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Re: [S-R] "Honestus"

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  • Vladimir Bohinc
    Dear Andrea, Quite often one or more children were born illegitimate before the parents eventually married ( or at least the mother got maried with someone).
    Message 1 of 37 , Sep 9, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear Andrea,
      Quite often one or more children were born illegitimate before the parents eventually married ( or at least the mother got maried with someone). In such cases, there usually is an added note with the birth record of the child, that this particular child was legitimized later by a subsequent marriage ( usually on the day of marriage)
      Interestingly, I do not recall any specific "labelling" of illegitimate born spouses. The only way, how the priest could say that in a proper and "understandable" manner, was, that he noted only the name of the mother of the spouse. This I have seen often.
      Vladimir

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Andrea Vangor
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 10:13 PM
      Subject: Re: [S-R] "Honestus"


      My idea of consensus is one based on real facts, so this nails it, Vladimir.
      Thanks! I wonder now what term would apply to an illegitimate person being
      married. Which leads to another question. Given that some babies born out
      of wedlock were adopted in some fashion when their parents were married,
      taking their father's name whether or not he was the birth parent, would
      that individual be described later as legitimate?


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Vladimir Bohinc" <konekta@...>
      To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 12:41 PM
      Subject: Re: [S-R] "Honestus"


      >
      > Dear Andrea,
      > The term honestus only means legitimate. When the latin was changed to
      slovak, the same meaning was written as:
      > " s poctive suloze", which means from the honest copulation ( or laying in
      bed together)
      > German records follow similar rule, so they use the words: ' ehelicher
      Sohn" for a son, born in wedlock or legitimate.
      > The only respectable members of the community ( parish), were the
      Landlords and other Nobles and later teachers and other officials and
      priests, but the term honestus was never used for describing them as such.
      > Since this is a historical fact, no consensus is needed.
      > Best regards,
      > Vladimir
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Andrea Vangor
      > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 9:06 PM
      > Subject: [S-R] "Honestus"
      >
      >
      > Do we have any consensus as to the meaning of the terms "honestus" and
      > "honesta" that occur in church records written in Latin?
      >
      > Do the terms mean that the person is a respectable member of the
      community,
      > or merely that he or she is of legitimate birth? Or, is it some kind of
      > generic low-level honorific for peasants?
      >
      >
      >
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    • Bill Tarkulich
      Caye, I scanned in the entire 25 page summary of Tradicie slovenskej rodiny. Zost. Marta Botikova, Sona Svecova, Kornelia Jakubikova. Brtislava: Veda, 1997.
      Message 37 of 37 , Oct 6, 2004
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        Caye,
        I scanned in the entire 25 page summary of
        Tradicie slovenskej rodiny. Zost. Marta Botikova, Sona Svecova, Kornelia
        Jakubikova. Brtislava: Veda, 1997. 242p. [HQ622.4.T733 1997 Regenstein
        stacks]
        which is referenced in the URL you provided below. If you want it, I'll
        email it to you privately.
        Regards,
        Bill

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Caye Caswick [mailto:ccaswick@...]
        Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 2:46 PM
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited




        Hey you guys . . . look what else I found . . .

        http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/e/su/slavic/wofam1_00.html

        Those who can read Hungarian or other European
        languages may fare better than I . . . but I certainly understand the topic
        of all this research . . . pretty interesting looking stuff.


        Caye



        --- Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:

