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Re: [SJ-24] Re: Sailing to Hawaii

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  • robier@insightbb.com
    While sailing to Hawaii is something that I am putting off until I gain more experience, I am wondering if, even with more sail time under my belt on the Great
    Message 1 of 27 , Mar 3, 2008
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      While sailing to Hawaii is something that I am putting off until I gain more experience, I am wondering if, even with more sail time under my belt on the Great Lakes this summer, I would be better off in a larger boat.  I looked at a  1980 J30 with inboard diesel this weekend.  I subsequently looked up J30's on the net and noticed that during a 1979 trans atlantic race, which resulted in the worst racing disaster in history due to storms, (14 yachts abandoned and 15 dead), 2 J30's made it through without much harm, both suffering only two knock downs and no pitch poling.  While I would never part ways with my SJ24, I think trans-ocean travel is probably outside her limitations.  I actually have more pacific ocean time than I let on, having crewed on board a catamaran from Kailua - Kona to Maui to Necker Island and Gardner Pinicales and back.  I spend about two months every year in Kona as my sister in law manages the Kona Coast Resort.
       
      Bob
      Hull # 81
      Rose Kennedy's Revenge  

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: GC138 <gc138@...>
      Date: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 8:01
      Subject: Re: [SJ-24] Re: Sailing to Hawaii
      To: SJ-24@yahoogroups.com

      > Bill,
      > My understanding is that most all containers sink even tho'
      > thousands are lost overboard each year. However, lots of them
      > have bouyant cargo and it takes a lot to sink them and they
      > float for weeks sometimes. I have not been able to to the right
      > search to come up with any good factual info on this just yet
      > but I'm looking. BTW, I envy your destroyer experience.
      > George #18 Spaghetti
      >
      >
      >
      > In a message dated 02/25/08 21:51:11 Central Standard Time,
      > captwsims@... writes:
      > I remember reading one post that claimed Bill sailed the boat
      > from
      > Hawaii to Panama and thru the canal into the Western Carribean,
      > but
      > I wouldn't vouch for that being true.
      >
      > I was VERY concerned when I heard he was leaving the NW United
      > States for Hawaii in late October/early November. I'm a retired
      > Navy Officer who has spent alot of time at sea, and no way would
      > I
      > want to be in the North Pacific after October 1st! The fact he
      > made
      > it doesn't mean it's a lark.
      >
      > I've done enough open ocean time on destroyers and cruisers that
      > I
      > have no interest at all in blue water sailing. And making one of
      > our IOR quarter tonners safe for that kind of sailing is of
      > course
      > possible but lots of work.
      >
      > I used to crew on a offshore boat out of San Diego, and remember
      > one
      > skipper talking about hitting something hard when about a day
      > away
      > from Oahu, and the boat sinking in about 5 minutes. They were
      > able
      > to get a MayDay off, and another boat in the race rescued them.
      >
      > I'd rather be on something built strong enough to run over
      > adrift
      > containers!
      >
      > Bill Sims
      > Mandeville, LA
      >
      >
      >  
      >
    • mmccarroll@chem.siu.edu
      I think you are thinking in the right direction here, if you are looking for and offshore racer. If you are looking to only cruise a heavier, yet slower boat
      Message 2 of 27 , Mar 3, 2008
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        I think you are thinking in the right direction here, if you are looking for and offshore racer. If you are looking to only cruise a heavier, yet slower boat might be better (acknowledging that speed is sometimes safety).

