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Re: Light air sail

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  • Alec Pollak
    On our SJ24 we use a 1.5oz dynac 170 on the zero to 8 mph days (ie light summer days) this sail is very fast for these winds but must come down as the breeze
    Message 1 of 17 , Jan 1, 2009
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      On our SJ24 we use a 1.5oz dynac 170 on the zero to 8 mph days (ie
      light summer days) this sail is very fast for these winds but must
      come down as the breeze builds. We have a 4oz mylar 170 for zero to
      15mph winds or until we are overpowered, and a kevlar 140 for wind in
      the zero to 20mph range, we also have a couple of jibs, 110 and 85
      for higher winds. For additional light air speed, a boomkicker holds
      the weight of the boom (no toping lift) and allows the main to hold
      its shape better. We pay a lot of attention to haylard tension to
      control the luff of the main and head sail, as well as sheet position
      and outhaul tension. In the ultra light air, lighter sheets will
      help. As mentioned weight on the low side will help to shape sails.
      Since light air is also fluky, a mast top wind indicator helps in
      trimming sails. The SJ24 moves very well in the light air and its fun
      to be able to still be sailing when other sailboats have given up and
      turned on their motors.

      Alec
      SJ24 #34





      - In SJ-24@yahoogroups.com, "Gil Lund" <glund@...> wrote:
      >
      > A well built 170 will outperform a 163 going to windward any time
      in
      > wind under 10kt. That is why they are illegal for racing. Snappy
      does
      > pretty well with a 163 but with a 170 we will be unbeatable on
      point
      > and boat speed. That is if the driver does not loose his focus.
      > gil
      >
      >
      > --- In SJ-24@yahoogroups.com, "beach_bum_97367" <beach_bum_97367@>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > Our 163 is faster than our 170 because it is heavier material, it
      > holds
      > > its shape and doesn't collapse between puffs.
      > >
      > > --- In SJ-24@yahoogroups.com, William Sims <captwsims@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Mitch,
      > > >
      > > > Before I had a 155% roller furler sail I'd use my 170% in light
      > air.
      > > Probably depends somewhat on how heavy the material is--some
      large
      > > sails of heavy material could be slow to take shape in light airs.
      > > >
      > > > And if you are racing PHRF there will be a penalty for having a
      > 170%
      > > onboard.
      > > >
      > > > And SJ-24 one design racing does not allow it anymore....
      > > >
      > > > Bill Sims
      > > > Mandeville, LA
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • capndar
      ... 170% onboard.
      Message 2 of 17 , Jan 2, 2009
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        >>And if you are racing PHRF there will be a penalty for having a
        170% onboard.<<


        so do you all feel the 170 is worth the penalty?

        Mike R
        Charlotte
      • beach_bum_97367
        Our race committee s here on the Oregon coast no nothing about a penalty for using the 170 for PHRF racing, they raise eyebrows when I question them about it
        Message 3 of 17 , Jan 2, 2009
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          Our race committee's here on the Oregon coast no nothing about a
          penalty for using the 170 for PHRF racing, they raise eyebrows when I
          question them about it and then they incourage me to use it for light
          air racing. I should love the sail as it is much lighter and easier to
          tack then the heavier mylar 163 and it has a window but, the fact is
          everytime we use it we get our butts kicked and everytime we use the
          163 mylar sail, we kick butt. The last time we used the 170 I took it
          off the boat, wadded it up like an old newspaper and hummed it into the
          storage shed mourmering the words "piece of sh#t!" (I hate loosing
          especially to Catalina's). Anyway maybe my 170 isn't cut right or
          something, I would tend to listen to Gil since he is #1 in the country
          and it only makes since to me that the bigger the sail the better in
          light air but, all of our best light air races have been with the old
          patched-up 163 mylar sail and all of our worst were with the 170. We do
          about 30 races a year and our competors are a couple of Ultimate 20's,a
          J24, a couple if Santana 20's and 4 Catalina's 22',25', 27'& 29'.

