Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: [SJ-24] Re:tweakers

Expand Messages
  • Winkelstein, Peter
    Gil-- This sounds reasonable to me. I guess the only way to determine what s best here is to race the rigs against each other! Where do you run your spinnaker
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 1, 2001
    • 0 Attachment
      Gil--

      This sounds reasonable to me. I guess the only way to determine what's best
      here is to race the rigs against each other!

      Where do you run your spinnaker halyard? My boat came with two--one to port
      and one to starboard, both exiting through blocks at the base of the mast,
      then running through cheek blocks along the cabin top to cam cleats near the
      cockpit. This requires someone in the cockpit to do the hoist. I have
      mounted a cam cleat on the mast above the exit block for one of the
      halyards, which allows the foredeck crew to do the hoist, freeing the
      cockpit crew to help the spinnaker out of the cabin. This seems to speed
      things up a bit.

      I'm not sure why there are two spinnaker halyards--perhaps the second is for
      a blooper (my boat came with one, which I have never flown in competition).
      I've left the second halyard rigged as a spare, although each year I wonder
      if the weight is worth it.

      Peter


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Gil Lund [mailto:gil@...]
      Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 1:29 PM
      To: SJ-24@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [SJ-24] Re:tweakers


      Peter
      That is the same set up we tried. The key word is "almost all
      conditions". We found that to give a decent angle to the sheet going
      to the clew thru the pole tip in heavy air the block had to be quite
      far forward. That made it difficult to control the pole and the luff
      tension in normal conditions. When we race, depending on the tactical
      situation the pole must be capable of moving quickly thru an angle of
      0-60 deg without loosing control of the luff tension. (0 beeing right
      on the forestay) This is not practical using a tweeker block located
      in a fixed position. Remember that with the competition we have out
      here, loosing the spinnaker luff for just 10sec could easily drop you
      a couple of places.

      After many years we also convinced ourself to elliminate the tweekers
      altogether and for the last few years we just have a set of snatch
      blocks on the toe rail at the max with of the boat. We only use them
      in VERY heavy air. At the last Nationals we did not use them at all.
      At times it was blowing 20 kt+. With this set up we have quick and
      full control of the pole and luff tension at ALL times and we save
      weight by trading one short foreguy line for two tweeker lines.

      Another important thing is that elliminating the weight of the tweeker
      blocks from the sheets significantly improves spinnaker control in
      light air.

      We run both the topping lift and the foreguy to cleats behind the mast
      and they are controled by the foredeck person. Our foreguy is therfore
      very short and much lighter than any tweeker lines.
      Gil


      --- In SJ-24@y..., "Winkelstein, Peter" <pwink@u...> wrote:
      > Gil--
      >
      > Perhaps I don't understand your tweaker set-up. Mine are adjustable
      with a
      > line from the cockpit. The line runs through a block attached far
      enough
      > forward so that it keeps the pole down in almost all conditions,
      including
      > competitive venues. We don't have any other SJ24s racing here
      (Buffalo, NY),
      > so I can't gauge my performance against them, but I'm beating just
      about
      > everyone else PHRF with this rig. Getting rid of the downhaul
      simplifies the
      > pole handling a bit and gets some weight off the bow (which, of
      course, in
      > the SJ24 is really critical).
      >
      > Peter
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Gil Lund [mailto:gil@l...]
      > Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 2:05 PM
      > To: SJ-24@y...
      > Subject: [SJ-24] Re: remove toe-rails? (how to)
      >
      >
      > Peter / John
      > We tried the no pole/tweeker only on Snappy but found that it does
      not
      > work well if you want to fly the spinnaker competivivly. Some j24,s
      > here in Seattle tried it but they are mostly all back to the pole.
      > Main problem is that to be able to reach up beyond about 45 deg the
      > winward tweeker must be far forward. Also as soon as you start
      > reaching up, (say to prevent beeing over-run to windward) someone
      has
      > to move the tweeeker forward. Doing that quickly while the sheet is
      > loaded is not practical.
      >
      > If you, like me are the type who hates it when someone "rolls you"
      to
      > winward on a downwind leg you will need the pole for quick and good
      > luff control. I also love to roll people if I can, particularly
      > unsavoury guys like Mark Rider and having only a fixed tweeker far
      > forward makes that next to impossible.
      >
      > In summary if you want to sail downwind tactically and competitivly
      > using a big mast head symetrical spinnaker like you have on the SJ24
      > it is my experience that the pole is a must.
      >
      > I have also found that in heavy air with broaching conditions the
      > spinnaker sheets needs to be tweeked down at about a couple of feet
      > behind the mast and as far out as you can get. That is, on the toe
      > rail. If you have the blocks in the back like John suggest you are
      > realy setting youself up for a nasty uncontrollable side to side
      roll
      > and subsequent broach. Note that the toe rail is structuraly one of
      > the strongest tie down points on the boat. Much stronger in fact
      than
      > the genoa tracks. Yes, I do have cracks in the gel coat both places
      > and the boat does leak some but if you are serious about racing that
      > is the price you have to pay.
      > Gil
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In SJ-24@y..., "Winkelstein, Peter" <pwink@u...> wrote:
      > > Yes--that's the idea. They are barber-haulers for the spinnaker
      > sheets; aka
      > > twings. I use a block tied to a short (about 6 foot) piece of
      line.
      > I lead
      > > the line through another block on the toe rail about amidships and
      > then back
      > > to a small cam cleat attached to a stanchion. You lead your
      > spinnaker sheets
      > > through the block tied to the line. When flying the spinnaker, you
      > pull the
      > > tweaker on the pole side (on the guy) all the way in and let the
      > tweaker on
      > > the sheet side all the way out (you can do some fine tuning, but
      > this is the
      > > way to start). This gives the guy a better angle for adjusting the
      > pole.
      > > I've found that this allows you to do away with the pole downhaul
      > (another
      > > J24 idea).
      > >
      > > Take a look at the Harken catalog or web site--they have some nice
      > diagrams.
      > >
      > > Peter
      > >
      > >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: John Sexton [mailto:wordguy7@y...]
      > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 3:54 PM
      > > To: SJ-24@y...
      > > Subject: RE: [SJ-24] remove toe-rails? (how to)
      > >
      > >
      > > is a tweeker something like a barbur haul?
      > >
      > > John
      > >
      > > --- "Winkelstein, Peter" <pwink@u...> wrote:
      > > > I run my spinnaker blocks and tweaker blocks from
      > > > the toe rail--works fine
      > > > for me!
      > > >
      > > > BTW, for those racing spinnaker, I don't bother with
      > > > a pole down-haul
      > > > anymore, just the tweakers. Anybody else with this
      > > > rig?
      > > >
      > > > Peter Winkelstein
      > > > Shade of Avalon
      > > > #160
      > > >
      > > > -----Original Message-----
      > > > From: Morrison, John
      > > > [mailto:johnm@v...]
      > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 12:11 PM
      > > > To: 'SJ-24@y...'
      > > > Subject: RE: [SJ-24] remove toe-rails? (how to)
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > The use of 3M 5200 would allow you to eliminate the
      > > > bolts, and reduce the
      > > > chance of leaks by 50. Just epoxy the holes after
      > > > the toe-rail sets in the
      > > > 5200. I say this assuming you're not running
      > > > spinnaker blocks from the
      > > > toe-rail...which you shouldn't do anyhow.
      > > > Either way you go is fine.
      > > >
      > > > John
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > -----Original Message-----
      > > > From: Andy Shanks [mailto:shanks11@s...]
      > > > Sent: September 26, 2001 8:49 AM
      > > > To: SJ-24@y...
      > > > Subject: Re: [SJ-24] remove toe-rails? (how to)
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > 3M 5200 is a very tenacious adhesive. If applied
      > > > correctly it can pull gel
      > > > coat off the boat. On the other hand, this boat is
      > > > 30 years old. What is
      > > > the likelihood that you or anyone else will be doing
      > > > this again?
      > > >
      > > > At 11:38 AM 09/26/2001 -0400, you wrote:
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > John- The 3m 5200 is listed in the West catalog as
      > > > an adhesive/sealant.
      > > > Would this be a problem in removing the rails in the
      > > > future?? I don't plan
      > > >
      > > > on doing this but once but you never know. The 3m
      > > > prices in general might
      > > > make it a bit pricy for the amount I will need. The
      > > > Woolsey Dolfinite is
      > > > priced more friendly and the description sounds
      > > > suitable.
      > > > George Cunningham #18 "Spaghetti"
      > > > Franklin TN
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > > > SJ-24-unsubscribe@y...
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      > > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
      > > >
      > > > ADVERTISEMENT
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/di/dietsmart/blueswim_top.gif>
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
      <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/di/dietsmart/blueswim_photo.jpg>
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
      <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/di/dietsmart/blueswim_starthere.g
      > if>
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Height:
      > > > 345678ft 01234567891011in
      > > > Weight:
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/di/dietsmart/clear.gif>
      > > >
      > > <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/di/dietsmart/clear.gif>
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
      <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/di/dietsmart/blueswim_dslogo.gif>
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/di/dietsmart/clear.gif>
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
      <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=210544.1579876.3135161.1261774/D=egr
      > oupmai
      > > > l/S=1705065792:HM/A=792402/rand=275087565>
      > > >
      > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > > > SJ-24-unsubscribe@y...
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
      > > > Terms of Service
      > > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > > > SJ-24-unsubscribe@y...
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > > __________________________________________________
      > > Do You Yahoo!?
      > > Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo!
      > Messenger.
      > > http://im.yahoo.com
      > >
      > >
      > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > > SJ-24-unsubscribe@y...
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > SJ-24-unsubscribe@y...
      >
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      SJ-24-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
    • Winkelstein, Peter
      Here on Lake Ontario SJ24s are rated 216 (234 NFS). After almost 10 years of racing, this seems about right to me, although I didn t think so when I first
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 1, 2001
      • 0 Attachment
        Here on Lake Ontario SJ24s are rated 216 (234 NFS). After almost 10 years of racing, this seems about right to me, although I didn't think so when I first started!
        -----Original Message-----
        From: William Beatty [mailto:BBeatty3@...]
        Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 3:20 PM
        To: SJ24
        Subject: Re: [SJ-24] Re:tweakers