        I do warn you of reading too much into the stats of the fastnet disaster. Based on my reading, there is a correlation with boat size, i.e. the 40+ foot boats faired better that the 30ish something boats. But the fact that a j30 survived and some other boat didn't probably had more to do with the microclimate of the storm and where they were when it hit. The fact they "only" had two knockdowns implies they were comparatively lucky. Nothing against the j30, though. Personally, I think sailing a San Jaun to hawaii is akin to climbing everest without a guide. Sure it can be done but there is a significant risk. Just because someone else has done it doesn't make it safe or even fun. I have a capri 18 and some has sailed that boat to hawaii. The guy wasn't a fool but it was a calculated risk I wouldn't take, unless I was 20 again and without family.
        -Matt
        -----Original Message-----

        From: robier@...
        Subj: Re: [SJ-24] Re: Sailing to Hawaii
        Date: Mon Mar 3, 2008 7:07 am
        Size: 6K
        To: SJ-24@yahoogroups.com

        While sailing to Hawaii is something that I am putting off until I gain more experience, I am wondering if, even with more sail time under my belt on the Great Lakes this summer, I would be better off in a larger boat. I looked at a 1980 J30 with inboard diesel this weekend. I subsequently looked up J30's on the net and noticed that duringa 1979 trans atlantic race, which resulted in the worst racing disaster in history due to storms, (14 yachts abandoned and 15 dead), 2 J30's made it through without much harm, both suffering only two knock downs and no pitch poling. While I would never part ways with my SJ24, I think trans-ocean travel is probably outside her limitations.I actually have more pacific ocean time than I let on, having crewed on board a catamaran from Kailua - Kona to Maui to Necker Island and Gardner Pinicales and back. I spend about two months every year in Kona as my sister in law manages the Kona Coast Resort.

        Bob
        Hull # 81
        Rose Kennedy's Revenge

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: GC138 <gc138@...>
        Date: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 8:01
        Subject: Re: [SJ-24] Re: Sailing to Hawaii
        To: SJ-24@yahoogroups.com

        > Bill,
        > My understanding is that most all containers sink even tho'
        > thousands are lost overboard each year. However, lots of them
        > have bouyant cargo and it takes a lot to sink them and they
        > float for weeks sometimes. I have not been able to to the right
        > search to come up with any good factual info on this just yet
        > but I'm looking. BTW, I envy your destroyer experience.
        > George #18 Spaghetti
        >
        >
        >
        > In a message dated 02/25/08 21:51:11 Central Standard Time,
        > captwsims@... writes:
        > I remember reading one post that claimed Bill sailed the boat
        > from
        > Hawaii to Panama and thru the canal into the Western Carribean,
        > but
        > I wouldn't vouch for that being true.
        >
        > I was VERY concerned when I heard he was leaving the NW United
        > States for Hawaii in late October/early November. I'm a retired
        > Navy Officer who has spent alot of time at sea, and no way would
        > I
        > want to be in the North Pacific after October 1st! The fact he
        > made
        > it doesn't mean it's a lark.
        >
        > I've done enough open ocean time on destroyers and cruisers that
        > I
        > have no interest at all in blue water sailing. And making one of
        > our IOR quarter tonners safe for that kind of sailing is of
        > course
        > possible but lots of work.
        >
        > I used to crew on a offshore boat out of San Diego, and remember
        > one
        > skipper talking about hitting something hard when about a day
        > away
        > from Oahu, and the boat sinking in about 5 minutes. They were
        > able
        > to get a MayDay off, and another boat in the race rescued them.
        >
        > I'd rather be on something built strong enough to run over
        > adrift
        > containers!
        >
        > Bill Sims
        > Mandeville, LA
        >
        >
        >
        >


