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Re: [S-R] "Honestus"

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  • Andrea Vangor
    But the term is used for males also. Is it suposed to indicate that the person is entering a first marriage? ... From: Janet Kozlay To:
    Message 1 of 37 , Sep 9, 2004
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      But the term is used for males also. Is it suposed to indicate that the
      person is entering a first marriage?

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Janet Kozlay" <kozlay@...>
      To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 12:29 PM
      Subject: RE: [S-R] "Honestus"


      > I'm sure you're referring to the "honest virgin" bit. I suspect this was
      > used for any bride who wasn't visibly pregnant, or had already given birth
      > illegitimately. It means honorable or respectable. And it wasn't used
      just
      > for peasants. You also find it for the nobility.
      > Janet
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Andrea Vangor [mailto:drav@...]
      > Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 2:06 PM
      > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [S-R] "Honestus"
      >
      >
      > Do we have any consensus as to the meaning of the terms "honestus" and
      > "honesta" that occur in church records written in Latin?
      >
      > Do the terms mean that the person is a respectable member of the
      community,
      > or merely that he or she is of legitimate birth? Or, is it some kind of
      > generic low-level honorific for peasants?
      >
      >
      >
      >
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    • Bill Tarkulich
      Caye, I scanned in the entire 25 page summary of Tradicie slovenskej rodiny. Zost. Marta Botikova, Sona Svecova, Kornelia Jakubikova. Brtislava: Veda, 1997.
      Message 37 of 37 , Oct 6, 2004
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        Caye,
        I scanned in the entire 25 page summary of
        Tradicie slovenskej rodiny. Zost. Marta Botikova, Sona Svecova, Kornelia
        Jakubikova. Brtislava: Veda, 1997. 242p. [HQ622.4.T733 1997 Regenstein
        stacks]
        which is referenced in the URL you provided below. If you want it, I'll
        email it to you privately.
        Regards,
        Bill

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Caye Caswick [mailto:ccaswick@...]
        Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 2:46 PM
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited




        Hey you guys . . . look what else I found . . .

        http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/e/su/slavic/wofam1_00.html

        Those who can read Hungarian or other European
        languages may fare better than I . . . but I certainly understand the topic
        of all this research . . . pretty interesting looking stuff.


        Caye



        --- Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:

