Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

RE: [SCA_India] V-neck choli

Expand Messages
  • Crystal James
    I am new here and I have a question about the V-neck choli. I made the Mughal choli, (I found the pattern in the files section). When you talk about V-neck
    Message 1 of 13 , Nov 1, 2003
       I am new here and I have a question about the V-neck choli.
      I made the Mughal choli, (I found the pattern in the files section).  When you talk about V-neck cholis is that what you are refering to?
       
      Crystal

      Marsha McLean <marshamclean@...> wrote:
      > As as a side note, my replys will be short for the
      > next couple of weeks, as I am in India.
      > Meenakshi
      >
      PPTHTHTHTHTPTHT!

      Madinia, looking forward to spring...




      SCA_India Mailing List Info:
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA_India
                             or
        List owner:   SCA_India-owner@yahoogroups.com


      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


      Do you Yahoo!?
      Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears

    • bethlakshmi
      ... section). When you talk about V-neck cholis is that what you are refering to? ... Hi there! What everyone s talking about can be seen in pictures on our
      Message 2 of 13 , Nov 3, 2003
        --- In SCA_India@yahoogroups.com, Crystal James
        <ministra_crystal@y...> wrote:
        > I am new here and I have a question about the V-neck choli.
        > I made the Mughal choli, (I found the pattern in the files
        section). When you talk about V-neck cholis is that what you are
        refering to?
        >
        > Crystal
        >

        Hi there!

        What everyone's talking about can be seen in pictures on our Files
        section. Under the folder "Meenakshi's pictures" are the pictures
        we're talking about.

        lostysari.jpg - is a picture of Deccani V-necked cholis to which
        Meenakshi was referring.

        Wedding3.jpg - is a new scan Meenakshi just recently put up that has
        probably Southern women wearing V-neck cholis - which was what
        started the discussion.

        Both have a pretty different cut (IMO) from the Mughal choli
        (choli3.jpg - Rashid's choli - right?) - while it does come to a
        point, the way the sleeves are set onto the front, I would think that
        that it is a much less pointy V shape. But I could be wrong, I
        haven't tried this choli pattern yet. A more V-shaped choli pattern
        would be a pattern put out by Fat Chance Belly Dance (FCBD), which
        doesn't necessarily aim to be period, but it does come close to the
        shape seen particularly in Deccani cholis.

        I believe the Mughal choli was based off a very different shape of
        choli - so it's not a big surprise it's different. Rashid showed a
        picture of his inspiration for that choli a while back and I seem to
        remember the neckline being a lot less dramatic in it's pointy-ness.

        --------------------------

        As for the "what do we call it" meta-discussion, I cast my vote for
        NOT calling every type of choli by it's language-specific name. I
        think it'd make it harder for new people to get into the discussion,
        and I don't really want to memorize all the different names for
        cholis. It always drives me nuts when books go and call a garment
        known most widely as a certain name (like choli, dupatta, salwar),
        and only use the regional name - if I don't have a picture in front
        of me, I can never figure out what it's talking about.

        I've usually been a fan of "Mughal choli", "Deccani choli", "Ajanta
        choli", etc. That tells you where/when we are talking about and
        makes it pretty clear what general type of garment we are referring
        to. Mughal choli gets kinda fuzzy, because there's so many out
        there, but I assume that as we figure out the differences, we'll find
        ways to describe them.

        -Lakshmi
      • unclrashid
        ... has ... that ... I agree that my choli pattern is probably not that similar to what is shown in these pics. While the pattern I gave does have a bit of a
        Message 3 of 13 , Nov 3, 2003
          --- In SCA_India@yahoogroups.com, "bethlakshmi" <beth@p...> wrote:
          > --- In SCA_India@yahoogroups.com, Crystal James
          > <ministra_crystal@y...> wrote:
          > > I am new here and I have a question about the V-neck choli.
          > > I made the Mughal choli, (I found the pattern in the files
          > section). When you talk about V-neck cholis is that what you are
          > refering to?
          > >
          > > Crystal
          > >
          > Under the folder "Meenakshi's pictures" are the pictures
          > we're talking about.
          >
          > lostysari.jpg - is a picture of Deccani V-necked cholis to which
          > Meenakshi was referring.
          >
          > Wedding3.jpg - is a new scan Meenakshi just recently put up that
          has
          > probably Southern women wearing V-neck cholis - which was what
          > started the discussion.
          >
          > Both have a pretty different cut (IMO) from the Mughal choli
          > (choli3.jpg - Rashid's choli - right?) - while it does come to a
          > point, the way the sleeves are set onto the front, I would think
          that
          > that it is a much less pointy V shape. But I could be wrong, I
          > haven't tried this choli pattern yet.