        > Janet,
        >
        > I'm surprised, given the tight control that most
        > small village residents
        > imposed on their citizens.
        >
        > You may want to read some excerpts I pulled from
        > "Slovak Family Traditions"
        > http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/traditions.htm
        >
        > published by Vydavatelstvo Slovenskej akademie on
        > this exact subject. It's
        > an interesting investigation done by an acknowledged
        > Slovak cultural
        > institution. I would not be so bold as to assume it
        > holds true for all
        > villages, it is certainly interesting since the
        > research was done by Slovaks
        > in Slovakia.
        >
        > Bill
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Janet Kozlay [mailto:kozlay@...]
        > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 8:38 PM
        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: RE: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
        >
        >
        >
        > Well, yes, most of it seemed to occur in “small,
        > rural villages" in Hungary;
        > other encounters were in Budapest and on his way out
        > of Hungary as he fled
        > from the Austrians following the 1848-49 war. I
        > will say that he seemed to
        > be pursued as much as he was the pursuer.
        >
        > It is very difficult to find any information on
        > customary sexual behavior.
        > Ethnographers tend to avoid this subject altogether.
        > So there is no way to
        > know whether this behavior was common, or whether,
        > as my translator said, he
        > was a “very hot Hungarian." But the overall sense
        > from the diaries was that
        > premarital and extramarital sex was extremely common
        > in the first half of
        > the 19th century.
        >
        > Although he seemed to “grow up“ a bit after he
        > immigrated to America in
        > 1849-50, my communication with other descendants of
        > these émigrés suggests
        > that they developed a reputation for their open
        > sexual proclivities.
        >
        > I would be especially interested in learning whether
        > this was more common
        > among the nobility than the peasantry, but such
        > information probably just
        > does not exist. Our manuscripts offer a very rare
        > glimpse into one
        > individual's experiences which may or may not be
        > applicable to the wider
        > culture.
        >
        > Janet
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Bill Tarkulich
        > [mailto:bill.tarkulich@...]
        > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 6:49 PM
        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: RE: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
        >
        > I cannot imagine this happening in a small, rural
        > village. Did he live in a
        > heavily populated area, city or town? Bill
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Janet Kozlay [mailto:kozlay@...]
        > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 4:41 PM
        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: RE: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
        >
        >
        > I fear my husband's great-grandfather, in the 1840s,
        > might have been
        > responsible for a number of these unwanted
        > pregnancies, much to our dismay.
        > His diaries make it clear that he was very sexually active--with just
        > about anybody in a skirt--serfs, village "gooses" who had
        > moved to the big city,
        > neighbors, sisters of boyfriends, even the pastor's
        > wife. One letter to him
        > suggests that he had fathered at least one child,
        > though she didn't seem
        > that unhappy about it: "Your memory will be
        > forever...because that time, you
        > know....I will love him, he will be the only object
        > of my love, because I
        > will see you in him....." And he seemed pleased to
        > think that he might have
        > impregnated a girl in another casual encounter. Not
        > a pretty picture when
        > the results would have been so drastic for the
        > mother and the baby.
        > One poem he wrote was about a girl who sent her
        > newborn baby to the
        > father telling him either to keep the little girl or
        > pay her. And if he
        > chose to do neither, she would see him sleeping in
        > jail. None of these
        > options, though, would seem to spare the baby the
        > social consequences of
        > being illegitimate.
        >
        > Janet
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@...]
        > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 1:49 PM
        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
        >
        >
        > Dear Andrea,
        > I would expect, that they either die in childhood
        > due to no appropriate care
        > or they disappeared, if not legitimized. However, if legitimized, then
        > their birth record should have been properly modified /
        > corrected. More
        > illegitimate children were born in the second half
        > of the century because of
        > the industrial revolution and also emergence of the
        > middle class. For the
        > first, some girls moved away from home to work in
        > the factory and many began
        > to live a more loose life. For the second, middle
        > class needed maids. Many
        > maids. I found very many illegitimate children in
        > villages surrounding a Spa
        > for example. Or where the military Garrisons were,
        > or the railroad was
        > built. A traditional village out of reach of
        > civilisation did not have many.
        > Almost none. Many were just killed before or just
        > after the birth. A book
        > about the traditions writes about the screams of a
        > young mother echoing
        > through the valley in the middle of the night, when
        > she was killing her baby
        > inside with a woodden stick. She knew, she would be
        > doomed. In Romania, even
        > not so many years ago, women introduced plastic
        > tubes into their wombs and
        > walked with that around, just to provoke abortion.
        > Nobody really wanted such
        > kids. In bigger towns, there were orphanages, where
        > the children could be
        > discretely given away and then the state gave them
        > to other families. I
        > think, I wrote about this already. In those times,
        > Vienna had about 10000
        > (ten thousand) illegitimate births per year. I
        > counted them. Best regards,
        > Vladimir
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Andrea Vangor
        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 7:19 PM
        > Subject: Re: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
        >
        >
        > Someday I will go back over the church records
        > from Rank and Opina, to see
        > what happens to people who are born out of wedlock
        > and whose parents
        > subsequently marry. Or, at least, who acquire a
        > legal father upon their
        > mother's marriage.
        >
        > If such a person is described as honestus/a, it
        > would suggest that
        > legitimacy can be acquired after the fact.
        >
        > My own recollection is that more out-of-wedlock
        > births occurred later in
        > the
        > 19th century, after the time when records were
        > usually written in Magyar
        > rather than Latin anyway.
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        >
        === message truncated ===




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