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Greens Restaurant

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  • DJ Brook
    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/08/27/FDML1F1G4P.DTL
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 30, 2010
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    • Jeff Walsh
      The popularity of Greens is always elusive to me. Going there as a vegan is a bizarre experience where, in a vegetarian restaurant, I ve been told the only
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 30, 2010
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        The popularity of Greens is always elusive to me. Going there as a vegan is a bizarre experience where, in a vegetarian restaurant, I've been told the only vegan dessert on the menu is sorbet, which is the vegan dessert at every other non-veg restaurant. Why Greens is ever listed above Millennium makes no sense to me. People must really like bridge silhouettes.


      • philip gelb
        This is an over rated restaurant that now lives on its accomplishments of the past. Beautiful view and decent service, great wine list are the positive aspects
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 30, 2010
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          This is an over rated restaurant that now lives on its accomplishments of the past. 
          Beautiful view and decent service, great wine list are the positive aspects of Greens. Very odd that a vegetarian restaurant would have such an adamant anti-vegan attitude and menu.

          For high end vegetarian and vegan cuisine, the bay area has far better options than Greens!

          phil


          On Aug 30, 2010, at 7:50 AM, Jeff Walsh wrote:

          The popularity of Greens is always elusive to me. Going there as a vegan is a bizarre experience where, in a vegetarian restaurant, I've been told the only vegan dessert on the menu is sorbet, which is the vegan dessert at every other non-veg restaurant. Why Greens is ever listed above Millennium makes no sense to me. People must really like bridge silhouettes.




        • Adrian Maestas
          It is still a good place to eat, good food, atmosphere. It doesn t suck and is a good place to take folks who are not veggie. I don t think they ever
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 30, 2010
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            It is still a good place to eat, good food, atmosphere.
            It doesn't suck and is a good place to take folks who are not veggie.
            I don't think they ever proclaimed to be vegan friendly, so those with the veganitis should not be offended by having high expectations of vegan options.

            --- On Mon, 8/30/10, philip gelb <phil@...> wrote:

            From: philip gelb <phil@...>
            Subject: Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant
            To: SFVeg@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Monday, August 30, 2010, 9:52 AM

             

            This is an over rated restaurant that now lives on its accomplishments of the past. 

            Beautiful view and decent service, great wine list are the positive aspects of Greens. Very odd that a vegetarian restaurant would have such an adamant anti-vegan attitude and menu.

            For high end vegetarian and vegan cuisine, the bay area has far better options than Greens!

            phil


            On Aug 30, 2010, at 7:50 AM, Jeff Walsh wrote:

            The popularity of Greens is always elusive to me. Going there as a vegan is a bizarre experience where, in a vegetarian restaurant, I've been told the only vegan dessert on the menu is sorbet, which is the vegan dessert at every other non-veg restaurant. Why Greens is ever listed above Millennium makes no sense to me. People must really like bridge silhouettes.





          • Peter Gilder
            Can t agree more re negative views of Greens. What I don t understand is how a restaurant, with a Buddhist point of view, can tolerate the extensive use of
            Message 5 of 25 , Aug 30, 2010
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              Can't agree more re negative views of Greens.
              What I don't understand is how a restaurant, with a Buddhist point of view, can tolerate the extensive use
              of eggs and dairy, considering the vast amount of animal suffering the dairy industry entails.


              Peter R. Gilder
              Arts and Designs of Japan
              P.O.Box 22075
              SF CA 94122
              (415)759-6233



            • Adrian Maestas
              Yeah but it tastes sooooo good! ... From: Peter Gilder Subject: Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant To: SFVeg@yahoogroups.com Date:
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 30, 2010
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                Yeah but it tastes sooooo good!

                --- On Mon, 8/30/10, Peter Gilder <gilder@...> wrote:

                From: Peter Gilder <gilder@...>
                Subject: Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant
                To: SFVeg@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Monday, August 30, 2010, 11:31 AM

                 

                Can't agree more re negative views of Greens.

                What I don't understand is how a restaurant, with a Buddhist point of view, can tolerate the extensive use
                of eggs and dairy, considering the vast amount of animal suffering the dairy industry entails.


                Peter R. Gilder
                Arts and Designs of Japan
                P.O.Box 22075
                SF CA 94122
                (415)759-6233




              • Bonbonsf@aol.com
                I was just at Green s two Sundays ago, because I had tickets to a piano concert in the Cowell Theater that is two steps away from Green s. I m a vegan. 99%
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 30, 2010
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                        I was just at Green's two Sundays ago, because I had tickets to a piano concert in the Cowell Theater that is two steps away from Green's.  I'm a vegan.  99% of the menu was full of eggs and dairy, particularly cheese.
                   
                        After seeing the two documentaries from Tribe of Heart, Peaceable Kingdom and Peaceable Kingdom, the Journey Home, I see the egg and dairy industry as being as cruel as the meat industry.  Eggs and dairy both involve inhumane conditions and death.  Living newborn male chicks are tossed away in heaps like garbage on egg farms.  Battery cages are torture chambers.  "Spent" hens are killed.  Cows are kept pregnant all the time, suffer from mammary infections, are pumped full of drugs and can't move, because they are tethered to the milk machines for life; their male offspring are wrenched from them at birth and become veal, sent to slaughter after a short life of immobility. 
                   
                      I am as repulsed at seeing "vegetarian" food as I am at a steakhouse.  I realize I cannot go back to Green's again.
                   
                      Sincerely, Bonnie Knight, San Francisco
                • Greg Smith
                  It is for these reasons you state that I have never been there in the first place. I don t want to support a restaurant which glorifies the consumption of
                  Message 8 of 25 , Aug 30, 2010
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                    It is for these reasons you state that I have never been there in the first
                    place.

                    I don't want to support a restaurant which glorifies the consumption of animal
                    products as necessary for a good meal, be they from abused or from dead
                    animals.

                    When I transitioned from omnivore to a vegan diet the first thing I quit was
                    dairy, and the second thing I quit was eggs. Only then did I say "what the
                    heck" and went all the way to vegan.

                    What might have made some sense 150 years ago in the days of small time Farmer
                    MacDonald makes no ethical sense in the current era of cruel, mechanistic
                    agribusiness.

                    Greg

                    -----Original Message-----

                    >I was just at Green's two Sundays ago, because I had tickets to a piano
                    >concert in the Cowell Theater that is two steps away from Green's. I'm a
                    >vegan. 99% of the menu was full of eggs and dairy, particularly cheese.
                    >
                    > After seeing the two documentaries from Tribe of Heart, Peaceable
                    >Kingdom and Peaceable Kingdom, the Journey Home, I see the egg and dairy
                    >industry as being as cruel as the meat industry. Eggs and dairy both
                    >involve
                    >inhumane conditions and death. Living newborn male chicks are tossed
                    >away
                    >in heaps like garbage on egg farms. Battery cages are torture chambers.
                    >
                    >"Spent" hens are killed. Cows are kept pregnant all the time, suffer
                    >from
                    >mammary infections, are pumped full of drugs and can't move, because they
                    >are tethered to the milk machines for life; their male offspring are
                    >wrenched
                    >from them at birth and become veal, sent to slaughter after a short life
                    >of immobility.
                    >
                    > I am as repulsed at seeing "vegetarian" food as I am at a steakhouse.
                    >
                    >I realize I cannot go back to Green's again.
                    >
                    > Sincerely, Bonnie Knight, San Francisco
                  • Mitch Cohen
                    there are omnivores who are in the front lines fighting against factory-farming. their reasons & ultimate goals are clearly different than ours. however, there
                    Message 9 of 25 , Aug 30, 2010
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                      there are omnivores who are in the front lines fighting against factory-farming. their reasons & ultimate goals are clearly different than ours. however, there are more potential anti-factory-farming omnivores than there are vegans. so, if one's short-term goals include drastically reducing factory-farming, i suggest we consider the anti-factory-farming "sustainable-farming" omnivore movement, and its leading, "showcase" restaurants (chez panisse, greens, gather, encuentro) as allies in the fight against factory-farming.

                      if enough consciousness & awareness can be raised to get more omnivores to consider avoiding factory-farmed products, then omnivores will have to make plant-based food a huger percentage of their diet (since there simply is NOT enough non-factory-farmed animal-based "food" available to be a big portion of their diet, and it's much more expensive).

                      a message telling folks anything short of 100% vegan just turns off too many people. let others tell them to transition to non-factory-farmed "food". once omnivores are willing to make changes and listen, hopefully they'll be more willing to hear our message


                      To: SFVeg@yahoogroups.com
                      From: gsmith59@...
                      Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 21:52:05 -0700
                      Subject: Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant

                       
                      It is for these reasons you state that I have never been there in the first
                      place.

                      I don't want to support a restaurant which glorifies the consumption of animal
                      products as necessary for a good meal, be they from abused or from dead
                      animals.

                      When I transitioned from omnivore to a vegan diet the first thing I quit was
                      dairy, and the second thing I quit was eggs. Only then did I say "what the
                      heck" and went all the way to vegan.

                      What might have made some sense 150 years ago in the days of small time Farmer
                      MacDonald makes no ethical sense in the current era of cruel, mechanistic
                      agribusiness.

                      Greg

                      -----Original Message-----

                      >I was just at Green's two Sundays ago, because I had tickets to a piano
                      >concert in the Cowell Theater that is two steps away from Green's. I'm a
                      >vegan. 99% of the menu was full of eggs and dairy, particularly cheese.
                      >
                      > After seeing the two documentaries from Tribe of Heart, Peaceable
                      >Kingdom and Peaceable Kingdom, the Journey Home, I see the egg and dairy
                      >industry as being as cruel as the meat industry. Eggs and dairy both
                      >involve
                      >inhumane conditions and death. Living newborn male chicks are tossed
                      >away
                      >in heaps like garbage on egg farms. Battery cages are torture chambers.
                      >
                      >"Spent" hens are killed. Cows are kept pregnant all the time, suffer
                      >from
                      >mammary infections, are pumped full of drugs and can't move, because they
                      >are tethered to the milk machines for life; their male offspring are
                      >wrenched
                      >from them at birth and become veal, sent to slaughter after a short life
                      >of immobility.
                      >
                      > I am as repulsed at seeing "vegetarian" food as I am at a steakhouse.
                      >
                      >I realize I cannot go back to Green's again.
                      >
                      > Sincerely, Bonnie Knight, San Francisco


                    • wordybirdy05-home@yahoo.com
                      i understand the step by step approach of weaning people off first from factory farming then to veganism. that is good if you want to learn to play the
                      Message 10 of 25 , Aug 31, 2010
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                        i understand the "step by step" approach of weaning people off first from factory farming then to veganism. that is good if you want to learn to play the piano.

                        However, meat eating in my book is considered a crime against other beings. so asking people to eat only free range meat to start with is a bit like asking a pedophile/ rapist to only rape women (leave the kids alone), then eventually wean off raping women.

                        does that make sense?

                        to me no.

                        stop killing means stop killing. dairy/eggs is part of the killing chain. so they are implicated too.

                        i stopped going to Greens years ago because i could hardly find anything on the menu for me (a vegan). and the smell of stinking cheese made it an unpleasant experience for me.

                        there are others such as Loving Hut, Cafe Gratitude, Herbivore, and many other truly compassionate eateries worth of our dollars.

                        in peace,
                        nancy

                        --- On Mon, 8/30/10, Greg Smith <gsmith59@...> wrote:

                        From: Greg Smith <gsmith59@...>
                        Subject: Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant
                        To: SFVeg@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Monday, August 30, 2010, 9:52 PM

                         

                        It is for these reasons you state that I have never been there in the first
                        place.