        What is your base PHRF number? 
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Winkelstein, Peter
        Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 9:55 AM
        To: 'SJ-24@yahoogroups.com'
        Subject: RE: [SJ-24] Re:tweakers
         
        Gil--

        Perhaps I don't understand your tweaker set-up. Mine are adjustable with a
        line from the cockpit. The line runs through a block attached far enough
        forward so that it keeps the pole down in almost all conditions, including
        competitive venues. We don't have any other SJ24s racing here (Buffalo, NY),
        so I can't gauge my performance against them, but I'm beating just about
        everyone else PHRF with this rig. Getting rid of the downhaul simplifies the
        pole handling a bit and gets some weight off the bow (which, of course, in
        the SJ24 is really critical).

        Peter




        -----Original Message-----
        From: Gil Lund [mailto:gil@...]
        Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 2:05 PM
        To: SJ-24@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [SJ-24] Re: remove toe-rails? (how to)


        Peter / John
        We tried the no pole/tweeker only on Snappy but found that it does not
        work well if you want to fly the spinnaker competivivly. Some j24,s
        here in Seattle tried it but they are mostly all back to the pole.
        Main problem is that to be able to reach up beyond about 45 deg the
        winward tweeker must be far forward. Also as soon as you start
        reaching up, (say to prevent beeing over-run to windward) someone has
        to move the tweeeker forward. Doing that quickly while the sheet is
        loaded is not practical.

        If you, like me are the type who hates it when someone "rolls you" to
        winward on a downwind leg you will need the pole for quick and good
        luff control. I also love to roll people if I can, particularly
        unsavoury guys like Mark Rider and having only a fixed tweeker far
        forward makes that next to impossible.

        In summary if you want to sail downwind tactically and competitivly
        using a big mast head symetrical spinnaker like you have on the SJ24
        it is my experience that the pole is a must.

        I have also found that in heavy air with broaching conditions the
        spinnaker sheets needs to be tweeked down at about a couple of feet
        behind the mast and as far out as you can get. That is, on the toe
        rail. If you have the blocks in the back like John suggest you are
        realy setting youself up for a nasty uncontrollable side to side roll
        and subsequent broach. Note that the toe rail is structuraly one of
        the strongest tie down points on the boat. Much stronger in fact than
        the genoa tracks. Yes, I do have cracks in the gel coat both places
        and the boat does leak some but if you are serious about racing that
        is the price you have to pay.
        Gil



        --- In SJ-24@y..., "Winkelstein, Peter" <pwink@u...> wrote:
        > Yes--that's the idea. They are barber-haulers for the spinnaker
        sheets; aka
        > twings. I use a block tied to a short (about 6 foot) piece of line.
        I lead
        > the line through another block on the toe rail about amidships and
        then back
        > to a small cam cleat attached to a stanchion. You lead your
        spinnaker sheets
        > through the block tied to the line. When flying the spinnaker, you
        pull the
        > tweaker on the pole side (on the guy) all the way in and let the
        tweaker on
        > the sheet side all the way out (you can do some fine tuning, but
        this is the
        > way to start). This gives the guy a better angle for adjusting the
        pole.
        > I've found that this allows you to do away with the pole downhaul
        (another
        > J24 idea).
        >
        > Take a look at the Harken catalog or web site--they have some nice
        diagrams.
        >
        > Peter
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: John Sexton [mailto:wordguy7@y...]
        > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 3:54 PM
        > To: SJ-24@y...
        > Subject: RE: [SJ-24] remove toe-rails? (how to)
        >
        >
        > is a tweeker something like a barbur haul?
        >
        > John
        >
        > --- "Winkelstein, Peter" <pwink@u...> wrote:
        > > I run my spinnaker blocks and tweaker blocks from
        > > the toe rail--works fine
        > > for me!
        > >
        > > BTW, for those racing spinnaker, I don't bother with
        > > a pole down-haul
        > > anymore, just the tweakers. Anybody else with this
        > > rig?
        > >
        > > Peter Winkelstein
        > > Shade of Avalon
        > > #160
        > >
        > > -----Original Message-----
        > > From: Morrison, John
        > > [mailto:johnm@v...]
        > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 12:11 PM
        > > To: 'SJ-24@y...'
        > > Subject: RE: [SJ-24] remove toe-rails? (how to)
        > >
        > >
        > > The use of 3M 5200 would allow you to eliminate the
        > > bolts, and reduce the
        > > chance of leaks by 50.  Just epoxy the holes after
        > > the toe-rail sets in the
        > > 5200.   I say this assuming you're not running
        > > spinnaker blocks from the
        > > toe-rail...which you shouldn't do anyhow.
        > > Either way you go is fine.
        > >
        > > John
        > >
        > >
        > > -----Original Message-----
        > > From: Andy Shanks [mailto:shanks11@s...]
        > > Sent: September 26, 2001 8:49 AM
        > > To: SJ-24@y...
        > > Subject: Re: [SJ-24] remove toe-rails? (how to)
        > >
        > >
        > > 3M 5200 is a very tenacious adhesive.  If applied
        > > correctly it can pull gel
        > > coat off the boat.  On the other hand, this boat is
        > > 30 years old.  What is
        > > the likelihood that you or anyone else will be doing
        > > this again?
        > >
        > > At 11:38 AM 09/26/2001 -0400, you wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > John- The 3m 5200 is listed in the West catalog as
        > > an adhesive/sealant.
        > > Would this be a problem in removing the rails in the
        > > future??   I don't plan
        > >
        > > on doing this but once but you never know.   The 3m
        > > prices in general might
        > > make it a bit pricy for the amount I will need. The
        > > Woolsey Dolfinite is
        > > priced more friendly and the description sounds
        > > suitable.
        > > George Cunningham #18 "Spaghetti"
        > > Franklin TN
        > >
        > >
        > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > > SJ-24-unsubscribe@y...
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>
        > >
        > >
        > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        > >
        > > ADVERTISEMENT
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/di/dietsmart/blueswim_top.gif>
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/di/dietsmart/blueswim_photo.jpg>
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/di/dietsmart/blueswim_starthere.g
        if>
        > >
        > >
        > > Height:
        > >  345678ft 01234567891011in
        > > Weight:
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/di/dietsmart/clear.gif>
        > >
        > <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/di/dietsmart/clear.gif>
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/di/dietsmart/blueswim_dslogo.gif>
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/di/dietsmart/clear.gif>
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=210544.1579876.3135161.1261774/D=egr
        oupmai
        > > l/S=1705065792:HM/A=792402/rand=275087565>
        > >
        > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > > SJ-24-unsubscribe@y...
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
        > > Terms of Service
        > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > > SJ-24-unsubscribe@y...
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > __________________________________________________
        > Do You Yahoo!?
        > Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo!
        Messenger.
        > http://im.yahoo.com
        >
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > SJ-24-unsubscribe@y...
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



        To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        SJ-24-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


        ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
        FREE COLLEGE MONEY
        CLICK HERE to search
        600,000 scholarships!
        http://us.click.yahoo.com/ujOgTC/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/A1TolB/TM
        ---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

        To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        SJ-24-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




        To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        SJ-24-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
      • Gil Lund
        We have done fairly well the last few years so I guess we are finally getting the rigging dialed in as well as any SJ24 around here. I have raced the boat
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 1, 2001
        • 0 Attachment
          We have done fairly well the last few years so I guess we are finally
          getting the rigging dialed in as well as any SJ24 around here. I have
          raced the boat since 1976 and the number of holes in the cabintop
          testify to a lot of bad ideas discarded.

          Currently our focus is on how to simplify the rigging to minimize the
          number of crew errors. Getting rid of the spinnaker tweekers was an
          effort in this direction. Also as you get better at coordinating the
          driving and sheeting the tweekers or choke blocks are less needed.

          We have 3 halyards on our boat. Two for the Genoa and one for
          the spinnaker. This is pretty standard on almost all competivily raced
          SJ24's. Since our spinnaker halyard comes out of the center faired
          portion of the mast head we can not have two spinnaker halyards. We
          therfore use the second Genoa halyard as a spare for both the
          Spinnaker and the Genoa. We alternate using the port and stb.halyards
          as primary to even the wear.