          --- In SJ-24@yahoogroups.com, "capndar" <mike.robinson@...> wrote:
          >
          > >>And if you are racing PHRF there will be a penalty for having a
          > 170% onboard.<<
          >
          >
          > so do you all feel the 170 is worth the penalty?
          >
          > Mike R
          > Charlotte
          >
        • bryan hamilton
          I bought a 170% off of E-bay and it looked good, but didnt even perform close to my 163%. 163% works great in lite air. Sailfish ... From: beach_bum_97367
          Message 4 of 17 , Jan 2, 2009
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            I bought a 170% off of E-bay and it looked good, but didnt even perform close to my 163%. 163% works great in lite air. Sailfish

            --- On Fri, 1/2/09, beach_bum_97367 <beach_bum_97367@...> wrote:
            From: beach_bum_97367 <beach_bum_97367@...>
            Subject: [SJ-24] Re: Light air sail
            To: SJ-24@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Friday, January 2, 2009, 9:29 AM

            Our race committee's here on the Oregon coast no nothing about a
            penalty for using the 170 for PHRF racing, they raise eyebrows when I
            question them about it and then they incourage me to use it for light
            air racing. I should love the sail as it is much lighter and easier to
            tack then the heavier mylar 163 and it has a window but, the fact is
            everytime we use it we get our butts kicked and everytime we use the
            163 mylar sail, we kick butt. The last time we used the 170 I took it
            off the boat, wadded it up like an old newspaper and hummed it into the
            storage shed mourmering the words "piece of sh#t!" (I hate loosing
            especially to Catalina's). Anyway maybe my 170 isn't cut right or
            something, I would tend to listen to Gil since he is #1 in the country
            and it only makes since to me that the bigger the sail the better in
            light air but, all of our best light air races have been with the old
            patched-up 163 mylar sail and all of our worst were with the 170. We do
            about 30 races a year and our competors are a couple of Ultimate 20's,a
            J24, a couple if Santana 20's and 4 Catalina's 22',25', 27'& 29'.

            --- In SJ-24@yahoogroups. com, "capndar" <mike.robinson@ ...> wrote:
            >
            > >>And if you are racing PHRF there will be a penalty for having a
            > 170% onboard.<<
            >
            >
            > so do you all feel the 170 is worth the penalty?
            >
            > Mike R
            > Charlotte
            >


          • bryan hamilton
            I race Driftwood with a 164% North. Fantastic sail! I take a .9 reduction in Portsmouth but its well worth it.Boat takes off in lite air with it. Bryan ...
            Message 5 of 17 , Jan 2, 2009
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              I race "Driftwood" with a 164% North. Fantastic sail! I take a .9 reduction in Portsmouth but its well worth it.Boat takes off in lite air with it. Bryan

              --- On Fri, 1/2/09, capndar <mike.robinson@...> wrote:
              From: capndar <mike.robinson@...>
              Subject: [SJ-24] Re: Light air sail
              To: SJ-24@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Friday, January 2, 2009, 7:42 AM

              >>And if you are racing PHRF there will be a penalty for having a
              170% onboard.<<

              so do you all feel the 170 is worth the penalty?

              Mike R
              Charlotte


            • Gil Lund
              IF your PHRF rater do not give you a penalty for carrying a 170 he just does not know much about rating sailboats. By the way what is your rating? In Seattle
              Message 6 of 17 , Jan 2, 2009
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                IF your PHRF rater do not give you a penalty for carrying a 170 he
                just does not know much about rating sailboats. By the way what is
                your rating? In Seattle we rate 228 with a 163. If you do not have a
                penalty for using the 170 just buy a new one and marvel at the
                difference. You will never use your 163 again.
                One problem would be that you might get a new PHRF rater that
                actually knows what he is doing and change your rating. Particularly
                if you start beating those Catalinas regularly.

                Your storage shed 170 is just old and badly blown out.

