > does not exist. Our manuscripts offer a very
      > rare
      > > > glimpse into one
      > > > individual's experiences which may or may not be
      > > > applicable to the wider
      > > > culture.
      > > >
      > > > Janet
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > -----Original Message-----
      > > > From: Bill Tarkulich
      > > > [mailto:bill.tarkulich@...]
      > > > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 6:49 PM
      > > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > > > Subject: RE: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
      > > >
      > > > I cannot imagine this happening in a small,
      > rural
      > > > village. Did he live in a
      > > > heavily populated area, city or town? Bill
      > > >
      > > > -----Original Message-----
      > > > From: Janet Kozlay [mailto:kozlay@...]
      > > > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 4:41 PM
      > > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > > > Subject: RE: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > I fear my husband's great-grandfather, in the
      > > 1840s,
      > > > might have been
      > > > responsible for a number of these unwanted
      > > > pregnancies, much to our dismay.
      > > > His diaries make it clear that he was very
      > > sexually
      > > > active--with just about
      > > > anybody in a skirt--serfs, village "gooses" who
      > > had
      > > > moved to the big city,
      > > > neighbors, sisters of boyfriends, even the
      > > pastor's
      > > > wife. One letter to him
      > > > suggests that he had fathered at least one
      > child,
      > > > though she didn't seem
      > > > that unhappy about it: "Your memory will be
      > > > forever...because that time, you
      > > > know....I will love him, he will be the only
      > > object
      > > > of my love, because I
      > > > will see you in him....." And he seemed pleased
      > > to
      > > > think that he might have
      > > > impregnated a girl in another casual encounter.
      > > Not
      > > > a pretty picture when
      > > > the results would have been so drastic for the
      > > > mother and the baby.
      > > > One poem he wrote was about a girl who sent her
      > > > newborn baby to the
      > > > father telling him either to keep the little
      > girl
      >
      === message truncated ===




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    • Bill Tarkulich
      Caye, I scanned in the entire 25 page summary of Tradicie slovenskej rodiny. Zost. Marta Botikova, Sona Svecova, Kornelia Jakubikova. Brtislava: Veda, 1997.
      Message 37 of 37 , Oct 6, 2004
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        Caye,
        I scanned in the entire 25 page summary of
        Tradicie slovenskej rodiny. Zost. Marta Botikova, Sona Svecova, Kornelia
        Jakubikova. Brtislava: Veda, 1997. 242p. [HQ622.4.T733 1997 Regenstein
        stacks]
        which is referenced in the URL you provided below. If you want it, I'll
        email it to you privately.
        Regards,
        Bill

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Caye Caswick [mailto:ccaswick@...]
        Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 2:46 PM
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited




        Hey you guys . . . look what else I found . . .

        http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/e/su/slavic/wofam1_00.html

        Those who can read Hungarian or other European
        languages may fare better than I . . . but I certainly understand the topic
        of all this research . . . pretty interesting looking stuff.


        Caye



        --- Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:

