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persona story

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  • rozsalaszlo@yahoo.com
    Hi Madrun, I love how specific your persona story is. wow! how come you chose to be a stolen baby? Just wondering, Rozsa ... period ... area. My ... armies of
    Message 1 of 23 , Jun 1, 2001
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      Hi Madrun,
      I love how specific your persona story is. wow! how come you chose to
      be a stolen baby? Just wondering,
      Rozsa

      --- In SCA_India@y..., "Jim and Andi" <icbhod@h...> wrote:
      > And yet another completely different answer...
      >
      > I do not yet have an Indian name, but my Indian persona is late
      period
      > Banjara, a tribal nomad from the western Rajasthan-eastern Gujarat
      area. My
      > tanda (tribal group) sells supplies such as salt and meat to the
      armies of
      > the Muslims and the Rajputs and herd oxen and goats. I personally
      am a
      > jangad girl, I was stolen from a village in my early childhood to
      replace a
      > baby lost to disease. The tribals are mostly outside the caste
      system, but
      > my persona is a rough sort of Hindu (nomads are exempt from puja,
      though
      > they still do pilgrimages) and the leaders of the tanda are closely
      related
      > with the Rajput kshatriya, our warriors are sometimes used as
      guards for the
      > royal zenanas and our women as maids in them. Outside of the tanda
      I am
      > expected to keep purdah, I must keep my face and hair covered,
      because
      > everyone knows the Muslim soldiers have too little self-control to
      be
      > exposed to our women. I cook, embroider and sew.
      >
      ><snip>
      > Lady Madrun
      > Shire of Glaedenfeld, Meridies
    • Jim and Andi
      Hah!! Hi, Rozsa, are we going to be seeing you at Pennsic? I was reading a book about the Banjaras and it mentioned the jangad women and that it was a part of
      Message 2 of 23 , Jun 1, 2001
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        Hah!! Hi, Rozsa, are we going to be seeing you at Pennsic?
        I was reading a book about the Banjaras and it mentioned the jangad women
        and that it was a part of the Banjara culture that no longer existed, so I
        just thought it was cool. Something different.

        Madrun

        -----Original Message-----
        From: rozsalaszlo@... [mailto:rozsalaszlo@...]
        Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 6:11 PM
        To: SCA_India@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [SCA_India] persona story


        Hi Madrun,
        I love how specific your persona story is. wow! how come you chose to
        be a stolen baby? Just wondering,
        Rozsa

        --- In SCA_India@y..., "Jim and Andi" <icbhod@h...> wrote:
        > And yet another completely different answer...
        >
        > I do not yet have an Indian name, but my Indian persona is late
        period
        > Banjara, a tribal nomad from the western Rajasthan-eastern Gujarat
        area. My
        > tanda (tribal group) sells supplies such as salt and meat to the
        armies of
        > the Muslims and the Rajputs and herd oxen and goats. I personally
        am a
        > jangad girl, I was stolen from a village in my early childhood to
        replace a
        > baby lost to disease. The tribals are mostly outside the caste
        system, but
        > my persona is a rough sort of Hindu (nomads are exempt from puja,
        though
        > they still do pilgrimages) and the leaders of the tanda are closely
        related
        > with the Rajput kshatriya, our warriors are sometimes used as
        guards for the
        > royal zenanas and our women as maids in them. Outside of the tanda
        I am
        > expected to keep purdah, I must keep my face and hair covered,
        because
        > everyone knows the Muslim soldiers have too little self-control to
        be
        > exposed to our women. I cook, embroider and sew.
        >
        ><snip>
        > Lady Madrun
        > Shire of Glaedenfeld, Meridies




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      • rozsalaszlo@yahoo.com
        Hi Madrun, No, we won t make Pennsic this year. We are thinking maybe in 2002. We ve never been to a Pennsic War. But we are leaving this saturday for Lilies
        Message 3 of 23 , Jun 4, 2001
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          Hi Madrun,
          No, we won't make Pennsic this year. We are thinking maybe in 2002.
          We've never been to a Pennsic War. But we are leaving this saturday for
          Lilies War. Anyone going?