                gil

                --- In SJ-24@yahoogroups.com, "beach_bum_97367" <beach_bum_97367@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Our race committee's here on the Oregon coast no nothing about a
                > penalty for using the 170 for PHRF racing, they raise eyebrows when
                I
                > question them about it and then they incourage me to use it for
                light
                > air racing. I should love the sail as it is much lighter and easier
                to
                > tack then the heavier mylar 163 and it has a window but, the fact
                is
                > everytime we use it we get our butts kicked and everytime we use
                the
                > 163 mylar sail, we kick butt. The last time we used the 170 I took
                it
                > off the boat, wadded it up like an old newspaper and hummed it into
                the
                > storage shed mourmering the words "piece of sh#t!" (I hate loosing
                > especially to Catalina's). Anyway maybe my 170 isn't cut right or
                > something, I would tend to listen to Gil since he is #1 in the
                country
                > and it only makes since to me that the bigger the sail the better
                in
                > light air but, all of our best light air races have been with the
                old
                > patched-up 163 mylar sail and all of our worst were with the 170.
                We do
                > about 30 races a year and our competors are a couple of Ultimate
                20's,a
                > J24, a couple if Santana 20's and 4 Catalina's 22',25', 27'& 29'.
                >
                > --- In SJ-24@yahoogroups.com, "capndar" <mike.robinson@> wrote:
                > >
                > > >>And if you are racing PHRF there will be a penalty for having a
                > > 170% onboard.<<
                > >
                > >
                > > so do you all feel the 170 is worth the penalty?
                > >
                > > Mike R
                > > Charlotte
                > >
                >
              • Gil Lund
                There are evidently a lot of blown out 170 s out there. gil ... perform close to my 163%. 163% works great in lite air. Sailfish ... I ... light ... to ... is
                Message 7 of 17 , Jan 2, 2009
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                  There are evidently a lot of blown out 170's out there.
                  gil

                  --- In SJ-24@yahoogroups.com, bryan hamilton <slfish15@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I bought a 170% off of E-bay and it looked good, but didnt even
                  perform close to my 163%. 163% works great in lite air. Sailfish
                  >
                  > --- On Fri, 1/2/09, beach_bum_97367 <beach_bum_97367@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > From: beach_bum_97367 <beach_bum_97367@...>
                  > Subject: [SJ-24] Re: Light air sail
                  > To: SJ-24@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Friday, January 2, 2009, 9:29 AM
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Our race committee's here on the Oregon coast no nothing about a
                  > penalty for using the 170 for PHRF racing, they raise eyebrows when
                  I
                  > question them about it and then they incourage me to use it for
                  light
                  > air racing. I should love the sail as it is much lighter and easier
                  to
                  > tack then the heavier mylar 163 and it has a window but, the fact
                  is
                  > everytime we use it we get our butts kicked and everytime we use
                  the
                  > 163 mylar sail, we kick butt. The last time we used the 170 I took
                  it
                  > off the boat, wadded it up like an old newspaper and hummed it into
                  the
                  > storage shed mourmering the words "piece of sh#t!" (I hate loosing
                  > especially to Catalina's). Anyway maybe my 170 isn't cut right or
                  > something, I would tend to listen to Gil since he is #1 in the
                  country
                  > and it only makes since to me that the bigger the sail the better
                  in
                  > light air but, all of our best light air races have been with the
                  old
                  > patched-up 163 mylar sail and all of our worst were with the 170.
                  We do
                  > about 30 races a year and our competors are a couple of Ultimate
                  20's,a
                  > J24, a couple if Santana 20's and 4 Catalina's 22',25', 27'& 29'.
                  >
                  > --- In SJ-24@yahoogroups. com, "capndar" <mike.robinson@ ...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > >>And if you are racing PHRF there will be a penalty for having a
                  > > 170% onboard.<<
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > so do you all feel the 170 is worth the penalty?
                  > >
                  > > Mike R
                  > > Charlotte
                  > >
                  >
                • beach_bum_97367
                  Thanks for clarifing that for me, I m still kind of new to all this and wouldn t know a blown out sail from a slightly used one. My rating is also 228 with the
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jan 2, 2009
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                    Thanks for clarifing that for me, I'm still kind of new to all this
                    and wouldn't know a blown out sail from a slightly used one. My
                    rating is also 228 with the 163 as the largest sail measured for
                    racing, as I understand it, the last owner of this boat had a 216
                    rating which may have been with the 170 but he told me that racing
                    with it was illegal so I don't know. I have very seldom lost a race
                    to any of the Catalina's, it's that darn j-boat and the u-20's that
                    give me trouble, well one of the Santana's too (the skipper is pretty
                    amazing).