          Are you sure you are not using the center halyard as a Genoa halyard
          and one of the port/stb halyards for your spinnaker? That is opposite
          of what the boat was designed for.

          Our spinnaker halyard (the center one on the mast head) exits the mast
          about 10 ft above the deck on the stb side. That is so the bow person
          can hoist the spinnaker. It is on the stb side since almost
          all our roundings are to port. (Standard J24 set up.)
          Gil


          --- In SJ-24@y..., "Winkelstein, Peter" <pwink@u...> wrote:
          > Gil--
          >
          > This sounds reasonable to me. I guess the only way to determine
          what's best
          > here is to race the rigs against each other!
          >
          > Where do you run your spinnaker halyard? My boat came with two--one
          to port
          > and one to starboard, both exiting through blocks at the base of the
          mast,
          > then running through cheek blocks along the cabin top to cam cleats
          near the
          > cockpit. This requires someone in the cockpit to do the hoist. I
          have
          > mounted a cam cleat on the mast above the exit block for one of the
          > halyards, which allows the foredeck crew to do the hoist, freeing
          the
          > cockpit crew to help the spinnaker out of the cabin. This seems to
          speed
          > things up a bit.
          >
          > I'm not sure why there are two spinnaker halyards--perhaps the
          second is for
          > a blooper (my boat came with one, which I have never flown in
          competition).
          > I've left the second halyard rigged as a spare, although each year I
          wonder
          > if the weight is worth it.
          >
          > Peter
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Gil Lund [mailto:gil@l...]
          > Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 1:29 PM
          > To: SJ-24@y...
          > Subject: [SJ-24] Re:tweakers
          >
          >
          > Peter
          > That is the same set up we tried. The key word is "almost all
          > conditions". We found that to give a decent angle to the sheet going
          > to the clew thru the pole tip in heavy air the block had to be quite
          > far forward. That made it difficult to control the pole and the luff
          > tension in normal conditions. When we race, depending on the
          tactical
          > situation the pole must be capable of moving quickly thru an angle
          of
          > 0-60 deg without loosing control of the luff tension. (0 beeing
          right
          > on the forestay) This is not practical using a tweeker block located
          > in a fixed position. Remember that with the competition we have out
          > here, loosing the spinnaker luff for just 10sec could easily drop
          you
          > a couple of places.
          >
          > After many years we also convinced ourself to elliminate the
          tweekers
          > altogether and for the last few years we just have a set of snatch
          > blocks on the toe rail at the max with of the boat. We only use them
          > in VERY heavy air. At the last Nationals we did not use them at all.
          > At times it was blowing 20 kt+. With this set up we have quick and
          > full control of the pole and luff tension at ALL times and we save
          > weight by trading one short foreguy line for two tweeker lines.
          >
          > Another important thing is that elliminating the weight of the
          tweeker
          > blocks from the sheets significantly improves spinnaker control in
          > light air.
          >
          > We run both the topping lift and the foreguy to cleats behind the
          mast
          > and they are controled by the foredeck person. Our foreguy is
          therfore
          > very short and much lighter than any tweeker lines.
          > Gil
          >
          >
          > --- In SJ-24@y..., "Winkelstein, Peter" <pwink@u...> wrote:
          > > Gil--
          > >
          > > Perhaps I don't understand your tweaker set-up. Mine are
          adjustable
          > with a
          > > line from the cockpit. The line runs through a block attached far
          > enough
          > > forward so that it keeps the pole down in almost all conditions,
          > including
          > > competitive venues. We don't have any other SJ24s racing here
          > (Buffalo, NY),
          > > so I can't gauge my performance against them, but I'm beating just
          > about
          > > everyone else PHRF with this rig. Getting rid of the downhaul
          > simplifies the
          > > pole handling a bit and gets some weight off the bow (which, of
          > course, in
          > > the SJ24 is really critical).
          > >
          > > Peter
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > -----Original Message-----
          > > From: Gil Lund [mailto:gil@l...]
          > > Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 2:05 PM
          > > To: SJ-24@y...
          > > Subject: [SJ-24] Re: remove toe-rails? (how to)
          > >
          > >
          > > Peter / John
          > > We tried the no pole/tweeker only on Snappy but found that it does
          > not
          > > work well if you want to fly the spinnaker competivivly. Some
          j24,s
          > > here in Seattle tried it but they are mostly all back to the pole.
          > > Main problem is that to be able to reach up beyond about 45 deg
          the
          > > winward tweeker must be far forward. Also as soon as you start
          > > reaching up, (say to prevent beeing over-run to windward) someone
          > has
          > > to move the tweeeker forward. Doing that quickly while the sheet
          is
          > > loaded is not practical.
          > >
          > > If you, like me are the type who hates it when someone "rolls you"
          > to
          > > winward on a downwind leg you will need the pole for quick and
          good
          > > luff control. I also love to roll people if I can, particularly
          > > unsavoury guys like Mark Rider and having only a fixed tweeker far
          > > forward makes that next to impossible.
          > >
          > > In summary if you want to sail downwind tactically and
          competitivly
          > > using a big mast head symetrical spinnaker like you have on the
          SJ24
          > > it is my experience that the pole is a must.
          > >
          > > I have also found that in heavy air with broaching conditions the
          > > spinnaker sheets needs to be tweeked down at about a couple of
          feet
          > > behind the mast and as far out as you can get. That is, on the toe
          > > rail. If you have the blocks in the back like John suggest you are
          > > realy setting youself up for a nasty uncontrollable side to side
          > roll
          > > and subsequent broach. Note that the toe rail is structuraly one
          of
          > > the strongest tie down points on the boat. Much stronger in fact
          > than
          > > the genoa tracks. Yes, I do have cracks in the gel coat both
          places
          > > and the boat does leak some but if you are serious about racing
          that
          > > is the price you have to pay.
          > > Gil
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In SJ-24@y..., "Winkelstein, Peter" <pwink@u...> wrote:
          > > > Yes--that's the idea. They are barber-haulers for the spinnaker
          > > sheets; aka
          > > > twings. I use a block tied to a short (about 6 foot) piece of
          > line.
          > > I lead
          > > > the line through another block on the toe rail about amidships
          and
          > > then back
          > > > to a small cam cleat attached to a stanchion. You lead your
          > > spinnaker sheets
          > > > through the block tied to the line. When flying the spinnaker,
          you
          > > pull the
          > > > tweaker on the pole side (on the guy) all the way in and let the
          > > tweaker on
          > > > the sheet side all the way out (you can do some fine tuning, but
          > > this is the
          > > > way to start). This gives the guy a better angle for adjusting
          the
          > > pole.
          > > > I've found that this allows you to do away with the pole
          downhaul
          > > (another
          > > > J24 idea).
          > > >
          > > > Take a look at the Harken catalog or web site--they have some
          nice
          > > diagrams.
          > > >
          > > > Peter
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > -----Original Message-----
          > > > From: John Sexton [mailto:wordguy7@y...]
          > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 3:54 PM
          > > > To: SJ-24@y...
          > > > Subject: RE: [SJ-24] remove toe-rails? (how to)
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > is a tweeker something like a barbur haul?
          > > >
          > > > John
          > > >
          > > > --- "Winkelstein, Peter" <pwink@u...> wrote:
          > > > > I run my spinnaker blocks and tweaker blocks from
          > > > > the toe rail--works fine
          > > > > for me!
          > > > >
          > > > > BTW, for those racing spinnaker, I don't bother with
          > > > > a pole down-haul
          > > > > anymore, just the tweakers. Anybody else with this
          > > > > rig?
          > > > >
          > > > > Peter Winkelstein
          > > > > Shade of Avalon
          > > > > #160
          > > > >
          > > > > -----Original Message-----
          > > > > From: Morrison, John
          > > > > [mailto:johnm@v...]
          > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 12:11 PM
          > > > > To: 'SJ-24@y...'
          > > > > Subject: RE: [SJ-24] remove toe-rails? (how to)
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > The use of 3M 5200 would allow you to eliminate the
          > > > > bolts, and reduce the
          > > > > chance of leaks by 50. Just epoxy the holes after
          > > > > the toe-rail sets in the
          > > > > 5200. I say this assuming you're not running
          > > > > spinnaker blocks from the
          > > > > toe-rail...which you shouldn't do anyhow.
          > > > > Either way you go is fine.
          > > > >
          > > > > John
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > -----Original Message-----
          > > > > From: Andy Shanks [mailto:shanks11@s...]
          > > > > Sent: September 26, 2001 8:49 AM
          > > > > To: SJ-24@y...
          > > > > Subject: Re: [SJ-24] remove toe-rails? (how to)
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > 3M 5200 is a very tenacious adhesive. If applied
          > > > > correctly it can pull gel
          > > > > coat off the boat. On the other hand, this boat is
          > > > > 30 years old. What is
          > > > > the likelihood that you or anyone else will be doing
          > > > > this again?
          > > > >
          > > > > At 11:38 AM 09/26/2001 -0400, you wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > John- The 3m 5200 is listed in the West catalog as
          > > > > an adhesive/sealant.
          > > > > Would this be a problem in removing the rails in the
          > > > > future?? I don't plan
          > > > >
          > > > > on doing this but once but you never know. The 3m
          > > > > prices in general might
          > > > > make it a bit pricy for the amount I will need. The
          > > > > Woolsey Dolfinite is
          > > > > priced more friendly and the description sounds
          > > > > suitable.
          > > > > George Cunningham #18 "Spaghetti"
          > > > > Franklin TN
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > > > > SJ-24-unsubscribe@y...
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          > > > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
          > > > >
          > > > > ADVERTISEMENT
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/di/dietsmart/blueswim_top.gif>
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
          <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/di/dietsmart/blueswim_photo.jpg>
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
          <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/di/dietsmart/blueswim_starthere.g
          > > if>
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Height:
          > > > > 345678ft 01234567891011in
          > > > > Weight:
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/di/dietsmart/clear.gif>
          > > > >
          > > > <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/di/dietsmart/clear.gif>
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
          <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/di/dietsmart/blueswim_dslogo.gif>
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/di/dietsmart/clear.gif>
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
          <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=210544.1579876.3135161.1261774/D=egr
          > > oupmai
          > > > > l/S=1705065792:HM/A=792402/rand=275087565>
          > > > >
          > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > > > > SJ-24-unsubscribe@y...
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
          > > > > Terms of Service
          > > > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > > > > SJ-24-unsubscribe@y...
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > __________________________________________________
          > > > Do You Yahoo!?
          > > > Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with
          Yahoo!
          > > Messenger.
          > > > http://im.yahoo.com
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > > > SJ-24-unsubscribe@y...
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > > SJ-24-unsubscribe@y...
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > SJ-24-unsubscribe@y...
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        • Winkelstein, Peter
          Gil- Well, your posting took me aback--I had to go look at my boat to be sure I understood the rigging! I also have three halyards (plus the main halyard). The
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 3, 2001
          • 0 Attachment
            Gil-

