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27130Re: [S-R] help

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  • Ben Sorensen
    Jul 5, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      Wow, Mike, there is alot here to answer! I will reply to each in kind...
      _Any other rules that have non or a few exceptions?_

      Many- actually.  The grammar for pure Slovak is extensive and almost never changes according to the models. There are three genders, and each gender has a model word to explain the 14 declentions- 7 singular, and 7 plural.  Some have built in exceptions, and foreign words present thier own problems, but the rules are everstanding. This is why Slovak is considered an INFLECTED language.
      Also, the pronunciation of letters NEVER changes, in stark contrast to English. Bernolak's rule, to emphasise this, said "write it how you hear it." (This rule doesn't exactly apply anymore...)

      _a dialect called Goral_
      And just south and often surrounding this dialect you will find Spis, Liptov, and Saris. O yes, and Rusyn....  Just to make it even more fun :-) Some of the dialects "bleed" into the other areas... and Saris seems to be the most used for "eastern dialects" in Slovak media- but I have only experience and no numbers to verify this.

      _I have also been told because of the education system and mass media that the dialects are in danger of being lost to a singular Lingua Slovakia._

      The people in Central Slovakia would say that the pure Slovak accent is dissappearing- replaced by the Bratislava accent. You can still hear the differences when travelling in SK- much like the difference between Massachusettes and North Carolina.

      _ It might be asked is there is a rule to these dialect rules. It is the pronunciation, grammar, syntax, or unique word creation that separates the different Slovak dialects from one another?_

      There is no all-encompassing rules to the dialects on the whole.  You can find some that are dialect-specific... but it is the USE (that almost seems to be discretionary) and application of those rules that can also tell someone from which village they are from. The dialects differ from pure Slovak and from each other in pronunciation, grammar, syntax, and thier own words.  Podpolanie would say that "They are" this way: Oni sa.... In Slovak: Oni su....  The Slovak word for potato is zemiak. In Spis: grula. L'avica (a political LEFT) and lavica (a writing desk) are almost indistinguishable in BA, but in Zvolenska Slatina you can hear how a L' is supposed to sound.


      How do I see the word? :-) Predsa, po slovensky! :-) I see Slovak as the most beautiful language, and Podpoliansky as the most beautiful incarnation of it. BTW- the Slovaks call a German "nemec."  It comes from the word for mumbler or gibberish- speaker. When Germans spoke, they didn't understand the "gibberish," and said that the people were "nemi..." (unintelligble). Nemi-nemec-Nemecko (Germany in Slovak). :-) Fun fact.
      Ben


       


       



      ________________________________
      From: Michael Mojher <mgmojher@...>
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Mon, July 5, 2010 1:17:50 AM
      Subject: Re: [S-R] help

       
      Sorry Ben for the Bill.
      So, it is always the first syllable that is accented (except in the use of a dialect). Any other rules that have non or a few exceptions?

      I have seen a dialect map of Slovakia. It showed 40 some dialects. In the area of my ancestral villages of Hromos and Plavnica it was a dialect called Goral. From what I understand that dialect was spoken across the Carpathian Mountains in Poland also. It appears "social circles" at one time were not so concerned about political affiliations. Rather those that shared a common economy because of the geography were linked via the dialect spoken. Even today my relatives have spoken of how they have heard a Slovak dialect that was complete foreign and not understood by them. I have also been told because of the education system and mass media that the dialects are in danger of being lost to a singular Lingua Slovakia.

      As a concept a dialect must have rules, or else it would be gibberish. The dialects are because of a different set of rules to the norm of the dominant language or any other dialect. It might be asked is there is a rule to these dialect rules. It is the pronunciation, grammar, syntax, or unique word creation that separates the different Slovak dialects from one another?

      Thomas Klimek Ward wrote a wonderful little book entitled People of the Word: A Synopsis of Slovak History. The "People of the Word" can have a couple of interpretations. For Ward the Word was the Bible and how the territory that is now Slovakia was where the first Christian church was built in Nitra in the 800's. For me the word is Slovak. On my many trips I have heard Slovaks say they thought they had the most beautiful spoken language. Which I am sure others would gladly debate theirs is. But to have such pride in ones language says something about how important that language is to the Slovaks.

      Ben. As a student of Slovak how do you see the "Word"?

      From: Ben Sorensen
      Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 8:21 PM
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [S-R] help

      Sorry Mike this is Ben :-)

      In Slovak, the accent is ALWAYS on the first syllable- unless it is a dialect word. The rule for the accent in pure Slovak has NO EXCEPTIONS. When you speak in dialect, there are no rules. :-)
      Ben

      ________________________________
      From: Michael Mojher <mgmojher@...>
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 10:14:55 PM
      Subject: Re: [S-R] help

      Thanks Bill. Nice to have your expertise. The had part is finding a Slovak village that has something near that pronunciation.
      Accent on the 1st or 2nd?