                    --- In SJ-24@yahoogroups.com, "Gil Lund" <glund@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > IF your PHRF rater do not give you a penalty for carrying a 170 he
                    > just does not know much about rating sailboats. By the way what is
                    > your rating? In Seattle we rate 228 with a 163. If you do not have
                    a
                    > penalty for using the 170 just buy a new one and marvel at the
                    > difference. You will never use your 163 again.
                    > One problem would be that you might get a new PHRF rater that
                    > actually knows what he is doing and change your rating.
                    Particularly
                    > if you start beating those Catalinas regularly.
                    >
                    > Your storage shed 170 is just old and badly blown out.
                    >
                    > gil
                    >
                    > --- In SJ-24@yahoogroups.com, "beach_bum_97367" <beach_bum_97367@>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Our race committee's here on the Oregon coast no nothing about a
                    > > penalty for using the 170 for PHRF racing, they raise eyebrows
                    when
                    > I
                    > > question them about it and then they incourage me to use it for
                    > light
                    > > air racing. I should love the sail as it is much lighter and
                    easier
                    > to
                    > > tack then the heavier mylar 163 and it has a window but, the fact
                    > is
                    > > everytime we use it we get our butts kicked and everytime we use
                    > the
                    > > 163 mylar sail, we kick butt. The last time we used the 170 I
                    took
                    > it
                    > > off the boat, wadded it up like an old newspaper and hummed it
                    into
                    > the
                    > > storage shed mourmering the words "piece of sh#t!" (I hate
                    loosing
                    > > especially to Catalina's). Anyway maybe my 170 isn't cut right or
                    > > something, I would tend to listen to Gil since he is #1 in the
                    > country
                    > > and it only makes since to me that the bigger the sail the better
                    > in
                    > > light air but, all of our best light air races have been with the
                    > old
                    > > patched-up 163 mylar sail and all of our worst were with the 170.
                    > We do
                    > > about 30 races a year and our competors are a couple of Ultimate
                    > 20's,a
                    > > J24, a couple if Santana 20's and 4 Catalina's 22',25', 27'& 29'.
                    > >
                    > > --- In SJ-24@yahoogroups.com, "capndar" <mike.robinson@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > >>And if you are racing PHRF there will be a penalty for having
                    a
                    > > > 170% onboard.<<
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > so do you all feel the 170 is worth the penalty?
                    > > >
                    > > > Mike R
                    > > > Charlotte
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • bryan hamilton
                    I keep up with and sometimes beat an olson 25 with my164%. Ranger 26s are a little bit tougher but can be done. I beat a santanna 23 that has tall rig and
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jan 2, 2009
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                      I keep up with and sometimes beat an olson 25 with my164%. Ranger 26s are a little bit tougher but can be done. I beat a santanna 23 that has tall rig and centerboard all the time. SJ24s are great boats! Bryan H.


                      From: beach_bum_97367 <beach_bum_97367@...>
                      Subject: [SJ-24] Re: Light air sail
                      To: SJ-24@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Friday, January 2, 2009, 9:24 PM

                      Thanks for clarifing that for me, I'm still kind of new to all this
                      and wouldn't know a blown out sail from a slightly used one. My
                      rating is also 228 with the 163 as the largest sail measured for
                      racing, as I understand it, the last owner of this boat had a 216
                      rating which may have been with the 170 but he told me that racing
                      with it was illegal so I don't know. I have very seldom lost a race
                      to any of the Catalina's, it's that darn j-boat and the u-20's that
                      give me trouble, well one of the Santana's too (the skipper is pretty
                      amazing).