            Well, your posting took me aback--I had to go look at my boat to be sure I
            understood the rigging!

            I also have three halyards (plus the main halyard). The center halyard
            enters the mast at the top via a sheave. The other two run through blocks
            fastened to a short metal crossbar at the top of the mast, one to port, one
            to starboard, then enter the mast about 3/4 of the way from the bottom. All
            of them exit the mast near deck level, two to starboard (including the
            center one) and one to port.

            I use the center halyard as the genoa halyard. I think this is correct for
            my boat for several reasons:
            1) It was rigged this way when I bought it (of course, it could have been
            wrong then!)
            2) The masthead sheave is for wire, and my genoa halyard is rope-to-wire (my
            spinnaker halyards are all rope).
            3) The exit block for the center halyard is in line with a large cheek block
            that leads the halyard to a winch on the starboard side of the cabin top.
            This is what I would expect for a headsail halyard.
            4) The blocks for the other halyards are off-center, so it would be
            difficult to get good tension on the headsail luff.

            Is it possible we have different masts? Mine is labeled "Kenyon All Spar".

            Peter

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Gil Lund [mailto:gil@...]
            Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 1:46 PM
            To: SJ-24@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [SJ-24] Re:tweakers


            We have done fairly well the last few years so I guess we are finally
            getting the rigging dialed in as well as any SJ24 around here. I have
            raced the boat since 1976 and the number of holes in the cabintop
            testify to a lot of bad ideas discarded.

            Currently our focus is on how to simplify the rigging to minimize the
            number of crew errors. Getting rid of the spinnaker tweekers was an
            effort in this direction. Also as you get better at coordinating the
            driving and sheeting the tweekers or choke blocks are less needed.

            We have 3 halyards on our boat. Two for the Genoa and one for
            the spinnaker. This is pretty standard on almost all competivily raced
            SJ24's. Since our spinnaker halyard comes out of the center faired
            portion of the mast head we can not have two spinnaker halyards. We
            therfore use the second Genoa halyard as a spare for both the
            Spinnaker and the Genoa. We alternate using the port and stb.halyards
            as primary to even the wear.

            Are you sure you are not using the center halyard as a Genoa halyard
            and one of the port/stb halyards for your spinnaker? That is opposite
            of what the boat was designed for.

            Our spinnaker halyard (the center one on the mast head) exits the mast
            about 10 ft above the deck on the stb side. That is so the bow person
            can hoist the spinnaker. It is on the stb side since almost
            all our roundings are to port. (Standard J24 set up.)
            Gil