          I get twitchy when I hear about "stolen babies". you find that a lot in
          romani persona stories. Like no one wants to be born a gypsy but they
          want to live the lifestyle. You'd think romani families were stealing
          babies left and right - when we all know the marime laws (ritual
          cleaniless) would most likely prohibit the stealing of a gadje (non-
          Rom) baby. Was it common for the Banjaras and the Jangad?
          Thanks, Rozsa

          --- In SCA_India@y..., "Jim and Andi" <icbhod@h...> wrote:
          > Hah!! Hi, Rozsa, are we going to be seeing you at Pennsic?
          > I was reading a book about the Banjaras and it mentioned the jangad women
          > and that it was a part of the Banjara culture that no longer existed, so I
          > just thought it was cool. Something different.
          >
          > Madrun
          >
        • Jim and Andi
          Wow, I hadn t thought about it that way. I just thought it would be a good way to explain my light hair and green eyes. I don t think it was common for them
          Message 4 of 23 , Jun 4, 2001
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            Wow, I hadn't thought about it that way. I just thought it would be a good
            way to "explain" my light hair and green eyes. I don't think it was common
            for them to steal children, and I also have a suspicion that most of the
            jangad girls were not stolen at all. If you think about it, most of the
            trade the Banjara and Lambani were in was selling meat and salt to armies,
            which means they traveled extensively through areas where fighting took
            place. And one thing that happened because of this was orphaned children,
            probably lots of them. I would theorize that most of the jangad girls were
            war orphans that were just adopted into the tandas. The jangad girls were
            held at a slightly lower social rung for their entire lives, they were
            allowed to marry but were mainly servants and manual laborers. And everyone
            knows that lots of manual labor was involved in any medieval system, whether
            nomadic, agrarian or industrial. So it's a very logical way to increase the
            work force of the tanda to take these girls in, especially since in India
            women do the majority of the manual labor. Just my semi-educated guess.

            Madrun

            -----Original Message-----
            From: rozsalaszlo@... [mailto:rozsalaszlo@...]
            Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 1:54 PM
            To: SCA_India@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [SCA_India] Re: persona story


            Hi Madrun,
            No, we won't make Pennsic this year. We are thinking maybe in 2002.
            We've never been to a Pennsic War. But we are leaving this saturday for
            Lilies War. Anyone going?

            I get twitchy when I hear about "stolen babies". you find that a lot in
            romani persona stories. Like no one wants to be born a gypsy but they
            want to live the lifestyle. You'd think romani families were stealing
            babies left and right - when we all know the marime laws (ritual
            cleaniless) would most likely prohibit the stealing of a gadje (non-
            Rom) baby. Was it common for the Banjaras and the Jangad?
            Thanks, Rozsa

            --- In SCA_India@y..., "Jim and Andi" <icbhod@h...> wrote:
            > Hah!! Hi, Rozsa, are we going to be seeing you at Pennsic?
            > I was reading a book about the Banjaras and it mentioned the jangad women
            > and that it was a part of the Banjara culture that no longer existed, so I
            > just thought it was cool. Something different.
            >
            > Madrun
            >




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            http://www.onelist.com/community/SCA_India
            or
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          • Margaret Polson
            It is not that hard to explain light hair and eyes in northern India. There was a lot of movement of people thru that area throughout period starting with
            Message 5 of 23 , Jun 5, 2001
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              It is not that hard to explain light hair and eyes in
              northern India. There was a lot of movement of people
              thru that area throughout period starting with
              Alexander. Even today you get green or blue eyes
              showing up. Think of the National Geographic cover of
              the nomad girl with the bright green eyes. The
              Rajputs delt with the Russians alot also.
              --- Jim and Andi <icbhod@...> wrote:
              > Wow, I hadn't thought about it that way. I just
              > thought it would be a good
              > way to "explain" my light hair and green eyes. I
              > don't think it was common
              > for them to steal children, and I also have a
              > suspicion that most of the
              > jangad girls were not stolen at all. If you think
              > about it, most of the
              > trade the Banjara and Lambani were in was selling
              > meat and salt to armies,
              > which means they traveled extensively through areas
              > where fighting took
              > place. And one thing that happened because of this
              > was orphaned children,
              > probably lots of them. I would theorize that most of
              > the jangad girls were
              > war orphans that were just adopted into the tandas.
              > The jangad girls were
              > held at a slightly lower social rung for their
              > entire lives, they were
              > allowed to marry but were mainly servants and manual
              > laborers. And everyone
              > knows that lots of manual labor was involved in any
              > medieval system, whether
              > nomadic, agrarian or industrial. So it's a very
              > logical way to increase the
              > work force of the tanda to take these girls in,
              > especially since in India
              > women do the majority of the manual labor. Just my
              > semi-educated guess.
              >
              > Madrun
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: rozsalaszlo@...
              > [mailto:rozsalaszlo@...]
              > Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 1:54 PM
              > To: SCA_India@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [SCA_India] Re: persona story
              >
              >
              > Hi Madrun,
              > No, we won't make Pennsic this year. We are thinking
              > maybe in 2002.
              > We've never been to a Pennsic War. But we are
              > leaving this saturday for
              > Lilies War. Anyone going?
              >
              > I get twitchy when I hear about "stolen babies". you
              > find that a lot in
              > romani persona stories. Like no one wants to be born
              > a gypsy but they
              > want to live the lifestyle. You'd think romani
              > families were stealing
              > babies left and right - when we all know the marime
              > laws (ritual
              > cleaniless) would most likely prohibit the stealing
              > of a gadje (non-
              > Rom) baby. Was it common for the Banjaras and the
              > Jangad?
              > Thanks, Rozsa
              >
              > --- In SCA_India@y..., "Jim and Andi" <icbhod@h...>
              > wrote:
              > > Hah!! Hi, Rozsa, are we going to be seeing you at
              > Pennsic?
              > > I was reading a book about the Banjaras and it
              > mentioned the jangad women
              > > and that it was a part of the Banjara culture that
              > no longer existed, so I
              > > just thought it was cool. Something different.
              > >
              > > Madrun
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > SCA_India Mailing List Info:
              > http://www.onelist.com/community/SCA_India
              > or
              > List owner: SCA_India-owner@onelist.com
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
              >


