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Need Help=celtic brewing basket

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  • anxiousgamer
    I want to make a brewing basket from 500 ad. I need any info or help that i can get, I havent made a basket since i was a kid. I want to make this as
    Message 1 of 17 , Jan 14, 2008
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      I want to make a brewing basket from 500 ad. I need any info or help
      that i can get, I havent made a basket since i was a kid. I want to
      make this as authentic as humanly possible. So any help at all would
      be appreciated. It has to be submursed into hot water, and hold
      ingredients. So it has to be hardy.
      thanks.
    • Marian Walke
      ... What kind of ingredients? Whole grains? ground-up stuff? liquids? It would make a difference in how close the weave has to be. --Old Marian
      Message 2 of 17 , Jan 14, 2008
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        anxiousgamer wrote:
        >
        >
        > I want to make a brewing basket from 500 ad. I need any info or help
        > that i can get, I havent made a basket since i was a kid. I want to
        > make this as authentic as humanly possible. So any help at all would
        > be appreciated. It has to be submursed into hot water, and hold
        > ingredients. So it has to be hardy.
        > thanks.

        What kind of ingredients? Whole grains? ground-up stuff? liquids? It
        would make a difference in how close the weave has to be.

        --Old Marian
      • Margaret Cochrane
        Well, you re going to have to give some more information. I ve never heard of a brewing basket before (but then, I don t brew). Do you have a picture or a
        Message 3 of 17 , Jan 14, 2008
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          Well, you're going to have to give some more information. I've never heard of a brewing basket before (but then, I don't brew). Do you have a picture or a museum exhibit or a mention in a book of such a thing? That's an awfully specific time period, but you didn't mention a general location - are you talking about the edges of what is now the UK, or Celtic Spain, or what? What sorts of ingredients does it need to hold? Does it have to be impermiable, or more like a strainer?

          -----Original Message-----
          >From: anxiousgamer <anxiousgamer@...>
          >Sent: Jan 14, 2008 10:47 AM
          >To: SCAbasketry@yahoogroups.com
          >Subject: [SCAbasketry] Need Help=celtic brewing basket
          >
          >I want to make a brewing basket from 500 ad. I need any info or help
          >that i can get, I havent made a basket since i was a kid. I want to
          >make this as authentic as humanly possible. So any help at all would
          >be appreciated. It has to be submursed into hot water, and hold
          >ingredients. So it has to be hardy.
          >thanks.
          >


          -Margaret
          -----------------------------------------------------
          Margaret Cochrane (quarterly sable and gules, two feathers fesswise argent)
          Kappellenberg
          Windmasters' Hill, Atlantia
        • anxiousgamer
          i am not sure of the ingredients yet. Probably grains/ ground hazelnuts. Ireland, Celt 500 ad. here is a site about what im looking at doing...
          Message 4 of 17 , Jan 14, 2008
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            i am not sure of the ingredients yet. Probably grains/ ground
            hazelnuts.

            Ireland, Celt 500 ad.

            here is a site about what im looking at doing...


            http://mooregroup.wordpress.com/2007/10/08/the-archaeology-ireland-
            article/

            "The Experiment

            The stones were heated in a fire for roughly two hours. Step one
            involved transferring the heated stones into the trough using a shovel.
            After 15 minutes we achieved our optimum temperature of 60-70c. This
            temperature is easily identified by observing the surface of the water.
            As the water heats it becomes thinner, the ripples subside and it
            becomes glassy and mirror still. The ideal temperature is when the
            clearest reflection can be seen. At this point we half submerged a
            wicker basket in the trough and began to add our barley in small
            amounts to prevent the mash from congealing. Over a period of 45
            minutes, maintaining a fairly constant temperature with the addition of
            occasional heated stones (some of which were recovered from the trough
            and reheated) our water transformed into a sweet, syrupy, workable
            wort. If we had decided to add milk, the resultant concoction would be
            similar to modern day Horlicks or could have been served as porridge or
            been used to make malt loaf."