                        I don't want to support a restaurant which glorifies the consumption of animal
                        products as necessary for a good meal, be they from abused or from dead
                        animals.

                        When I transitioned from omnivore to a vegan diet the first thing I quit was
                        dairy, and the second thing I quit was eggs. Only then did I say "what the
                        heck" and went all the way to vegan.

                        What might have made some sense 150 years ago in the days of small time Farmer
                        MacDonald makes no ethical sense in the current era of cruel, mechanistic
                        agribusiness.

                        Greg

                        -----Original Message-----

                        >I was just at Green's two Sundays ago, because I had tickets to a piano
                        >concert in the Cowell Theater that is two steps away from Green's. I'm a
                        >vegan. 99% of the menu was full of eggs and dairy, particularly cheese.
                        >
                        > After seeing the two documentaries from Tribe of Heart, Peaceable
                        >Kingdom and Peaceable Kingdom, the Journey Home, I see the egg and dairy
                        >industry as being as cruel as the meat industry. Eggs and dairy both
                        >involve
                        >inhumane conditions and death. Living newborn male chicks are tossed
                        >away
                        >in heaps like garbage on egg farms. Battery cages are torture chambers.
                        >
                        >"Spent" hens are killed. Cows are kept pregnant all the time, suffer
                        >from
                        >mammary infections, are pumped full of drugs and can't move, because they
                        >are tethered to the milk machines for life; their male offspring are
                        >wrenched
                        >from them at birth and become veal, sent to slaughter after a short life
                        >of immobility.
                        >
                        > I am as repulsed at seeing "vegetarian" food as I am at a steakhouse.
                        >
                        >I realize I cannot go back to Green's again.
                        >
                        > Sincerely, Bonnie Knight, San Francisco

                      • Stardust Darkmatterji
                        Hear Hear!
                        Message 11 of 25 , Aug 31, 2010
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                          Hear Hear!

                          At 11:36 PM 8/30/2010, Mitch Cohen wrote:
                           

                          there are omnivores who are in the front lines fighting against factory-farming. their reasons & ultimate goals are clearly different than ours. however, there are more potential anti-factory-farming omnivores than there are vegans. so, if one's short-term goals include drastically reducing factory-farming, i suggest we consider the anti-factory-farming "sustainable-farming" omnivore movement, and its leading, "showcase" restaurants (chez panisse, greens, gather, encuentro) as allies in the fight against factory-farming.

                          if enough consciousness & awareness can be raised to get more omnivores to consider avoiding factory-farmed products, then omnivores will have to make plant-based food a huger percentage of their diet (since there simply is NOT enough non-factory-farmed animal-based "food" available to be a big portion of their diet, and it's much more expensive).

                          a message telling folks anything short of 100% vegan just turns off too many people. let others tell them to transition to non-factory-farmed "food". once omnivores are willing to make changes and listen, hopefully they'll be more willing to hear our message


                          To: SFVeg@yahoogroups.com
                          From: gsmith59@...
                          Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 21:52:05 -0700
                          Subject: Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant

                           
                          It is for these reasons you state that I have never been there in the first
                          place.

                          I don't want to support a restaurant which glorifies the consumption of animal
                          products as necessary for a good meal, be they from abused or from dead
                          animals.

                          When I transitioned from omnivore to a vegan diet the first thing I quit was
                          dairy, and the second thing I quit was eggs. Only then did I say "what the
                          heck" and went all the way to vegan.

                          What might have made some sense 150 years ago in the days of small time Farmer
                          MacDonald makes no ethical sense in the current era of cruel, mechanistic
                          agribusiness.

                          Greg

                          -----Original Message-----

                          >I was just at Green's two Sundays ago, because I had tickets to a piano
                          >concert in the Cowell Theater that is two steps away from Green's. I'm a
                          >vegan. 99% of the menu was full of eggs and dairy, particularly cheese.
                          >
                          > After seeing the two documentaries from Tribe of Heart, Peaceable
                          >Kingdom and Peaceable Kingdom, the Journey Home, I see the egg and dairy
                          >industry as being as cruel as the meat industry. Eggs and dairy both
                          >involve
                          >inhumane conditions and death. Living newborn male chicks are tossed
                          >away
                          >in heaps like garbage on egg farms. Battery cages are torture chambers.
                          >
                          >"Spent" hens are killed. Cows are kept pregnant all the time, suffer
                          >from
                          >mammary infections, are pumped full of drugs and can't move, because they
                          >are tethered to the milk machines for life; their male offspring are
                          >wrenched
                          >from them at birth and become veal, sent to slaughter after a short life
                          >of immobility.
                          >
                          > I am as repulsed at seeing "vegetarian" food as I am at a steakhouse.
                          >
                          >I realize I cannot go back to Green's again.
                          >
                          > Sincerely, Bonnie Knight, San Francisco


                        • Adrian Maestas
                          I was vegan for a few years back in the mid 90 s, but I like cheese and puff pastry. I know the animals are treated badly, but there are so many things in the
                          Message 12 of 25 , Aug 31, 2010
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                            I was vegan for a few years back in the mid 90's, but I like cheese and puff pastry.
                            I know the animals are treated badly, but there are so many things in the world I will give up first before cheese. Like driving. And using paper products. patronizing companies that dump waste into the sea and freshwater rivers. Stuff like that.

                            I'll give all that up before cheese. And pastries. that egg replacer stuff doesn't make the patsry puff up enough. I've tried all the egg substitutes for baking, and it just is not the same. creamers and the like are easy to replace now with a soy based one, but until they figure out how to make a souffle without eggs.....

                            My $.02


                            --- On Mon, 8/30/10, Mitch Cohen <redbeerd@...> wrote:

                            From: Mitch Cohen <redbeerd@...>
                            Subject: RE: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant
                            To: sfveg@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Monday, August 30, 2010, 11:36 PM

                             

                            there are omnivores who are in the front lines fighting against factory-farming. their reasons & ultimate goals are clearly different than ours. however, there are more potential anti-factory-farming omnivores than there are vegans. so, if one's short-term goals include drastically reducing factory-farming, i suggest we consider the anti-factory-farming "sustainable-farming" omnivore movement, and its leading, "showcase" restaurants (chez panisse, greens, gather, encuentro) as allies in the fight against factory-farming.


                            if enough consciousness & awareness can be raised to get more omnivores to consider avoiding factory-farmed products, then omnivores will have to make plant-based food a huger percentage of their diet (since there simply is NOT enough non-factory-farmed animal-based "food" available to be a big portion of their diet, and it's much more expensive).

                            a message telling folks anything short of 100% vegan just turns off too many people. let others tell them to transition to non-factory-farmed "food". once omnivores are willing to make changes and listen, hopefully they'll be more willing to hear our message


                            To: SFVeg@yahoogroups.com
                            From: gsmith59@...
                            Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 21:52:05 -0700
                            Subject: Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant

                             
                            It is for these reasons you state that I have never been there in the first
                            place.

                            I don't want to support a restaurant which glorifies the consumption of animal
                            products as necessary for a good meal, be they from abused or from dead
                            animals.

                            When I transitioned from omnivore to a vegan diet the first thing I quit was
                            dairy, and the second thing I quit was eggs. Only then did I say "what the
                            heck" and went all the way to vegan.

                            What might have made some sense 150 years ago in the days of small time Farmer
                            MacDonald makes no ethical sense in the current era of cruel, mechanistic
                            agribusiness.

                            Greg

                            -----Original Message-----

                            >I was just at Green's two Sundays ago, because I had tickets to a piano
                            >concert in the Cowell Theater that is two steps away from Green's. I'm a
                            >vegan. 99% of the menu was full of eggs and dairy, particularly cheese.
                            >
                            > After seeing the two documentaries from Tribe of Heart, Peaceable
                            >Kingdom and Peaceable Kingdom, the Journey Home, I see the egg and dairy
                            >industry as being as cruel as the meat industry. Eggs and dairy both
                            >involve
                            >inhumane conditions and death. Living newborn male chicks are tossed
                            >away
                            >in heaps like garbage on egg farms. Battery cages are torture chambers.
                            >
                            >"Spent" hens are killed. Cows are kept pregnant all the time, suffer
                            >from
                            >mammary infections, are pumped full of drugs and can't move, because they
                            >are tethered to the milk machines for life; their male offspring are
                            >wrenched
                            >from them at birth and become veal, sent to slaughter after a short life
                            >of immobility.
                            >
                            > I am as repulsed at seeing "vegetarian" food as I am at a steakhouse.
                            >
                            >I realize I cannot go back to Green's again.
                            >
                            > Sincerely, Bonnie Knight, San Francisco



                          • philip gelb
                            are you going to give these things up or just postulating? curious. phil philip gelb phil@philipgelb.com http://philipgelb.com http://philipgelb.blogspot.com/
                            Message 13 of 25 , Aug 31, 2010
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                              are you going to give these things up or just postulating? curious.

                              phil


                              On Aug 31, 2010, at 8:23 AM, Adrian Maestas wrote:


                              I was vegan for a few years back in the mid 90's, but I like cheese and puff pastry.
                              I know the animals are treated badly, but there are so many things in the world I will give up first before cheese. Like driving. And using paper products. patronizing companies that dump waste into the sea and freshwater rivers. Stuff like that. 

                              I'll give all that up before cheese. And pastries. that egg replacer stuff doesn't make the patsry puff up enough. I've tried all the egg substitutes for baking, and it just is not the same. creamers and the like are easy to replace now with a soy based one, but until they figure out how to make a souffle without eggs.....

                              My $.02


                              --- On Mon, 8/30/10, Mitch Cohen <redbeerd@...> wrote:

                              From: Mitch Cohen <redbeerd@...>
                              Subject: RE: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant
                              To: sfveg@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Monday, August 30, 2010, 11:36 PM

                               

                              there are omnivores who are in the front lines fighting against factory-farming. their reasons & ultimate goals are clearly different than ours. however, there are more potential anti-factory-farming omnivores than there are vegans. so, if one's short-term goals include drastically reducing factory-farming, i suggest we consider the anti-factory-farming "sustainable-farming" omnivore movement, and its leading, "showcase" restaurants (chez panisse, greens, gather, encuentro) as allies in the fight against factory-farming.


                              if enough consciousness & awareness can be raised to get more omnivores to consider avoiding factory-farmed products, then omnivores will have to make plant-based food a huger percentage of their diet (since there simply is NOT enough non-factory-farmed animal-based "food" available to be a big portion of their diet, and it's much more expensive).

                              a message telling folks anything short of 100% vegan just turns off too many people. let others tell them to transition to non-factory-farmed "food". once omnivores are willing to make changes and listen, hopefully they'll be more willing to hear our message


                              To: SFVeg@yahoogroups.com
                              From: gsmith59@...
                              Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 21:52:05 -0700
                              Subject: Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant

                               
                              It is for these reasons you state that I have never been there in the first
                              place.

                              I don't want to support a restaurant which glorifies the consumption of animal
                              products as necessary for a good meal, be they from abused or from dead
                              animals.

                              When I transitioned from omnivore to a vegan diet the first thing I quit was
                              dairy, and the second thing I quit was eggs. Only then did I say "what the
                              heck" and went all the way to vegan.

                              What might have made some sense 150 years ago in the days of small time Farmer
                              MacDonald makes no ethical sense in the current era of cruel, mechanistic
                              agribusiness.