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        --- message truncated ---
      • GC138
        Let s face it. Oceans have been crossed in boats as little as 6 long. I think the present record is 5 11 ( I m not quite sure). Any body of water may be
        Message 3 of 27 , Mar 3, 2008
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          Let's face it. Oceans have been crossed in boats as little as 6' long. I think the present record is 5' 11' ( I'm not quite sure). Any body of water may be traversed in any boat. There are lots of things which go into the decision of which boat are you going to use. First, is the destination the goal or is it the journey?  What is the sailing environment(climate)? How many folks? Several more considerations would be listed here.That would help one decide if you need speed or comfort or room or weight, etc etc.
          I would consider a coastal trip in the SJ24 if I could leave from my home port and not have to drop the mast, haul it and set it up again. It does not have a lot of cabin room, but, if it were just me or me and my wife for 4 or 5 days, the SJ24 would do. I plan on going up river from Old Hickory Lake TN to Kentucky Lake. It should be a several day trip and perfectly doable. Of course we don't have the same weather considerations you do on the ocean. But we do have some fierce fronts roaring across these parts quite commonly.
          I have read articles on weather by long time cruisers who advise that they have sailed for years and stayed out of trouble by keeping an eye on weather windows and staying away from storms etc.
          Seems like a lot of the sailors that are trying to do the hard feats of sailing have something to prove or are trying to set records. Like Matt says,... depends on your situation and what you're trying to accomplish. Just remember - Dreams can be the thoughts that create your future and keep you going through the daily slog we call life.
          I'm beyond retirement age and have recently decided that I'm too old to cruise - until I read the other day of an 80 year old who is just finishing building his own boat and is ready to cruise. So, maybe I can still have my dreams. I guess where there is a will............
          George #18 Spaghetti
           
           
           
          In a message dated 03/03/08 08:02:50 Central Standard Time, mmccarroll@... writes:

          I think you are thinking in the right direction here, if you are looking for and offshore racer. If you are looking to only cruise a heavier, yet slower boat might be better (acknowledging that speed is sometimes safety).

          I do warn you of reading too much into the stats of the fastnet disaster. Based on my reading, there is a correlation with boat size, i.e. the 40+ foot boats faired better that the 30ish something boats. But the fact that a j30 survived and some other boat didn't probably had more to do with the microclimate of the storm and where they were when it hit. The fact they "only" had two knockdowns implies they were comparatively lucky. Nothing against the j30, though. Personally, I think sailing a San Jaun to hawaii is akin to climbing everest without a guide. Sure it can be done but there is a significant risk. Just because someone else has done it doesn't make it safe or even fun. I have a capri 18 and some has sailed that boat to hawaii. The guy wasn't a fool but it was a calculated risk I wouldn't take, unless I was 20 again and without family.
          -Matt
          -----Original Message-----

          From: robier@insightbb. com
          Subj: Re: [SJ-24] Re: Sailing to Hawaii
          Date: Mon Mar 3, 2008 7:07 am
          Size: 6K
          To: SJ-24@yahoogroups. com

          While sailing to Hawaii is something that I am putting off until I gain more experience, I am wondering if, even with more sail time under my belt on the Great Lakes this summer, I would be better off in a larger boat. I looked at a 1980 J30 with inboard diesel this weekend. I subsequently looked up J30's on the net and noticed that duringa 1979 trans atlantic race, which resulted in the worst racing disaster in history due to storms, (14 yachts abandoned and 15 dead), 2 J30's made it through without much harm, both suffering only two knock downs and no pitch poling. While I would never part ways with my SJ24, I think trans-ocean travel is probably outside her limitations. I actually have more pacific ocean time than I let on, having crewed on board a catamaran from Kailua - Kona to Maui to Necker Island and Gardner Pinicales and back. I spend about two months every year in Kona as my sister in law manages the Kona Coast Resort.

          Bob
          Hull # 81
          Rose Kennedy's Revenge

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: GC138 <gc138@...>
          Date: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 8:01
          Subject: Re: [SJ-24] Re: Sailing to Hawaii
          To: SJ-24@yahoogroups. com