            --- In SCAbasketry@yahoogroups.com, Marian Walke <marian@...> wrote:
            >
            > anxiousgamer wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > I want to make a brewing basket from 500 ad. I need any info or help
            > > that i can get, I havent made a basket since i was a kid. I want to
            > > make this as authentic as humanly possible. So any help at all would
            > > be appreciated. It has to be submursed into hot water, and hold
            > > ingredients. So it has to be hardy.
            > > thanks.
            >
            > What kind of ingredients? Whole grains? ground-up stuff? liquids? It
            > would make a difference in how close the weave has to be.
            >
            > --Old Marian
            >
          • Harry Goudie
            I says in the text that a wicker basket was used and this means a basket made from willow. I think it would be able to withstand soaking in hot water for the
            Message 5 of 17 , Jan 15, 2008
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              I says in the text that a wicker basket was used and this means a basket
              made from willow. I think it would be able to withstand soaking in hot
              water for the times mentioned.
              Harry
            • Margaret Cochrane
              Willow in the context of British Isles basketmaking pretty much always means White Willow, which is not the American-native Black Willow nor the 19c. hybrid
              Message 6 of 17 , Jan 15, 2008
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                Willow in the context of British Isles basketmaking pretty much always means White Willow, which is not the American-native Black Willow nor the 19c. hybrid Weeping Willow, both of which are supposedly inferior for basketmaking. I've yet to find a source for White Willow in the southeastern US (I'm likely to order a tree for planting this year, if I find a source).

                -----Original Message-----
                >From: Harry Goudie <luichart.woollens@...>
                >Sent: Jan 15, 2008 5:15 AM
                >To: SCAbasketry@yahoogroups.com
                >Subject: Re: [SCAbasketry] Re: Need Help=celtic brewing basket
                >
                >I says in the text that a wicker basket was used and this means a basket
                >made from willow. I think it would be able to withstand soaking in hot
                >water for the times mentioned.
                >Harry
                >


                -Margaret
                -----------------------------------------------------
                Margaret Cochrane (quarterly sable and gules, two feathers fesswise argent)
                Kappellenberg
                Windmasters' Hill, Atlantia
              • Harry Goudie
                Most basketry in the British Isles (including Ireland) is willow basketry. The varieties used are usually Salix triandra or Salix purpurea. When we talk about
                Message 7 of 17 , Jan 15, 2008
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                  Most basketry in the British Isles (including Ireland) is willow basketry.
                  The varieties used are usually Salix triandra or Salix purpurea. When we
                  talk about white willow we are usually referring to stripped willow. Salix
                  Alba which is known as white willow is not really a popular basketry willow.
                  I think for the purpose that this basket is used then stripped willow would
                  be best as if the bark is left on then it might start to peel because of the
                  temperature of the liquid. The most common willow available to the
                  basketmaker with the bark removed is known as Buff Willow which has been
                  boiled in order to remove the bark. This would be my choice of material for
                  a brewing basket.
                  Harry
                • Marian Walke
                  ... Try contacting: Ron and Bobbie Harrison Willow Dreams Farm 970 Casey Fork Cook Road Edmonton, KY 42129 270-432-4486
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jan 15, 2008
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                    Margaret Cochrane wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Willow in the context of British Isles basketmaking pretty much always
                    > means White Willow, which is not the American-native Black Willow nor
                    > the 19c. hybrid Weeping Willow, both of which are supposedly inferior
                    > for basketmaking. I've yet to find a source for White Willow in the
                    > southeastern US (I'm likely to order a tree for planting this year, if I
                    > find a source).

                    Try contacting:

                    Ron and Bobbie Harrison
                    Willow Dreams Farm
                    970 Casey Fork
                    Cook Road
                    Edmonton, KY 42129
                    270-432-4486
                    http://scrtc.com/~rharrison62/english.html

                    They supply willow rods dried and ready for weaving as well as cuttings
                    for planting. Cuttings are shipped normally December thru March 15th.

                    Best of luck,
                    --Old Marian
                  • Country Seat - Angie Wagner
                    Based on the time period and location, the basket was most likely made from willow. There would be small spaces between the strands of willow to allow the
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jan 15, 2008
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                      Based on the time period and location, the basket was most likely made from willow.
                      There would be small spaces between the strands of willow to allow the water to pass through, but a tightly woven willow basket would contain the grains, etc..
                      You might want to contact Bonnie Gale in NY - http://www.msu.edu/user/shermanh/galeb/index.htm .
                      She weaves and sells willow, she's also English so is familiar with traditional European willow basketry.
                      Happy weaving,
                      Angie Wagner
                      www.countryseat.com
                      angie@...



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Jane Unger
                      Do you know the Latin name for white willow? We sell a number of different willows that are good for basket making, but I m not sure which one you might be
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jan 15, 2008
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                        Do you know the Latin name for white willow? We sell a number of different willows that are good for basket making, but I'm not sure which one you might be looking for. A good source for willows is Forest Farm Nursery in Oregon.
                        Jane Unger

                        Margaret Cochrane <margaretcochrane@...> wrote:
                        Willow in the context of British Isles basketmaking pretty much always means White Willow, which is not the American-native Black Willow nor the 19c. hybrid Weeping Willow, both of which are supposedly inferior for basketmaking. I've yet to find a source for White Willow in the southeastern US (I'm likely to order a tree for planting this year, if I find a source).