                              Greg

                              -----Original Message-----

                              >I was just at Green's two Sundays ago, because I had tickets to a piano 
                              >concert in the Cowell Theater that is two steps away from Green's. I'm a 
                              >vegan. 99% of the menu was full of eggs and dairy, particularly cheese.
                              > 
                              > After seeing the two documentaries from Tribe of Heart, Peaceable 
                              >Kingdom and Peaceable Kingdom, the Journey Home, I see the egg and dairy 
                              >industry as being as cruel as the meat industry. Eggs and dairy both
                              >involve 
                              >inhumane conditions and death. Living newborn male chicks are tossed
                              >away 
                              >in heaps like garbage on egg farms. Battery cages are torture chambers.
                              > 
                              >"Spent" hens are killed. Cows are kept pregnant all the time, suffer
                              >from 
                              >mammary infections, are pumped full of drugs and can't move, because they 
                              >are tethered to the milk machines for life; their male offspring are
                              >wrenched 
                              >from them at birth and become veal, sent to slaughter after a short life 
                              >of immobility. 
                              > 
                              > I am as repulsed at seeing "vegetarian" food as I am at a steakhouse.
                              > 
                              >I realize I cannot go back to Green's again.
                              > 
                              > Sincerely, Bonnie Knight, San Francisco





                            • Mitch Cohen
                              piano-teaching is a bad comparison if you want to help as many animals as possible, one must reach omnivores who are turned off by the vegans who preach
                              Message 14 of 25 , Aug 31, 2010
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                                piano-teaching is a bad comparison

                                if you want to help as many animals as possible, one must reach omnivores who are turned off by the vegans who preach "nothing other than 100%-plant-based matters". if a vegan doesn't want to make that point (that "some" animal-eating is ok), then quietly allow others to make the point; and stand ready to educate people further after they've become open to change.

                                once people are willing to open themselves to making very EXPENSIVE changes (yes, grass-fed costs much more than subsidized factory-farmed), they'll be open to hearing about more changes, such as:
                                - tell government to end subsidies & water-giveaways to factory farming (that'll be a MAJOR deterence to meat-eaters!!)
                                - increase the proportion of vegetables in your diet, since they are much more affordable, healthy & eco-friendly than meat
                                - turn to broccoli & collards for calcium, rather than milk
                                - eat more grains, nuts & beans for protein, rather than eggs & meat
                                - keep increasing the proportion of plant-based foods in your diet: above 80%, 90%, 95%, 98%, 99%, ... 



                                To: SFVeg@yahoogroups.com
                                From: wordybirdy05-home@...
                                Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 07:11:06 -0700
                                Subject: Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant

                                 
                                i understand the "step by step" approach of weaning people off first from factory farming then to veganism. that is good if you want to learn to play the piano.

                                However, meat eating in my book is considered a crime against other beings. so asking people to eat only free range meat to start with is a bit like asking a pedophile/ rapist to only rape women (leave the kids alone), then eventually wean off raping women.

                                does that make sense?

                                to me no.

                                stop killing means stop killing. dairy/eggs is part of the killing chain. so they are implicated too.

                                i stopped going to Greens years ago because i could hardly find anything on the menu for me (a vegan). and the smell of stinking cheese made it an unpleasant experience for me.

                                there are others such as Loving Hut, Cafe Gratitude, Herbivore, and many other truly compassionate eateries worth of our dollars.

                                in peace,
                                nancy

                                --- On Mon, 8/30/10, Greg Smith <gsmith59@...> wrote:

                                From: Greg Smith <gsmith59@...>
                                Subject: Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant
                                To: SFVeg@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Monday, August 30, 2010, 9:52 PM

                                 

                                It is for these reasons you state that I have never been there in the first
                                place.

                                I don't want to support a restaurant which glorifies the consumption of animal
                                products as necessary for a good meal, be they from abused or from dead
                                animals.

                                When I transitioned from omnivore to a vegan diet the first thing I quit was
                                dairy, and the second thing I quit was eggs. Only then did I say "what the
                                heck" and went all the way to vegan.

                                What might have made some sense 150 years ago in the days of small time Farmer
                                MacDonald makes no ethical sense in the current era of cruel, mechanistic
                                agribusiness.

                                Greg

                                -----Original Message-----

                                >I was just at Green's two Sundays ago, because I had tickets to a piano
                                >concert in the Cowell Theater that is two steps away from Green's. I'm a
                                >vegan. 99% of the menu was full of eggs and dairy, particularly cheese.
                                >
                                > After seeing the two documentaries from Tribe of Heart, Peaceable
                                >Kingdom and Peaceable Kingdom, the Journey Home, I see the egg and dairy
                                >industry as being as cruel as the meat industry. Eggs and dairy both
                                >involve
                                >inhumane conditions and death. Living newborn male chicks are tossed
                                >away
                                >in heaps like garbage on egg farms. Battery cages are torture chambers.
                                >
                                >"Spent" hens are killed. Cows are kept pregnant all the time, suffer
                                >from
                                >mammary infections, are pumped full of drugs and can't move, because they
                                >are tethered to the milk machines for life; their male offspring are
                                >wrenched
                                >from them at birth and become veal, sent to slaughter after a short life
                                >of immobility.
                                >
                                > I am as repulsed at seeing "vegetarian" food as I am at a steakhouse.
                                >
                                >I realize I cannot go back to Green's again.
                                >
                                > Sincerely, Bonnie Knight, San Francisco


                              • Adrian Maestas
                                Well I stopped driving years ago, ride my bike everywhere. Rode to Santa Cruz and back a few weeks ago, thinking about riding up to Mendocino over the 3 day
                                Message 15 of 25 , Aug 31, 2010
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                                  Well I stopped driving years ago, ride my bike everywhere.
                                  Rode to Santa Cruz and back a few weeks ago, thinking about riding up to Mendocino over the 3 day weekend.

                                  But mostly postulating, that cheese to me is more important than many other terrible things we are facing these days. I'll give up many things before I give up cheese.

                                  --- On Tue, 8/31/10, philip gelb <phil@...> wrote:

                                  From: philip gelb <phil@...>
                                  Subject: Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant
                                  To: SFVeg@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Tuesday, August 31, 2010, 9:14 AM

                                   

                                  are you going to give these things up or just postulating? curious.


                                  phil


                                  On Aug 31, 2010, at 8:23 AM, Adrian Maestas wrote:


                                  I was vegan for a few years back in the mid 90's, but I like cheese and puff pastry.
                                  I know the animals are treated badly, but there are so many things in the world I will give up first before cheese. Like driving. And using paper products. patronizing companies that dump waste into the sea and freshwater rivers. Stuff like that. 

                                  I'll give all that up before cheese. And pastries. that egg replacer stuff doesn't make the patsry puff up enough. I've tried all the egg substitutes for baking, and it just is not the same. creamers and the like are easy to replace now with a soy based one, but until they figure out how to make a souffle without eggs.....

                                  My $.02


                                  --- On Mon, 8/30/10, Mitch Cohen <redbeerd@...> wrote:

                                  From: Mitch Cohen <redbeerd@...>
                                  Subject: RE: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant
                                  To: sfveg@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Monday, August 30, 2010, 11:36 PM

                                   

                                  there are omnivores who are in the front lines fighting against factory-farming. their reasons & ultimate goals are clearly different than ours. however, there are more potential anti-factory-farming omnivores than there are vegans. so, if one's short-term goals include drastically reducing factory-farming, i suggest we consider the anti-factory-farming "sustainable-farming" omnivore movement, and its leading, "showcase" restaurants (chez panisse, greens, gather, encuentro) as allies in the fight against factory-farming.


                                  if enough consciousness & awareness can be raised to get more omnivores to consider avoiding factory-farmed products, then omnivores will have to make plant-based food a huger percentage of their diet (since there simply is NOT enough non-factory-farmed animal-based "food" available to be a big portion of their diet, and it's much more expensive).

                                  a message telling folks anything short of 100% vegan just turns off too many people. let others tell them to transition to non-factory-farmed "food". once omnivores are willing to make changes and listen, hopefully they'll be more willing to hear our message


                                  To: SFVeg@yahoogroups.com
                                  From: gsmith59@...
                                  Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 21:52:05 -0700
                                  Subject: Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant

                                   
                                  It is for these reasons you state that I have never been there in the first
                                  place.

                                  I don't want to support a restaurant which glorifies the consumption of animal
                                  products as necessary for a good meal, be they from abused or from dead
                                  animals.

                                  When I transitioned from omnivore to a vegan diet the first thing I quit was
                                  dairy, and the second thing I quit was eggs. Only then did I say "what the
                                  heck" and went all the way to vegan.

                                  What might have made some sense 150 years ago in the days of small time Farmer
                                  MacDonald makes no ethical sense in the current era of cruel, mechanistic
                                  agribusiness.

                                  Greg

                                  -----Original Message-----

                                  >I was just at Green's two Sundays ago, because I had tickets to a piano 
                                  >concert in the Cowell Theater that is two steps away from Green's. I'm a 
                                  >vegan. 99% of the menu was full of eggs and dairy, particularly cheese.
                                  > 
                                  > After seeing the two documentaries from Tribe of Heart, Peaceable 
                                  >Kingdom and Peaceable Kingdom, the Journey Home, I see the egg and dairy 
                                  >industry as being as cruel as the meat industry. Eggs and dairy both
                                  >involve 
                                  >inhumane conditions and death. Living newborn male chicks are tossed
                                  >away 
                                  >in heaps like garbage on egg farms. Battery cages are torture chambers.
                                  > 
                                  >"Spent" hens are killed. Cows are kept pregnant all the time, suffer
                                  >from 
                                  >mammary infections, are pumped full of drugs and can't move, because they 
                                  >are tethered to the milk machines for life; their male offspring are
                                  >wrenched 
                                  >from them at birth and become veal, sent to slaughter after a short life 
                                  >of immobility. 
                                  > 
                                  > I am as repulsed at seeing "vegetarian" food as I am at a steakhouse.
                                  > 
                                  >I realize I cannot go back to Green's again.
                                  > 
                                  > Sincerely, Bonnie Knight, San Francisco






                                • turtlespace1
                                  I really appreciate Adrian s honest opinion; it s not one you often hear on veg message boards. I respect people who openly acknowledge the suffering caused by
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Aug 31, 2010
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                                    I really appreciate Adrian's honest opinion; it's not one you often hear on veg message boards.

                                    I respect people who openly acknowledge the suffering caused by their choices, but who decide that it's "worth it" to get whatever taste, convenience, nutrition, etc, that they get from those choices. At least these people are being up-front and honest.

                                    As an aside (and not directed at anyone here; I'm referring to a view I often see expressed in other places) ... what really annoys me is people who say that eating dairy and egg is OK because they are PRETENDING that animals don't suffer for the dairy and eggs. Like they think they are making a compassionate choice by eating dairy and eggs. Of course we all know that it's not a compassionate choice to consume the dairy and eggs readily available at any fast food restaurant or grocery store (the dairy and eggs most people are eating). (I make this distinction, rather than making a blanket statement, because I know that it's possible to keep chicken hens as pets and eat the unfertilized eggs without causing any harm; even the chickens like to eat their own unfertilized eggs; but most people don't have access to eggs from this source. Also, you could make butter and cheese from your wife's breast milk without causing any harm to anyone, but not many people have access to that either! LOL!)

                                    Basically, I respect someone like Adrian because he/she is owning up to truth and taking responsibility for it.