            --- In SJ-24@y..., "Winkelstein, Peter" <pwink@u...> wrote:
            > Gil--
            >
            > This sounds reasonable to me. I guess the only way to determine
            what's best
            > here is to race the rigs against each other!
            >
            > Where do you run your spinnaker halyard? My boat came with two--one
            to port
            > and one to starboard, both exiting through blocks at the base of the
            mast,
            > then running through cheek blocks along the cabin top to cam cleats
            near the
            > cockpit. This requires someone in the cockpit to do the hoist. I
            have
            > mounted a cam cleat on the mast above the exit block for one of the
            > halyards, which allows the foredeck crew to do the hoist, freeing
            the
            > cockpit crew to help the spinnaker out of the cabin. This seems to
            speed
            > things up a bit.
            >
            > I'm not sure why there are two spinnaker halyards--perhaps the
            second is for
            > a blooper (my boat came with one, which I have never flown in
            competition).
            > I've left the second halyard rigged as a spare, although each year I
            wonder
            > if the weight is worth it.
            >
            > Peter
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Gil Lund [mailto:gil@l...]
            > Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 1:29 PM
            > To: SJ-24@y...
            > Subject: [SJ-24] Re:tweakers
            >
            >
            > Peter
            > That is the same set up we tried. The key word is "almost all
            > conditions". We found that to give a decent angle to the sheet going
            > to the clew thru the pole tip in heavy air the block had to be quite
            > far forward. That made it difficult to control the pole and the luff
            > tension in normal conditions. When we race, depending on the
            tactical
            > situation the pole must be capable of moving quickly thru an angle
            of
            > 0-60 deg without loosing control of the luff tension. (0 beeing
            right
            > on the forestay) This is not practical using a tweeker block located
            > in a fixed position. Remember that with the competition we have out
            > here, loosing the spinnaker luff for just 10sec could easily drop
            you
            > a couple of places.
            >
            > After many years we also convinced ourself to elliminate the
            tweekers
            > altogether and for the last few years we just have a set of snatch
            > blocks on the toe rail at the max with of the boat. We only use them
            > in VERY heavy air. At the last Nationals we did not use them at all.
            > At times it was blowing 20 kt+. With this set up we have quick and
            > full control of the pole and luff tension at ALL times and we save
            > weight by trading one short foreguy line for two tweeker lines.
            >
            > Another important thing is that elliminating the weight of the
            tweeker
            > blocks from the sheets significantly improves spinnaker control in
            > light air.
            >
            > We run both the topping lift and the foreguy to cleats behind the
            mast
            > and they are controled by the foredeck person. Our foreguy is
            therfore
            > very short and much lighter than any tweeker lines.
            > Gil
            >
            >
            > --- In SJ-24@y..., "Winkelstein, Peter" <pwink@u...> wrote:
            > > Gil--
            > >
            > > Perhaps I don't understand your tweaker set-up. Mine are
            adjustable
            > with a
            > > line from the cockpit. The line runs through a block attached far
            > enough
            > > forward so that it keeps the pole down in almost all conditions,
            > including
            > > competitive venues. We don't have any other SJ24s racing here
            > (Buffalo, NY),
            > > so I can't gauge my performance against them, but I'm beating just
            > about
            > > everyone else PHRF with this rig. Getting rid of the downhaul
            > simplifies the
            > > pole handling a bit and gets some weight off the bow (which, of
            > course, in
            > > the SJ24 is really critical).
            > >
            > > Peter
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > -----Original Message-----
            > > From: Gil Lund [mailto:gil@l...]
            > > Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 2:05 PM
            > > To: SJ-24@y...
            > > Subject: [SJ-24] Re: remove toe-rails? (how to)
            > >
            > >
            > > Peter / John
            > > We tried the no pole/tweeker only on Snappy but found that it does
            > not
            > > work well if you want to fly the spinnaker competivivly. Some
            j24,s
            > > here in Seattle tried it but they are mostly all back to the pole.
            > > Main problem is that to be able to reach up beyond about 45 deg
            the
            > > winward tweeker must be far forward. Also as soon as you start
            > > reaching up, (say to prevent beeing over-run to windward) someone
            > has
            > > to move the tweeeker forward. Doing that quickly while the sheet
            is
            > > loaded is not practical.
            > >
            > > If you, like me are the type who hates it when someone "rolls you"
            > to
            > > winward on a downwind leg you will need the pole for quick and
            good
            > > luff control. I also love to roll people if I can, particularly
            > > unsavoury guys like Mark Rider and having only a fixed tweeker far
            > > forward makes that next to impossible.
            > >
            > > In summary if you want to sail downwind tactically and
            competitivly
            > > using a big mast head symetrical spinnaker like you have on the
            SJ24
            > > it is my experience that the pole is a must.
            > >
            > > I have also found that in heavy air with broaching conditions the
            > > spinnaker sheets needs to be tweeked down at about a couple of
            feet
            > > behind the mast and as far out as you can get. That is, on the toe
            > > rail. If you have the blocks in the back like John suggest you are
            > > realy setting youself up for a nasty uncontrollable side to side
            > roll
            > > and subsequent broach. Note that the toe rail is structuraly one
            of
            > > the strongest tie down points on the boat. Much stronger in fact
            > than
            > > the genoa tracks. Yes, I do have cracks in the gel coat both
            places
            > > and the boat does leak some but if you are serious about racing
            that
            > > is the price you have to pay.
            > > Gil
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In SJ-24@y..., "Winkelstein, Peter" <pwink@u...> wrote:
            > > > Yes--that's the idea. They are barber-haulers for the spinnaker
            > > sheets; aka
            > > > twings. I use a block tied to a short (about 6 foot) piece of
            > line.
            > > I lead
            > > > the line through another block on the toe rail about amidships
            and
            > > then back
            > > > to a small cam cleat attached to a stanchion. You lead your
            > > spinnaker sheets
            > > > through the block tied to the line. When flying the spinnaker,
            you
            > > pull the
            > > > tweaker on the pole side (on the guy) all the way in and let the
            > > tweaker on
            > > > the sheet side all the way out (you can do some fine tuning, but
            > > this is the
            > > > way to start). This gives the guy a better angle for adjusting
            the
            > > pole.
            > > > I've found that this allows you to do away with the pole
            downhaul
            > > (another
            > > > J24 idea).
            > > >
            > > > Take a look at the Harken catalog or web site--they have some
            nice
            > > diagrams.
            > > >
            > > > Peter
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > -----Original Message-----
            > > > From: John Sexton [mailto:wordguy7@y...]
            > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 3:54 PM
            > > > To: SJ-24@y...
            > > > Subject: RE: [SJ-24] remove toe-rails? (how to)
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > is a tweeker something like a barbur haul?
            > > >
            > > > John
            > > >
            > > > --- "Winkelstein, Peter" <pwink@u...> wrote:
            > > > > I run my spinnaker blocks and tweaker blocks from
            > > > > the toe rail--works fine
            > > > > for me!
            > > > >
            > > > > BTW, for those racing spinnaker, I don't bother with
            > > > > a pole down-haul
            > > > > anymore, just the tweakers. Anybody else with this
            > > > > rig?
            > > > >
            > > > > Peter Winkelstein
            > > > > Shade of Avalon
            > > > > #160
            > > > >
            > > > > -----Original Message-----
            > > > > From: Morrison, John
            > > > > [mailto:johnm@v...]
            > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 12:11 PM
            > > > > To: 'SJ-24@y...'
            > > > > Subject: RE: [SJ-24] remove toe-rails? (how to)
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > The use of 3M 5200 would allow you to eliminate the
            > > > > bolts, and reduce the
            > > > > chance of leaks by 50. Just epoxy the holes after
            > > > > the toe-rail sets in the
            > > > > 5200. I say this assuming you're not running
            > > > > spinnaker blocks from the
            > > > > toe-rail...which you shouldn't do anyhow.
            > > > > Either way you go is fine.
            > > > >
            > > > > John
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > -----Original Message-----
            > > > > From: Andy Shanks [mailto:shanks11@s...]
            > > > > Sent: September 26, 2001 8:49 AM
            > > > > To: SJ-24@y...
            > > > > Subject: Re: [SJ-24] remove toe-rails? (how to)
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > 3M 5200 is a very tenacious adhesive. If applied
            > > > > correctly it can pull gel
            > > > > coat off the boat. On the other hand, this boat is
            > > > > 30 years old. What is
            > > > > the likelihood that you or anyone else will be doing
            > > > > this again?
            > > > >
            > > > > At 11:38 AM 09/26/2001 -0400, you wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > John- The 3m 5200 is listed in the West catalog as
            > > > > an adhesive/sealant.
            > > > > Would this be a problem in removing the rails in the
            > > > > future?? I don't plan
            > > > >
            > > > > on doing this but once but you never know. The 3m
            > > > > prices in general might
            > > > > make it a bit pricy for the amount I will need. The
            > > > > Woolsey Dolfinite is
            > > > > priced more friendly and the description sounds
            > > > > suitable.
            > > > > George Cunningham #18 "Spaghetti"
            > > > > Franklin TN
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > > > SJ-24-unsubscribe@y...
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > > > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            > > > >
            > > > > ADVERTISEMENT
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/di/dietsmart/blueswim_top.gif>
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
            <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/di/dietsmart/blueswim_photo.jpg>
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
            <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/di/dietsmart/blueswim_starthere.g
            > > if>
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Height:
            > > > > 345678ft 01234567891011in
            > > > > Weight:
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/di/dietsmart/clear.gif>
            > > > >
            > > > <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/di/dietsmart/clear.gif>
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
            <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/di/dietsmart/blueswim_dslogo.gif>
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/di/dietsmart/clear.gif>
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
            <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=210544.1579876.3135161.1261774/D=egr
            > > oupmai
            > > > > l/S=1705065792:HM/A=792402/rand=275087565>
            > > > >
            > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > > > SJ-24-unsubscribe@y...
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
            > > > > Terms of Service
            > > > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > > > SJ-24-unsubscribe@y...
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > __________________________________________________
            > > > Do You Yahoo!?
            > > > Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with
            Yahoo!
            > > Messenger.
            > > > http://im.yahoo.com
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > > SJ-24-unsubscribe@y...
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > SJ-24-unsubscribe@y...
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > SJ-24-unsubscribe@y...
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            SJ-24-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          • Gil Lund
            Peter Seems like you have a non standard masthead set up. From the factory the mast head fittings have all three pulleys in the head and the casting have a
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 3, 2001
            • 0 Attachment
              Peter

              Seems like you have a "non standard" masthead set up.

              From the factory the mast head fittings have all three pulleys in the
              head and the casting have a large fairlead in front of the center
              halyard pulley. The halyards then go down inside the mast all the way
              from the top.

              Since the spinnaker halyard can angle away from the boat centerline a
              significant amount during hoisting and lowering the fairlead in front
              of the center pulley is intended to prevent the halyard from entering
              the pulley with to much side angel. Thus preventing chaffing and
              possibly jamming between the pulley and the mast head casting. The
              two side pulleys does not have this fairlead feature. Since the Genoa
              halyards normally pull straight up it is not needed in front of these
              two pulleys. If you study the design of most sailboat masthead
              fittings you will see that this setup is fairly common.

              We hoist and retrive from the cockpit and during this process the
              spinnaker halyard angles off the boat centerline about 160 degrees.
              Thus the center pulley fairlead is a big benefit. In the few cases
              when we have had to use the spare side pulley for the spinnaker we
              have to be very carfull not to jam the halyard in the pulley by
              putting to much side load on it.