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            • Chandranath
              ... I agreed with everything you said except starting with Alexander. :) There has been a lot of movement of people through northern India, period, since,
              Message 6 of 23 , Jun 5, 2001
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                On Tue, Jun 05, 2001 at 08:00:14AM -0700, Margaret Polson wrote:
                > There was a lot of movement of people
                > thru that area throughout period starting with
                > Alexander.

                I agreed with everything you said except 'starting with Alexander.' :)

                There has been a lot of movement of people through northern India, period,
                since, well, the Aryan arrival which is early enough it's difficult to
                date. Suffice it to say that it has been difficult to make sweeping
                generalizations about the people of that peninsula since the Sumerians
                were undefeated in their league. :)

                (Plus, to the original poster, why in heaven's name would you _want_ to
                explain your mundane appearance? I certainly don't bother, any more than
                I would expect -- as an example -- my Korean sister-in-law to explain
                herself if she wanted an Irish persona.)

                Chandra

                --
                Shri Chandranath, Cadet to Don Timothy, Pursuivant Extraordinaire
                Northern Regional Virtual Scribe
                Captain of the Plumes of the Shire of Mooneschadowe
                ( mka Russ Smith - http://www.randomgang.com/ )
              • Teresa Kintner Gunnell
                ... Chandra - thank you for saying that! Personally, when I put on sari I immediately picture myself with sparkling brown eyes and flawless dark skin... and I
                Message 7 of 23 , Jun 5, 2001
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                  --- Chandranath <russ@...> wrote:
                  > (Plus, to the original poster, why in heaven's name would you _want_
                  > to
                  > explain your mundane appearance? I certainly don't bother, any more
                  > than
                  > I would expect -- as an example -- my Korean sister-in-law to explain
                  > herself if she wanted an Irish persona.)

                  Chandra - thank you for saying that! Personally, when I put on sari I
                  immediately picture myself with sparkling brown eyes and flawless dark
                  skin... and I avoid mirrors so I don't see the blue eyes and
                  chalk-white skin and blow the illusion. LOL! Seriously, it's like when
                  I role-play in D&D, or when I act - the new name and/or the new clothes
                  change my whole vision of myself, and attitude about myself. It's like
                  magic. No, it *is* magic. :-)

                  Tess... or I might just start signing Pratibha...


                  =====
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                  Visit my website - http://www.garnetpomegranate.com
                  Check out my auctions at eBay.com - search for seller 'tessler'

                  Co-Conspirator to make the world a better place...
                  http://www.HeroicStories.com

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                • Margaret Polson
                  ... I was sort of just thinking about recorded history , not earlier. The Aryans were certainly light skinned and may have well included some blue eye blonds
                  Message 8 of 23 , Jun 5, 2001
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                    > I agreed with everything you said except 'starting
                    > with Alexander.' :)

                    I was sort of just thinking about "recorded history",
                    not earlier. The Aryans were certainly light skinned
                    and may have well included some blue eye blonds for
                    all we know.