                                    Of course, Adrian, there are a lot of us who do our best on all fronts, in terms of trying to protect animals and the environment ... we try to MINIMIZE all sort of things ... driving, flying (flying is worse than driving!!!), use of disposables, buying products from sweatshops, supporting companies that pollute rivers, using toxic cleaning products in the home, etc etc etc, AND ... well, for me, going vegan is a big part of that philosophy of trying to minimize our environmental footprint as well as the suffering we cause in this world.

                                    I must admit, I've never been a picky eater, so it's really quite easy for me to go without this or that non-vegan thing such as a puffy pastry or a cheesy omelet. For me, it's easy to just eat something vegan instead. I love my vegan food, and yes, I would also the love the taste of non-vegan food (I used to eat it and enjoy it all the time, of course; I'm sure it still tastes the same!). But for me, it's not like the non-vegan food is so tasty that I need to insist on eating it, at the expense of the animals who would be suffering to make sure I can have it. Definitely not. I don't care if it's chocolate eclairs or puffy pastries ... to me, it's not worth it.

                                    But I know, a lot of people are trained to be foodies and to demand certain flavors; otherwise, they consider that they are being deprived of something good in life. The way I see it, people like Adrian (and honest meat eaters, the ones who aren't putting on blinders) have a different value system than I do. When people openly acknowledge how bad things are for animals, but they truly believe "it's worth it" .... well, there's nothing I can think of to argue with that. They've looked at the facts squarely and made their decision based on their own value system. It's just that their value system is different from mine.

                                    The thing I don't respect is when people hide from the truth, which is something Adrian is obviously not doing.

                                    My 2 cents for the collection hat. :)
                                    -Rachel D.
                                    San Francisco, CA


                                    --- In SFVeg@yahoogroups.com, philip gelb <phil@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > are you going to give these things up or just postulating? curious.
                                    >
                                    > phil
                                    >
                                    > philip gelb
                                    > phil@...
                                    > http://philipgelb.com
                                    > http://philipgelb.blogspot.com/
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > On Aug 31, 2010, at 8:23 AM, Adrian Maestas wrote:
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    > > I was vegan for a few years back in the mid 90's, but I like cheese
                                    > > and puff pastry.
                                    > > I know the animals are treated badly, but there are so many things
                                    > > in the world I will give up first before cheese. Like driving. And
                                    > > using paper products. patronizing companies that dump waste into the
                                    > > sea and freshwater rivers. Stuff like that.
                                    > >
                                    > > I'll give all that up before cheese. And pastries. that egg replacer
                                    > > stuff doesn't make the patsry puff up enough. I've tried all the egg
                                    > > substitutes for baking, and it just is not the same. creamers and
                                    > > the like are easy to replace now with a soy based one, but until
                                    > > they figure out how to make a souffle without eggs.....
                                    > >
                                    > > My $.02
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > --- On Mon, 8/30/10, Mitch Cohen <redbeerd@...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > From: Mitch Cohen <redbeerd@...>
                                    > > Subject: RE: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant
                                    > > To: sfveg@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Date: Monday, August 30, 2010, 11:36 PM
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > there are omnivores who are in the front lines fighting against
                                    > > factory-farming. their reasons & ultimate goals are clearly
                                    > > different than ours. however, there are more potential anti-factory-
                                    > > farming omnivores than there are vegans. so, if one's short-term
                                    > > goals include drastically reducing factory-farming, i suggest we
                                    > > consider the anti-factory-farming "sustainable-farming" omnivore
                                    > > movement, and its leading, "showcase" restaurants (chez panisse,
                                    > > greens, gather, encuentro) as allies in the fight against factory-
                                    > > farming.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > if enough consciousness & awareness can be raised to get more
                                    > > omnivores to consider avoiding factory-farmed products, then
                                    > > omnivores will have to make plant-based food a huger percentage of
                                    > > their diet (since there simply is NOT enough non-factory-farmed
                                    > > animal-based "food" available to be a big portion of their diet, and
                                    > > it's much more expensive).
                                    > >
                                    > > a message telling folks anything short of 100% vegan just turns off
                                    > > too many people. let others tell them to transition to non-factory-
                                    > > farmed "food". once omnivores are willing to make changes and
                                    > > listen, hopefully they'll be more willing to hear our message
                                    > >
                                    > > To: SFVeg@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > From: gsmith59@...
                                    > > Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 21:52:05 -0700
                                    > > Subject: Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > It is for these reasons you state that I have never been there in
                                    > > the first
                                    > > place.
                                    > >
                                    > > I don't want to support a restaurant which glorifies the consumption
                                    > > of animal
                                    > > products as necessary for a good meal, be they from abused or from
                                    > > dead
                                    > > animals.
                                    > >
                                    > > When I transitioned from omnivore to a vegan diet the first thing I
                                    > > quit was
                                    > > dairy, and the second thing I quit was eggs. Only then did I say
                                    > > "what the
                                    > > heck" and went all the way to vegan.
                                    > >
                                    > > What might have made some sense 150 years ago in the days of small
                                    > > time Farmer
                                    > > MacDonald makes no ethical sense in the current era of cruel,
                                    > > mechanistic
                                    > > agribusiness.
                                    > >
                                    > > Greg
                                    > >
                                    > > -----Original Message-----
                                    > >
                                    > > >I was just at Green's two Sundays ago, because I had tickets to a
                                    > > piano
                                    > > >concert in the Cowell Theater that is two steps away from Green's.
                                    > > I'm a
                                    > > >vegan. 99% of the menu was full of eggs and dairy, particularly
                                    > > cheese.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > After seeing the two documentaries from Tribe of Heart, Peaceable
                                    > > >Kingdom and Peaceable Kingdom, the Journey Home, I see the egg and
                                    > > dairy
                                    > > >industry as being as cruel as the meat industry. Eggs and dairy both
                                    > > >involve
                                    > > >inhumane conditions and death. Living newborn male chicks are tossed
                                    > > >away
                                    > > >in heaps like garbage on egg farms. Battery cages are torture
                                    > > chambers.
                                    > > >
                                    > > >"Spent" hens are killed. Cows are kept pregnant all the time, suffer
                                    > > >from
                                    > > >mammary infections, are pumped full of drugs and can't move,
                                    > > because they
                                    > > >are tethered to the milk machines for life; their male offspring are
                                    > > >wrenched
                                    > > >from them at birth and become veal, sent to slaughter after a short
                                    > > life
                                    > > >of immobility.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I am as repulsed at seeing "vegetarian" food as I am at a
                                    > > steakhouse.
                                    > > >
                                    > > >I realize I cannot go back to Green's again.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Sincerely, Bonnie Knight, San Francisco
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • Mitch Cohen
                                    Adrian: factory farms pollute the sea & waterways, in addition to harming animals. do you at least seek out non-factory-farmed animal products, and support the
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Aug 31, 2010
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                                      Adrian: factory farms pollute the sea & waterways, in addition to harming animals. do you at least seek out non-factory-farmed animal products, and support the better farmers who care about these things?

                                      btw: the same point can be made to guardians of companion animals.

                                      my $.02


                                      To: SFVeg@yahoogroups.com
                                      From: phil@...
                                      Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 09:14:00 -0700
                                      Subject: Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant

                                       
                                      are you going to give these things up or just postulating? curious.

                                      phil


                                      On Aug 31, 2010, at 8:23 AM, Adrian Maestas wrote:


                                      I was vegan for a few years back in the mid 90's, but I like cheese and puff pastry.
                                      I know the animals are treated badly, but there are so many things in the world I will give up first before cheese. Like driving. And using paper products. patronizing companies that dump waste into the sea and freshwater rivers. Stuff like that. 

                                      I'll give all that up before cheese. And pastries. that egg replacer stuff doesn't make the patsry puff up enough. I've tried all the egg substitutes for baking, and it just is not the same. creamers and the like are easy to replace now with a soy based one, but until they figure out how to make a souffle without eggs.....

                                      My $.02


                                      --- On Mon, 8/30/10, Mitch Cohen <redbeerd@...> wrote:

                                      From: Mitch Cohen <redbeerd@...>
                                      Subject: RE: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant
                                      To: sfveg@yahoogroups.com
                                      Date: Monday, August 30, 2010, 11:36 PM

                                       
                                      there are omnivores who are in the front lines fighting against factory-farming. their reasons & ultimate goals are clearly different than ours. however, there are more potential anti-factory-farming omnivores than there are vegans. so, if one's short-term goals include drastically reducing factory-farming, i suggest we consider the anti-factory-farming "sustainable-farming" omnivore movement, and its leading, "showcase" restaurants (chez panisse, greens, gather, encuentro) as allies in the fight against factory-farming.

                                      if enough consciousness & awareness can be raised to get more omnivores to consider avoiding factory-farmed products, then omnivores will have to make plant-based food a huger percentage of their diet (since there simply is NOT enough non-factory-farmed animal-based "food" available to be a big portion of their diet, and it's much more expensive).

                                      a message telling folks anything short of 100% vegan just turns off too many people. let others tell them to transition to non-factory-farmed "food". once omnivores are willing to make changes and listen, hopefully they'll be more willing to hear our message


                                      To: SFVeg@yahoogroups.com
                                      From: gsmith59@...
                                      Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 21:52:05 -0700
                                      Subject: Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant

                                       
                                      It is for these reasons you state that I have never been there in the first
                                      place.

                                      I don't want to support a restaurant which glorifies the consumption of animal
                                      products as necessary for a good meal, be they from abused or from dead
                                      animals.

                                      When I transitioned from omnivore to a vegan diet the first thing I quit was
                                      dairy, and the second thing I quit was eggs. Only then did I say "what the
                                      heck" and went all the way to vegan.

                                      What might have made some sense 150 years ago in the days of small time Farmer
                                      MacDonald makes no ethical sense in the current era of cruel, mechanistic
                                      agribusiness.

                                      Greg

                                      -----Original Message-----

                                      >I was just at Green's two Sundays ago, because I had tickets to a piano 
                                      >concert in the Cowell Theater that is two steps away from Green's. I'm a 
                                      >vegan. 99% of the menu was full of eggs and dairy, particularly cheese.
                                      > 
                                      > After seeing the two documentaries from Tribe of Heart, Peaceable 
                                      >Kingdom and Peaceable Kingdom, the Journey Home, I see the egg and dairy 
                                      >industry as being as cruel as the meat industry. Eggs and dairy both
                                      >involve 
                                      >inhumane conditions and death. Living newborn male chicks are tossed
                                      >away 
                                      >in heaps like garbage on egg farms. Battery cages are torture chambers.
                                      > 
                                      >"Spent" hens are killed. Cows are kept pregnant all the time, suffer
                                      >from 
                                      >mammary infections, are pumped full of drugs and can't move, because they 
                                      >are tethered to the milk machines for life; their male offspring are
                                      >wrenched 
                                      >from them at birth and become veal, sent to slaughter after a short life 
                                      >of immobility. 
                                      > 
                                      > I am as repulsed at seeing "vegetarian" food as I am at a steakhouse.
                                      > 
                                      >I realize I cannot go back to Green's again.
                                      > 
                                      > Sincerely, Bonnie Knight, San Francisco






                                    • turtlespace1
                                      Hey Nancy, You know what .... if the pedophile/rapist were to actually start having FEWER VICTIMS, then yes, I think it would be an improvement! Just ask all
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Aug 31, 2010
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                                        Hey Nancy,

                                        You know what .... if the pedophile/rapist were to actually start having FEWER VICTIMS, then yes, I think it would be an improvement! Just ask all the kids and women who were spared. But: if the pedophile/rapist simply adds more women victims to make up for all the kid victims that he is now abstaining from hurting (like if someone were to start eating fish instead of beef or chicken); well, then of course, there's no improvement. In fact, it might be worse; the pedophile/rapist's actual count of victims might INCREASE, now that the guy (or gal, OK) feels no guilt for hurting children, suddenly he thinks he can rape as many women as he wants! That would be like someone increasing their consumption of fish, now that they are no longer eating beef. If the person switches from all beef to all fish for their meals, the "kill count" for the year might go from maybe just 2, up to 100s. :(

                                        Now, I'm not so sure about this, just thinking out loud, but: when you talk about the gravity of the crime, does it matter to think about portion size? If you eat one Cornish hen or one guinea pig or one catfish for 1 meal, you took an entire life of an animal. If you have one piece of cheese, this was made with a tiny amount of a cow's milk output (and suffering) for one day. To cause the same amount of suffering as the person eating the guinea pig, you'd have to eat thousands of slices of cheese!

