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[S-R] Re: "Honestus"

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  • Frank
    ... context of ... mean only ... her ... In Hungary the official language of the church registers was Latin, but Protestant * and early Greek Catholic
    Message 1 of 4 , Sep 11, 2004
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      --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Andrea Vangor" <drav@o...>
      wrote:
      > The word I am struggling with here is "context". In the specific
      context of
      > church records, especially marriage records, does honestus/honesta
      mean only
      > that the individual was born legitimate or does it refer to his or
      her
      > social standing or personal respectability?
      >
      > Vladimir has cast his vote for the first option.

      In Hungary the official language of the church registers was Latin,
      but Protestant * and early Greek Catholic registers were the
      exceptions until 1836. Registers were in written in Hungarian
      1836-1849.
      After the failed Hungarian revolt (1848-1849) Austrians banned the use
      of Hungarian in registers, and introduced Latin again.
      With the establishment of the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy (1867-1918)
      registers were written in Hungarian again.

      * e.g., Lutheran Church parish registers (1601-1944) for Kez^marok,
      Slovakia, formerly Késmárk (H) Käsmarkt (G) Szepes, Zips, Spis^,
      Hungary.
      Text in German and Hungarian.


      Before WW I, Slovakia was part of Upper Hungary (Felvidék).
      Exactly when were these above parish church records written in Slovak
      ?
      Post-1895.

      Some parish churches kept duplicate copies of the records.
      Druhopisy (i.e. second writing) was a duplicate copy known as the
      'bishop's copy'. So a duplicate of the original record may have been
      sent elsewhere.
      Some years have both parish records and "bishop's copies". Other years
      have only "bishop's copies", others only the parish registers. That
      can explain why a record may not be available at the parish but still
      be available elsewhere.
      >From 1828 the parish was obliged to make copies of entries and send
      them to archives, so some records were preserved in duplicate.


      >
      > This reminds me of a similar question about the term "hospes".
      Which in the
      > context of church records simply means that the person came from
      outside the
      > area. He might be a real foreigner or merely not a local. In other
      > contexts, the term means "guest".

      honestus (L) = c^estny' (Sk)
      guest of honor = c^estny' host' (Sk)

      Interestingly, in Latin a hospes (hospitis) was an
      occupational term for an "innkeeper".
      An inn is an establishment for lodging and entertainment of travelers
      i.e., guests.

      >However, to complicate matters, the term
      > is used (as far as I know with my limited grasp of the subject)
      mainly in
      > the 18th century, when it frequently referred to people who had been
      invited
      > in to re-populate a region after the expulsion of the Turks. These
      "guests"
      > had more privilages than the local serf populations, for example
      being free
      > to choose their landlord and adopt different professions. So a man
      called a
      > "hospes" such as my ancestor Samuel Szabo enjoyed certain privileges
      as a
      > commoner compared to other villagers.

      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Frank" <frankur@w...>
      > To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 12:59 AM
      > Subject: [S-R] Re: "Honestus"
      >
      >
      > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Andrea Vangor" <drav@o...>
      > wrote:
      > > Well, this disagrees completely with what Vladimir said (no, I am
      > NOT
      > > starting a "let's you and him fight," just working through the
      > information).
      > > It's the crux of my questions, restated here.
      > >
      > > 1. Are the terms honestus/honesta used to indicate social
      standing,
      > > especially a generic status of respectability for people of lower
      > social
      > > classes. Or,
      > >
      > > 2. Do the terms simply mean that someone was born legitimate
      > (Vlad's
      > > position as I understand it.). Or,
      > >
      > > 3. As a compromise, are you a respectable peasant if you are
      > legitimate.
      > > So,
      > >
      > > 4. Would the town drunk or prostitute be called honestus/honesta
      if
      > he or
      > > she were born legitimate?
      > >
      > > I will add that I have not myself seen these terms applied to
      > persons other
      > > than commoners. Not nobles or Rom. I am inclined to submit to
      the
      > judgment
      > > of Vladimir, who has no doubt seen thousands of these records:
      that
      > the
      > > terms are applied in a way that departs from their strict sense.
      > Most
      > > legal/social terms tend to be applied in a different sense than
      > strict
      > > construction.
      >
      > Still a matter of context.
      > Different terms were used for designating social status and rank in
      > society.
      > For example, a. Titles for Nobility and Clergy and b. Titles for
      > Commoners.
      >
      > In R.C. parish church records the same template was used to
      > designate legitimacy or illegitimacy in birth records, only the
      > languages changed.
      >
      > Czech parish church records were often trilingual (Latin, Czech,
      > German)
      >
      > Legitimate/Illegitimate
      > legitimatus/illegitmus (L)
      > t?rv?es/t?v?telen (H)
      > ehelich/unehelich (G)
      > s'lubny/nies'lubny (P)
      >
      > In a modern Latin-German dictionary
      >
      > honesta=ehrenhaft=ehrlich (=honorably=honest)
      > honestamentum=Schmuck (= smart)
      > honestas=Ehre=Ehrbarkeit=Ehrlichkeit (=honor=respectable=honesty)
      >
      >
      > Frank K
      >
      >
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: "Frank" <frankur@w...>
      > > To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
      > > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 6:58 PM
      > > Subject: [S-R] Re: "Honestus"
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Andrea Vangor" <drav@o...>
      > > wrote:
      > > > Do we have any consensus as to the meaning of the terms
      "honestus"
      > > and
      > > > "honesta" that occur in church records written in Latin?
      > > >
      > > > Do the terms mean that the person is a respectable member of the
      > > community,
      > > > or merely that he or she is of legitimate birth? Or, is it some
      > > kind of
      > > > generic low-level honorific for peasants?
      > >
      > > Andrea,
      > >
      > > You don't need consensus but fact as you noted above in your
      query.
      > >
      > > Term indicating social status or rank and having nothing to do
      with
      > > one's legitimacy under canon law.
      > > Example, used to address a farmer from a small town.
      > >
      > > honestus (L)
      > > honest, respectable, honorable (E)
      > > c^estny', ?primny' (Sk)
      > > uczciwy (P)
      > >
      > > honest.us ADJ 1 1 NOM S M POS
      > > honestus, honesta, honestum ADJ
      > > distinguished, reputable, respected, honorable, upright, honest;
      > > worthy;
      > >
      > > honest.a ADJ 1 1 NOM S F POS
      > > honest.a ADJ 1 1 ABL S F POS
      > > honest.a ADJ 1 1 NOM P N POS
      > > honest.a ADJ 1 1 ACC P N POS
      > > honestus, honesta, honestum ADJ
      > > distinguished, reputable, respected, honorable, upright, honest;
      > > worthy;
      > > honest.a V 1 1 PRES ACTIVE IMP 2 S
      > > honesto, honestare, honestavi, honestatus V
      > > honour (with); adorn, grace;
      > >
      > >
      > > Frank K
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
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