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Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant

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  • wordybirdy05-home@yahoo.com
    adrian, in case you are curious, there are recipes for vegan soufflés: http://www.veganrepresent.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13552
    Message 1 of 25 , Sep 1, 2010
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      adrian,
      in case you are curious, there are recipes for vegan soufflés:
      http://www.veganrepresent.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13552
      http://www.food.com/recipe/vegan-sweet-potato-souffle-196714
      http://www.theppk.com/recipes/dbrecipes/index.php?RecipeID=183

      worth a try. i know cheese may be addicting, but apart from the environmental devestations of raising the cattle for milk (we won't go to the subject of puss, blood and horomones that is also in that milk you drink), dairy is not good for your body..

      if you are already doing other things to lighten environmental impact..kudos to you.

      peace, nancy

      --- On Tue, 8/31/10, Adrian Maestas <giantsizeflower@...> wrote:

      From: Adrian Maestas <giantsizeflower@...>
      Subject: Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant
      To: SFVeg@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Tuesday, August 31, 2010, 10:22 AM

       

      Well I stopped driving years ago, ride my bike everywhere.
      Rode to Santa Cruz and back a few weeks ago, thinking about riding up to Mendocino over the 3 day weekend.

      But mostly postulating, that cheese to me is more important than many other terrible things we are facing these days. I'll give up many things before I give up cheese.

      --- On Tue, 8/31/10, philip gelb <phil@...> wrote:

      From: philip gelb <phil@...>
      Subject: Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant
      To: SFVeg@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Tuesday, August 31, 2010, 9:14 AM

       

      are you going to give these things up or just postulating? curious.


      phil


      On Aug 31, 2010, at 8:23 AM, Adrian Maestas wrote:


      I was vegan for a few years back in the mid 90's, but I like cheese and puff pastry.
      I know the animals are treated badly, but there are so many things in the world I will give up first before cheese. Like driving. And using paper products. patronizing companies that dump waste into the sea and freshwater rivers. Stuff like that. 

      I'll give all that up before cheese. And pastries. that egg replacer stuff doesn't make the patsry puff up enough. I've tried all the egg substitutes for baking, and it just is not the same. creamers and the like are easy to replace now with a soy based one, but until they figure out how to make a souffle without eggs.....

      My $.02


      --- On Mon, 8/30/10, Mitch Cohen <redbeerd@...> wrote:

      From: Mitch Cohen <redbeerd@...>
      Subject: RE: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant
      To: sfveg@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Monday, August 30, 2010, 11:36 PM

       

      there are omnivores who are in the front lines fighting against factory-farming. their reasons & ultimate goals are clearly different than ours. however, there are more potential anti-factory-farming omnivores than there are vegans. so, if one's short-term goals include drastically reducing factory-farming, i suggest we consider the anti-factory-farming "sustainable-farming" omnivore movement, and its leading, "showcase" restaurants (chez panisse, greens, gather, encuentro) as allies in the fight against factory-farming.


      if enough consciousness & awareness can be raised to get more omnivores to consider avoiding factory-farmed products, then omnivores will have to make plant-based food a huger percentage of their diet (since there simply is NOT enough non-factory-farmed animal-based "food" available to be a big portion of their diet, and it's much more expensive).

      a message telling folks anything short of 100% vegan just turns off too many people. let others tell them to transition to non-factory-farmed "food". once omnivores are willing to make changes and listen, hopefully they'll be more willing to hear our message


      To: SFVeg@yahoogroups.com
      From: gsmith59@...
      Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 21:52:05 -0700
      Subject: Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant

       
      It is for these reasons you state that I have never been there in the first
      place.

      I don't want to support a restaurant which glorifies the consumption of animal
      products as necessary for a good meal, be they from abused or from dead
      animals.

      When I transitioned from omnivore to a vegan diet the first thing I quit was
      dairy, and the second thing I quit was eggs. Only then did I say "what the
      heck" and went all the way to vegan.

      What might have made some sense 150 years ago in the days of small time Farmer
      MacDonald makes no ethical sense in the current era of cruel, mechanistic
      agribusiness.

      Greg

      -----Original Message-----

      >I was just at Green's two Sundays ago, because I had tickets to a piano 
      >concert in the Cowell Theater that is two steps away from Green's. I'm a 
      >vegan. 99% of the menu was full of eggs and dairy, particularly cheese.
      > 
      > After seeing the two documentaries from Tribe of Heart, Peaceable 
      >Kingdom and Peaceable Kingdom, the Journey Home, I see the egg and dairy 
      >industry as being as cruel as the meat industry. Eggs and dairy both
      >involve 
      >inhumane conditions and death. Living newborn male chicks are tossed
      >away 
      >in heaps like garbage on egg farms. Battery cages are torture chambers.
      > 
      >"Spent" hens are killed. Cows are kept pregnant all the time, suffer
      >from 
      >mammary infections, are pumped full of drugs and can't move, because they 
      >are tethered to the milk machines for life; their male offspring are
      >wrenched 
      >from them at birth and become veal, sent to slaughter after a short life 
      >of immobility. 
      > 
      > I am as repulsed at seeing "vegetarian" food as I am at a steakhouse.
      > 
      >I realize I cannot go back to Green's again.
      > 
      > Sincerely, Bonnie Knight, San Francisco