                      --- In SJ-24@yahoogroups. com, "Gil Lund" <glund@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > IF your PHRF rater do not give you a penalty for carrying a 170 he
                      > just does not know much about rating sailboats. By the way what is
                      > your rating? In Seattle we rate 228 with a 163. If you do not have
                      a
                      > penalty for using the 170 just buy a new one and marvel at the
                      > difference. You will never use your 163 again.
                      > One problem would be that you might get a new PHRF rater that
                      > actually knows what he is doing and change your rating.
                      Particularly
                      > if you start beating those Catalinas regularly.
                      >
                      > Your storage shed 170 is just old and badly blown out.
                      >
                      > gil
                      >
                      > --- In SJ-24@yahoogroups. com, "beach_bum_97367" <beach_bum_97367@ >
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Our race committee's here on the Oregon coast no nothing about a
                      > > penalty for using the 170 for PHRF racing, they raise eyebrows
                      when
                      > I
                      > > question them about it and then they incourage me to use it for
                      > light
                      > > air racing. I should love the sail as it is much lighter and
                      easier
                      > to
                      > > tack then the heavier mylar 163 and it has a window but, the fact
                      > is
                      > > everytime we use it we get our butts kicked and everytime we use
                      > the
                      > > 163 mylar sail, we kick butt. The last time we used the 170 I
                      took
                      > it
                      > > off the boat, wadded it up like an old newspaper and hummed it
                      into
                      > the
                      > > storage shed mourmering the words "piece of sh#t!" (I hate
                      loosing
                      > > especially to Catalina's). Anyway maybe my 170 isn't cut right or
                      > > something, I would tend to listen to Gil since he is #1 in the
                      > country
                      > > and it only makes since to me that the bigger the sail the better
                      > in
                      > > light air but, all of our best light air races have been with the
                      > old
                      > > patched-up 163 mylar sail and all of our worst were with the 170.
                      > We do
                      > > about 30 races a year and our competors are a couple of Ultimate
                      > 20's,a
                      > > J24, a couple if Santana 20's and 4 Catalina's 22',25', 27'& 29'.
                      > >
                      > > --- In SJ-24@yahoogroups. com, "capndar" <mike.robinson@ > wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > >>And if you are racing PHRF there will be a penalty for having
                      a
                      > > > 170% onboard.<<
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > so do you all feel the 170 is worth the penalty?
                      > > >
                      > > > Mike R
                      > > > Charlotte
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >


                    • Bill Sims
                      It has been a number of years since I checked, but down here a SJ-24 with 170 onboard rated 210, and without it rated 216. Bill Sims Mandeville, LA
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jan 3, 2009
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                        It has been a number of years since I checked, but down here a SJ-24 with 170 onboard rated 210, and without it rated 216. 
                         
                        Bill Sims
                        Mandeville, LA
                         
                         
                      • Mark Kanzler
                        ... A small block chevy can outperform a big block chevy in a drag race if it is tuned a lot better, but in the long run there s no substitute for cubic
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jan 3, 2009
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                          --- In SJ-24@yahoogroups.com, bryan hamilton <slfish15@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I bought a 170% off of E-bay and it looked good, but didnt even
                          > perform close to my 163%. 163% works great in lite air. Sailfish

                          A small block chevy can outperform a big block chevy in a drag
                          race if it is tuned a lot better, but in the long run there's
                          no substitute for cubic inches.

                          If the 163 and 170 are equal in construction, in light air
                          the 170 will win - especially on a boat driven by the
                          headsail like an old 1970's IOR based design.
                        • Gil Lund
                          One design class racing with a 170 is not legal. We only do one design races because it is a LOT more fun and luckily we have a fleet with pretty good
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jan 7, 2009
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                            One design class racing with a 170 is not legal. We only do one
                            design races because it is a LOT more fun and luckily we have a fleet
                            with pretty good competition.

                            PHRF racing with a 170 is legal, provided you take whatever penalty
                            the local PHRF raters in their infinit wisdom decide you deserve. You
                            might start off with a 228 but if you win a lot of races other people
                            (the Catalinas) will complain and before you know it you are down to
                            216 or even less.
                            gil