                                        Does something similar also make sense, in terms of comparing the killing of large animals to small animals? When someone kills a cow, the carcass can feed hundreds of people, not sure about the numbers, but I know it can feed a lot. So ... let's say you'd have to eat 100 servings of cow carcass to add up to the same amount of suffering that you caused by eating one catfish. Somehow it seems to me, the crime of eating 1/100th of a cow cannot be equivalent to the crime of eating an entire animal. Or is it? What do think? What if Person A had a banquet and killed one cow to serve 100 people, and the next day, Person B had a banquet and killed 100 guinea pigs to serve another group of 100 people. Are the crimes of Person A and Person B equivalent? Or should Person A get charged with 1 count of murder, and Person B get charged with 100 counts of murder? What about the people who dined at the banquets? How should they be charged?

                                        AS A SIDE NOTE: Bear in mind, because right now it's LEGAL to kill all these animals for food, I personally don't believe it's a "crime." However, I'm continuing with this kind of terminology, to continue with the terms that Nancy set out. For me, the reality is that until our society changes its laws, people who choose to eat meat are not murderers. They are simply operating within the norms of accepted society, and really, we can't blame anyone for that. I would also say that we can't blame all the people who were slaveholders in the South, such as George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and Robert E. Lee. Yes, if you kept 1000 slaves (or even 1 slave!) in your backyard today, you'd be considered a masochist and a psychopath. But slavery was legal back then. No matter how wrong we all know it is today, it doesn't mean that the people doing it back then were psychopaths. When horrible things are accepted as part of society, it seems to me ... we as society bear the responsibility, more so than the individuals who are simply operating within the rules of society.

                                        Now ... back to this topic of whether making changes to the types and amount of killing makes any difference.

                                        I was thinking about how most beef cows generally get to spend a couple years living out on the pasture and raising their calves out there (the main problems endured by beef cattle are castration, branding, the time spent in huge feed lots for "finishing," and slaughter, all of which are no walk in the park, of course). Contrast this to how most pigs in the U.S. today are raised in concrete pens and never get to see sunlight, not until they get packed into the truck for slaughter. They suffer the same things as beef cows, but on top of that, they spend their whole lives stuck in these concrete pens, with no chance to raise their young naturally, no opportunity for playing outside, nothing. :( Because of this, it seems to me, the crime of eating pork should be much more than the crime of eating beef. Another consideration is that the usual pig or hog goes through all of that suffering (much more than the beef cow) and feeds much fewer people.

                                        So .... if people could be sentenced for the crime of killing and eating animals, don't you think the penalty for eating a pork chop should be like 100 times more than the penalty for eating a piece of beef steak?

                                        Anyway, Nancy, I'm vegan, too, but it seems to me that you were trying to say that it makes no difference for people to "cut down on" their consumption of animal products, or to switch to animal products that equate to less suffering per serving of "food." Of course, I have to think about this more, but so far that doesn't ring true for me. I'm thinking it does make a difference, and it does help animals, for people to "cut back" on their consumption of animal products. Or even, for them to switch to eating animal products that equate to less suffering per serving.

                                        -Rachel D.
                                        San Francisco, CA


                                        --- In SFVeg@yahoogroups.com, wordybirdy05-home@... wrote:
                                        >
                                        > i understand the "step by step" approach of weaning people off first from factory farming then to veganism. that is good if you want to learn to play the piano.
                                        >
                                        > However, meat eating in my book is considered a crime against other beings. so asking people to eat only free range meat to start with is a bit like asking a pedophile/ rapist to only rape women (leave the kids alone), then eventually wean off raping women.
                                        >
                                        > does that make sense?
                                        >
                                        > to me no.
                                        >
                                        > stop killing means stop killing. dairy/eggs is part of the killing chain. so they are implicated too.
                                        >
                                        > i stopped going to Greens years ago because i could hardly find anything on the menu for me (a vegan). and the smell of stinking cheese made it an unpleasant experience for me.
                                        >
                                        > there are others such as Loving Hut, Cafe Gratitude, Herbivore, and many other truly compassionate eateries worth of our dollars.
                                        >
                                        > in peace,
                                        > nancy
                                        >
                                      • wordybirdy05-home@yahoo.com
                                        adrian, in case you are curious, there are recipes for vegan soufflés: http://www.veganrepresent.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13552
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Sep 1, 2010
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          adrian,
                                          in case you are curious, there are recipes for vegan soufflés:
                                          http://www.veganrepresent.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13552
                                          http://www.food.com/recipe/vegan-sweet-potato-souffle-196714
                                          http://www.theppk.com/recipes/dbrecipes/index.php?RecipeID=183

                                          worth a try. i know cheese may be addicting, but apart from the environmental devestations of raising the cattle for milk (we won't go to the subject of puss, blood and horomones that is also in that milk you drink), dairy is not good for your body..

                                          if you are already doing other things to lighten environmental impact..kudos to you.

                                          peace, nancy

                                          --- On Tue, 8/31/10, Adrian Maestas <giantsizeflower@...> wrote:

                                          From: Adrian Maestas <giantsizeflower@...>
                                          Subject: Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant
                                          To: SFVeg@yahoogroups.com
                                          Date: Tuesday, August 31, 2010, 10:22 AM

                                           

                                          Well I stopped driving years ago, ride my bike everywhere.
                                          Rode to Santa Cruz and back a few weeks ago, thinking about riding up to Mendocino over the 3 day weekend.

                                          But mostly postulating, that cheese to me is more important than many other terrible things we are facing these days. I'll give up many things before I give up cheese.

                                          --- On Tue, 8/31/10, philip gelb <phil@...> wrote:

                                          From: philip gelb <phil@...>
                                          Subject: Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant
                                          To: SFVeg@yahoogroups.com
                                          Date: Tuesday, August 31, 2010, 9:14 AM

                                           

                                          are you going to give these things up or just postulating? curious.


                                          phil


                                          On Aug 31, 2010, at 8:23 AM, Adrian Maestas wrote:


                                          I was vegan for a few years back in the mid 90's, but I like cheese and puff pastry.
                                          I know the animals are treated badly, but there are so many things in the world I will give up first before cheese. Like driving. And using paper products. patronizing companies that dump waste into the sea and freshwater rivers. Stuff like that. 

                                          I'll give all that up before cheese. And pastries. that egg replacer stuff doesn't make the patsry puff up enough. I've tried all the egg substitutes for baking, and it just is not the same. creamers and the like are easy to replace now with a soy based one, but until they figure out how to make a souffle without eggs.....

                                          My $.02


                                          --- On Mon, 8/30/10, Mitch Cohen <redbeerd@...> wrote:

                                          From: Mitch Cohen <redbeerd@...>
                                          Subject: RE: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant
                                          To: sfveg@yahoogroups.com
                                          Date: Monday, August 30, 2010, 11:36 PM

                                           

                                          there are omnivores who are in the front lines fighting against factory-farming. their reasons & ultimate goals are clearly different than ours. however, there are more potential anti-factory-farming omnivores than there are vegans. so, if one's short-term goals include drastically reducing factory-farming, i suggest we consider the anti-factory-farming "sustainable-farming" omnivore movement, and its leading, "showcase" restaurants (chez panisse, greens, gather, encuentro) as allies in the fight against factory-farming.


                                          if enough consciousness & awareness can be raised to get more omnivores to consider avoiding factory-farmed products, then omnivores will have to make plant-based food a huger percentage of their diet (since there simply is NOT enough non-factory-farmed animal-based "food" available to be a big portion of their diet, and it's much more expensive).

                                          a message telling folks anything short of 100% vegan just turns off too many people. let others tell them to transition to non-factory-farmed "food". once omnivores are willing to make changes and listen, hopefully they'll be more willing to hear our message


                                          To: SFVeg@yahoogroups.com
                                          From: gsmith59@...
                                          Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 21:52:05 -0700
                                          Subject: Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant

                                           
                                          It is for these reasons you state that I have never been there in the first
                                          place.

                                          I don't want to support a restaurant which glorifies the consumption of animal
                                          products as necessary for a good meal, be they from abused or from dead
                                          animals.

                                          When I transitioned from omnivore to a vegan diet the first thing I quit was
                                          dairy, and the second thing I quit was eggs. Only then did I say "what the
                                          heck" and went all the way to vegan.

                                          What might have made some sense 150 years ago in the days of small time Farmer
                                          MacDonald makes no ethical sense in the current era of cruel, mechanistic
                                          agribusiness.

                                          Greg

                                          -----Original Message-----

                                          >I was just at Green's two Sundays ago, because I had tickets to a piano 
                                          >concert in the Cowell Theater that is two steps away from Green's. I'm a 
                                          >vegan. 99% of the menu was full of eggs and dairy, particularly cheese.
                                          > 
                                          > After seeing the two documentaries from Tribe of Heart, Peaceable 
                                          >Kingdom and Peaceable Kingdom, the Journey Home, I see the egg and dairy 
                                          >industry as being as cruel as the meat industry. Eggs and dairy both
                                          >involve 
                                          >inhumane conditions and death. Living newborn male chicks are tossed
                                          >away 
                                          >in heaps like garbage on egg farms. Battery cages are torture chambers.
                                          > 
                                          >"Spent" hens are killed. Cows are kept pregnant all the time, suffer
                                          >from 
                                          >mammary infections, are pumped full of drugs and can't move, because they 
                                          >are tethered to the milk machines for life; their male offspring are
                                          >wrenched 
                                          >from them at birth and become veal, sent to slaughter after a short life 
                                          >of immobility. 
                                          > 
                                          > I am as repulsed at seeing "vegetarian" food as I am at a steakhouse.
                                          > 
                                          >I realize I cannot go back to Green's again.
                                          > 
                                          > Sincerely, Bonnie Knight, San Francisco






                                        • wordybirdy05-home@yahoo.com
                                          after years of waving the flag and telling people about the environmental/health impacts of eat animals, plus raising the ethical issue, i realize that this
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Sep 1, 2010
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            after years of waving the flag and telling people about the environmental/health impacts of eat animals, plus raising the ethical issue, i realize that this works for a very small % of people- those who are already contemplating the issue and thus ready to make the leap.

                                            for most others, my best weapon thus far is vegan cooking...not the slap your vegan burger on the grill and douse some ketchup between buns kinda cooking. but homemade lasagna with pasta made from scratch, risotto cooked to perfection, stuffed squash with quinoa etc etc. the kind of food that unsuspecting carnivores eat and appreciate, THEN find out there was no carcass in that meal. When i tell them this doesn't clog their arteries, zero cholesterol & low calories, then they get really interested (i live in italy and i tell you them italians are REALLY attached to their food).