          > Bill,
          > My understanding is that most all containers sink even tho'
          > thousands are lost overboard each year. However, lots of them
          > have bouyant cargo and it takes a lot to sink them and they
          > float for weeks sometimes. I have not been able to to the right
          > search to come up with any good factual info on this just yet
          > but I'm looking. BTW, I envy your destroyer experience.
          > George #18 Spaghetti
          >
          >
          >
          > In a message dated 02/25/08 21:51:11 Central Standard Time,
          > captwsims@yahoo. com writes:
          > I remember reading one post that claimed Bill sailed the boat
          > from
          > Hawaii to Panama and thru the canal into the Western Carribean,
          > but
          > I wouldn't vouch for that being true.
          >
          > I was VERY concerned when I heard he was leaving the NW United
          > States for Hawaii in late October/early November. I'm a retired
          > Navy Officer who has spent alot of time at sea, and no way would
          > I
          > want to be in the North Pacific after October 1st! The fact he
          > made
          > it doesn't mean it's a lark.
          >
          > I've done enough open ocean time on destroyers and cruisers that
          > I
          > have no interest at all in blue water sailing. And making one of
          > our IOR quarter tonners safe for that kind of sailing is of
          > course
          > possible but lots of work.
          >
          > I used to crew on a offshore boat out of San Diego, and remember
          > one
          > skipper talking about hitting something hard when about a day
          > away
          > from Oahu, and the boat sinking in about 5 minutes. They were
          > able
          > to get a MayDay off, and another boat in the race rescued them.
          >
          > I'd rather be on something built strong enough to run over
          > adrift
          > containers!
          >
          > Bill Sims
          > Mandeville, LA
          >
          >
          >
          >


          Messages in this topic (23) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic
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          --- message truncated ---

           
        • native_fla_boy
          of course you d be better off in a larger boat if you define better off as more comfortable and safer... sailing across the ocean in a 24 ft boat can be
          Message 4 of 27 , Mar 3, 2008
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            of course you'd be "better off" in a larger boat if you define better
            off as more comfortable and safer... sailing across the ocean in a 24
            ft boat can be done, and with adequate planning/preparation and
            seamanship it is not patently unsafe... but, all other things being
            equal, the larger boat is more seaworthy... but they're not equal...
            for example, a relatively shallow, fin keeled hull, like most
            racer/cruisers, has a fairly broad upside-down metastable state,
            which means it will remain upside-down longer, it takes a bigger wave
            to roll it back upright, than a traditional full keeled deep hull...
            also important is the lowest point of downflooding, ie the lowest
            point at which water will enter the hull (hence the earlier discussin
            of a bridge deck)... these are some of the things to consider... so
            sail often, read alot, experiment with your boat, then decide what
            your level of skill, confidence, and pain tolerance is ... :-)