          I agree that my choli pattern is probably not that similar to what
          is shown in these pics. While the pattern I gave does have a bit of
          a "V", the neckline is comparatively high and shows hardly any
          cleavage. It also pushes the breasts just slightly together.

          The pics talked about here do vary somewhat, byt they do seem to be
          trending towards a consesus of having the "V" extend well down
          between the breasts and the breasts well-seperated from each other.

          It can frequently be difficult to tell from this style of
          illustration (and I am NOT an expert on the Indian stuff) how much
          is a realistic representation and how much is stylized shorthand for
          stuff people were supposed to be able to recognize. I have recently
          come to the conclusion (and I am going contrary to standard SCA
          interpretation and some academic thought, here) that in the absence
          of proof to the contrary one should assume that there is at least
          some basis in reality for the way clothing is represented. Based on
          this, I would have to say that such a deep "V" indicates at least
          there was a trend for cholis of this area to be cut lower that the
          Mughal ones.

          After looking at the pics, I am also wondering if maybe this style
          opens down the front, and the varying depths of the "V" are the
          result of how open they are being worn? (this seems contrary to the
          fact that I know for sure that many cholis from other areas open in
          back) Anyone have any thoughts?

          Rashid
        • Marsha McLean
          Hmm, that makes sense. Certainly if the opening were in front, and closed with hooks and eyes, then the opening would change with the number of hooks
          Message 4 of 13 , Nov 3, 2003
            Hmm, that makes sense. Certainly if the opening were in front, and
            closed with hooks and eyes, then the opening would change with the
            number of hooks fastened. Given that I like an open neck and sometimes
            need more coverage, this style would really appeal to me. I might take
            the patterns in Files and see what I can extrapolate....

            Which one was the grapefruit choli again?

            Madinia

            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: unclrashid [mailto:unclrashid@...]
            I am also wondering if maybe this style
            > opens down the front, and the varying depths of the "V" are the
            > result of how open they are being worn? (this seems contrary to the
            > fact that I know for sure that many cholis from other areas open in
            > back) Anyone have any thoughts?
            >
            > Rashid
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            >
            > SCA_India Mailing List Info:
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA_India
            > or
            > List owner: SCA_India-owner@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          • Jim and Andi
            I would attempt to document hooks & eyes being used in 15th & 16th century central India before embarking on a new choli pattern. If you don t give a rat s
            Message 5 of 13 , Nov 3, 2003
              I would attempt to document hooks & eyes being used in 15th & 16th century
              central India before embarking on a new choli pattern. If you don't give a
              rat's posterior about authenticity, then I think Lakshmi already has a
              wonderful front-opening choli pattern that would work.

              Madhavi

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Marsha McLean [mailto:marshamclean@...]
              Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 2:59 PM
              To: SCA_India@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [SCA_India] Re: V-neck choli

              Hmm, that makes sense. Certainly if the opening were in front, and
              closed with hooks and eyes, then the opening would change with the
              number of hooks fastened. Given that I like an open neck and sometimes
              need more coverage, this style would really appeal to me. I might take
              the patterns in Files and see what I can extrapolate....

              Which one was the grapefruit choli again?

              Madinia
            • Marsha McLean
              Well, shoot. I know so well that they were used for a long time in Europe... I *do* give a rat s patoot. Then again, anything s better than what I have
              Message 6 of 13 , Nov 3, 2003
                Well, shoot. I know so well that they were used for a long time in
                Europe... I *do* give a rat's patoot. Then again, anything's better
                than what I have now.

                But I'll bite (tho' not the rat's patoot): how were they fastened? Just
                cloth ties, or is there more? Asim, any of this in your new book?

