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16925Re: [S-R] Extent of Ottoman Empire in Upper Hungary (Slovakia)

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  • Michael Mojher
    May 7 4:08 PM
    • 0 Attachment
      Helene,
      It was your message about Dr. Sutherland's reference to the Plavci and Plavec that got me investigating them years ago. My ancestal village of Hromos is only 3 km from Plavec and Plavnica.
      I wrote Dr. Nora Berend in England, she lectures on the Cumani. I told her of Dr. Sutherland's reference. She said that she has never in research found such a reference.
      If you can ask Dr. Sutherland where he learned of the Plavci and Plav town connection I would very much be interested in it.
      The Historical Atlas of Central Europe, Map 6: Central Europe, ca. 1250 refer to the Cumani in Hungary as the Kuns. The settled predominately in central Hungary between the Ipel' and Tisza rivers.
      The Avars are interesting. Their Avar Khanate in the north was in the Slovaks territory. The H.A.C.E., Map 3:Central Europe, 7th and 8th centuries shows the Slovaks occupied the the territory south of the Carpathian Mountains, west almost to the Morava River, east and south to what is much of modern Slovakia. What the Avars did was bring new Slavs with them when the invaded from the east and then took them to the Balkans, along with established Slavs of the territory, ie. the Slovaks. When the Avars retreated back to their Khanate the Slavs stayed behind. Resulting in Carinthian and Pannonian Slavs being established. The Slavic Croats and Serbs were established when the Byzantine Emperor invited them to settle in the Empires hinderlands as a buffer to the Avars.
      The Avars were a nomadic people of Mongolian or Turco-Tatar origin. After their defeat in the 810s it only took a decade for the reference to Avars was no longer used. A number of them are said to have gone to Nitra (Slovakia) to help form a new state. Their hypothetical descendants, the Szekely (who apparently preserved the Avar Dragon Totem well into the 15th century were relocated to Transylvania in the 12th century.

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: helene cincebeaux
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 4:51 AM
      Subject: Re: [S-R] Extent of Ottoman Empire in Upper Hungary (Slovakia)


      Thanks Michael! Intrigued by the Cumani people. Dr.
      Tony Sutherland of Jednota told me that they were also
      called the Plavci people and the various places with
      Plavec in the village name were settled by them for
      example Plavec in Saris in eastern Slovakia and
      Plavecky Podhradie in southwestern Slovakia.

      Fascinating to think of such a major migration by such
      an exotic peoples. Also intrigued with the fierce
      Avars who were known for their beautiful motifs,
      (possibly related to the famed Scythians) and for
      their songs!

      helene

      --- Michael Mojher <mgmojher@...> wrote:

      > Helene,
      > In the 1200's a people called the Cumani joined
      > forces with the Hungarian Empire to make a stand
      > against Genghis Khan. Genghis Khan died before
      > reaching Hungary. The Hungarians allowed 40,000
      > Cumani to settle in through out the Empire. What is
      > interesting about the Cumani is that the emigrated
      > from along the Yellow River below Mongolia. They
      > were not a purely Asian race. They belonged to a
      > Turkic group. Nonetheless, they had a very
      > distinctive look, some with very 'almond' eyes.
      > I suspect that your photograph of the women in
      > Levice was of Cumani heritage. By the Ottoman
      > invasion they had been living in Hungary for 400
      > years.
      > Michael
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: helene cincebeaux
      > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 3:40 PM
      > Subject: Re: [S-R] Extent of Ottoman Empire in
      > Upper Hungary (Slovakia)
      >
      >
      > Have you seen Karel Plicka's photograph of women
      > in
      > Levice - they look totally oriental - maybe it was
      > the
      > earlier incursion of Tatars that casued this
      >
      > However I seem to recall that that area was
      > occupied
      > by the Turks much longer than a year - more like
      > decades.
      >
      > But this is only an impression - nice to get more
      > info
      > on something that is hard to research in English.
      > thanks to all
      >
      > helene
      >
      > --- Michael Mojher <mgmojher@...> wrote:
      >
      > > An article in Spectacular Slovakia said in 1663
      > the
      > > Ottoman's controlled Nita, Nove Zamky and
      > Levice,
      > > only for one year.
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: helene cincebeaux
      > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > > Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 11:24 AM
      > > Subject: RE: [S-R] Extent of Ottoman Empire in
      > > Upper Hungary (Slovakia)
      > >
      > >
      > > Interesting - i read somewhere that they came up
      > > the
      > > rivers into Moravia and Slovakia - would be
      > > curious to
      > > know which rivers and how far up - some were in
      > > eastern Slovakia I recall.
      > >
      > > helene
      > >
      > > --- konekta@... wrote:
      > >
      > > > No Turks there. They took only the southern
      > belt
      > > of
      > > > present Slovakia.
      > > > Vladimir
      > > >
      > > > _____
      > > >
      > > > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > > > [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
      > > > Behalf Of fernbrough
      > > > Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 5:20 PM
      > > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > > > Subject: [S-R] Extent of Ottoman Empire in
      > Upper
      > > > Hungary (Slovakia)
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Are there any maps that show the extent the
      > > Ottoman
      > > > Empire extended in
      > > > current day eastern Slovakia in the 1600's?
      > > >
      > > > I am specifically interested in seeing a
      > map(s)
      > > at
      > > > village level.
      > > >
      > > > My relatives came from Raslavice (Saros), Mala
      > > > Vieska (Saros)and
      > > > Komarany (Zemplin).
      > > >
      > > > Thanks in advance.
      > > >
      > > > Bob S.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
      > > > removed]
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
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      >
      >
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