    • wordybirdy05-home@yahoo.com
      after years of waving the flag and telling people about the environmental/health impacts of eat animals, plus raising the ethical issue, i realize that this
      Message 2 of 25 , Sep 1, 2010
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        after years of waving the flag and telling people about the environmental/health impacts of eat animals, plus raising the ethical issue, i realize that this works for a very small % of people- those who are already contemplating the issue and thus ready to make the leap.

        for most others, my best weapon thus far is vegan cooking...not the slap your vegan burger on the grill and douse some ketchup between buns kinda cooking. but homemade lasagna with pasta made from scratch, risotto cooked to perfection, stuffed squash with quinoa etc etc. the kind of food that unsuspecting carnivores eat and appreciate, THEN find out there was no carcass in that meal. When i tell them this doesn't clog their arteries, zero cholesterol & low calories, then they get really interested (i live in italy and i tell you them italians are REALLY attached to their food).

        people wont' change because they are not willing to give up their habits. you give them a wonderful alternative and unless they are seriously hardcore, they will change. it just takes time, patience and a lot of dinner invitations to carnivors.

        as for rachel's detailed analysis a rapist/pedophile (thanks by the way for putting so much thought into it...:-) to me personally killing an animal whether a chick or a cow is a crime (thus my metaphore to rapist/pedophile). whether it is permissible by law or not. in my heart which loves all, it is not permissible.
        slavery may have been legal, but doenst' make it right, does it? 

        the definition of right in my book is simply based on the Golden Rule. if i dont' want to be enslaved, then it's WRONG for me to enslave another.  If i don't want to be killed, then it's wrong for me to kill another. it's as simple as that.  so please, those lawyers out there, no need to tear this one to pieces.

        i understand folks out there trying to lessen the killing by promoting grass fed beef i/o factory farm beef..ok, i get it.  but for me personally it's just as wrong to kill a factory raised cow as it is to kill a grass fed cow(definition of wrong see above explanation). so in terms of karmic points one is more or less equal to another (ok, factory farm animals suffer a lot more so it's heavier).  if this works, so be it....nevertheless, killing one life is still a murder- whether you are in iraq (where stoning is permitted for human beings), or in the USA.

        thank you for all who have contributed to this conversation...so much more interesting than talking about which football team won...i'm grateful for your time.

        peace, nancy

        --- On Tue, 8/31/10, Mitch Cohen <redbeerd@...> wrote:

        From: Mitch Cohen <redbeerd@...>
        Subject: RE: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant / step-by-step
        To: sfveg@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Tuesday, August 31, 2010, 9:25 AM

         

        piano-teaching is a bad comparison


        if you want to help as many animals as possible, one must reach omnivores who are turned off by the vegans who preach "nothing other than 100%-plant-based matters". if a vegan doesn't want to make that point (that "some" animal-eating is ok), then quietly allow others to make the point; and stand ready to educate people further after they've become open to change.

        once people are willing to open themselves to making very EXPENSIVE changes (yes, grass-fed costs much more than subsidized factory-farmed), they'll be open to hearing about more changes, such as:
        - tell government to end subsidies & water-giveaways to factory farming (that'll be a MAJOR deterence to meat-eaters!!)
        - increase the proportion of vegetables in your diet, since they are much more affordable, healthy & eco-friendly than meat
        - turn to broccoli & collards for calcium, rather than milk
        - eat more grains, nuts & beans for protein, rather than eggs & meat
        - keep increasing the proportion of plant-based foods in your diet: above 80%, 90%, 95%, 98%, 99%, ... 



        To: SFVeg@yahoogroups.com
        From: wordybirdy05-home@...
        Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 07:11:06 -0700
        Subject: Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant

         
        i understand the "step by step" approach of weaning people off first from factory farming then to veganism. that is good if you want to learn to play the piano.

        However, meat eating in my book is considered a crime against other beings. so asking people to eat only free range meat to start with is a bit like asking a pedophile/ rapist to only rape women (leave the kids alone), then eventually wean off raping women.

        does that make sense?

        to me no.

        stop killing means stop killing. dairy/eggs is part of the killing chain. so they are implicated too.

        i stopped going to Greens years ago because i could hardly find anything on the menu for me (a vegan). and the smell of stinking cheese made it an unpleasant experience for me.

        there are others such as Loving Hut, Cafe Gratitude, Herbivore, and many other truly compassionate eateries worth of our dollars.

        in peace,
        nancy

        --- On Mon, 8/30/10, Greg Smith <gsmith59@...> wrote:

        From: Greg Smith <gsmith59@...>
        Subject: Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant
        To: SFVeg@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, August 30, 2010, 9:52 PM

         

        It is for these reasons you state that I have never been there in the first
        place.