              Gil



              --- In SJ-24@y..., "Winkelstein, Peter" <pwink@u...> wrote:
              > Gil-
              >
              > Well, your posting took me aback--I had to go look at my boat to be
              sure I
              > understood the rigging!
              >
              > I also have three halyards (plus the main halyard). The center
              halyard
              > enters the mast at the top via a sheave. The other two run through
              blocks
              > fastened to a short metal crossbar at the top of the mast, one to
              port, one
              > to starboard, then enter the mast about 3/4 of the way from the
              bottom. All
              > of them exit the mast near deck level, two to starboard (including
              the
              > center one) and one to port.
              >
              > I use the center halyard as the genoa halyard. I think this is
              correct for
              > my boat for several reasons:
              > 1) It was rigged this way when I bought it (of course, it could have
              been
              > wrong then!)
              > 2) The masthead sheave is for wire, and my genoa halyard is
              rope-to-wire (my
              > spinnaker halyards are all rope).
              > 3) The exit block for the center halyard is in line with a large
              cheek block
              > that leads the halyard to a winch on the starboard side of the cabin
              top.
              > This is what I would expect for a headsail halyard.
              > 4) The blocks for the other halyards are off-center, so it would be
              > difficult to get good tension on the headsail luff.
              >
              > Is it possible we have different masts? Mine is labeled "Kenyon All
              Spar".
              >
              > Peter
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Gil Lund [mailto:gil@l...]
              > Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 1:46 PM
              > To: SJ-24@y...
              > Subject: [SJ-24] Re:tweakers
              >
              >
              > We have done fairly well the last few years so I guess we are
              finally
              > getting the rigging dialed in as well as any SJ24 around here. I
              have
              > raced the boat since 1976 and the number of holes in the cabintop
              > testify to a lot of bad ideas discarded.
              >
              > Currently our focus is on how to simplify the rigging to minimize
              the
              > number of crew errors. Getting rid of the spinnaker tweekers was an
              > effort in this direction. Also as you get better at coordinating the
              > driving and sheeting the tweekers or choke blocks are less needed.
              >
              > We have 3 halyards on our boat. Two for the Genoa and one for
              > the spinnaker. This is pretty standard on almost all competivily
              raced
              > SJ24's. Since our spinnaker halyard comes out of the center faired
              > portion of the mast head we can not have two spinnaker halyards. We
              > therfore use the second Genoa halyard as a spare for both the
              > Spinnaker and the Genoa. We alternate using the port and
              stb.halyards
              > as primary to even the wear.
              >
              > Are you sure you are not using the center halyard as a Genoa halyard
              > and one of the port/stb halyards for your spinnaker? That is
              opposite
              > of what the boat was designed for.
              >
              > Our spinnaker halyard (the center one on the mast head) exits the
              mast
              > about 10 ft above the deck on the stb side. That is so the bow
              person
              > can hoist the spinnaker. It is on the stb side since almost
              > all our roundings are to port. (Standard J24 set up.)
              > Gil
              >
              >
              > --- In SJ-24@y..., "Winkelstein, Peter" <pwink@u...> wrote:
              > > Gil--
              > >
              > > This sounds reasonable to me. I guess the only way to determine
              > what's best
              > > here is to race the rigs against each other!
              > >
              > > Where do you run your spinnaker halyard? My boat came with
              two--one
              > to port
              > > and one to starboard, both exiting through blocks at the base of
              the
              > mast,
              > > then running through cheek blocks along the cabin top to cam
              cleats
              > near the
              > > cockpit. This requires someone in the cockpit to do the hoist. I
              > have
              > > mounted a cam cleat on the mast above the exit block for one of
              the
              > > halyards, which allows the foredeck crew to do the hoist, freeing
              > the
              > > cockpit crew to help the spinnaker out of the cabin. This seems to
              > speed
              > > things up a bit.
              > >
              > > I'm not sure why there are two spinnaker halyards--perhaps the
              > second is for
              > > a blooper (my boat came with one, which I have never flown in
              > competition).
              > > I've left the second halyard rigged as a spare, although each year
              I
              > wonder
              > > if the weight is worth it.
              > >
              > > Peter
              > >
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: Gil Lund [mailto:gil@l...]
              > > Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 1:29 PM
              > > To: SJ-24@y...
              > > Subject: [SJ-24] Re:tweakers
              > >
              > >
              > > Peter
              > > That is the same set up we tried. The key word is "almost all
              > > conditions". We found that to give a decent angle to the sheet
              going
              > > to the clew thru the pole tip in heavy air the block had to be
              quite
              > > far forward. That made it difficult to control the pole and the
              luff
              > > tension in normal conditions. When we race, depending on the
              > tactical
              > > situation the pole must be capable of moving quickly thru an angle
              > of
              > > 0-60 deg without loosing control of the luff tension. (0 beeing
              > right
              > > on the forestay) This is not practical using a tweeker block
              located
              > > in a fixed position. Remember that with the competition we have
              out
              > > here, loosing the spinnaker luff for just 10sec could easily drop
              > you
              > > a couple of places.
              > >
              > > After many years we also convinced ourself to elliminate the
              > tweekers
              > > altogether and for the last few years we just have a set of snatch
              > > blocks on the toe rail at the max with of the boat. We only use
              them
              > > in VERY heavy air. At the last Nationals we did not use them at
              all.
              > > At times it was blowing 20 kt+. With this set up we have quick and
              > > full control of the pole and luff tension at ALL times and we save
              > > weight by trading one short foreguy line for two tweeker lines.
              > >
              > > Another important thing is that elliminating the weight of the
              > tweeker
              > > blocks from the sheets significantly improves spinnaker control in
              > > light air.
              > >
              > > We run both the topping lift and the foreguy to cleats behind the
              > mast
              > > and they are controled by the foredeck person. Our foreguy is
              > therfore
              > > very short and much lighter than any tweeker lines.
              > > Gil
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In SJ-24@y..., "Winkelstein, Peter" <pwink@u...> wrote:
              > > > Gil--
              > > >
              > > > Perhaps I don't understand your tweaker set-up. Mine are
              > adjustable
              > > with a
              > > > line from the cockpit. The line runs through a block attached
              far
              > > enough
              > > > forward so that it keeps the pole down in almost all conditions,
              > > including
              > > > competitive venues. We don't have any other SJ24s racing here
              > > (Buffalo, NY),
              > > > so I can't gauge my performance against them, but I'm beating
              just
              > > about
              > > > everyone else PHRF with this rig. Getting rid of the downhaul
              > > simplifies the
              > > > pole handling a bit and gets some weight off the bow (which, of
              > > course, in
              > > > the SJ24 is really critical).
              > > >
              > > > Peter
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > -----Original Message-----
              > > > From: Gil Lund [mailto:gil@l...]
              > > > Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 2:05 PM
              > > > To: SJ-24@y...
              > > > Subject: [SJ-24] Re: remove toe-rails? (how to)
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Peter / John
              > > > We tried the no pole/tweeker only on Snappy but found that it
              does
              > > not
              > > > work well if you want to fly the spinnaker competivivly. Some
              > j24,s
              > > > here in Seattle tried it but they are mostly all back to the
              pole.
              > > > Main problem is that to be able to reach up beyond about 45 deg
              > the
              > > > winward tweeker must be far forward. Also as soon as you start
              > > > reaching up, (say to prevent beeing over-run to windward)
              someone
              > > has
              > > > to move the tweeeker forward. Doing that quickly while the sheet
              > is
              > > > loaded is not practical.
              > > >
              > > > If you, like me are the type who hates it when someone "rolls
              you"
              > > to
              > > > winward on a downwind leg you will need the pole for quick and
              > good
              > > > luff control. I also love to roll people if I can, particularly
              > > > unsavoury guys like Mark Rider and having only a fixed tweeker
              far
              > > > forward makes that next to impossible.
              > > >
              > > > In summary if you want to sail downwind tactically and
              > competitivly
              > > > using a big mast head symetrical spinnaker like you have on the
              > SJ24
              > > > it is my experience that the pole is a must.
              > > >
              > > > I have also found that in heavy air with broaching conditions
              the
              > > > spinnaker sheets needs to be tweeked down at about a couple of
              > feet
              > > > behind the mast and as far out as you can get. That is, on the
              toe
              > > > rail. If you have the blocks in the back like John suggest you
              are
              > > > realy setting youself up for a nasty uncontrollable side to side
              > > roll
              > > > and subsequent broach. Note that the toe rail is structuraly one
              > of
              > > > the strongest tie down points on the boat. Much stronger in fact
              > > than
              > > > the genoa tracks. Yes, I do have cracks in the gel coat both
              > places
              > > > and the boat does leak some but if you are serious about racing
              > that
              > > > is the price you have to pay.
              > > > Gil
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > --- In SJ-24@y..., "Winkelstein, Peter" <pwink@u...> wrote:
              > > > > Yes--that's the idea. They are barber-haulers for the
              spinnaker
              > > > sheets; aka
              > > > > twings. I use a block tied to a short (about 6 foot) piece of
              > > line.
              > > > I lead
              > > > > the line through another block on the toe rail about amidships
              > and
              > > > then back
              > > > > to a small cam cleat attached to a stanchion. You lead your
              > > > spinnaker sheets
              > > > > through the block tied to the line. When flying the spinnaker,
              > you
              > > > pull the
              > > > > tweaker on the pole side (on the guy) all the way in and let
              the
              > > > tweaker on
              > > > > the sheet side all the way out (you can do some fine tuning,
              but
              > > > this is the
              > > > > way to start). This gives the guy a better angle for adjusting
              > the
              > > > pole.
              > > > > I've found that this allows you to do away with the pole
              > downhaul
              > > > (another
              > > > > J24 idea).
              > > > >
              > > > > Take a look at the Harken catalog or web site--they have some
              > nice
              > > > diagrams.
              > > > >
              > > > > Peter
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > -----Original Message-----
              > > > > From: John Sexton [mailto:wordguy7@y...]
              > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 3:54 PM
              > > > > To: SJ-24@y...
              > > > > Subject: RE: [SJ-24] remove toe-rails? (how to)
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > is a tweeker something like a barbur haul?
              > > > >
              > > > > John
              > > > >
              > > > > --- "Winkelstein, Peter" <pwink@u...> wrote:
              > > > > > I run my spinnaker blocks and tweaker blocks from
              > > > > > the toe rail--works fine
              > > > > > for me!
              > > > > >
              > > > > > BTW, for those racing spinnaker, I don't bother with
              > > > > > a pole down-haul
              > > > > > anymore, just the tweakers. Anybody else with this
              > > > > > rig?
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Peter Winkelstein
              > > > > > Shade of Avalon
              > > > > > #160
              > > > > >
              > > > > > -----Original Message-----
              > > > > > From: Morrison, John
              > > > > > [mailto:johnm@v...]
              > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 12:11 PM
              > > > > > To: 'SJ-24@y...'
              > > > > > Subject: RE: [SJ-24] remove toe-rails? (how to)
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > The use of 3M 5200 would allow you to eliminate the
              > > > > > bolts, and reduce the
              > > > > > chance of leaks by 50. Just epoxy the holes after
              > > > > > the toe-rail sets in the
              > > > > > 5200. I say this assuming you're not running
              > > > > > spinnaker blocks from the
              > > > > > toe-rail...which you shouldn't do anyhow.
              > > > > > Either way you go is fine.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > John
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > -----Original Message-----
              > > > > > From: Andy Shanks [mailto:shanks11@s...]
              > > > > > Sent: September 26, 2001 8:49 AM
              > > > > > To: SJ-24@y...
              > > > > > Subject: Re: [SJ-24] remove toe-rails? (how to)
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 3M 5200 is a very tenacious adhesive. If applied
              > > > > > correctly it can pull gel
              > > > > > coat off the boat. On the other hand, this boat is
              > > > > > 30 years old. What is
              > > > > > the likelihood that you or anyone else will be doing
              > > > > > this again?
              > > > > >
              > > > > > At 11:38 AM 09/26/2001 -0400, you wrote:
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > John- The 3m 5200 is listed in the West catalog as
              > > > > > an adhesive/sealant.
              > > > > > Would this be a problem in removing the rails in the
              > > > > > future?? I don't plan
              > > > > >
              > > > > > on doing this but once but you never know. The 3m
              > > > > > prices in general might
              > > > > > make it a bit pricy for the amount I will need. The
              > > > > > Woolsey Dolfinite is
              > > > > > priced more friendly and the description sounds
              > > > > > suitable.
              > > > > > George Cunningham #18 "Spaghetti"
              > > > > > Franklin TN
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > > > > > SJ-24-unsubscribe@y...
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              > > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              > > > > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              > > > > >
              > > > > > ADVERTISEMENT
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > >
              <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/di/dietsmart/blueswim_top.gif>
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
              <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/di/dietsmart/blueswim_photo.jpg>
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
              <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/di/dietsmart/blueswim_starthere.g
              > > > if>
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Height:
              > > > > > 345678ft 01234567891011in
              > > > > > Weight:
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/di/dietsmart/clear.gif>
              > > > > >
              > > > > <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/di/dietsmart/clear.gif>
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
              <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/di/dietsmart/blueswim_dslogo.gif>
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/di/dietsmart/clear.gif>
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
              <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=210544.1579876.3135161.1261774/D=egr
              > > > oupmai
              > > > > > l/S=1705065792:HM/A=792402/rand=275087565>
              > > > > >
              > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > > > > > SJ-24-unsubscribe@y...
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
              > > > > > Terms of Service
              > > > > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > > > > > SJ-24-unsubscribe@y...
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              > > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > __________________________________________________
              > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
              > > > > Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with
              > Yahoo!
              > > > Messenger.
              > > > > http://im.yahoo.com
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > > > > SJ-24-unsubscribe@y...
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > > > SJ-24-unsubscribe@y...
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              > >
              > >
              > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > > SJ-24-unsubscribe@y...
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > SJ-24-unsubscribe@y...
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            • Winkelstein, Peter
              I just got off the phone with Gene Adams. He says that the older boats had Kenyon spars (like mine), with the newer ones having Spartek (sp?). Sounds like we
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 3, 2001
              • 0 Attachment
                I just got off the phone with Gene Adams. He says that the older boats had
                Kenyon spars (like mine), with the newer ones having Spartek (sp?). Sounds
                like we have different masts, after all! Your masthead setup certainly makes
                sense, but it is not how mine was constructed.