                    __________________________________________________
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                  • Ascalaphus' Advocate
                    ... Something to think about: There was a period of time that ended right around 300 CE when there was a lot of trade with Greece & Rome. It was extremely
                    Message 9 of 23 , Jun 5, 2001
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                      On Tue, 5 Jun 2001, Margaret Polson wrote:

                      >
                      >
                      > > I agreed with everything you said except 'starting
                      > > with Alexander.' :)
                      >
                      > I was sort of just thinking about "recorded history",
                      > not earlier. The Aryans were certainly light skinned
                      > and may have well included some blue eye blonds for
                      > all we know.

                      Something to think about: There was a period of time that ended right
                      around 300 CE when there was a lot of trade with Greece & Rome. It was
                      extremely fashionable in some Indian kingdoms to have "Warrior
                      Women" guards from Greece in one's palace. One could theorize that at
                      least a few of these women "mingled" with the locals and passed on some
                      lighter-skinned genes.


                      Bhairavi
                    • Jim and Andi
                      Okay, Okay!! I just liked the idea, I swear!! Hey, does anyone have Armies of the Mughals by Irvin? I m wondering if I should buy it. Madrun, who may soon be
                      Message 10 of 23 , Jun 5, 2001
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                        Okay, Okay!! I just liked the idea, I swear!!
                        Hey, does anyone have "Armies of the Mughals" by Irvin? I'm wondering if I
                        should buy it.

                        Madrun, who may soon be Medha, though it seems to me that if one is going to
                        have a Hindi name, one should make it as long and difficult to pronounce as
                        possible, just to make the heralds twitch. (My hubby in particular) Hmmm,
                        maybe that's why so many people do Welsh...*S*
                        PS- Hey Chandra could you re-post that list of Hindi honorifics? I can't
                        find it...

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Ascalaphus' Advocate [mailto:baital@...]
                        Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 11:21 AM
                        To: SCA_India@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [SCA_India] Re: persona story


                        On Tue, 5 Jun 2001, Margaret Polson wrote:

                        >
                        >
                        > > I agreed with everything you said except 'starting
                        > > with Alexander.' :)
                        >
                        > I was sort of just thinking about "recorded history",
                        > not earlier. The Aryans were certainly light skinned
                        > and may have well included some blue eye blonds for
                        > all we know.

                        Something to think about: There was a period of time that ended right
                        around 300 CE when there was a lot of trade with Greece & Rome. It was
                        extremely fashionable in some Indian kingdoms to have "Warrior
                        Women" guards from Greece in one's palace. One could theorize that at
                        least a few of these women "mingled" with the locals and passed on some
                        lighter-skinned genes.


                        Bhairavi



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                      • Chandranath
                        ... Okay, so I took over two weeks to do something about this request. :) I got my ideas mostly from a friend of mine of Indian birth. I make no particular
                        Message 11 of 23 , Jun 28, 2001
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                          > PS- Hey Chandra could you re-post that list of Hindi honorifics? I can't
                          > find it...

                          Okay, so I took over two weeks to do something about this request. :)

                          I got my ideas mostly from a friend of mine of Indian birth. I make no
                          particular guarantees at this second about periodness. I haven't been
                          on this angle of research for quite some time.

                          Anyway...

                          Rajan for king works. He suggests Rani instead of Rajni for queen.
                          Kumarah and Rajaputri work for him as specified in the heraldic guide.
                          Svamin/Svamini are what we usually say as "Swami" stateside; it sounds
                          good upon analysis for a Master. (Better than "rishi" or "guru".)

                          Kshatra is Kshatriyah and it's a caste. Knight? Doesn't really fit well.
                          Arya is a peculiar choice for Lord as a title -- it just means someone of
                          non-Shudra (thus, higher three caste) birth. He gave me the idea of "Sri"
                          (and "Srimathi") for lord and lady. "Shri" is a reasonable Anglicized
                          spelling as well -- I use it because "Sri" looks like a typo for "Sir" --
                          very bad.

                          And that's about what I came up with at the time. Anyone want to pick it
                          up and run with it?

                          Chandra

                          --
                          Shri Chandranath, Cadet to Don Timothy, Pursuivant Extraordinaire
                          Northern Regional Virtual Scribe
                          Captain of the Plumes of the Shire of Mooneschadowe
                          ( mka Russ Smith - http://www.randomgang.com/ )
                        • Rob & Laurie Gage
                          He gave me the idea of Sri (and Srimathi ) for lord and lady. Shri is a reasonable Anglicized spelling as well -- I use it because Sri looks like a
                          Message 12 of 23 , Jun 29, 2001
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                            He gave me the idea of "Sri"
                            (and "Srimathi") for lord and lady. "Shri" is a reasonable Anglicized
                            spelling as well -- I use it because "Sri" looks like a typo for "Sir" --
                            very bad.