        I don't want to support a restaurant which glorifies the consumption of animal
        products as necessary for a good meal, be they from abused or from dead
        animals.

        When I transitioned from omnivore to a vegan diet the first thing I quit was
        dairy, and the second thing I quit was eggs. Only then did I say "what the
        heck" and went all the way to vegan.

        What might have made some sense 150 years ago in the days of small time Farmer
        MacDonald makes no ethical sense in the current era of cruel, mechanistic
        agribusiness.

        Greg

        -----Original Message-----

        >I was just at Green's two Sundays ago, because I had tickets to a piano
        >concert in the Cowell Theater that is two steps away from Green's. I'm a
        >vegan. 99% of the menu was full of eggs and dairy, particularly cheese.
        >
        > After seeing the two documentaries from Tribe of Heart, Peaceable
        >Kingdom and Peaceable Kingdom, the Journey Home, I see the egg and dairy
        >industry as being as cruel as the meat industry. Eggs and dairy both
        >involve
        >inhumane conditions and death. Living newborn male chicks are tossed
        >away
        >in heaps like garbage on egg farms. Battery cages are torture chambers.
        >
        >"Spent" hens are killed. Cows are kept pregnant all the time, suffer
        >from
        >mammary infections, are pumped full of drugs and can't move, because they
        >are tethered to the milk machines for life; their male offspring are
        >wrenched
        >from them at birth and become veal, sent to slaughter after a short life
        >of immobility.
        >
        > I am as repulsed at seeing "vegetarian" food as I am at a steakhouse.
        >
        >I realize I cannot go back to Green's again.
        >
        > Sincerely, Bonnie Knight, San Francisco


      • wordybirdy05-home@yahoo.com
        with all due respect Mitch, people who are tired of paying more for grass fed beef will simply return to eating fty farmed beef, because they don t have the
        Message 3 of 25 , Sep 1, 2010
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          with all due respect Mitch,
          people who are tired of paying more for grass fed beef will simply return to eating fty farmed beef, because they don't have the eco/moral dilmma that we vegans do. this will not effect long term and permenant change.

          the only way to change behavior is to offer a completely different pardigm, not simply give them lesser guilt alternative.

          peace,
          nancy

          --- On Tue, 8/31/10, Mitch Cohen <redbeerd@...> wrote:

          From: Mitch Cohen <redbeerd@...>
          Subject: RE: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant / step-by-step
          To: sfveg@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Tuesday, August 31, 2010, 9:25 AM

           

          piano-teaching is a bad comparison


          if you want to help as many animals as possible, one must reach omnivores who are turned off by the vegans who preach "nothing other than 100%-plant-based matters". if a vegan doesn't want to make that point (that "some" animal-eating is ok), then quietly allow others to make the point; and stand ready to educate people further after they've become open to change.

          once people are willing to open themselves to making very EXPENSIVE changes (yes, grass-fed costs much more than subsidized factory-farmed), they'll be open to hearing about more changes, such as:
          - tell government to end subsidies & water-giveaways to factory farming (that'll be a MAJOR deterence to meat-eaters!!)
          - increase the proportion of vegetables in your diet, since they are much more affordable, healthy & eco-friendly than meat
          - turn to broccoli & collards for calcium, rather than milk
          - eat more grains, nuts & beans for protein, rather than eggs & meat
          - keep increasing the proportion of plant-based foods in your diet: above 80%, 90%, 95%, 98%, 99%, ... 



          To: SFVeg@yahoogroups.com
          From: wordybirdy05-home@...
          Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 07:11:06 -0700
          Subject: Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant

           
          i understand the "step by step" approach of weaning people off first from factory farming then to veganism. that is good if you want to learn to play the piano.

          However, meat eating in my book is considered a crime against other beings. so asking people to eat only free range meat to start with is a bit like asking a pedophile/ rapist to only rape women (leave the kids alone), then eventually wean off raping women.

          does that make sense?

          to me no.

          stop killing means stop killing. dairy/eggs is part of the killing chain. so they are implicated too.

          i stopped going to Greens years ago because i could hardly find anything on the menu for me (a vegan). and the smell of stinking cheese made it an unpleasant experience for me.

          there are others such as Loving Hut, Cafe Gratitude, Herbivore, and many other truly compassionate eateries worth of our dollars.

          in peace,
          nancy

          --- On Mon, 8/30/10, Greg Smith <gsmith59@...> wrote:

          From: Greg Smith <gsmith59@...>
          Subject: Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant
          To: SFVeg@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Monday, August 30, 2010, 9:52 PM

           

          It is for these reasons you state that I have never been there in the first
          place.