      From: Ben Sorensen
      Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 12:53 PM
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [S-R] help

      Hey there- Sudince would be said "Soo-deen-tse" with the last syllable being close to "say" but without the hard "y" at the end. soo- to match "look" and deen- to match "dean," and "say."
      Ben

      ________________________________
      From: Betty Kleimann <dartlady1956@...>
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sat, July 3, 2010 4:17:59 PM
      Subject: [S-R] help

      i have found out that my grandfather was fromback then Nagybrezsnyice or now a days called Breznica. i have a feeling this is it. any clues for records from that area? thanks
      --- On Sat, 7/3/10, Michael Mojher <mgmojher@...> wrote:

      From: Michael Mojher <mgmojher@...>
      Subject: Re: [S-R] Kiro or Kero
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Saturday, July 3, 2010, 11:52 AM

      Tom,
      Wish I spoke Slovak so I could give you the pronunciation. I do know that in Slovak there are no silent letters. My best try would be, "Sue - din - c".
      Here are the ways Sudince has been spelled through its history. Since it was called Osod from 1863 to 1920, during the life time of your relative being born, I would say Sudince is not your Suedna.
      Sudince KA/BC hont.
      1773 Eössöd, Sedimitz [!], Sudnice, 1786 Oeschöd, Sedinecz, 1808 Össöd, Sudince, 1863, 1888, 1913 Ösöd, 1873–1882, 1892–1907 Ősöd, 1920 Šudince, Sudince, 1927– Sudince

      From: Tom Fox
      Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2010 8:11 AM
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [S-R] Kiro or Kero

      Mike,

      Thanks! How do you think 'Sudince' might sound to an American writing it down from a Slovak's lips?

      Tom

      ________________________________
      From: Michael Mojher <mgmojher@...>
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tue, June 29, 2010 12:31:10 PM
      Subject: Re: [S-R] Kiro or Kero

      Tom,
      Anther possibility for Suedna: Sudince, Krupina District in Banska Bystrica Region.

      From: Tom Fox
      Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 5:41 PM
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [S-R] Kiro or Kero

      Hello Bill,

      Sorry for the delay. I am running a basketball camp which is a bit hectic.

      Byzantine church is correct. The first few children were all baptized in Byzantine Catholic church.

      I do understand about the reference to the A-H Empire, but wrote that to explain how Mike Kero answered every question about his roots on paperwork between 1900 and 1940.

      There is no question he spoke Russian. He eventually learned English, but Russian was his native language.

      I do believe that the reference to "Suedna" as his palce of origin is 100% correct. It was the ONLY placename ever mentioned and it was on his naturalization papers, which many years of genelaogy have shown (me, at least) to be the most reliable source - as compared to census, marriage, birth records etc. Besides it is the ONLY time a placename was mentioned. Unlikely to be made up. Plus, it is the only time he mentioned the port of departure (Bremen) and the ships's name (Ressetland).

      I have checked Ellis Island, I have checked census records and every family record. My thought, and it is only a thought, is that "Suedna" was heard by an American writing it down. On a map of Slovakia, I see a town called Svidnik, which is called on one web site, "Zuydnegh." Is it possible this might sound Suedna to an American writing down the man's answer? I understand I am taking a leap, but I have to start somewhere. I have what I have.

      I am very appreciative of your help and that of the entire group, and can only hope I may be of assistance to others down the road.

      Regards,

      Tom Fox

      ________________________________
      From: Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...>
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sun, June 27, 2010 2:57:36 PM
      Subject: RE: [S-R] Kiro or Kero

      Hello Tom. Let's start with getting the facts. I think the information you
      have is quite twisted and incorrect.

      There are no Greek Orthodox in Slovakia (well, maybe one or two...) and
      Russian was hardly ever an identified ethnic group. Where and when did you
      get this information on church and ethnicity? Getting the time context of
      your information is critical since the region was in flux for so long.

      In 1900, the area of Slovakia was Ruled by Hungary as was western Ukraine.
      Poland was ruled by Austria as the Galacia province. Forget about the
      Austro-Hungary reference - it is useless in genealogy research -
      Austro-Hungary was the outward manifestation of foreign policy and military.
      Internal affairs remained separately governed and documented by respective
      country.

      Could it be that your Greek Orthodox of Russian Ethnicity is actually Greek
      Catholic (today's Byzantine Catholic), ethnic Rusyn? In Slovakia, for the
      most part the congregants of the Greek Catholic church were ethnic Rusyn.
      http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06744a.htm

      Carpatho-Rusyns lived in Eastern Slovakia, Southern Poland and Western
      Ukraine. They are presently grouped as Carpatho-Rusyn, Lemko, Boyko and
      Hucul. Other than Rusyn, today many self-identify as Ukrainian, and many
      converted to Orthodox (Russian.)

      You absolutely positively have to have his village of origin if you want
      success.
      http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/ancestral_village.htm

      Have you examined the Ellis island ship manifests?
      http://www.stevemorse.org/

      Have you written for a copy of his immigration file?
      http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/ins_foia_petitions.htm

      Learn about Rusyns:
      http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/many_things_rusyn.htm

      Bill

      -----Original Message-----
      From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of Tom Fox
      Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 2:03 PM
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [S-R] Kiro or Kero

      My wife's grandfather arrived about 1900 and settled in Elizabeth, NJ using
      the name "Kiro," which eventually became Kero. He was a rather secretive
      quiet man who spoke Russian and was a member of the Greek Orthodox Church.
      He married a Polish girl. The early children were baptized G.O. and were not
      sent to Polish schools.

      A recent ancestry DNA test suggest he was 90% Slovakian. The only placename
      I have is "Suedna." (written on a naturalization paper probably by an
      American). All other mentions were always "Austrian-Hungary" type things.

      Can anyone help with the surname or placename or suggest avenues to search?

      Regards,

      Tom Fox

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