                            --- In SJ-24@yahoogroups.com, "beach_bum_97367" <beach_bum_97367@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > Thanks for clarifing that for me, I'm still kind of new to all this
                            > and wouldn't know a blown out sail from a slightly used one. My
                            > rating is also 228 with the 163 as the largest sail measured for
                            > racing, as I understand it, the last owner of this boat had a 216
                            > rating which may have been with the 170 but he told me that racing
                            > with it was illegal so I don't know. I have very seldom lost a race
                            > to any of the Catalina's, it's that darn j-boat and the u-20's that
                            > give me trouble, well one of the Santana's too (the skipper is
                            pretty
                            > amazing).
                            >
                            > --- In SJ-24@yahoogroups.com, "Gil Lund" <glund@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > IF your PHRF rater do not give you a penalty for carrying a 170
                            he
                            > > just does not know much about rating sailboats. By the way what
                            is
                            > > your rating? In Seattle we rate 228 with a 163. If you do not
                            have
                            > a
                            > > penalty for using the 170 just buy a new one and marvel at the
                            > > difference. You will never use your 163 again.
                            > > One problem would be that you might get a new PHRF rater that
                            > > actually knows what he is doing and change your rating.
                            > Particularly
                            > > if you start beating those Catalinas regularly.
                            > >
                            > > Your storage shed 170 is just old and badly blown out.
                            > >
                            > > gil
                            > >
                            > > --- In SJ-24@yahoogroups.com, "beach_bum_97367"
                            <beach_bum_97367@>
                            > > wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Our race committee's here on the Oregon coast no nothing about
                            a
                            > > > penalty for using the 170 for PHRF racing, they raise eyebrows
                            > when
                            > > I
                            > > > question them about it and then they incourage me to use it for
                            > > light
                            > > > air racing. I should love the sail as it is much lighter and
                            > easier
                            > > to
                            > > > tack then the heavier mylar 163 and it has a window but, the
                            fact
                            > > is
                            > > > everytime we use it we get our butts kicked and everytime we
                            use
                            > > the
                            > > > 163 mylar sail, we kick butt. The last time we used the 170 I
                            > took
                            > > it
                            > > > off the boat, wadded it up like an old newspaper and hummed it
                            > into
                            > > the
                            > > > storage shed mourmering the words "piece of sh#t!" (I hate
                            > loosing
                            > > > especially to Catalina's). Anyway maybe my 170 isn't cut right
                            or
                            > > > something, I would tend to listen to Gil since he is #1 in the
                            > > country
                            > > > and it only makes since to me that the bigger the sail the
                            better
                            > > in
                            > > > light air but, all of our best light air races have been with
                            the
                            > > old
                            > > > patched-up 163 mylar sail and all of our worst were with the
                            170.
                            > > We do
                            > > > about 30 races a year and our competors are a couple of
                            Ultimate
                            > > 20's,a
                            > > > J24, a couple if Santana 20's and 4 Catalina's 22',25', 27'&
                            29'.
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In SJ-24@yahoogroups.com, "capndar" <mike.robinson@> wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > >>And if you are racing PHRF there will be a penalty for
                            having
                            > a
                            > > > > 170% onboard.<<
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > so do you all feel the 170 is worth the penalty?
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Mike R
                            > > > > Charlotte
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • beach_bum_97367
                            Why is it illegal in a one design class? what if all the boats have a 170 on board, wouldn t that be a fair race? who made this law anyway? ... fleet ... You
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jan 8, 2009
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                              Why is it illegal in a one design class? what if all the boats have a
                              170 on board, wouldn't that be a fair race? who made this law anyway?