                                            people wont' change because they are not willing to give up their habits. you give them a wonderful alternative and unless they are seriously hardcore, they will change. it just takes time, patience and a lot of dinner invitations to carnivors.

                                            as for rachel's detailed analysis a rapist/pedophile (thanks by the way for putting so much thought into it...:-) to me personally killing an animal whether a chick or a cow is a crime (thus my metaphore to rapist/pedophile). whether it is permissible by law or not. in my heart which loves all, it is not permissible.
                                            slavery may have been legal, but doenst' make it right, does it? 

                                            the definition of right in my book is simply based on the Golden Rule. if i dont' want to be enslaved, then it's WRONG for me to enslave another.  If i don't want to be killed, then it's wrong for me to kill another. it's as simple as that.  so please, those lawyers out there, no need to tear this one to pieces.

                                            i understand folks out there trying to lessen the killing by promoting grass fed beef i/o factory farm beef..ok, i get it.  but for me personally it's just as wrong to kill a factory raised cow as it is to kill a grass fed cow(definition of wrong see above explanation). so in terms of karmic points one is more or less equal to another (ok, factory farm animals suffer a lot more so it's heavier).  if this works, so be it....nevertheless, killing one life is still a murder- whether you are in iraq (where stoning is permitted for human beings), or in the USA.

                                            thank you for all who have contributed to this conversation...so much more interesting than talking about which football team won...i'm grateful for your time.

                                            peace, nancy

                                            --- On Tue, 8/31/10, Mitch Cohen <redbeerd@...> wrote:

                                            From: Mitch Cohen <redbeerd@...>
                                            Subject: RE: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant / step-by-step
                                            To: sfveg@yahoogroups.com
                                            Date: Tuesday, August 31, 2010, 9:25 AM

                                             

                                            piano-teaching is a bad comparison


                                            if you want to help as many animals as possible, one must reach omnivores who are turned off by the vegans who preach "nothing other than 100%-plant-based matters". if a vegan doesn't want to make that point (that "some" animal-eating is ok), then quietly allow others to make the point; and stand ready to educate people further after they've become open to change.

                                            once people are willing to open themselves to making very EXPENSIVE changes (yes, grass-fed costs much more than subsidized factory-farmed), they'll be open to hearing about more changes, such as:
                                            - tell government to end subsidies & water-giveaways to factory farming (that'll be a MAJOR deterence to meat-eaters!!)
                                            - increase the proportion of vegetables in your diet, since they are much more affordable, healthy & eco-friendly than meat
                                            - turn to broccoli & collards for calcium, rather than milk
                                            - eat more grains, nuts & beans for protein, rather than eggs & meat
                                            - keep increasing the proportion of plant-based foods in your diet: above 80%, 90%, 95%, 98%, 99%, ... 



                                            To: SFVeg@yahoogroups.com
                                            From: wordybirdy05-home@...
                                            Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 07:11:06 -0700
                                            Subject: Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant

                                             
                                            i understand the "step by step" approach of weaning people off first from factory farming then to veganism. that is good if you want to learn to play the piano.

                                            However, meat eating in my book is considered a crime against other beings. so asking people to eat only free range meat to start with is a bit like asking a pedophile/ rapist to only rape women (leave the kids alone), then eventually wean off raping women.

                                            does that make sense?

                                            to me no.

                                            stop killing means stop killing. dairy/eggs is part of the killing chain. so they are implicated too.

                                            i stopped going to Greens years ago because i could hardly find anything on the menu for me (a vegan). and the smell of stinking cheese made it an unpleasant experience for me.

                                            there are others such as Loving Hut, Cafe Gratitude, Herbivore, and many other truly compassionate eateries worth of our dollars.

                                            in peace,
                                            nancy

                                            --- On Mon, 8/30/10, Greg Smith <gsmith59@...> wrote:

                                            From: Greg Smith <gsmith59@...>
                                            Subject: Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant
                                            To: SFVeg@yahoogroups.com
                                            Date: Monday, August 30, 2010, 9:52 PM

                                             

                                            It is for these reasons you state that I have never been there in the first
                                            place.

                                            I don't want to support a restaurant which glorifies the consumption of animal
                                            products as necessary for a good meal, be they from abused or from dead
                                            animals.

                                            When I transitioned from omnivore to a vegan diet the first thing I quit was
                                            dairy, and the second thing I quit was eggs. Only then did I say "what the
                                            heck" and went all the way to vegan.

                                            What might have made some sense 150 years ago in the days of small time Farmer
                                            MacDonald makes no ethical sense in the current era of cruel, mechanistic
                                            agribusiness.

                                            Greg

                                            -----Original Message-----

                                            >I was just at Green's two Sundays ago, because I had tickets to a piano
                                            >concert in the Cowell Theater that is two steps away from Green's. I'm a
                                            >vegan. 99% of the menu was full of eggs and dairy, particularly cheese.
                                            >
                                            > After seeing the two documentaries from Tribe of Heart, Peaceable
                                            >Kingdom and Peaceable Kingdom, the Journey Home, I see the egg and dairy
                                            >industry as being as cruel as the meat industry. Eggs and dairy both
                                            >involve
                                            >inhumane conditions and death. Living newborn male chicks are tossed
                                            >away
                                            >in heaps like garbage on egg farms. Battery cages are torture chambers.
                                            >
                                            >"Spent" hens are killed. Cows are kept pregnant all the time, suffer
                                            >from
                                            >mammary infections, are pumped full of drugs and can't move, because they
                                            >are tethered to the milk machines for life; their male offspring are
                                            >wrenched
                                            >from them at birth and become veal, sent to slaughter after a short life
                                            >of immobility.
                                            >
                                            > I am as repulsed at seeing "vegetarian" food as I am at a steakhouse.
                                            >
                                            >I realize I cannot go back to Green's again.
                                            >
                                            > Sincerely, Bonnie Knight, San Francisco


                                          • wordybirdy05-home@yahoo.com
                                            with all due respect Mitch, people who are tired of paying more for grass fed beef will simply return to eating fty farmed beef, because they don t have the
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Sep 1, 2010
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              with all due respect Mitch,
                                              people who are tired of paying more for grass fed beef will simply return to eating fty farmed beef, because they don't have the eco/moral dilmma that we vegans do. this will not effect long term and permenant change.

                                              the only way to change behavior is to offer a completely different pardigm, not simply give them lesser guilt alternative.

                                              peace,
                                              nancy

                                              --- On Tue, 8/31/10, Mitch Cohen <redbeerd@...> wrote:

                                              From: Mitch Cohen <redbeerd@...>
                                              Subject: RE: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant / step-by-step
                                              To: sfveg@yahoogroups.com
                                              Date: Tuesday, August 31, 2010, 9:25 AM

                                               

                                              piano-teaching is a bad comparison


                                              if you want to help as many animals as possible, one must reach omnivores who are turned off by the vegans who preach "nothing other than 100%-plant-based matters". if a vegan doesn't want to make that point (that "some" animal-eating is ok), then quietly allow others to make the point; and stand ready to educate people further after they've become open to change.

                                              once people are willing to open themselves to making very EXPENSIVE changes (yes, grass-fed costs much more than subsidized factory-farmed), they'll be open to hearing about more changes, such as:
                                              - tell government to end subsidies & water-giveaways to factory farming (that'll be a MAJOR deterence to meat-eaters!!)
                                              - increase the proportion of vegetables in your diet, since they are much more affordable, healthy & eco-friendly than meat
                                              - turn to broccoli & collards for calcium, rather than milk
                                              - eat more grains, nuts & beans for protein, rather than eggs & meat
                                              - keep increasing the proportion of plant-based foods in your diet: above 80%, 90%, 95%, 98%, 99%, ... 



                                              To: SFVeg@yahoogroups.com
                                              From: wordybirdy05-home@...
                                              Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 07:11:06 -0700
                                              Subject: Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant

                                               
                                              i understand the "step by step" approach of weaning people off first from factory farming then to veganism. that is good if you want to learn to play the piano.

                                              However, meat eating in my book is considered a crime against other beings. so asking people to eat only free range meat to start with is a bit like asking a pedophile/ rapist to only rape women (leave the kids alone), then eventually wean off raping women.

                                              does that make sense?

                                              to me no.

                                              stop killing means stop killing. dairy/eggs is part of the killing chain. so they are implicated too.

                                              i stopped going to Greens years ago because i could hardly find anything on the menu for me (a vegan). and the smell of stinking cheese made it an unpleasant experience for me.

                                              there are others such as Loving Hut, Cafe Gratitude, Herbivore, and many other truly compassionate eateries worth of our dollars.

                                              in peace,
                                              nancy

                                              --- On Mon, 8/30/10, Greg Smith <gsmith59@...> wrote:

                                              From: Greg Smith <gsmith59@...>
                                              Subject: Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant
                                              To: SFVeg@yahoogroups.com
                                              Date: Monday, August 30, 2010, 9:52 PM

                                               

                                              It is for these reasons you state that I have never been there in the first
                                              place.

                                              I don't want to support a restaurant which glorifies the consumption of animal
                                              products as necessary for a good meal, be they from abused or from dead
                                              animals.

                                              When I transitioned from omnivore to a vegan diet the first thing I quit was
                                              dairy, and the second thing I quit was eggs. Only then did I say "what the
                                              heck" and went all the way to vegan.

                                              What might have made some sense 150 years ago in the days of small time Farmer
                                              MacDonald makes no ethical sense in the current era of cruel, mechanistic
                                              agribusiness.

                                              Greg

                                              -----Original Message-----

                                              >I was just at Green's two Sundays ago, because I had tickets to a piano
                                              >concert in the Cowell Theater that is two steps away from Green's. I'm a
                                              >vegan. 99% of the menu was full of eggs and dairy, particularly cheese.
                                              >
                                              > After seeing the two documentaries from Tribe of Heart, Peaceable
                                              >Kingdom and Peaceable Kingdom, the Journey Home, I see the egg and dairy
                                              >industry as being as cruel as the meat industry. Eggs and dairy both
                                              >involve
                                              >inhumane conditions and death. Living newborn male chicks are tossed
                                              >away
                                              >in heaps like garbage on egg farms. Battery cages are torture chambers.
                                              >
                                              >"Spent" hens are killed. Cows are kept pregnant all the time, suffer
                                              >from
                                              >mammary infections, are pumped full of drugs and can't move, because they
                                              >are tethered to the milk machines for life; their male offspring are
                                              >wrenched
                                              >from them at birth and become veal, sent to slaughter after a short life
                                              >of immobility.
                                              >
                                              > I am as repulsed at seeing "vegetarian" food as I am at a steakhouse.
                                              >
                                              >I realize I cannot go back to Green's again.
                                              >
                                              > Sincerely, Bonnie Knight, San Francisco


                                            • Adrian Maestas
                                              I ve tried those kinds of recipes, and really, they fell way short when you use tofu or tofutti instead of butter and cheese. I ve tried doing it with a blend
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Sep 1, 2010
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                I've tried those kinds of recipes, and really, they fell way short when you use tofu or tofutti instead of butter and cheese. I've tried doing it with a blend of oil and tofu, soy creamer and tofu, stuff like that, and the souffle falls flat. I was vegan for several years, and these types of vegan pastry dishes just suck. I don't really drink milk, but I do eat cheese. Especially Gruyere, Fontina and a nice sharp chedder. Herbed goat cheese is also one of my favorites to enjoy with a glass of wine.