                So far, we have not had any trouble with the spinnaker sheet jamming. The
                blocks at my masthead are mounted with swivels, so they handle the extreme
                angles required for a cockpit launch.

                Peter



                -----Original Message-----
                From: Gil Lund [mailto:gil@...]
                Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 2:12 PM
                To: SJ-24@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [SJ-24] Re:tweakers


                Peter

                Seems like you have a "non standard" masthead set up.

                From the factory the mast head fittings have all three pulleys in the
                head and the casting have a large fairlead in front of the center
                halyard pulley. The halyards then go down inside the mast all the way
                from the top.

                Since the spinnaker halyard can angle away from the boat centerline a
                significant amount during hoisting and lowering the fairlead in front
                of the center pulley is intended to prevent the halyard from entering
                the pulley with to much side angel. Thus preventing chaffing and
                possibly jamming between the pulley and the mast head casting. The
                two side pulleys does not have this fairlead feature. Since the Genoa
                halyards normally pull straight up it is not needed in front of these
                two pulleys. If you study the design of most sailboat masthead
                fittings you will see that this setup is fairly common.

                We hoist and retrive from the cockpit and during this process the
                spinnaker halyard angles off the boat centerline about 160 degrees.
                Thus the center pulley fairlead is a big benefit. In the few cases
                when we have had to use the spare side pulley for the spinnaker we
                have to be very carfull not to jam the halyard in the pulley by
                putting to much side load on it.

