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Re: Hospes

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  • Andrea Vangor
    Dear Vlad and group, I can point you toward some information about the hospes term here: http://mek.oszk.hu/01900/01955/html/index1000.html The term
    Message 1 of 1 , Sep 11, 2004
      Dear Vlad and group,

      I can point you toward some information about the "hospes" term here: http://mek.oszk.hu/01900/01955/html/index1000.html

      The term originated in the Middle Ages. Centuries later it was used in 18th century Slovakia, when most of the peasantry had been reduced back to serfdom according to my sources. This happened after the suppression of a peasant revolt some time earlier. So I am trying to figure out what a "hospes" was in the context of more recent times. Apparently he would have had some freedoms that were not granted to most villagers until after the reforms of Emperor Joseph in 1785, which by the way were implemented rather slowly in Hungary if not defied outright by Magyar nobles.
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Vladimir Bohinc
      To: Andrea Vangor
      Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 10:41 AM
      Subject: Re: Inhonestus


      Dear Andrea,
      As far as I know, in those times,a "Pan" was either the Landlord, the Priest or some official or a Doctor or maybe a Teacher, but ordinary people did not use the term Pan among themselves.
      As to the privileges of the Hospes; the only privilege I am aware of was, that in some cases, they did not have to pay the same taxes for couple of years, before they became fully productive for the Landlord.
      In a village, the only one, who had privileges was the Mayor.
      However, there was another segment of the serfs, who were called "Libertini". They were free from serfdom. They usually bought themselves out of the serfdom. From this status, there is a slovak surname Slobodnik.
      Best regards,
      Vladimir

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Andrea Vangor
      To: Vladimir Bohinc
      Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 11:33 AM
      Subject: Re: Inhonestus


      Dear Vlad,

      This Barbara Vangor may have been a real professional prostitute, living in what seems to have been a good-sized town compared to local villages. If I remember correctly, her family were living in a small place, perhaps Keczer Peklen, but she had moved to Keczer Kostolyan (forgive the spelling). I had the impression that the latter was a larger place, maybe from some old maps.

      I don't take the word honestus to mean respectable -- I am using the word respectable to mean common people, like ordinary people today, who are not members of the elite but who are not in bad standing with their peers or the authorities. In some societies there is a special title for such people, like "Goodman" in 17th century England and the American colonies. What such titles generally meant was that the people were not indentured servants, transients, criminals, tinkers, beggars, etc. but people of some standing among their own kind.

      Do you know if Slovak serfs (later peasants) used any honorific at all in addressing one another? Did they use the terms Pan and Pani or some other ordinary title? Or were they usually addressed by given names?

      The closest thing in our country would have been Black slaves, who were never addressed as Mr. or Mrs., much less Master and Mistress (like General Robert E. Lee, who was called "Mars" Bobby). Many lived in conditions of near-serfdom and might be known affectionately as "Uncle" and "Aunt" by their white owners. You may not know that we have a famous brand of pancake mix in this country that is still popular enough to survive its political incorrectness, that is, "Aunt Jemima" -- no one would dare give such a name to a product today, I assure you.

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Vladimir Bohinc
      To: Andrea Vangor
      Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 2:18 AM
      Subject: Re: Inhonestus


      Dear Andrea,
      I can not imagine a small community to tolerate a professional prostitute. They may only have been in larger towns with lots of military.
      I see, you are using the term "respectable", seemingly translated from "honestus". This is not correct.
      The term "respectable" was used in a word "Spettabilis", but only for the Nobles. They were respected.
      All peasants, if they were legitimate, were given the status "honestus". This does not mean they were respected or that their social status was anyhow elevated above others ( whish seems to me to be the real motive behind looking for this explanation) . Another respected person among the serfs was the Mayor, but if he was not noble, then no such special remark was there.
      Vladimir

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Andrea Vangor
      To: Vladimir Bohinc
      Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 10:19 AM
      Subject: Re: Inhonestus


      Dear Vlad,

      From what I have learned about the Rom, the couple in this record were probably married to other spouses at ages nine and eleven if not younger. They went through the forms of baptism and marriage to please their non-gypsy patrons and get gifts from them. I found records for a Rom named Zubaly Pesta who was the declared father of any number of local babies... fooling the villagers and hiding their private family business being major priorities for Romany people.

      While we are on this indelicate subject off the list, I am very curious about a Vangor woman, one of my distant possible cousins, who had three illegitimate children during the 1840's. She was described with the term "scorta" in a couple of their birth records. Would this mean merely that her morals were loose, or that she was in fact a professional prostitute?

      The woman, who was from a respectable peasant (Vangor) family in a small local village, disappeared from the records with her surviving daughter, unfortunately.

      Repeated illegitimacies do seem to be rare until the 1880's -- social decay or railroad workers? Why did the girls prefer these fly-by-night guys to the village boys?

      Thanks, Andrea
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Vladimir Bohinc
      To: Andrea Vangor
      Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 12:44 AM
      Subject: Inhonestus


      Dear Andrea,
      This issue gave me no peace of mind, so I went and researched my photo data base and found the attached record.
      I do not know how to make this available to all. You sure do.
      I would just like to state again, that the term honestus refers only to the legitimacy.
      Maybe one day I will find a marriage of Honestus Juvenus Zingarus too.
      This one is from 1800, Nachac parish.
      Best regards,
      Vladimir

      I am sure, you will enjoy the reading:-)
      It says, that the bride was "inhonesta" and also "deflorata", meaning, she was illegitimate and also not a virgin any more.
      That honestus or honesta has nothing to do with "deflorata" status is proven by the fact, that the term "hoestus" or "honesta" is also being used for widowers or widows.



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      Tato sprava bola preverena antivirusovym systemom NOD32.
      http://www.eset.sk


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