          I don't want to support a restaurant which glorifies the consumption of animal
          products as necessary for a good meal, be they from abused or from dead
          animals.

          When I transitioned from omnivore to a vegan diet the first thing I quit was
          dairy, and the second thing I quit was eggs. Only then did I say "what the
          heck" and went all the way to vegan.

          What might have made some sense 150 years ago in the days of small time Farmer
          MacDonald makes no ethical sense in the current era of cruel, mechanistic
          agribusiness.

          Greg

          -----Original Message-----

          >I was just at Green's two Sundays ago, because I had tickets to a piano
          >concert in the Cowell Theater that is two steps away from Green's. I'm a
          >vegan. 99% of the menu was full of eggs and dairy, particularly cheese.
          >
          > After seeing the two documentaries from Tribe of Heart, Peaceable
          >Kingdom and Peaceable Kingdom, the Journey Home, I see the egg and dairy
          >industry as being as cruel as the meat industry. Eggs and dairy both
          >involve
          >inhumane conditions and death. Living newborn male chicks are tossed
          >away
          >in heaps like garbage on egg farms. Battery cages are torture chambers.
          >
          >"Spent" hens are killed. Cows are kept pregnant all the time, suffer
          >from
          >mammary infections, are pumped full of drugs and can't move, because they
          >are tethered to the milk machines for life; their male offspring are
          >wrenched
          >from them at birth and become veal, sent to slaughter after a short life
          >of immobility.
          >
          > I am as repulsed at seeing "vegetarian" food as I am at a steakhouse.
          >
          >I realize I cannot go back to Green's again.
          >
          > Sincerely, Bonnie Knight, San Francisco


        • Adrian Maestas
          I ve tried those kinds of recipes, and really, they fell way short when you use tofu or tofutti instead of butter and cheese. I ve tried doing it with a blend
          Message 4 of 25 , Sep 1, 2010
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            I've tried those kinds of recipes, and really, they fell way short when you use tofu or tofutti instead of butter and cheese. I've tried doing it with a blend of oil and tofu, soy creamer and tofu, stuff like that, and the souffle falls flat. I was vegan for several years, and these types of vegan pastry dishes just suck. I don't really drink milk, but I do eat cheese. Especially Gruyere, Fontina and a nice sharp chedder. Herbed goat cheese is also one of my favorites to enjoy with a glass of wine.

            Thanks for the recipes though!

            --- On Wed, 9/1/10, wordybirdy05-home@... <wordybirdy05-home@...> wrote:

            From: wordybirdy05-home@... <wordybirdy05-home@...>
            Subject: Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant
            To: SFVeg@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Wednesday, September 1, 2010, 1:52 AM

             

            adrian,
            in case you are curious, there are recipes for vegan soufflés:
            http://www.veganrepresent.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13552
            http://www.food.com/recipe/vegan-sweet-potato-souffle-196714
            http://www.theppk.com/recipes/dbrecipes/index.php?RecipeID=183

            worth a try. i know cheese may be addicting, but apart from the environmental devestations of raising the cattle for milk (we won't go to the subject of puss, blood and horomones that is also in that milk you drink), dairy is not good for your body..

            if you are already doing other things to lighten environmental impact..kudos to you.

            peace, nancy

            --- On Tue, 8/31/10, Adrian Maestas <giantsizeflower@...> wrote:

            From: Adrian Maestas <giantsizeflower@...>
            Subject: Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant
            To: SFVeg@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Tuesday, August 31, 2010, 10:22 AM

             

            Well I stopped driving years ago, ride my bike everywhere.
            Rode to Santa Cruz and back a few weeks ago, thinking about riding up to Mendocino over the 3 day weekend.

            But mostly postulating, that cheese to me is more important than many other terrible things we are facing these days. I'll give up many things before I give up cheese.

            --- On Tue, 8/31/10, philip gelb <phil@...> wrote:

            From: philip gelb <phil@...>
            Subject: Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant
            To: SFVeg@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Tuesday, August 31, 2010, 9:14 AM

             

            are you going to give these things up or just postulating? curious.


            phil


            On Aug 31, 2010, at 8:23 AM, Adrian Maestas wrote:


            I was vegan for a few years back in the mid 90's, but I like cheese and puff pastry.
            I know the animals are treated badly, but there are so many things in the world I will give up first before cheese. Like driving. And using paper products. patronizing companies that dump waste into the sea and freshwater rivers. Stuff like that. 

            I'll give all that up before cheese. And pastries. that egg replacer stuff doesn't make the patsry puff up enough. I've tried all the egg substitutes for baking, and it just is not the same. creamers and the like are easy to replace now with a soy based one, but until they figure out how to make a souffle without eggs.....