                        -----Original Message-----
                        >From: Harry Goudie <luichart.woollens@...>
                        >Sent: Jan 15, 2008 5:15 AM
                        >To: SCAbasketry@yahoogroups.com
                        >Subject: Re: [SCAbasketry] Re: Need Help=celtic brewing basket
                        >
                        >I says in the text that a wicker basket was used and this means a basket
                        >made from willow. I think it would be able to withstand soaking in hot
                        >water for the times mentioned.
                        >Harry
                        >

                        -Margaret
                        -----------------------------------------------------
                        Margaret Cochrane (quarterly sable and gules, two feathers fesswise argent)
                        Kappellenberg
                        Windmasters' Hill, Atlantia







                        ---------------------------------
                        Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • anxiousgamer
                        They have tons of selections... which should i pick, which is more period? Aibell ... always ... nor ... inferior ... the ... year, if I ... cuttings ... 15th.
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jan 20, 2008
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                          They have tons of selections... which should i pick, which is more
                          period?
                          Aibell


                          --- In SCAbasketry@yahoogroups.com, Marian Walke <marian@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Margaret Cochrane wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Willow in the context of British Isles basketmaking pretty much
                          always
                          > > means White Willow, which is not the American-native Black Willow
                          nor
                          > > the 19c. hybrid Weeping Willow, both of which are supposedly
                          inferior
                          > > for basketmaking. I've yet to find a source for White Willow in
                          the
                          > > southeastern US (I'm likely to order a tree for planting this
                          year, if I
                          > > find a source).
                          >
                          > Try contacting:
                          >
                          > Ron and Bobbie Harrison
                          > Willow Dreams Farm
                          > 970 Casey Fork
                          > Cook Road
                          > Edmonton, KY 42129
                          > 270-432-4486
                          > http://scrtc.com/~rharrison62/english.html
                          >
                          > They supply willow rods dried and ready for weaving as well as
                          cuttings
                          > for planting. Cuttings are shipped normally December thru March
                          15th.
                          >
                          > Best of luck,
                          > --Old Marian
                          >
                        • neil@basketmaker.net
                          RE: Re: Need Help=celtic brewing basketCommon Osier (Salix viminalis) was certainly the commonly used willow in my part of the north of England. There is an
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jan 21, 2008
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                            RE: Re: Need Help=celtic brewing basketCommon Osier (Salix viminalis) was certainly the commonly used willow in my part of the north of England. There is an abandoned and overgrown Osiery near my home which is mostly viminalis.  This is probably a good indication for the 1700s onwards, but before that, I am not aware of any information on the specific species in use.  It is likely that fresh green willow would have been stripped to remove the bark, as it would add a very bitter flavour to the mash if it was left in place.  If you wanted to do the experiment properly, you need to cut the willow just as the buds break and the leaves come out in early Spring.  It is easier to strip the bark if you cut the rods in midwinter, then stand them in a few inches of water and allow them to grow for a few weeks until the leaves are out.  The bark will then be very easy to remove with the back of a knife.

                            I've not heard of this usage of baskets before, I am a bit surprised as it would be a lot simpler to do the mash in a wooden stave bucket and filter the resulting wort through some felted or woven wool.  It would be a nice experiment to try!

                            Most commercially available willow in the UK in modern times seems to be Salix triandra, with smaller amounts of alba, variously crossed with fragilis and purpurea.

                            Neil
                            www.basketassoc.org
                            www.basketmakersco.org




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Marian Walke
                            Any of the Salix purpurea will serve your needs (i.e., traditional for European and English baskets), but if you re just starting basketry, go with the ones
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jan 21, 2008
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                              Any of the Salix purpurea will serve your needs (i.e., traditional for
                              European and English baskets), but if you're just starting basketry, go
                              with the ones that have the slimmer rods. Willow is more difficult to
                              manipulate than cane and reed and the slender rods are easier to work
                              with. Willow weaving is hard enough on the thumbs even with the thin rods!

                              You might also look at Bonnie Gale's site, English Basketry Willows:
                              http://www.msu.edu/user/shermanh/galeb/index.htm

                              She has a catalogue of books for sale, some of which might be helpful to
                              you:
                              http://www.msu.edu/user/shermanh/galeb/wcatbook.htm


                              anxiousgamer wrote:
                              >
                              > They have tons of selections... which should i pick, which is more
                              > period?
                              > Aibell

                              --Old Marian
                            • Harry Goudie
                              Perhaps the reason a basket was used was that it was the carrier of the yeast.
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jan 22, 2008
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                                Perhaps the reason a basket was used was that it was the "carrier" of
                                the yeast.
                              • anxiousgamer
                                How many lbs makes a good size basket? Id like to practice too.. so any suggestions on how much i should order? Aibell
                                Message 15 of 17 , Jan 31, 2008
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                                  How many lbs makes a good size basket?