                              --- In SJ-24@yahoogroups.com, "Gil Lund" <glund@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > One design class racing with a 170 is not legal. We only do one
                              > design races because it is a LOT more fun and luckily we have a
                              fleet
                              > with pretty good competition.
                              >
                              > PHRF racing with a 170 is legal, provided you take whatever penalty
                              > the local PHRF raters in their infinit wisdom decide you deserve.
                              You
                              > might start off with a 228 but if you win a lot of races other
                              people
                              > (the Catalinas) will complain and before you know it you are down
                              to
                              > 216 or even less.
                              > gil
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In SJ-24@yahoogroups.com, "beach_bum_97367" <beach_bum_97367@>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Thanks for clarifing that for me, I'm still kind of new to all
                              this
                              > > and wouldn't know a blown out sail from a slightly used one. My
                              > > rating is also 228 with the 163 as the largest sail measured for
                              > > racing, as I understand it, the last owner of this boat had a 216
                              > > rating which may have been with the 170 but he told me that
                              racing
                              > > with it was illegal so I don't know. I have very seldom lost a
                              race
                              > > to any of the Catalina's, it's that darn j-boat and the u-20's
                              that
                              > > give me trouble, well one of the Santana's too (the skipper is
                              > pretty
                              > > amazing).
                              > >
                              > > --- In SJ-24@yahoogroups.com, "Gil Lund" <glund@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > IF your PHRF rater do not give you a penalty for carrying a 170
                              > he
                              > > > just does not know much about rating sailboats. By the way what
                              > is
                              > > > your rating? In Seattle we rate 228 with a 163. If you do not
                              > have
                              > > a
                              > > > penalty for using the 170 just buy a new one and marvel at the
                              > > > difference. You will never use your 163 again.
                              > > > One problem would be that you might get a new PHRF rater that
                              > > > actually knows what he is doing and change your rating.
                              > > Particularly
                              > > > if you start beating those Catalinas regularly.
                              > > >
                              > > > Your storage shed 170 is just old and badly blown out.
                              > > >
                              > > > gil
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In SJ-24@yahoogroups.com, "beach_bum_97367"
                              > <beach_bum_97367@>
                              > > > wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Our race committee's here on the Oregon coast no nothing
                              about
                              > a
                              > > > > penalty for using the 170 for PHRF racing, they raise
                              eyebrows
                              > > when
                              > > > I
                              > > > > question them about it and then they incourage me to use it
                              for
                              > > > light
                              > > > > air racing. I should love the sail as it is much lighter and
                              > > easier
                              > > > to
                              > > > > tack then the heavier mylar 163 and it has a window but, the
                              > fact
                              > > > is
                              > > > > everytime we use it we get our butts kicked and everytime we
                              > use
                              > > > the
                              > > > > 163 mylar sail, we kick butt. The last time we used the 170 I
                              > > took
                              > > > it
                              > > > > off the boat, wadded it up like an old newspaper and hummed
                              it
                              > > into
                              > > > the
                              > > > > storage shed mourmering the words "piece of sh#t!" (I hate
                              > > loosing
                              > > > > especially to Catalina's). Anyway maybe my 170 isn't cut
                              right
                              > or
                              > > > > something, I would tend to listen to Gil since he is #1 in
                              the
                              > > > country
                              > > > > and it only makes since to me that the bigger the sail the
                              > better
                              > > > in
                              > > > > light air but, all of our best light air races have been with
                              > the
                              > > > old
                              > > > > patched-up 163 mylar sail and all of our worst were with the
                              > 170.
                              > > > We do
                              > > > > about 30 races a year and our competors are a couple of
                              > Ultimate
                              > > > 20's,a
                              > > > > J24, a couple if Santana 20's and 4 Catalina's 22',25', 27'&
                              > 29'.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > --- In SJ-24@yahoogroups.com, "capndar" <mike.robinson@>
                              wrote:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > >>And if you are racing PHRF there will be a penalty for
                              > having
                              > > a
                              > > > > > 170% onboard.<<
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > so do you all feel the 170 is worth the penalty?
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Mike R
                              > > > > > Charlotte
                              > > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • Gil Lund
                              The decision to use a 163 in place of the original 170 was made by the national j24 fleet association back in at the end of 1970. It was ramroded thru by the
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jan 8, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                The decision to use a 163 in place of the original 170 was made by
                                the national j24 fleet association back in at the end of 1970. It was
                                ramroded thru by the fleets in the midwest since they had small
                                fleets and did a lot of PHRF racing. Most of their boats used a 163
                                for PHRF because of the rating brake. When they came to the Nationals
                                in Seattle were we only sailed one design and all used the 170 they
                                had a significant handicap unless they invested in a new larger genoa
                                just for that race. To make it easier for the people with their 163
                                it was decided that we all would use a 163 for fleet racing but that
                                the existing 170 sails would be grandfathered in until they blew out.
                                After that we all went to the 163 and lived unhappily ever after.
                                Like you said there are a lot of old blown out grandfathered 170
                                floating around.
                                Scrapping all our new expensive carbon 163 headsails and going back
                                to the 170 is not a financially practical option.
                                gil