            My $.02


            --- On Mon, 8/30/10, Mitch Cohen <redbeerd@...> wrote:

            From: Mitch Cohen <redbeerd@...>
            Subject: RE: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant
            To: sfveg@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Monday, August 30, 2010, 11:36 PM

             

            there are omnivores who are in the front lines fighting against factory-farming. their reasons & ultimate goals are clearly different than ours. however, there are more potential anti-factory-farming omnivores than there are vegans. so, if one's short-term goals include drastically reducing factory-farming, i suggest we consider the anti-factory-farming "sustainable-farming" omnivore movement, and its leading, "showcase" restaurants (chez panisse, greens, gather, encuentro) as allies in the fight against factory-farming.


            if enough consciousness & awareness can be raised to get more omnivores to consider avoiding factory-farmed products, then omnivores will have to make plant-based food a huger percentage of their diet (since there simply is NOT enough non-factory-farmed animal-based "food" available to be a big portion of their diet, and it's much more expensive).

            a message telling folks anything short of 100% vegan just turns off too many people. let others tell them to transition to non-factory-farmed "food". once omnivores are willing to make changes and listen, hopefully they'll be more willing to hear our message


            To: SFVeg@yahoogroups.com
            From: gsmith59@...
            Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 21:52:05 -0700
            Subject: Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant

             
            It is for these reasons you state that I have never been there in the first
            place.

            I don't want to support a restaurant which glorifies the consumption of animal
            products as necessary for a good meal, be they from abused or from dead
            animals.

            When I transitioned from omnivore to a vegan diet the first thing I quit was
            dairy, and the second thing I quit was eggs. Only then did I say "what the
            heck" and went all the way to vegan.

            What might have made some sense 150 years ago in the days of small time Farmer
            MacDonald makes no ethical sense in the current era of cruel, mechanistic
            agribusiness.

            Greg

            -----Original Message-----

            >I was just at Green's two Sundays ago, because I had tickets to a piano 
            >concert in the Cowell Theater that is two steps away from Green's. I'm a 
            >vegan. 99% of the menu was full of eggs and dairy, particularly cheese.
            > 
            > After seeing the two documentaries from Tribe of Heart, Peaceable 
            >Kingdom and Peaceable Kingdom, the Journey Home, I see the egg and dairy 
            >industry as being as cruel as the meat industry. Eggs and dairy both
            >involve 
            >inhumane conditions and death. Living newborn male chicks are tossed
            >away 
            >in heaps like garbage on egg farms. Battery cages are torture chambers.
            > 
            >"Spent" hens are killed. Cows are kept pregnant all the time, suffer
            >from 
            >mammary infections, are pumped full of drugs and can't move, because they 
            >are tethered to the milk machines for life; their male offspring are
            >wrenched 
            >from them at birth and become veal, sent to slaughter after a short life 
            >of immobility. 
            > 
            > I am as repulsed at seeing "vegetarian" food as I am at a steakhouse.
            > 
            >I realize I cannot go back to Green's again.
            > 
            > Sincerely, Bonnie Knight, San Francisco







          • Adrian Maestas
            Yeah, I mostly go for the organic and local cheese places, like the place up by Bodega Bay, fantastic! Eggs I get at the farmers market most of the time. I do
            Message 5 of 25 , Sep 1, 2010
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              Yeah, I mostly go for the organic and local cheese places, like the place up by Bodega Bay, fantastic!
              Eggs I get at the farmers market most of the time.

              I do what I can to support good folks who are doin their best to make a difference.

              --- On Tue, 8/31/10, Mitch Cohen <redbeerd@...> wrote:

              From: Mitch Cohen <redbeerd@...>
              Subject: RE: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant / cheese & eggs & pet food
              To: sfveg@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Tuesday, August 31, 2010, 1:18 PM

               

              Adrian: factory farms pollute the sea & waterways, in addition to harming animals. do you at least seek out non-factory-farmed animal products, and support the better farmers who care about these things?

              btw: the same point can be made to guardians of companion animals.

              my $.02


              To: SFVeg@yahoogroups.com
              From: phil@...
              Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 09:14:00 -0700
              Subject: Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant

               
              are you going to give these things up or just postulating? curious.

              phil


              On Aug 31, 2010, at 8:23 AM, Adrian Maestas wrote:


              I was vegan for a few years back in the mid 90's, but I like cheese and puff pastry.
              I know the animals are treated badly, but there are so many things in the world I will give up first before cheese. Like driving. And using paper products. patronizing companies that dump waste into the sea and freshwater rivers. Stuff like that. 

              I'll give all that up before cheese. And pastries. that egg replacer stuff doesn't make the patsry puff up enough. I've tried all the egg substitutes for baking, and it just is not the same. creamers and the like are easy to replace now with a soy based one, but until they figure out how to make a souffle without eggs.....