        > Janet,
        >
        > I'm surprised, given the tight control that most
        > small village residents
        > imposed on their citizens.
        >
        > You may want to read some excerpts I pulled from
        > "Slovak Family Traditions"
        > http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/traditions.htm
        >
        > published by Vydavatelstvo Slovenskej akademie on
        > this exact subject. It's
        > an interesting investigation done by an acknowledged
        > Slovak cultural
        > institution. I would not be so bold as to assume it
        > holds true for all
        > villages, it is certainly interesting since the
        > research was done by Slovaks
        > in Slovakia.
        >
        > Bill
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Janet Kozlay [mailto:kozlay@...]
        > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 8:38 PM
        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: RE: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
        >
        >
        >
        > Well, yes, most of it seemed to occur in “small,
        > rural villages" in Hungary;
        > other encounters were in Budapest and on his way out
        > of Hungary as he fled
        > from the Austrians following the 1848-49 war. I
        > will say that he seemed to
        > be pursued as much as he was the pursuer.
        >
        > It is very difficult to find any information on
        > customary sexual behavior.
        > Ethnographers tend to avoid this subject altogether.
        > So there is no way to
        > know whether this behavior was common, or whether,
        > as my translator said, he
        > was a “very hot Hungarian." But the overall sense
        > from the diaries was that
        > premarital and extramarital sex was extremely common
        > in the first half of
        > the 19th century.
        >
        > Although he seemed to “grow up“ a bit after he
        > immigrated to America in
        > 1849-50, my communication with other descendants of
        > these émigrés suggests
        > that they developed a reputation for their open
        > sexual proclivities.
        >
        > I would be especially interested in learning whether
        > this was more common
        > among the nobility than the peasantry, but such
        > information probably just
        > does not exist. Our manuscripts offer a very rare
        > glimpse into one
        > individual's experiences which may or may not be
        > applicable to the wider
        > culture.
        >
        > Janet
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Bill Tarkulich
        > [mailto:bill.tarkulich@...]
        > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 6:49 PM
        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: RE: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
        >
        > I cannot imagine this happening in a small, rural
        > village. Did he live in a
        > heavily populated area, city or town? Bill
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Janet Kozlay [mailto:kozlay@...]
        > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 4:41 PM
        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: RE: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
        >
        >
        > I fear my husband's great-grandfather, in the 1840s,
        > might have been
        > responsible for a number of these unwanted
        > pregnancies, much to our dismay.
        > His diaries make it clear that he was very sexually active--with just
        > about anybody in a skirt--serfs, village "gooses" who had
        > moved to the big city,
        > neighbors, sisters of boyfriends, even the pastor's
        > wife. One letter to him
        > suggests that he had fathered at least one child,
        > though she didn't seem
        > that unhappy about it: "Your memory will be
        > forever...because that time, you
        > know....I will love him, he will be the only object
        > of my love, because I
        > will see you in him....." And he seemed pleased to
        > think that he might have
        > impregnated a girl in another casual encounter. Not
        > a pretty picture when
        > the results would have been so drastic for the
        > mother and the baby.
        > One poem he wrote was about a girl who sent her
        > newborn baby to the
        > father telling him either to keep the little girl or
        > pay her. And if he
        > chose to do neither, she would see him sleeping in
        > jail. None of these
        > options, though, would seem to spare the baby the
        > social consequences of
        > being illegitimate.
        >
        > Janet
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@...]
        > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 1:49 PM
        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
        >
        >
        > Dear Andrea,
        > I would expect, that they either die in childhood
        > due to no appropriate care
        > or they disappeared, if not legitimized. However, if legitimized, then
        > their birth record should have been properly modified /
        > corrected. More
        > illegitimate children were born in the second half
        > of the century because of
        > the industrial revolution and also emergence of the
        > middle class. For the
        > first, some girls moved away from home to work in
        > the factory and many began
        > to live a more loose life. For the second, middle
        > class needed maids. Many
        > maids. I found very many illegitimate children in
        > villages surrounding a Spa
        > for example. Or where the military Garrisons were,
        > or the railroad was
        > built. A traditional village out of reach of
        > civilisation did not have many.
        > Almost none. Many were just killed before or just
        > after the birth. A book
        > about the traditions writes about the screams of a
        > young mother echoing
        > through the valley in the middle of the night, when
        > she was killing her baby
        > inside with a woodden stick. She knew, she would be
        > doomed. In Romania, even
        > not so many years ago, women introduced plastic
        > tubes into their wombs and
        > walked with that around, just to provoke abortion.
        > Nobody really wanted such
        > kids. In bigger towns, there were orphanages, where
        > the children could be
        > discretely given away and then the state gave them
        > to other families. I
        > think, I wrote about this already. In those times,
        > Vienna had about 10000
        > (ten thousand) illegitimate births per year. I
        > counted them. Best regards,
        > Vladimir
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Andrea Vangor
        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 7:19 PM
        > Subject: Re: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
        >
        >
        > Someday I will go back over the church records
        > from Rank and Opina, to see
        > what happens to people who are born out of wedlock
        > and whose parents
        > subsequently marry. Or, at least, who acquire a
        > legal father upon their
        > mother's marriage.
        >
        > If such a person is described as honestus/a, it
        > would suggest that
        > legitimacy can be acquired after the fact.
        >
        > My own recollection is that more out-of-wedlock
        > births occurred later in
        > the
        > 19th century, after the time when records were
        > usually written in Magyar
        > rather than Latin anyway.
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        >
        === message truncated ===




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