                            in everything i've read 'sri' or 'shri' also carried the conotation of
                            'holy'. might be awkward.

                            i have an email aquaintance in Nagpur who addresses me as Robertji. is
                            the 'ji' honorific period? if it is i think it would be more appropriate
                            for 'lord'. i believe the feminine is 'chi'.

                            rob
                          • beth@pir.net
                            Neat stuff! I know when I went to Indian temples they were all Sri . So that the temple to Vishnu Ranganatha became Sri
                            Message 13 of 23 , Jun 29, 2001
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                              Neat stuff!

                              I know when I went to Indian temples they were all "Sri <definitive
                              temple name>". So that the temple to Vishnu Ranganatha became "Sri
                              Ranganatha". I suppose that doesn't help much. Holy Ranganatha and
                              Lord Ranganatha both make sense as the names for a site of a temple to
                              Vishnu Ranganatha. I've never heard it in association with a human
                              mode of address, though. But that just may mean I haven't been paying
                              enough attention. :)

                              Instead of Kshatriyah for a Knight do we have anything for something
                              like warrior-hero? A Kshatriyah is a part of that caste no matter
                              what they do, but a recognized hero earns the title. I know that
                              knightly titles are handed down as well, but somehow the analogy just
                              seems off.

                              I suppose we're just out of luck for analogies for Dukes and Counts
                              and their female counterparts?

                              -Lakshmi

                              --- In SCA_India@y..., Rob & Laurie Gage <randl@b...> wrote:
                              > He gave me the idea of "Sri"
                              > (and "Srimathi") for lord and lady. "Shri" is a reasonable
                              Anglicized
                              > spelling as well -- I use it because "Sri" looks like a typo for
                              "Sir" --
                              > very bad.
                              >
                              > in everything i've read 'sri' or 'shri' also carried the conotation
                              of
                              > 'holy'. might be awkward.
                              >
                              > i have an email aquaintance in Nagpur who addresses me as Robertji.
                              is
                              > the 'ji' honorific period? if it is i think it would be more
                              appropriate
                              > for 'lord'. i believe the feminine is 'chi'.
                              >
                              > rob
                            • Ascalaphus
                              ... Hmmm...The first thing that pops to mind that makes me question Sri as a title is Sri Lanka . From the OTL
                              Message 14 of 23 , Jul 3, 2001
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                                On Fri, 29 Jun 2001 beth@... wrote:

                                > I know when I went to Indian temples they were all "Sri <definitive
                                > temple name>". So that the temple to Vishnu Ranganatha became "Sri
                                > Ranganatha". I suppose that doesn't help much. Holy Ranganatha and
                                > Lord Ranganatha both make sense as the names for a site of a temple to
                                > Vishnu Ranganatha. I've never heard it in association with a human
                                > mode of address, though. But that just may mean I haven't been paying
                                > enough attention. :)

                                Hmmm...The first thing that pops to mind that makes me question 'Sri' as a
                                title is 'Sri Lanka'.

                                From the OTL
                                (http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/indologie/tamil/otl_search.html):
                                SRI 1. Laks2mi1; 2. wealth; 3. felicity; 4. beauth; 5. a title of respect
                                prefixed to the names of deities, eminent persons, sacred place and thing

                                I'm pretty sure the Tamil & Sanskrit words are identical.

                                I also have only seen it used for a person when it's been applied to a
                                religious figure (Sri Aurobindo and Sri Sathya Sai Baba are two of the
                                first who come up in a google search)...almost like a pre-saintly title.

                                But it's a tough call. Religion is wound so tightly into the language (and
                                other aspects of Indian culture) that it's confusing to determine what
                                would be appropriate for secular use.


                                Bhairavi
                              • Rob & Laurie Gage
                                I also have only seen it used for a person when it s been applied to a religious figure (Sri Aurobindo and Sri Sathya Sai Baba are two of the first who come up
                                Message 15 of 23 , Jul 3, 2001
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                                  I also have only seen it used for a person when it's been applied to a
                                  religious figure (Sri Aurobindo and Sri Sathya Sai Baba are two of the
                                  first who come up in a google search)...almost like a pre-saintly title.
                                  -----------------

                                  just read "Autobiography of a Yogi" by Paramahansa Yogananda. one of his
                                  gurus has three 'Sri's before his name (Sri Sri Sri). he must have been
                                  something!
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