                Gil



                --- In SJ-24@y..., "Winkelstein, Peter" <pwink@u...> wrote:
                > Gil-
                >
                > Well, your posting took me aback--I had to go look at my boat to be
                sure I
                > understood the rigging!
                >
                > I also have three halyards (plus the main halyard). The center
                halyard
                > enters the mast at the top via a sheave. The other two run through
                blocks
                > fastened to a short metal crossbar at the top of the mast, one to
                port, one
                > to starboard, then enter the mast about 3/4 of the way from the
                bottom. All
                > of them exit the mast near deck level, two to starboard (including
                the
                > center one) and one to port.
                >
                > I use the center halyard as the genoa halyard. I think this is
                correct for
                > my boat for several reasons:
                > 1) It was rigged this way when I bought it (of course, it could have
                been
                > wrong then!)
                > 2) The masthead sheave is for wire, and my genoa halyard is
                rope-to-wire (my
                > spinnaker halyards are all rope).
                > 3) The exit block for the center halyard is in line with a large
                cheek block
                > that leads the halyard to a winch on the starboard side of the cabin
                top.
                > This is what I would expect for a headsail halyard.
                > 4) The blocks for the other halyards are off-center, so it would be
                > difficult to get good tension on the headsail luff.
                >
                > Is it possible we have different masts? Mine is labeled "Kenyon All
                Spar".
                >
                > Peter
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Gil Lund [mailto:gil@l...]
                > Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 1:46 PM
                > To: SJ-24@y...
                > Subject: [SJ-24] Re:tweakers
                >
                >
                > We have done fairly well the last few years so I guess we are
                finally
                > getting the rigging dialed in as well as any SJ24 around here. I
                have
                > raced the boat since 1976 and the number of holes in the cabintop
                > testify to a lot of bad ideas discarded.
                >
                > Currently our focus is on how to simplify the rigging to minimize
                the
                > number of crew errors. Getting rid of the spinnaker tweekers was an
                > effort in this direction. Also as you get better at coordinating the
                > driving and sheeting the tweekers or choke blocks are less needed.
                >
                > We have 3 halyards on our boat. Two for the Genoa and one for
                > the spinnaker. This is pretty standard on almost all competivily
                raced
                > SJ24's. Since our spinnaker halyard comes out of the center faired
                > portion of the mast head we can not have two spinnaker halyards. We
                > therfore use the second Genoa halyard as a spare for both the
                > Spinnaker and the Genoa. We alternate using the port and
                stb.halyards
                > as primary to even the wear.
                >
                > Are you sure you are not using the center halyard as a Genoa halyard
                > and one of the port/stb halyards for your spinnaker? That is
                opposite
                > of what the boat was designed for.
                >
                > Our spinnaker halyard (the center one on the mast head) exits the
                mast
                > about 10 ft above the deck on the stb side. That is so the bow
                person
                > can hoist the spinnaker. It is on the stb side since almost
                > all our roundings are to port. (Standard J24 set up.)
                > Gil
                >
                >
                > --- In SJ-24@y..., "Winkelstein, Peter" <pwink@u...> wrote:
                > > Gil--
                > >
                > > This sounds reasonable to me. I guess the only way to determine
                > what's best
                > > here is to race the rigs against each other!
                > >
                > > Where do you run your spinnaker halyard? My boat came with
                two--one
                > to port
                > > and one to starboard, both exiting through blocks at the base of
                the
                > mast,
                > > then running through cheek blocks along the cabin top to cam
                cleats
                > near the
                > > cockpit. This requires someone in the cockpit to do the hoist. I
                > have
                > > mounted a cam cleat on the mast above the exit block for one of
                the
                > > halyards, which allows the foredeck crew to do the hoist, freeing
                > the
                > > cockpit crew to help the spinnaker out of the cabin. This seems to
                > speed
                > > things up a bit.
                > >
                > > I'm not sure why there are two spinnaker halyards--perhaps the
                > second is for
                > > a blooper (my boat came with one, which I have never flown in
                > competition).
                > > I've left the second halyard rigged as a spare, although each year
                I
                > wonder
                > > if the weight is worth it.
                > >
                > > Peter
                > >
                > >
                > > -----Original Message-----
                > > From: Gil Lund [mailto:gil@l...]
                > > Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 1:29 PM
                > > To: SJ-24@y...
                > > Subject: [SJ-24] Re:tweakers
                > >
                > >
                > > Peter
                > > That is the same set up we tried. The key word is "almost all
                > > conditions". We found that to give a decent angle to the sheet
                going
                > > to the clew thru the pole tip in heavy air the block had to be
                quite
                > > far forward. That made it difficult to control the pole and the
                luff
                > > tension in normal conditions. When we race, depending on the
                > tactical
                > > situation the pole must be capable of moving quickly thru an angle
                > of
                > > 0-60 deg without loosing control of the luff tension. (0 beeing
                > right
                > > on the forestay) This is not practical using a tweeker block
                located
                > > in a fixed position. Remember that with the competition we have
                out
                > > here, loosing the spinnaker luff for just 10sec could easily drop
                > you
                > > a couple of places.
                > >
                > > After many years we also convinced ourself to elliminate the
                > tweekers
                > > altogether and for the last few years we just have a set of snatch
                > > blocks on the toe rail at the max with of the boat. We only use
                them
                > > in VERY heavy air. At the last Nationals we did not use them at
                all.
                > > At times it was blowing 20 kt+. With this set up we have quick and
                > > full control of the pole and luff tension at ALL times and we save
                > > weight by trading one short foreguy line for two tweeker lines.
                > >
                > > Another important thing is that elliminating the weight of the
                > tweeker
                > > blocks from the sheets significantly improves spinnaker control in
                > > light air.
                > >
                > > We run both the topping lift and the foreguy to cleats behind the
                > mast
                > > and they are controled by the foredeck person. Our foreguy is
                > therfore
                > > very short and much lighter than any tweeker lines.
                > > Gil
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In SJ-24@y..., "Winkelstein, Peter" <pwink@u...> wrote:
                > > > Gil--
                > > >
                > > > Perhaps I don't understand your tweaker set-up. Mine are
                > adjustable
                > > with a
                > > > line from the cockpit. The line runs through a block attached
                far
                > > enough
                > > > forward so that it keeps the pole down in almost all conditions,
                > > including
                > > > competitive venues. We don't have any other SJ24s racing here
                > > (Buffalo, NY),
                > > > so I can't gauge my performance against them, but I'm beating
                just
                > > about
                > > > everyone else PHRF with this rig. Getting rid of the downhaul
                > > simplifies the
                > > > pole handling a bit and gets some weight off the bow (which, of
                > > course, in
                > > > the SJ24 is really critical).
                > > >
                > > > Peter
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > -----Original Message-----
                > > > From: Gil Lund [mailto:gil@l...]
                > > > Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 2:05 PM
                > > > To: SJ-24@y...
                > > > Subject: [SJ-24] Re: remove toe-rails? (how to)
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Peter / John
                > > > We tried the no pole/tweeker only on Snappy but found that it
                does
                > > not
                > > > work well if you want to fly the spinnaker competivivly. Some
                > j24,s
                > > > here in Seattle tried it but they are mostly all back to the
                pole.
                > > > Main problem is that to be able to reach up beyond about 45 deg
                > the
                > > > winward tweeker must be far forward. Also as soon as you start
                > > > reaching up, (say to prevent beeing over-run to windward)
                someone
                > > has
                > > > to move the tweeeker forward. Doing that quickly while the sheet
                > is
                > > > loaded is not practical.
                > > >
                > > > If you, like me are the type who hates it when someone "rolls
                you"
                > > to
                > > > winward on a downwind leg you will need the pole for quick and
                > good
                > > > luff control. I also love to roll people if I can, particularly
                > > > unsavoury guys like Mark Rider and having only a fixed tweeker
                far
                > > > forward makes that next to impossible.
                > > >
                > > > In summary if you want to sail downwind tactically and
                > competitivly
                > > > using a big mast head symetrical spinnaker like you have on the
                > SJ24
                > > > it is my experience that the pole is a must.
                > > >
                > > > I have also found that in heavy air with broaching conditions
                the
                > > > spinnaker sheets needs to be tweeked down at about a couple of
                > feet
                > > > behind the mast and as far out as you can get. That is, on the
                toe
                > > > rail. If you have the blocks in the back like John suggest you
                are
                > > > realy setting youself up for a nasty uncontrollable side to side
                > > roll
                > > > and subsequent broach. Note that the toe rail is structuraly one
                > of
                > > > the strongest tie down points on the boat. Much stronger in fact
                > > than
                > > > the genoa tracks. Yes, I do have cracks in the gel coat both
                > places
                > > > and the boat does leak some but if you are serious about racing
                > that
                > > > is the price you have to pay.
                > > > Gil
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > --- In SJ-24@y..., "Winkelstein, Peter" <pwink@u...> wrote:
                > > > > Yes--that's the idea. They are barber-haulers for the
                spinnaker
                > > > sheets; aka
                > > > > twings. I use a block tied to a short (about 6 foot) piece of
                > > line.
                > > > I lead
                > > > > the line through another block on the toe rail about amidships
                > and
                > > > then back
                > > > > to a small cam cleat attached to a stanchion. You lead your
                > > > spinnaker sheets
                > > > > through the block tied to the line. When flying the spinnaker,
                > you
                > > > pull the
                > > > > tweaker on the pole side (on the guy) all the way in and let
                the
                > > > tweaker on
                > > > > the sheet side all the way out (you can do some fine tuning,
                but
                > > > this is the
                > > > > way to start). This gives the guy a better angle for adjusting
                > the
                > > > pole.
                > > > > I've found that this allows you to do away with the pole
                > downhaul
                > > > (another
                > > > > J24 idea).
                > > > >
                > > > > Take a look at the Harken catalog or web site--they have some
                > nice
                > > > diagrams.
                > > > >
                > > > > Peter
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > -----Original Message-----
                > > > > From: John Sexton [mailto:wordguy7@y...]
                > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 3:54 PM
                > > > > To: SJ-24@y...
                > > > > Subject: RE: [SJ-24] remove toe-rails? (how to)
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > is a tweeker something like a barbur haul?
                > > > >
                > > > > John
                > > > >
                > > > > --- "Winkelstein, Peter" <pwink@u...> wrote:
                > > > > > I run my spinnaker blocks and tweaker blocks from
                > > > > > the toe rail--works fine
                > > > > > for me!
                > > > > >
                > > > > > BTW, for those racing spinnaker, I don't bother with
                > > > > > a pole down-haul
                > > > > > anymore, just the tweakers. Anybody else with this
                > > > > > rig?
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Peter Winkelstein
                > > > > > Shade of Avalon
                > > > > > #160
                > > > > >
                > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                > > > > > From: Morrison, John
                > > > > > [mailto:johnm@v...]
                > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 12:11 PM
                > > > > > To: 'SJ-24@y...'
                > > > > > Subject: RE: [SJ-24] remove toe-rails? (how to)
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > The use of 3M 5200 would allow you to eliminate the
                > > > > > bolts, and reduce the
                > > > > > chance of leaks by 50. Just epoxy the holes after
                > > > > > the toe-rail sets in the
                > > > > > 5200. I say this assuming you're not running
                > > > > > spinnaker blocks from the
                > > > > > toe-rail...which you shouldn't do anyhow.
                > > > > > Either way you go is fine.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > John
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                > > > > > From: Andy Shanks [mailto:shanks11@s...]
                > > > > > Sent: September 26, 2001 8:49 AM
                > > > > > To: SJ-24@y...
                > > > > > Subject: Re: [SJ-24] remove toe-rails? (how to)
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > 3M 5200 is a very tenacious adhesive. If applied
                > > > > > correctly it can pull gel
                > > > > > coat off the boat. On the other hand, this boat is
                > > > > > 30 years old. What is
                > > > > > the likelihood that you or anyone else will be doing
                > > > > > this again?
                > > > > >
                > > > > > At 11:38 AM 09/26/2001 -0400, you wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > John- The 3m 5200 is listed in the West catalog as
                > > > > > an adhesive/sealant.
                > > > > > Would this be a problem in removing the rails in the
                > > > > > future?? I don't plan
                > > > > >
                > > > > > on doing this but once but you never know. The 3m
                > > > > > prices in general might
                > > > > > make it a bit pricy for the amount I will need. The
                > > > > > Woolsey Dolfinite is
                > > > > > priced more friendly and the description sounds
                > > > > > suitable.
                > > > > > George Cunningham #18 "Spaghetti"
                > > > > > Franklin TN
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > > > > SJ-24-unsubscribe@y...
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                > > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                > > > > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                > > > > >
                > > > > > ADVERTISEMENT
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > >
                <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/di/dietsmart/blueswim_top.gif>
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
                <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/di/dietsmart/blueswim_photo.jpg>
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
                <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/di/dietsmart/blueswim_starthere.g
                > > > if>
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Height:
                > > > > > 345678ft 01234567891011in
                > > > > > Weight:
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/di/dietsmart/clear.gif>
                > > > > >
                > > > > <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/di/dietsmart/clear.gif>
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
                <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/di/dietsmart/blueswim_dslogo.gif>
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/di/dietsmart/clear.gif>
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
                <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=210544.1579876.3135161.1261774/D=egr
                > > > oupmai
                > > > > > l/S=1705065792:HM/A=792402/rand=275087565>
                > > > > >
                > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > > > > SJ-24-unsubscribe@y...
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                > > > > > Terms of Service
                > > > > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > > > > SJ-24-unsubscribe@y...
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                > > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > __________________________________________________
                > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
                > > > > Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with
                > Yahoo!
                > > > Messenger.
                > > > > http://im.yahoo.com
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > > > SJ-24-unsubscribe@y...
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > > SJ-24-unsubscribe@y...
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                > >
                > >
                > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > SJ-24-unsubscribe@y...
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > SJ-24-unsubscribe@y...
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



                To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                SJ-24-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.