            --- In SJ-24@yahoogroups.com, robier@... wrote:
            >
            > While sailing to Hawaii is something that I am putting off until I
            gain more experience, I am wondering if, even with more sail time
            under my belt on the Great Lakes this summer, I would be better off
            in a larger boat. I looked at a 1980 J30 with inboard diesel this
            weekend. I subsequently looked up J30's on the net and noticed that
            during a 1979 trans atlantic race, which resulted in the worst racing
            disaster in history due to storms, (14 yachts abandoned and 15 dead),
            2 J30's made it through without much harm, both suffering only two
            knock downs and no pitch poling. While I would never part ways with
            my SJ24, I think trans-ocean travel is probably outside her
            limitations. I actually have more pacific ocean time than I let on,
            having crewed on board a catamaran from Kailua - Kona to Maui to
            Necker Island and Gardner Pinicales and back. I spend about two
            months every year in Kona as my sister in law manages the Kona Coast
            Resort.
            >
            > Bob
            > Hull # 81
            > Rose Kennedy's Revenge
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: GC138 <gc138@...>
            > Date: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 8:01
            > Subject: Re: [SJ-24] Re: Sailing to Hawaii
            > To: SJ-24@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > > Bill,
            > > My understanding is that most all containers sink even tho'
            > > thousands are lost overboard each year. However, lots of them
            > > have bouyant cargo and it takes a lot to sink them and they
            > > float for weeks sometimes. I have not been able to to the right
            > > search to come up with any good factual info on this just yet
            > > but I'm looking. BTW, I envy your destroyer experience.
            > > George #18 Spaghetti
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > In a message dated 02/25/08 21:51:11 Central Standard Time,
            > > captwsims@... writes:
            > > I remember reading one post that claimed Bill sailed the boat
            > > from
            > > Hawaii to Panama and thru the canal into the Western Carribean,
            > > but
            > > I wouldn't vouch for that being true.
            > >
            > > I was VERY concerned when I heard he was leaving the NW United
            > > States for Hawaii in late October/early November. I'm a retired
            > > Navy Officer who has spent alot of time at sea, and no way would
            > > I
            > > want to be in the North Pacific after October 1st! The fact he
            > > made
            > > it doesn't mean it's a lark.
            > >
            > > I've done enough open ocean time on destroyers and cruisers that
            > > I
            > > have no interest at all in blue water sailing. And making one of
            > > our IOR quarter tonners safe for that kind of sailing is of
            > > course
            > > possible but lots of work.
            > >
            > > I used to crew on a offshore boat out of San Diego, and remember
            > > one
            > > skipper talking about hitting something hard when about a day
            > > away
            > > from Oahu, and the boat sinking in about 5 minutes. They were
            > > able
            > > to get a MayDay off, and another boat in the race rescued them.
            > >
            > > I'd rather be on something built strong enough to run over
            > > adrift
            > > containers!
            > >
            > > Bill Sims
            > > Mandeville, LA
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
          • Mark Kanzler
            ... I would make one point here. Although,as Mark says, I experienced high winds, I m not sure what it did for me. When the breeze pipes up, I m very careful
            Message 5 of 27 , Mar 4, 2008
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              --- In SJ-24@yahoogroups.com, GC138 <gc138@...> wrote:
              I would make one point here. Although,as Mark says, I experienced
              high winds, I'm not sure what it did for me. When the breeze pipes
              up, I'm very careful and don't like high winds too much. Maybe
              that's the point - to make you careful...

              My opinion is that it's best to try high winds the first time
              as crew aboard a boat full of experienced sailors.

              It gives an appreciation for how hard it is to do things,
              and how violent and noisy things get.

              Most important, it is the first step in finding out if you
              will panic. Complete panic 100 miles from shore can be fatal.
              As a skipper, you cannot afford to freeze up in panic in a
              critical situation.

              I had a friend aboard, and winds got up to about 25 kts (maybe
              30). There was a lot of debris (logs & branches) in the water,
              so I had to be able to maneuver. He was getting nervous, and
              asked if we were in trouble (boat was heeling pretty good).
              I said "no, but we could get in trouble in a hurry if we
              aren't careful, but we'll be fine, and we're close to land"
              (about 1/4 mile or less). Once he knew I was not scared, but
              on high alert, he was fine.

              Next time we hit the same winds, he will be less afraid, and
              will already know the importance of acting quickly when
              something needs to be done (like taking down a headsail).
              He'll also know that the boat can take it.

              We ended up sailing into the lee of the island we were sailing
              around (Vashon) and taking down the sails, but even there it
              was fairly rough & windy.

              The first time I experienced a knockdown on a big boat (as
              opposed to a dinghy) was on a 33 ft. boat with a lot of very
              good sailors. It made it interesting instead of frightening.
              The boat laid on its side for quite awhile, and I stood on
              the side of the hull looking for something to do, but everything
              was already taken care of, so I just put my weight where it
              would add the most righting force and waited.

              There was no fear (I could have swam to shore if necessary, and
              there were a lot of boats around if we needed rescue), and I
              remember thinking "I wonder how this is going to turn out...?"

              After that race, between races in the regatta, I turned to
              the skipper and said "That was great! Can we do it again?"
              Any doubts the rest of the crew had about me were alleviated
              at that point. Som were ready to call it a day (we weren't
              going to be competitive in such a light boat anyways), but
              most wanted to finish the regatta, and nobody really minded
              staying out, so we finished the day just for fun.

              I also remember that we were no longer cold from the howling
              wind after that knockdown! It was quite a workout.
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