              My $.02


              --- On Mon, 8/30/10, Mitch Cohen <redbeerd@...> wrote:

              From: Mitch Cohen <redbeerd@...>
              Subject: RE: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant
              To: sfveg@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Monday, August 30, 2010, 11:36 PM

               
              there are omnivores who are in the front lines fighting against factory-farming. their reasons & ultimate goals are clearly different than ours. however, there are more potential anti-factory-farming omnivores than there are vegans. so, if one's short-term goals include drastically reducing factory-farming, i suggest we consider the anti-factory-farming "sustainable-farming" omnivore movement, and its leading, "showcase" restaurants (chez panisse, greens, gather, encuentro) as allies in the fight against factory-farming.

              if enough consciousness & awareness can be raised to get more omnivores to consider avoiding factory-farmed products, then omnivores will have to make plant-based food a huger percentage of their diet (since there simply is NOT enough non-factory-farmed animal-based "food" available to be a big portion of their diet, and it's much more expensive).

              a message telling folks anything short of 100% vegan just turns off too many people. let others tell them to transition to non-factory-farmed "food". once omnivores are willing to make changes and listen, hopefully they'll be more willing to hear our message


              To: SFVeg@yahoogroups.com
              From: gsmith59@...
              Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 21:52:05 -0700
              Subject: Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant

               
              It is for these reasons you state that I have never been there in the first
              place.

              I don't want to support a restaurant which glorifies the consumption of animal
              products as necessary for a good meal, be they from abused or from dead
              animals.

              When I transitioned from omnivore to a vegan diet the first thing I quit was
              dairy, and the second thing I quit was eggs. Only then did I say "what the
              heck" and went all the way to vegan.

              What might have made some sense 150 years ago in the days of small time Farmer
              MacDonald makes no ethical sense in the current era of cruel, mechanistic
              agribusiness.

              Greg

              -----Original Message-----

              >I was just at Green's two Sundays ago, because I had tickets to a piano 
              >concert in the Cowell Theater that is two steps away from Green's. I'm a 
              >vegan. 99% of the menu was full of eggs and dairy, particularly cheese.
              > 
              > After seeing the two documentaries from Tribe of Heart, Peaceable 
              >Kingdom and Peaceable Kingdom, the Journey Home, I see the egg and dairy 
              >industry as being as cruel as the meat industry. Eggs and dairy both
              >involve 
              >inhumane conditions and death. Living newborn male chicks are tossed
              >away 
              >in heaps like garbage on egg farms. Battery cages are torture chambers.
              > 
              >"Spent" hens are killed. Cows are kept pregnant all the time, suffer
              >from 
              >mammary infections, are pumped full of drugs and can't move, because they 
              >are tethered to the milk machines for life; their male offspring are
              >wrenched 
              >from them at birth and become veal, sent to slaughter after a short life 
              >of immobility. 
              > 
              > I am as repulsed at seeing "vegetarian" food as I am at a steakhouse.
              > 
              >I realize I cannot go back to Green's again.
              > 
              > Sincerely, Bonnie Knight, San Francisco







            • turtlespace1
              Nancy, I so agree with you about winning people over to veganism with AMAZING VEGAN COOKING ! Isn t that the way to a man s (or a woman s) heart?!?! We had a
              Message 6 of 25 , Sep 1, 2010
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                Nancy, I so agree with you about winning people over to veganism with AMAZING VEGAN COOKING ! Isn't that the way to a man's (or a woman's) heart?!?! We had a birthday party at our house this year, with mostly non-veg people in attendance; I made homemade vegan pizza with Daiya cheese, and I just served it up like no big deal. But you would not believe all the people who were doing back flips (not literally!) over it. One person said, "WOW! If I knew vegan food could taste this good, I would have gone vegan already!" And the funny thing is, nobody was even ASKING him to go vegan. :)

                Nancy, yeah, I went a little overboard on that "analysis," thanks for reading and responding; it's something I hadn't thought about in as much detail before. Okay, that was yesterday. You want to hear something funny? Guess what arrived in my Inbox TODAY ... it was the Vegan Outreach newsletter with a link to an article about "Number of Animals Killed to Produce One Million Calories in Eight Food Categories" ... the categories being chicken, eggs, beef, pork, milk, fruits, vegetables, and grains. Is that crazzzzzy or what? This is exactly what I was wondering about and thinking about so hard yesterday; then all of a sudden, POOF! Here's the data, with scientific studies and charts and stuff.

                http://www.animalvisuals.org/data/1mc/

                The article basically says that if you stop eating chicken and eggs, you'll reduce suffering and death MORE than if you stop eating other kinds of animals. So ... I think the article really follows along with my line of reasoning from yesterday. The idea is that if somebody is sincere about wanting to reducing suffering but *still wants to consume animal products*, it would be best for them to replace their current consumption with beef products, even if it's factory-farmed beef. The point is that you'll only be putting 1 animal through a life of misery instead of 200. And if it happens to be pasture-raised cows that you're killing for the food (not beef cows raised on feed lots), then you're putting 1 animal through a mostly good life except for castration, branding, transport, slaughter, etc .... in comparison to 200 animals such as most pigs and chickens that do suffer miserably every single day of their life.

