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11750RE: [S-R] Other social groups

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  • Janet Kozlay
    Mar 4, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      Well, I really didn't think I was setting a trap for you. My apologies, and
      thanks, as always, for providing more information. :-) However, from my
      experience in the records this was not just an isolated exception. I have
      run into a number of instances of nobility who were not related to this
      family who were also butchers (though I have not seen nobles listed as
      millers or smiths). I always thought this was strange, but I couldn't ignore
      what was clearly there.
      You are certainly right about moving around. The family lived in a number of
      different villages over the years. You are also right that these were not
      small villages, but nagyközség.
      Janet


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@...]
      Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 2:06 PM
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [S-R] Other social groups


      Dear Janet,
      You set me a trap:-)
      What you are describing was probably the case with your family, which is not
      a representative case.
      Why the craftsmen were mainly subinquilini? Because they were not bonded to
      the land as the coloni were.
      They were usually living in other people's houses and this was the main
      characteristic of a subinquilinus. Millers, blacksmiths, taylors etc, they
      all were free to move and where they came to settle, they were tenants.
      Later on, they acquired houses etc.
      Bottom or not bottom;
      In feudal times the main asset was land and an inquilinus or subinquilinus
      died not have any land. So this was the criteria to sort them.
      You can not say:" My ancestor was a noble blacksmith, so I expect every
      blacksmith was noble." Nothing farther from the truth.
      If you were a nobleman, it did not say anything about your real social
      status. I found noblemen dying as a beggar. This was very often the case.
      Many noble properties were lost due to negligence and dolce vita, or
      through inheritance.
      Of course, when talking about the social structure, I had villages in mind,
      not towns.
      Towns were different.
      Vladimir

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Janet Kozlay
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 6:09 PM
      Subject: RE: [S-R] Other social groups


      Well, I know of at least one major exception. He was a non-propertied
      noble
      who was a leaseholder of the butchery, mill, sawmill, tavern, and wine and
      flax presses and one of the wealthiest men in the county. He married into
      a
      family of butchers who I believe were also nobles. Other friends and
      relatives tended to be priests, shopkeepers, teachers, estate managers,
      and
      lawyers, which gives the sense that this represented what we would think
      of
      as a middle class. (This was in the 1830s and 40s.) I have to agree that
      they were a small group percentagewise, but they are often dismissed
      completely in the literature, and of course they do appear in the church
      records. Your characterization of them as subinquilini suggests that they
      were on the bottom of the social barrel, which at least in this instance
      was
      far from the case. Perhaps the status of such an occupation varied among
      regions.
      Janet

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@...]
      Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 10:50 AM
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [S-R] Other social groups


      True, they were there too, but they can be seen as group in a wider sense.
      In a community, there were not many, and they usually were subinquilini
      anyway.
      I knew only one female blacksmith in my life. My opinion is, that what you
      saw were the spouses of.
      Generally speaking, the craftsmanship was not reserved for nobles. They
      were
      rather exceptions than a rule.
      Vladimir

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Janet Kozlay
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 2:05 PM
      Subject: [S-R] Other social groups




      Let's not forget that there are other social groups besides the farmers,
      such as the craftsmen and the nobles. In the Latin records you run
      across
      lanio (butcher), molitor (miller), and fabri (smith), who served their
      communities but were not farmers. Yesterday for the first time I ran
      across
      entries for women (godmothers) who were designated as lanionissa,
      molitorissa, and fabrissa. Do these signify that they were married to
      their
      respective butchers, millers, and smiths, or could there actually have
      been
      "butcheresses," "milleresses," and female smiths? I suspect the former,
      but
      I'd like another opinion. I would also like an opinion on whether in
      your
      experiences most of these specialties were filled by the minor nobility.
      I
      seem to have evidence that this was so, at least in the areas I have
      been
      searching.

      Janet







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