                                                Thanks for the recipes though!

                                                --- On Wed, 9/1/10, wordybirdy05-home@... <wordybirdy05-home@...> wrote:

                                                From: wordybirdy05-home@... <wordybirdy05-home@...>
                                                Subject: Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant
                                                To: SFVeg@yahoogroups.com
                                                Date: Wednesday, September 1, 2010, 1:52 AM

                                                 

                                                adrian,
                                                in case you are curious, there are recipes for vegan soufflés:
                                                http://www.veganrepresent.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13552
                                                http://www.food.com/recipe/vegan-sweet-potato-souffle-196714
                                                http://www.theppk.com/recipes/dbrecipes/index.php?RecipeID=183

                                                worth a try. i know cheese may be addicting, but apart from the environmental devestations of raising the cattle for milk (we won't go to the subject of puss, blood and horomones that is also in that milk you drink), dairy is not good for your body..

                                                if you are already doing other things to lighten environmental impact..kudos to you.

                                                peace, nancy

                                                --- On Tue, 8/31/10, Adrian Maestas <giantsizeflower@...> wrote:

                                                From: Adrian Maestas <giantsizeflower@...>
                                                Subject: Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant
                                                To: SFVeg@yahoogroups.com
                                                Date: Tuesday, August 31, 2010, 10:22 AM

                                                 

                                                Well I stopped driving years ago, ride my bike everywhere.
                                                Rode to Santa Cruz and back a few weeks ago, thinking about riding up to Mendocino over the 3 day weekend.

                                                But mostly postulating, that cheese to me is more important than many other terrible things we are facing these days. I'll give up many things before I give up cheese.

                                                --- On Tue, 8/31/10, philip gelb <phil@...> wrote:

                                                From: philip gelb <phil@...>
                                                Subject: Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant
                                                To: SFVeg@yahoogroups.com
                                                Date: Tuesday, August 31, 2010, 9:14 AM

                                                 

                                                are you going to give these things up or just postulating? curious.


                                                phil


                                                On Aug 31, 2010, at 8:23 AM, Adrian Maestas wrote:


                                                I was vegan for a few years back in the mid 90's, but I like cheese and puff pastry.
                                                I know the animals are treated badly, but there are so many things in the world I will give up first before cheese. Like driving. And using paper products. patronizing companies that dump waste into the sea and freshwater rivers. Stuff like that. 

                                                I'll give all that up before cheese. And pastries. that egg replacer stuff doesn't make the patsry puff up enough. I've tried all the egg substitutes for baking, and it just is not the same. creamers and the like are easy to replace now with a soy based one, but until they figure out how to make a souffle without eggs.....

                                                My $.02


                                                --- On Mon, 8/30/10, Mitch Cohen <redbeerd@...> wrote:

                                                From: Mitch Cohen <redbeerd@...>
                                                Subject: RE: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant
                                                To: sfveg@yahoogroups.com
                                                Date: Monday, August 30, 2010, 11:36 PM

                                                 

                                                there are omnivores who are in the front lines fighting against factory-farming. their reasons & ultimate goals are clearly different than ours. however, there are more potential anti-factory-farming omnivores than there are vegans. so, if one's short-term goals include drastically reducing factory-farming, i suggest we consider the anti-factory-farming "sustainable-farming" omnivore movement, and its leading, "showcase" restaurants (chez panisse, greens, gather, encuentro) as allies in the fight against factory-farming.


                                                if enough consciousness & awareness can be raised to get more omnivores to consider avoiding factory-farmed products, then omnivores will have to make plant-based food a huger percentage of their diet (since there simply is NOT enough non-factory-farmed animal-based "food" available to be a big portion of their diet, and it's much more expensive).

                                                a message telling folks anything short of 100% vegan just turns off too many people. let others tell them to transition to non-factory-farmed "food". once omnivores are willing to make changes and listen, hopefully they'll be more willing to hear our message


                                                To: SFVeg@yahoogroups.com
                                                From: gsmith59@...
                                                Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 21:52:05 -0700
                                                Subject: Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant

                                                 
                                                It is for these reasons you state that I have never been there in the first
                                                place.

                                                I don't want to support a restaurant which glorifies the consumption of animal
                                                products as necessary for a good meal, be they from abused or from dead
                                                animals.

                                                When I transitioned from omnivore to a vegan diet the first thing I quit was
                                                dairy, and the second thing I quit was eggs. Only then did I say "what the
                                                heck" and went all the way to vegan.

                                                What might have made some sense 150 years ago in the days of small time Farmer
                                                MacDonald makes no ethical sense in the current era of cruel, mechanistic
                                                agribusiness.

                                                Greg

                                                -----Original Message-----

                                                >I was just at Green's two Sundays ago, because I had tickets to a piano 
                                                >concert in the Cowell Theater that is two steps away from Green's. I'm a 
                                                >vegan. 99% of the menu was full of eggs and dairy, particularly cheese.
                                                > 
                                                > After seeing the two documentaries from Tribe of Heart, Peaceable 
                                                >Kingdom and Peaceable Kingdom, the Journey Home, I see the egg and dairy 
                                                >industry as being as cruel as the meat industry. Eggs and dairy both
                                                >involve 
                                                >inhumane conditions and death. Living newborn male chicks are tossed
                                                >away 
                                                >in heaps like garbage on egg farms. Battery cages are torture chambers.
                                                > 
                                                >"Spent" hens are killed. Cows are kept pregnant all the time, suffer
                                                >from 
                                                >mammary infections, are pumped full of drugs and can't move, because they 
                                                >are tethered to the milk machines for life; their male offspring are
                                                >wrenched 
                                                >from them at birth and become veal, sent to slaughter after a short life 
                                                >of immobility. 
                                                > 
                                                > I am as repulsed at seeing "vegetarian" food as I am at a steakhouse.
                                                > 
                                                >I realize I cannot go back to Green's again.
                                                > 
                                                > Sincerely, Bonnie Knight, San Francisco







                                              • Adrian Maestas
                                                Yeah, I mostly go for the organic and local cheese places, like the place up by Bodega Bay, fantastic! Eggs I get at the farmers market most of the time. I do
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Sep 1, 2010
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Yeah, I mostly go for the organic and local cheese places, like the place up by Bodega Bay, fantastic!
                                                  Eggs I get at the farmers market most of the time.

                                                  I do what I can to support good folks who are doin their best to make a difference.

                                                  --- On Tue, 8/31/10, Mitch Cohen <redbeerd@...> wrote:

                                                  From: Mitch Cohen <redbeerd@...>
                                                  Subject: RE: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant / cheese & eggs & pet food
                                                  To: sfveg@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Date: Tuesday, August 31, 2010, 1:18 PM

                                                   

                                                  Adrian: factory farms pollute the sea & waterways, in addition to harming animals. do you at least seek out non-factory-farmed animal products, and support the better farmers who care about these things?

                                                  btw: the same point can be made to guardians of companion animals.

                                                  my $.02


                                                  To: SFVeg@yahoogroups.com
                                                  From: phil@...
                                                  Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 09:14:00 -0700
                                                  Subject: Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant

                                                   
                                                  are you going to give these things up or just postulating? curious.

                                                  phil


                                                  On Aug 31, 2010, at 8:23 AM, Adrian Maestas wrote:


                                                  I was vegan for a few years back in the mid 90's, but I like cheese and puff pastry.
                                                  I know the animals are treated badly, but there are so many things in the world I will give up first before cheese. Like driving. And using paper products. patronizing companies that dump waste into the sea and freshwater rivers. Stuff like that. 

                                                  I'll give all that up before cheese. And pastries. that egg replacer stuff doesn't make the patsry puff up enough. I've tried all the egg substitutes for baking, and it just is not the same. creamers and the like are easy to replace now with a soy based one, but until they figure out how to make a souffle without eggs.....

                                                  My $.02


                                                  --- On Mon, 8/30/10, Mitch Cohen <redbeerd@...> wrote:

                                                  From: Mitch Cohen <redbeerd@...>
                                                  Subject: RE: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant
                                                  To: sfveg@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Date: Monday, August 30, 2010, 11:36 PM

                                                   
                                                  there are omnivores who are in the front lines fighting against factory-farming. their reasons & ultimate goals are clearly different than ours. however, there are more potential anti-factory-farming omnivores than there are vegans. so, if one's short-term goals include drastically reducing factory-farming, i suggest we consider the anti-factory-farming "sustainable-farming" omnivore movement, and its leading, "showcase" restaurants (chez panisse, greens, gather, encuentro) as allies in the fight against factory-farming.

                                                  if enough consciousness & awareness can be raised to get more omnivores to consider avoiding factory-farmed products, then omnivores will have to make plant-based food a huger percentage of their diet (since there simply is NOT enough non-factory-farmed animal-based "food" available to be a big portion of their diet, and it's much more expensive).

                                                  a message telling folks anything short of 100% vegan just turns off too many people. let others tell them to transition to non-factory-farmed "food". once omnivores are willing to make changes and listen, hopefully they'll be more willing to hear our message


                                                  To: SFVeg@yahoogroups.com
                                                  From: gsmith59@...
                                                  Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 21:52:05 -0700
                                                  Subject: Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant

                                                   
                                                  It is for these reasons you state that I have never been there in the first
                                                  place.

                                                  I don't want to support a restaurant which glorifies the consumption of animal
                                                  products as necessary for a good meal, be they from abused or from dead
                                                  animals.

                                                  When I transitioned from omnivore to a vegan diet the first thing I quit was
                                                  dairy, and the second thing I quit was eggs. Only then did I say "what the
                                                  heck" and went all the way to vegan.

                                                  What might have made some sense 150 years ago in the days of small time Farmer
                                                  MacDonald makes no ethical sense in the current era of cruel, mechanistic
                                                  agribusiness.

                                                  Greg

                                                  -----Original Message-----

                                                  >I was just at Green's two Sundays ago, because I had tickets to a piano 
                                                  >concert in the Cowell Theater that is two steps away from Green's. I'm a 
                                                  >vegan. 99% of the menu was full of eggs and dairy, particularly cheese.
                                                  > 
                                                  > After seeing the two documentaries from Tribe of Heart, Peaceable 
                                                  >Kingdom and Peaceable Kingdom, the Journey Home, I see the egg and dairy 
                                                  >industry as being as cruel as the meat industry. Eggs and dairy both
                                                  >involve 
                                                  >inhumane conditions and death. Living newborn male chicks are tossed
                                                  >away 
                                                  >in heaps like garbage on egg farms. Battery cages are torture chambers.
                                                  > 
                                                  >"Spent" hens are killed. Cows are kept pregnant all the time, suffer
                                                  >from 
                                                  >mammary infections, are pumped full of drugs and can't move, because they 
                                                  >are tethered to the milk machines for life; their male offspring are
                                                  >wrenched 
                                                  >from them at birth and become veal, sent to slaughter after a short life 
                                                  >of immobility. 
                                                  > 
                                                  > I am as repulsed at seeing "vegetarian" food as I am at a steakhouse.
                                                  > 
                                                  >I realize I cannot go back to Green's again.
                                                  > 
                                                  > Sincerely, Bonnie Knight, San Francisco







                                                • turtlespace1
                                                  Nancy, I so agree with you about winning people over to veganism with AMAZING VEGAN COOKING ! Isn t that the way to a man s (or a woman s) heart?!?! We had a
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Sep 1, 2010
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                                                    Nancy, I so agree with you about winning people over to veganism with AMAZING VEGAN COOKING ! Isn't that the way to a man's (or a woman's) heart?!?! We had a birthday party at our house this year, with mostly non-veg people in attendance; I made homemade vegan pizza with Daiya cheese, and I just served it up like no big deal. But you would not believe all the people who were doing back flips (not literally!) over it. One person said, "WOW! If I knew vegan food could taste this good, I would have gone vegan already!" And the funny thing is, nobody was even ASKING him to go vegan. :)

                                                    Nancy, yeah, I went a little overboard on that "analysis," thanks for reading and responding; it's something I hadn't thought about in as much detail before. Okay, that was yesterday. You want to hear something funny? Guess what arrived in my Inbox TODAY ... it was the Vegan Outreach newsletter with a link to an article about "Number of Animals Killed to Produce One Million Calories in Eight Food Categories" ... the categories being chicken, eggs, beef, pork, milk, fruits, vegetables, and grains. Is that crazzzzzy or what? This is exactly what I was wondering about and thinking about so hard yesterday; then all of a sudden, POOF! Here's the data, with scientific studies and charts and stuff.