                (As you'll see from the chart, the acquisition of milk from dairy cows results in far fewer deaths than the other animal products, but the chart doesn't display the suffering. Also, they don't include veal cows in their count. So it's kind of hard to say where dairy fits into the picture.)

                One thing missing from that article and the chart: they don't include aquatic animals. I wish they did, because geez ... think about all the fish, mammals, crustaceans, reptiles, and more killed during the "harvest" of aquatic life from the oceans. :(

                Anyhow, check out the article if you get a chance. I can't believe this popped up after I was thinking so hard about it yesterday!

                Take care,
                Rachel D.
                San Francisco, CA

                P.S. One more thing, it has been brought to my attention that I probably meant sadist, rather than masochist, in my earlier comment about slaveowners ... duh! Living in San Francisco, I should know how to keep all those terms straight. :)
              • Adrian Maestas
                Wow, thanks Rachel! Like I said, I was vegan for a few years, just didn t like the food that much, craved my comfort foods. Good discussion! ... From:
                Message 7 of 25 , Sep 1, 2010
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                  Wow, thanks Rachel!

                  Like I said, I was vegan for a few years, just didn't like the food that much, craved my comfort foods.

                  Good discussion!

                  --- On Tue, 8/31/10, turtlespace1 <rad97aggie@...> wrote:

                  From: turtlespace1 <rad97aggie@...>
                  Subject: Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant
                  To: SFVeg@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Tuesday, August 31, 2010, 12:07 PM

                   

                  I really appreciate Adrian's honest opinion; it's not one you often hear on veg message boards.

                  I respect people who openly acknowledge the suffering caused by their choices, but who decide that it's "worth it" to get whatever taste, convenience, nutrition, etc, that they get from those choices. At least these people are being up-front and honest.

                  As an aside (and not directed at anyone here; I'm referring to a view I often see expressed in other places) ... what really annoys me is people who say that eating dairy and egg is OK because they are PRETENDING that animals don't suffer for the dairy and eggs. Like they think they are making a compassionate choice by eating dairy and eggs. Of course we all know that it's not a compassionate choice to consume the dairy and eggs readily available at any fast food restaurant or grocery store (the dairy and eggs most people are eating). (I make this distinction, rather than making a blanket statement, because I know that it's possible to keep chicken hens as pets and eat the unfertilized eggs without causing any harm; even the chickens like to eat their own unfertilized eggs; but most people don't have access to eggs from this source. Also, you could make butter and cheese from your wife's breast milk without causing any harm to anyone, but not many people have access to that either! LOL!)

                  Basically, I respect someone like Adrian because he/she is owning up to truth and taking responsibility for it.

                  Of course, Adrian, there are a lot of us who do our best on all fronts, in terms of trying to protect animals and the environment ... we try to MINIMIZE all sort of things ... driving, flying (flying is worse than driving!!!), use of disposables, buying products from sweatshops, supporting companies that pollute rivers, using toxic cleaning products in the home, etc etc etc, AND ... well, for me, going vegan is a big part of that philosophy of trying to minimize our environmental footprint as well as the suffering we cause in this world.

                  I must admit, I've never been a picky eater, so it's really quite easy for me to go without this or that non-vegan thing such as a puffy pastry or a cheesy omelet. For me, it's easy to just eat something vegan instead. I love my vegan food, and yes, I would also the love the taste of non-vegan food (I used to eat it and enjoy it all the time, of course; I'm sure it still tastes the same!). But for me, it's not like the non-vegan food is so tasty that I need to insist on eating it, at the expense of the animals who would be suffering to make sure I can have it. Definitely not. I don't care if it's chocolate eclairs or puffy pastries ... to me, it's not worth it.

                  But I know, a lot of people are trained to be foodies and to demand certain flavors; otherwise, they consider that they are being deprived of something good in life. The way I see it, people like Adrian (and honest meat eaters, the ones who aren't putting on blinders) have a different value system than I do. When people openly acknowledge how bad things are for animals, but they truly believe "it's worth it" .... well, there's nothing I can think of to argue with that. They've looked at the facts squarely and made their decision based on their own value system. It's just that their value system is different from mine.

                  The thing I don't respect is when people hide from the truth, which is something Adrian is obviously not doing.

