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37325RE: RE: Lindvay update - more confused

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  • curtbocha
    Nov 17, 2013
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       Nina,

       

      You wrote: "I find it odd that they didn't marry in either of their own towns. It makes me wonder if they were running off together. The records in Rudnik are Latin/Slovak but the records in Novacany were in Hungarian. So I'm wondering if Maria was actually Hungarian and not Slovakian. "

       

      During this period many individuals or families moved from villages to provincial cities as well as emmigrated to the U.S. and other countries.  Though they were born in these villages, you do not know how long they lived there or age when they left, or even if their families moved as well.  If they were married in a church it is not too likely they are "running off" together.  Perhaps Kosice had become "their own" town.  They lived, married,  and had their daughter there before emmigrating.

       

      There is also no reason to suspect Maria was Hungarian.  Almost all parish records were kept in Latin or Hungarian, which were the official languages of record, but were not the spoken languages of most ethnic Slovaks.

       

      Curt B.



      ---In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, <nina.smith.m@...> wrote:

      Curt,


      They were married in Kosice and that is also where they had daughter Maria. However, neither of them were from Kosice. Albert was from Rudnik, and Maria was from Novacany. Both are small towns outside of Kosice. I find it odd that they didn't marry in either of their own towns. It makes me wonder if they were running off together. 


      The records in Rudnik are Latin/Slovak but the records in Novacany were in Hungarian. So I'm wondering if Maria was actually Hungarian and not Slovakian. 


      I did not know that it was common for Norbert to be changed to Albert. I expected to find his original name to be Albertus or something similar.  So that's really what threw me off.


      Thank you for the info.



      ---In slovak-roots@yahoogroups.com, <curt67boc@...> wrote:

       Nina,

      In reply to your extended query regarding Lindvay.

       

      What you are finding is somewhat more complicated than many researchers, but not at all unusual.  Remember that death certificates, tombstones and census records in the U.S. are often in serious error since an inquiring officer just writes down what someone under stress reports to them.  Oftentimes, the person reports from bad memory of just doesn't know and guesses because they feel obligated to answer a question.  And on occasion they purposely decieve for reasons we can only guess. Among immigrants there were oftentimes problems of language and understanding as well.

       

      The records that are almost always exacting and correct are the records of birth and baptism with place and the reporting of parentage.  You have almost certainly found the correct birth records.

      First name changes are frequent upon immigration to the U.S.  Norbertus to Albert, and Franciscus, or more likely Frantisek to Frank are common.

       

      The reporting of Frank as brother to Albert in the census is probably just an error.  Perhaps the census taker and reporter didn't even speak the same language.  Frank and Albert are much more likely both children of fathers who are cousins, but resided in the same family home in Rudnik. Their more distant relationship would not be an impediment to marriage with Albert's daughter Maria.

       

      Exactly, what is the town near Kosice you can't find where you mention  the marriage took place??  Earlier you said they were married in Kosice.

       

      Curt B.



      ---In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, <nina.smith.m@...> wrote:

      I posted a few weeks ago about my problems with Lindvay research. I've just
      found new info which has actually made me even MORE confused.

      My ggg grandparent's came from around Kosice, Hungary (now Slovakia) to Van
      Meter, PA in the late 1880s. Their names were Albert Lindway and Maria
      (Bernat)... or WERE they?

      Albert died in 1907 in the Darr Mine diaster which killed over 200 men. His
      headstone and death certificate state that he was 47 years old when he
      died. No birth date or year was written anywhere. The census data has
      various birth years written for him, from 1861 to 1864. His headstone is
      written in Slovak.

      His wife Maria supplied the info for Albert's death certificate. Maria came
      to America after Albert, and had their baby, also named Maria, about 1 yr
      old, with her. I have yet to find any immigration records for either of
      them.

      The parents listed on Albert's death certificate are "Andy Lindway" and
      something that looks like "Kovck Krencrika."

      In the 1900 census, there is another person living with Albert and Mary and
      their children, Frank Lindway, listed as Albert's brother, but 20 years
      younger. This Frank went on to marry Albert and Mary's daughter, Mary, in
      1904. If we are to believe the census, this would make Frank young Mary's
      own uncle. I am waiting on Frank's death certificate in hope's that
      parent's names are listed. Frank died in 1913.

      I recently discovered a baptism record in Rudnik, Slovakia (close to
      Kosice) for a NORBERTUS Lindvay, born Aug 1860. Parents are GEORGIUS
      Lindvay and Franciska Kolvek.

      I also found that this Norbert went on to marry a Maria Bernath in Kosice
      in 1886 which is when Albert and Mary state they were married in the US
      census.

      I also found that this Norbert and Maria had a child, Maria, in Kosice in
      Feb 1887 which is when I know Mary Lindway was born, based on US records.

      So I had strong evidence to believe that Norbert was actually my Albert.
      Why would he change his name from Norbert to Albert?? And why is his
      father's name written as "Andy" when if it was actually Georgius? It would
      also mean that he was 48 years old when he died, and not 47 as it says on
      his headstone and death certificate. So I still wasn't sure...

      Today I got an email from a priest in PA who sent me a picture of the death
      register of the church that Albert and Mary attended in PA. It showed
      Albert's death and listed his place of birth as Rudnok (now "Rudnik"). I
      finally had a city for him, which matched up again to that Norbert baptism
      record. But this record again listed Andreas as Albert's father, not
      Georgius. This info was probably provided again by Mary. How could she not
      know the father of her husband? But this record listed his mother's name as
      Francisca Kolvek, which again matches the Norbert record.

      I have looked through the Rudnik baptisms from 1859--1865 and there are no
      Albertus Lindvays and it is a very small town.

      I have looked at all the children's names that Georgius and Franciska had
      (13) and nothing close to "Albert."

      Now it gets even more confusing. Frank Lindway, the 20-year-younger brother
      of Albert... Was he really a brother? 20 years is a big difference.
      Especially since Albert was one of the last of 13 children. I thought maybe
      the mother died and the father remarried and Frank is really a
      half-brother. I am still waiting on Frank's death record and have also
      asked the same priest if he can find anything in that registry.

      But I just found a baptism record in Rudnik, IN THE SAME HOUSE that Norbert
      was born, for a Franciscus Lindvay in May 1881, which is when I know Frank
      Lindway was born, based on US records. His parents however, are NOT
      Georgius and Franciska. They are listed as Andreas Lindvay and Maria Kozel.
      But they are living in the same house that Norbert was born. Who are these
      people? Why does Albert claim this Frank to be his brother if neither of
      Frank's parents are Albert's parents? I thought maybe, somehow, Georgius
      was Andreas (which would explain why Andreas is written on the death record
      for Albert) but I looked up the marriage of Andreas and Mary and they were
      married in 1869 with him only being 22 years old. So it is not possible. I
      thought maybe Andreas was a sibling of Albert (making Frank a nephew),
      which would explain why he is living in the same house, but they did not
      have any children names Andreas or anything remotely similar.

      Can anyone make sense of this?

      Also, does anyone know the city listed in this marriage record for Maria
      Bernath? It should be located around Kosice but I am not finding it on a
      map.

      Thanks for any help!! It is much appreciated.

      ~Nina


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