                Madinia

                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Jim and Andi [mailto:icbhod@...]
                > Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 8:26 PM
                > To: SCA_India@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: RE: [SCA_India] Re: V-neck choli
                >
                > I would attempt to document hooks & eyes being used in 15th & 16th
                century
                > central India before embarking on a new choli pattern. If you don't
                give a
                > rat's posterior about authenticity, then I think Lakshmi already has a
                > wonderful front-opening choli pattern that would work.
                >
                > Madhavi
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Marsha McLean [mailto:marshamclean@...]
                > Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 2:59 PM
                > To: SCA_India@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: RE: [SCA_India] Re: V-neck choli
                >
                > Hmm, that makes sense. Certainly if the opening were in front, and
                > closed with hooks and eyes, then the opening would change with the
                > number of hooks fastened. Given that I like an open neck and
                sometimes
                > need more coverage, this style would really appeal to me. I might
                take
                > the patterns in Files and see what I can extrapolate....
                >
                > Which one was the grapefruit choli again?
                >
                > Madinia
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                >
                > SCA_India Mailing List Info:
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA_India
                > or
                > List owner: SCA_India-owner@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              • bethlakshmi
                ... better ... Just ... The pictures of closures I ve seen are either: - back tied - behind neck and just under the boobs in the back. It s particularly
                Message 7 of 13 , Nov 4, 2003
                  --- In SCA_India@yahoogroups.com, "Marsha McLean" <marshamclean@r...>
                  wrote:
                  > Well, shoot. I know so well that they were used for a long time in
                  > Europe... I *do* give a rat's patoot. Then again, anything's
                  better
                  > than what I have now.
                  >
                  > But I'll bite (tho' not the rat's patoot): how were they fastened?
                  Just
                  > cloth ties, or is there more? Asim, any of this in your new book?
                  >
                  > Madinia
                  >

                  The pictures of closures I've seen are either:

                  - back tied - behind neck and just under the boobs in the back. It's
                  particularly visible in Mughal era cholis, where sometimes the
                  figures are facing "behind", giving us a full view of the back.
                  Sometimes, even from the front, you can see flesh peeping out under
                  the armpit, as though the boobs were just way too big for this
                  particular choli.

                  - under-arm lacing - there's exactly one Ajanta cave representation
                  of a woman with her arms raised and underneath her arm is what looks
                  for all the world like criss-cross lacing (like a sneaker) - it seems
                  to go from the hem of the sleeve, to the hem of the bottom of the
                  choli (which is short in that picture - just under the boobs). Other
                  paintings and statues of that era show cholis that have both a front
                  and a back, with no visible closure anywhere. Bhairavi pointed all
                  this out to me - and she's put statues of Buddhist images up in
                  either the Photos or Files section.

                  I can't remember seeing pre-Mughal cholis that had either the back of
                  the figure, or enough detail of the front to give a very good idea of
                  how they might have been closed. Most of them are cartoony enough
                  that I can't honestly say what the closure might be.

                  I'm usually pretty leary of hooks and eyes on cholis in period - but
                  then I'm of the "don't believe it until I see it" philosophy. It
                  doesn't mean I don't wear hook & eye front closing cholis - but I
                  won't cite them as period at all. In fact, I generally point folks
                  away from the cholis I've been wearing up until this year.

                  This year, I started making cholis based on Bhairavi and Devamati's
                  work - that 1640's choli with possible seam lines that is back-tied
                  and rectangularly constructed. Before then, what I wore was an
                  unholy amalgamation of the Folkwear choli pattern, and the work of an
                  Indian tailor. I compared custom made cholis made for me and fitted
                  the general shapes of the Folkwear pattern to that and dickered with
                  it until I had a choli that made me happy. It was the first garment
                  I made for my persona, and I made it knowing I knew nothing beyond
                  that cholis did exist in period India.

                  I strongly un-recommend that process. Fitting the Folkwear choli
                  (unless you fit the Folkwear Ideal Woman shape) is not easy and they
                  offer no real directions for pattern adjustment. Besides, the
                  Folkwear choli is generaly fabric-wasteful. It revolves around lots
                  of curvy edges and uses darts to get the 3-dimensionality of the boob-
                  shape. Plus the front closures. So as a general pattern - it looks
                  about as modern European as you can get. It does support my boobs
                  without a bra (I'm a 38 C-D), but so does Bhairavi's pattern. And if
                  I hadn't had a working choli to compare to, it would have taken many,
                  many iterations. As it was, it took about 3 nights, and 3 mock-ups
                  to get a happy pattern. And every choli requires the sewing of all
                  these hooks and eyes (I use 5-6 sets). It is very much like the
                  cholis I see most modern urban Indian women wearing.

                  By comparision, Bhairavi's rectangular pattern reduced the fabric
                  usage from 2-2.5 yards to ~1 yard. I did 2 mockups to get there
                  (some of that is that Bhairavi helped me and she's really good at
                  this!), not 3 and I did the mockups in 1 afternoon, and 1/2 an
                  evening. And each choli requires much less sewing time and there's
                  no additional handwork of hooks and eyes to deal with.


                  - Lakshmi
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.