                                                    http://www.animalvisuals.org/data/1mc/

                                                    The article basically says that if you stop eating chicken and eggs, you'll reduce suffering and death MORE than if you stop eating other kinds of animals. So ... I think the article really follows along with my line of reasoning from yesterday. The idea is that if somebody is sincere about wanting to reducing suffering but *still wants to consume animal products*, it would be best for them to replace their current consumption with beef products, even if it's factory-farmed beef. The point is that you'll only be putting 1 animal through a life of misery instead of 200. And if it happens to be pasture-raised cows that you're killing for the food (not beef cows raised on feed lots), then you're putting 1 animal through a mostly good life except for castration, branding, transport, slaughter, etc .... in comparison to 200 animals such as most pigs and chickens that do suffer miserably every single day of their life.

                                                    (As you'll see from the chart, the acquisition of milk from dairy cows results in far fewer deaths than the other animal products, but the chart doesn't display the suffering. Also, they don't include veal cows in their count. So it's kind of hard to say where dairy fits into the picture.)

                                                    One thing missing from that article and the chart: they don't include aquatic animals. I wish they did, because geez ... think about all the fish, mammals, crustaceans, reptiles, and more killed during the "harvest" of aquatic life from the oceans. :(

                                                    Anyhow, check out the article if you get a chance. I can't believe this popped up after I was thinking so hard about it yesterday!

                                                    Take care,
                                                    Rachel D.
                                                    San Francisco, CA

                                                    P.S. One more thing, it has been brought to my attention that I probably meant sadist, rather than masochist, in my earlier comment about slaveowners ... duh! Living in San Francisco, I should know how to keep all those terms straight. :)
                                                  • Adrian Maestas
                                                    Wow, thanks Rachel! Like I said, I was vegan for a few years, just didn t like the food that much, craved my comfort foods. Good discussion! ... From:
                                                    Message 25 of 25 , Sep 1, 2010
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                                                      Wow, thanks Rachel!

                                                      Like I said, I was vegan for a few years, just didn't like the food that much, craved my comfort foods.

                                                      Good discussion!

                                                      --- On Tue, 8/31/10, turtlespace1 <rad97aggie@...> wrote:

                                                      From: turtlespace1 <rad97aggie@...>
                                                      Subject: Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant
                                                      To: SFVeg@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Date: Tuesday, August 31, 2010, 12:07 PM

                                                       

                                                      I really appreciate Adrian's honest opinion; it's not one you often hear on veg message boards.

                                                      I respect people who openly acknowledge the suffering caused by their choices, but who decide that it's "worth it" to get whatever taste, convenience, nutrition, etc, that they get from those choices. At least these people are being up-front and honest.

                                                      As an aside (and not directed at anyone here; I'm referring to a view I often see expressed in other places) ... what really annoys me is people who say that eating dairy and egg is OK because they are PRETENDING that animals don't suffer for the dairy and eggs. Like they think they are making a compassionate choice by eating dairy and eggs. Of course we all know that it's not a compassionate choice to consume the dairy and eggs readily available at any fast food restaurant or grocery store (the dairy and eggs most people are eating). (I make this distinction, rather than making a blanket statement, because I know that it's possible to keep chicken hens as pets and eat the unfertilized eggs without causing any harm; even the chickens like to eat their own unfertilized eggs; but most people don't have access to eggs from this source. Also, you could make butter and cheese from your wife's breast milk without causing any harm to anyone, but not many people have access to that either! LOL!)

                                                      Basically, I respect someone like Adrian because he/she is owning up to truth and taking responsibility for it.

                                                      Of course, Adrian, there are a lot of us who do our best on all fronts, in terms of trying to protect animals and the environment ... we try to MINIMIZE all sort of things ... driving, flying (flying is worse than driving!!!), use of disposables, buying products from sweatshops, supporting companies that pollute rivers, using toxic cleaning products in the home, etc etc etc, AND ... well, for me, going vegan is a big part of that philosophy of trying to minimize our environmental footprint as well as the suffering we cause in this world.

                                                      I must admit, I've never been a picky eater, so it's really quite easy for me to go without this or that non-vegan thing such as a puffy pastry or a cheesy omelet. For me, it's easy to just eat something vegan instead. I love my vegan food, and yes, I would also the love the taste of non-vegan food (I used to eat it and enjoy it all the time, of course; I'm sure it still tastes the same!). But for me, it's not like the non-vegan food is so tasty that I need to insist on eating it, at the expense of the animals who would be suffering to make sure I can have it. Definitely not. I don't care if it's chocolate eclairs or puffy pastries ... to me, it's not worth it.

                                                      But I know, a lot of people are trained to be foodies and to demand certain flavors; otherwise, they consider that they are being deprived of something good in life. The way I see it, people like Adrian (and honest meat eaters, the ones who aren't putting on blinders) have a different value system than I do. When people openly acknowledge how bad things are for animals, but they truly believe "it's worth it" .... well, there's nothing I can think of to argue with that. They've looked at the facts squarely and made their decision based on their own value system. It's just that their value system is different from mine.

                                                      The thing I don't respect is when people hide from the truth, which is something Adrian is obviously not doing.

                                                      My 2 cents for the collection hat. :)
                                                      -Rachel D.
                                                      San Francisco, CA

                                                      --- In SFVeg@yahoogroups.com, philip gelb <phil@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > are you going to give these things up or just postulating? curious.
                                                      >
                                                      > phil
                                                      >
                                                      > philip gelb
                                                      > phil@...
                                                      > http://philipgelb.com
                                                      > http://philipgelb.blogspot.com/
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > On Aug 31, 2010, at 8:23 AM, Adrian Maestas wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > I was vegan for a few years back in the mid 90's, but I like cheese
                                                      > > and puff pastry.
                                                      > > I know the animals are treated badly, but there are so many things
                                                      > > in the world I will give up first before cheese. Like driving. And
                                                      > > using paper products. patronizing companies that dump waste into the
                                                      > > sea and freshwater rivers. Stuff like that.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > I'll give all that up before cheese. And pastries. that egg replacer
                                                      > > stuff doesn't make the patsry puff up enough. I've tried all the egg
                                                      > > substitutes for baking, and it just is not the same. creamers and
                                                      > > the like are easy to replace now with a soy based one, but until
                                                      > > they figure out how to make a souffle without eggs.....
                                                      > >
                                                      > > My $.02
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > --- On Mon, 8/30/10, Mitch Cohen <redbeerd@...> wrote:
                                                      > >
                                                      > > From: Mitch Cohen <redbeerd@...>
                                                      > > Subject: RE: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant
                                                      > > To: sfveg@yahoogroups.com
                                                      > > Date: Monday, August 30, 2010, 11:36 PM
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > there are omnivores who are in the front lines fighting against
                                                      > > factory-farming. their reasons & ultimate goals are clearly
                                                      > > different than ours. however, there are more potential anti-factory-
                                                      > > farming omnivores than there are vegans. so, if one's short-term
                                                      > > goals include drastically reducing factory-farming, i suggest we
                                                      > > consider the anti-factory-farming "sustainable-farming" omnivore
                                                      > > movement, and its leading, "showcase" restaurants (chez panisse,
                                                      > > greens, gather, encuentro) as allies in the fight against factory-
                                                      > > farming.
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > if enough consciousness & awareness can be raised to get more
                                                      > > omnivores to consider avoiding factory-farmed products, then
                                                      > > omnivores will have to make plant-based food a huger percentage of
                                                      > > their diet (since there simply is NOT enough non-factory-farmed
                                                      > > animal-based "food" available to be a big portion of their diet, and
                                                      > > it's much more expensive).
                                                      > >
                                                      > > a message telling folks anything short of 100% vegan just turns off
                                                      > > too many people. let others tell them to transition to non-factory-
                                                      > > farmed "food". once omnivores are willing to make changes and
                                                      > > listen, hopefully they'll be more willing to hear our message
                                                      > >
                                                      > > To: SFVeg@yahoogroups.com
                                                      > > From: gsmith59@...
                                                      > > Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 21:52:05 -0700
                                                      > > Subject: Re: [SFVS] Greens Restaurant
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > It is for these reasons you state that I have never been there in
                                                      > > the first
                                                      > > place.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > I don't want to support a restaurant which glorifies the consumption
                                                      > > of animal
                                                      > > products as necessary for a good meal, be they from abused or from
                                                      > > dead
                                                      > > animals.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > When I transitioned from omnivore to a vegan diet the first thing I
                                                      > > quit was
                                                      > > dairy, and the second thing I quit was eggs. Only then did I say
                                                      > > "what the
                                                      > > heck" and went all the way to vegan.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > What might have made some sense 150 years ago in the days of small
                                                      > > time Farmer
                                                      > > MacDonald makes no ethical sense in the current era of cruel,
                                                      > > mechanistic
                                                      > > agribusiness.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Greg
                                                      > >
                                                      > > -----Original Message-----
                                                      > >
                                                      > > >I was just at Green's two Sundays ago, because I had tickets to a
                                                      > > piano
                                                      > > >concert in the Cowell Theater that is two steps away from Green's.
                                                      > > I'm a
                                                      > > >vegan. 99% of the menu was full of eggs and dairy, particularly
                                                      > > cheese.
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > After seeing the two documentaries from Tribe of Heart, Peaceable
                                                      > > >Kingdom and Peaceable Kingdom, the Journey Home, I see the egg and
                                                      > > dairy
                                                      > > >industry as being as cruel as the meat industry. Eggs and dairy both
                                                      > > >involve
                                                      > > >inhumane conditions and death. Living newborn male chicks are tossed
                                                      > > >away
                                                      > > >in heaps like garbage on egg farms. Battery cages are torture
                                                      > > chambers.
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > >"Spent" hens are killed. Cows are kept pregnant all the time, suffer
                                                      > > >from
                                                      > > >mammary infections, are pumped full of drugs and can't move,
                                                      > > because they
                                                      > > >are tethered to the milk machines for life; their male offspring are
                                                      > > >wrenched
                                                      > > >from them at birth and become veal, sent to slaughter after a short
                                                      > > life
                                                      > > >of immobility.
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > I am as repulsed at seeing "vegetarian" food as I am at a
                                                      > > steakhouse.
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > >I realize I cannot go back to Green's again.
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > Sincerely, Bonnie Knight, San Francisco
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      >


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