        > Janet,
        >
        > I'm surprised, given the tight control that most
        > small village residents
        > imposed on their citizens.
        >
        > You may want to read some excerpts I pulled from
        > "Slovak Family Traditions"
        > http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/traditions.htm
        >
        > published by Vydavatelstvo Slovenskej akademie on
        > this exact subject. It's
        > an interesting investigation done by an acknowledged
        > Slovak cultural
        > institution. I would not be so bold as to assume it
        > holds true for all
        > villages, it is certainly interesting since the
        > research was done by Slovaks
        > in Slovakia.
        >
        > Bill
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Janet Kozlay [mailto:kozlay@...]
        > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 8:38 PM
        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: RE: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
        >
        >
        >
        > Well, yes, most of it seemed to occur in “small,
        > rural villages" in Hungary;
        > other encounters were in Budapest and on his way out
        > of Hungary as he fled
        > from the Austrians following the 1848-49 war. I
        > will say that he seemed to
        > be pursued as much as he was the pursuer.
        >
        > It is very difficult to find any information on
        > customary sexual behavior.
        > Ethnographers tend to avoid this subject altogether.
        > So there is no way to
        > know whether this behavior was common, or whether,
        > as my translator said, he
        > was a “very hot Hungarian." But the overall sense
        > from the diaries was that
        > premarital and extramarital sex was extremely common
        > in the first half of
        > the 19th century.
        >
        > Although he seemed to “grow up“ a bit after he
        > immigrated to America in
        > 1849-50, my communication with other descendants of
        > these émigrés suggests
        > that they developed a reputation for their open
        > sexual proclivities.
        >
        > I would be especially interested in learning whether
        > this was more common
        > among the nobility than the peasantry, but such
        > information probably just
        > does not exist. Our manuscripts offer a very rare
        > glimpse into one
        > individual's experiences which may or may not be
        > applicable to the wider
        > culture.
        >
        > Janet
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Bill Tarkulich
        > [mailto:bill.tarkulich@...]
        > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 6:49 PM
        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: RE: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
        >
        > I cannot imagine this happening in a small, rural
        > village. Did he live in a
        > heavily populated area, city or town? Bill
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Janet Kozlay [mailto:kozlay@...]
        > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 4:41 PM
        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: RE: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
        >
        >
        > I fear my husband's great-grandfather, in the 1840s,
        > might have been
        > responsible for a number of these unwanted
        > pregnancies, much to our dismay.
        > His diaries make it clear that he was very sexually active--with just
        > about anybody in a skirt--serfs, village "gooses" who had
        > moved to the big city,
        > neighbors, sisters of boyfriends, even the pastor's
        > wife. One letter to him
        > suggests that he had fathered at least one child,
        > though she didn't seem
        > that unhappy about it: "Your memory will be
        > forever...because that time, you
        > know....I will love him, he will be the only object
        > of my love, because I
        > will see you in him....." And he seemed pleased to
        > think that he might have
        > impregnated a girl in another casual encounter. Not
        > a pretty picture when
        > the results would have been so drastic for the
        > mother and the baby.
        > One poem he wrote was about a girl who sent her
        > newborn baby to the
        > father telling him either to keep the little girl or
        > pay her. And if he
        > chose to do neither, she would see him sleeping in
        > jail. None of these
        > options, though, would seem to spare the baby the
        > social consequences of
        > being illegitimate.
        >
        > Janet
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@...]
        > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 1:49 PM
        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
        >
        >
        > Dear Andrea,
        > I would expect, that they either die in childhood
        > due to no appropriate care
        > or they disappeared, if not legitimized. However, if legitimized, then
        > their birth record should have been properly modified /
        > corrected. More
        > illegitimate children were born in the second half
        > of the century because of
        > the industrial revolution and also emergence of the
        > middle class. For the
        > first, some girls moved away from home to work in
        > the factory and many began
        > to live a more loose life. For the second, middle
        > class needed maids. Many
        > maids. I found very many illegitimate children in
        > villages surrounding a Spa
        > for example. Or where the military Garrisons were,
        > or the railroad was
        > built. A traditional village out of reach of
        > civilisation did not have many.
        > Almost none. Many were just killed before or just
        > after the birth. A book
        > about the traditions writes about the screams of a
        > young mother echoing
        > through the valley in the middle of the night, when
        > she was killing her baby
        > inside with a woodden stick. She knew, she would be
        > doomed. In Romania, even
        > not so many years ago, women introduced plastic
        > tubes into their wombs and
        > walked with that around, just to provoke abortion.
        > Nobody really wanted such
        > kids. In bigger towns, there were orphanages, where
        > the children could be
        > discretely given away and then the state gave them
        > to other families. I
        > think, I wrote about this already. In those times,
        > Vienna had about 10000
        > (ten thousand) illegitimate births per year. I
        > counted them. Best regards,
        > Vladimir
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Andrea Vangor
        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 7:19 PM
        > Subject: Re: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
        >
        >
        > Someday I will go back over the church records
        > from Rank and Opina, to see
        > what happens to people who are born out of wedlock
        > and whose parents
        > subsequently marry. Or, at least, who acquire a
        > legal father upon their
        > mother's marriage.
        >
        > If such a person is described as honestus/a, it
        > would suggest that
        > legitimacy can be acquired after the fact.
        >
        > My own recollection is that more out-of-wedlock
        > births occurred later in
        > the
        > 19th century, after the time when records were
        > usually written in Magyar
        > rather than Latin anyway.
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        >
        === message truncated ===




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