                  My 2 cents for the collection hat. :)
                  -Rachel D.
                  San Francisco, CA

                  --- In SFVeg@yahoogroups.com, philip gelb <phil@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > are you going to give these things up or just postulating? curious.
                  >
                  > phil
                  >
                  > philip gelb
                  > phil@...
                  > http://philipgelb.com
                  > http://philipgelb.blogspot.com/
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > On Aug 31, 2010, at 8:23 AM, Adrian Maestas wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  > > I was vegan for a few years back in the mid 90's, but I like cheese
                  > > and puff pastry.
                  > > I know the animals are treated badly, but there are so many things
                  > > in the world I will give up first before cheese. Like driving. And
                  > > using paper products. patronizing companies that dump waste into the
                  > > sea and freshwater rivers. Stuff like that.
                  > >
                  > > I'll give all that up before cheese. And pastries. that egg replacer
                  > > stuff doesn't make the patsry puff up enough. I've tried all the egg
                  > > substitutes for baking, and it just is not the same. creamers and
                  > > the like are easy to replace now with a soy based one, but until
                  > > they figure out how to make a souffle without eggs.....
                  > >
                  > > My $.02
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- On Mon, 8/30/10, Mitch Cohen <redbeerd@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > From: Mitch Cohen <redbeerd@...>
                  > > Subject: RE: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant
                  > > To: sfveg@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Date: Monday, August 30, 2010, 11:36 PM
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > there are omnivores who are in the front lines fighting against
                  > > factory-farming. their reasons & ultimate goals are clearly
                  > > different than ours. however, there are more potential anti-factory-
                  > > farming omnivores than there are vegans. so, if one's short-term
                  > > goals include drastically reducing factory-farming, i suggest we
                  > > consider the anti-factory-farming "sustainable-farming" omnivore
                  > > movement, and its leading, "showcase" restaurants (chez panisse,
                  > > greens, gather, encuentro) as allies in the fight against factory-
                  > > farming.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > if enough consciousness & awareness can be raised to get more
                  > > omnivores to consider avoiding factory-farmed products, then
                  > > omnivores will have to make plant-based food a huger percentage of
                  > > their diet (since there simply is NOT enough non-factory-farmed
                  > > animal-based "food" available to be a big portion of their diet, and
                  > > it's much more expensive).
                  > >
                  > > a message telling folks anything short of 100% vegan just turns off
                  > > too many people. let others tell them to transition to non-factory-
                  > > farmed "food". once omnivores are willing to make changes and
                  > > listen, hopefully they'll be more willing to hear our message
                  > >
                  > > To: SFVeg@yahoogroups.com
                  > > From: gsmith59@...
                  > > Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 21:52:05 -0700
                  > > Subject: Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > It is for these reasons you state that I have never been there in
                  > > the first
                  > > place.
                  > >
                  > > I don't want to support a restaurant which glorifies the consumption
                  > > of animal
                  > > products as necessary for a good meal, be they from abused or from
                  > > dead
                  > > animals.
                  > >
                  > > When I transitioned from omnivore to a vegan diet the first thing I
                  > > quit was
                  > > dairy, and the second thing I quit was eggs. Only then did I say
                  > > "what the
                  > > heck" and went all the way to vegan.
                  > >
                  > > What might have made some sense 150 years ago in the days of small
                  > > time Farmer
                  > > MacDonald makes no ethical sense in the current era of cruel,
                  > > mechanistic
                  > > agribusiness.
                  > >
                  > > Greg
                  > >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > >
                  > > >I was just at Green's two Sundays ago, because I had tickets to a
                  > > piano
                  > > >concert in the Cowell Theater that is two steps away from Green's.
                  > > I'm a
                  > > >vegan. 99% of the menu was full of eggs and dairy, particularly
                  > > cheese.
                  > > >
                  > > > After seeing the two documentaries from Tribe of Heart, Peaceable
                  > > >Kingdom and Peaceable Kingdom, the Journey Home, I see the egg and
                  > > dairy
                  > > >industry as being as cruel as the meat industry. Eggs and dairy both
                  > > >involve
                  > > >inhumane conditions and death. Living newborn male chicks are tossed
                  > > >away
                  > > >in heaps like garbage on egg farms. Battery cages are torture
                  > > chambers.
                  > > >
                  > > >"Spent" hens are killed. Cows are kept pregnant all the time, suffer
                  > > >from
                  > > >mammary infections, are pumped full of drugs and can't move,
                  > > because they
                  > > >are tethered to the milk machines for life; their male offspring are
                  > > >wrenched
                  > > >from them at birth and become veal, sent to slaughter after a short
                  > > life
                  > > >of immobility.
                  > > >
                  > > > I am as repulsed at seeing "vegetarian" food as I am at a
                  > > steakhouse.
                  > > >
                  > > >I realize I cannot go back to Green's again.
                  > > >
                  > > > Sincerely, Bonnie Knight, San Francisco
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >


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