                                  Id like to practice too.. so any suggestions on how much i should order?


                                  Aibell
                                • Marian Walke
                                  ... Maybe you should start with a good book on the subject, such as WILLOW WORK, by Mary Butcher, 64 pages - soft cover, about $23. It would answer many of
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Feb 2 7:48 PM
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                                    anxiousgamer wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > How many lbs makes a good size basket?
                                    >
                                    > Id like to practice too.. so any suggestions on how much i should order?
                                    >

                                    Maybe you should start with a good book on the subject, such as WILLOW
                                    WORK, by Mary Butcher, 64 pages - soft cover, about $23. It would
                                    answer many of your questions.

                                    --Old Marian
                                  • Jonas Hasselrot
                                    A late response regarding brewing baskets: I read Billy Quinn s description of the brewing experiment with great interest and contacted him about the basket
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Feb 20 1:29 PM
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                                      A late response regarding brewing baskets: I read Billy Quinn's
                                      description of the brewing experiment with great interest and
                                      contacted him about the basket used. He responded with the following:

                                      "We simply needed a large 'sieve' to wash the malted barley out and
                                      convert the starches to soluble sugars, we know from excavated
                                      examples that wicker was used to make the actual trough and we
                                      figured that a similar basket would be ideally suited for our
                                      purpose and indeed it proved very effective. There is no evidence to
                                      support this but it was a practical solution to our problem."

                                      The lack of evidence is a bit disappointing, but baskets have indeed
                                      been used when brewing. "Mash sieves" or "hop sieves" are frequently
                                      found in Swedish museums. They are shaped like short stretchers
                                      (barrows) having a basket in the middle. They could be put across
                                      the rim of a tub and could be filled with straw to improve the
                                      straining. I cannot say for how long such sieves have been used, but
                                      the basket is a frame (rib) basket, a technique that is rather old.

                                      Jonas Hasselrot, Sweden
                                      http://web.telia.com/~u85512368/

                                      --- In SCAbasketry@yahoogroups.com, "anxiousgamer"
                                      <anxiousgamer@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > i am not sure of the ingredients yet. Probably grains/ ground
                                      > hazelnuts.
                                      >
                                      > Ireland, Celt 500 ad.
                                      >
                                      > here is a site about what im looking at doing...
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > http://mooregroup.wordpress.com/2007/10/08/the-archaeology-ireland-
                                      > article/
                                      >
                                      > "The Experiment
                                      >
                                      > The stones were heated in a fire for roughly two hours. Step one
                                      > involved transferring the heated stones into the trough using a
                                      shovel.
                                      > After 15 minutes we achieved our optimum temperature of 60-70c.
                                      This
                                      > temperature is easily identified by observing the surface of the
                                      water.
                                      > As the water heats it becomes thinner, the ripples subside and it
                                      > becomes glassy and mirror still. The ideal temperature is when the
                                      > clearest reflection can be seen. At this point we half submerged a
                                      > wicker basket in the trough and began to add our barley in small
                                      > amounts to prevent the mash from congealing. Over a period of 45
                                      > minutes, maintaining a fairly constant temperature with the
                                      addition of
                                      > occasional heated stones (some of which were recovered from the
                                      trough
                                      > and reheated) our water transformed into a sweet, syrupy, workable
                                      > wort. If we had decided to add milk, the resultant concoction
                                      would be
                                      > similar to modern day Horlicks or could have been served as
                                      porridge or
                                      > been used to make malt loaf."
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In SCAbasketry@yahoogroups.com, Marian Walke <marian@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > anxiousgamer wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I want to make a brewing basket from 500 ad. I need any info
                                      or help
                                      > > > that i can get, I havent made a basket since i was a kid. I
                                      want to
                                      > > > make this as authentic as humanly possible. So any help at all
                                      would
                                      > > > be appreciated. It has to be submursed into hot water, and hold
                                      > > > ingredients. So it has to be hardy.
                                      > > > thanks.
                                      > >
                                      > > What kind of ingredients? Whole grains? ground-up stuff?
                                      liquids? It
                                      > > would make a difference in how close the weave has to be.
                                      > >
                                      > > --Old Marian
                                      > >
                                      >
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