                                --- In SJ-24@yahoogroups.com, "beach_bum_97367" <beach_bum_97367@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > Why is it illegal in a one design class? what if all the boats have
                                a
                                > 170 on board, wouldn't that be a fair race? who made this law
                                anyway?
                                >
                                > --- In SJ-24@yahoogroups.com, "Gil Lund" <glund@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > One design class racing with a 170 is not legal. We only do one
                                > > design races because it is a LOT more fun and luckily we have a
                                > fleet
                                > > with pretty good competition.
                                > >
                                > > PHRF racing with a 170 is legal, provided you take whatever
                                penalty
                                > > the local PHRF raters in their infinit wisdom decide you deserve.
                                > You
                                > > might start off with a 228 but if you win a lot of races other
                                > people
                                > > (the Catalinas) will complain and before you know it you are down
                                > to
                                > > 216 or even less.
                                > > gil
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --- In SJ-24@yahoogroups.com, "beach_bum_97367"
                                <beach_bum_97367@>
                                > > wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Thanks for clarifing that for me, I'm still kind of new to all
                                > this
                                > > > and wouldn't know a blown out sail from a slightly used one. My
                                > > > rating is also 228 with the 163 as the largest sail measured
                                for
                                > > > racing, as I understand it, the last owner of this boat had a
                                216
                                > > > rating which may have been with the 170 but he told me that
                                > racing
                                > > > with it was illegal so I don't know. I have very seldom lost a
                                > race
                                > > > to any of the Catalina's, it's that darn j-boat and the u-20's
                                > that
                                > > > give me trouble, well one of the Santana's too (the skipper is
                                > > pretty
                                > > > amazing).
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In SJ-24@yahoogroups.com, "Gil Lund" <glund@> wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > IF your PHRF rater do not give you a penalty for carrying a
                                170
                                > > he
                                > > > > just does not know much about rating sailboats. By the way
                                what
                                > > is
                                > > > > your rating? In Seattle we rate 228 with a 163. If you do not
                                > > have
                                > > > a
                                > > > > penalty for using the 170 just buy a new one and marvel at
                                the
                                > > > > difference. You will never use your 163 again.
                                > > > > One problem would be that you might get a new PHRF rater that
                                > > > > actually knows what he is doing and change your rating.
                                > > > Particularly
                                > > > > if you start beating those Catalinas regularly.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Your storage shed 170 is just old and badly blown out.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > gil
                                > > > >
                                > > > > --- In SJ-24@yahoogroups.com, "beach_bum_97367"
                                > > <beach_bum_97367@>
                                > > > > wrote:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Our race committee's here on the Oregon coast no nothing
                                > about
                                > > a
                                > > > > > penalty for using the 170 for PHRF racing, they raise
                                > eyebrows
                                > > > when
                                > > > > I
                                > > > > > question them about it and then they incourage me to use it
                                > for
                                > > > > light
                                > > > > > air racing. I should love the sail as it is much lighter
                                and
                                > > > easier
                                > > > > to
                                > > > > > tack then the heavier mylar 163 and it has a window but,
                                the
                                > > fact
                                > > > > is
                                > > > > > everytime we use it we get our butts kicked and everytime
                                we
                                > > use
                                > > > > the
                                > > > > > 163 mylar sail, we kick butt. The last time we used the 170
                                I
                                > > > took
                                > > > > it
                                > > > > > off the boat, wadded it up like an old newspaper and hummed
                                > it
                                > > > into
                                > > > > the
                                > > > > > storage shed mourmering the words "piece of sh#t!" (I hate
                                > > > loosing
                                > > > > > especially to Catalina's). Anyway maybe my 170 isn't cut
                                > right
                                > > or
                                > > > > > something, I would tend to listen to Gil since he is #1 in
                                > the
                                > > > > country
                                > > > > > and it only makes since to me that the bigger the sail the
                                > > better
                                > > > > in
                                > > > > > light air but, all of our best light air races have been
                                with
                                > > the
                                > > > > old
                                > > > > > patched-up 163 mylar sail and all of our worst were with
                                the
                                > > 170.
                                > > > > We do
                                > > > > > about 30 races a year and our competors are a couple of
                                > > Ultimate
                                > > > > 20's,a
                                > > > > > J24, a couple if Santana 20's and 4 Catalina's 22',25',
                                27'&
                                > > 29'.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > --- In SJ-24@yahoogroups.com, "capndar" <mike.robinson@>
                                > wrote:
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > >>And if you are racing PHRF there will be a penalty for
                                > > having
                                > > > a
                                > > > > > > 170% onboard.<<
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > so do you all feel the 170 is worth the penalty?
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Mike R
                                > > > > > > Charlotte
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
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