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  • Chandranath
    (This is my third effort to get the list address correct when sending this. Sigh!) More fun with titles. I spoke with a friend of mine of Indian birth (and
    Message 1 of 14 , Sep 4, 2000
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      (This is my third effort to get the list address correct when sending this.
      Sigh!)

      More fun with titles. I spoke with a friend of mine of Indian birth (and
      halting Sanskrit, but he says he'll look around for more help) who gave me
      these observations:

      Rajan for King is good. Kumarah and Rajaputri he also thought were fine. He
      prefers "Rani" to "Rajni" for Queen.

      Svamin/Svamini (that is, Swami) also seem pretty appropriate after talking to
      him about the implications; preferable to alternatives like rishi or guru.

      Ksatriyah is the same as kshatra. It means "member of warrior caste". Not
      really desirable for knight.

      He agreed that arya seemed like an odd choice. He gave me the idea of "Sri"
      (and "Srimathi") and noted the were a lot like "-san" for Japanese. Note that
      the latter is used in the handbook for lord and lady. I am trying this on for
      size, more or less. Thoughts?

      Anyway, that's it for now. A little progress. I gave him the Arabian titles
      which seem solid in case that helped. I will also try and use those and my
      copies of the Ain-i-Akbari and Akbar-nama to see what I can come up with when
      I get a few minutes.

      Chandra

      --
      Sri Chandranath, Cadet to Don Timothy
      Musician in the King's Players
      Deputy Regional Herald, Northern Ansteorra
      Rapier Marshal and Captain of the Plumes of the Shire of Mooneschadowe
    • wrcrater
      I was wondering if anyone knew or knew where to get the Hindi translations for all of the titles used in the society... King, Queen, Prince, Princess, Duke,
      Message 2 of 14 , Aug 10, 2005
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        I was wondering if anyone knew or knew where to get the Hindi
        translations for all of the titles used in the society...
        King, Queen, Prince, Princess, Duke, Duchess, Count, Countess, Baron,
        Baroness, Honorable Lord, Honorable Lady, Lord, Lady, and anything else
        that I have forgotten. Thank you.
      • Jennifer Strobel
        There is a listing of alternate titles available for folks in the SCA. I do not think that all of the names are entirely correct (the Dutch titles are wrong
        Message 3 of 14 , Aug 11, 2005
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          There is a listing of "alternate titles" available for folks in the SCA.
          I do not think that all of the names are entirely correct (the Dutch
          titles are wrong in a couple of places), and they do not include "The
          Honourable Lord/Lady" in the options.

          The URL is: http://www.sca.org/heraldry/titles.html

          It's a start, though, and if there's any way to correct the listing, I
          think that the College of Heralds would be appreciative.

          A question of my own: What language was spoken in the North? Hindi?
          Something else?

          Khivi

          "Do not dismiss the dish saying that it is just, simply food. The blessed thing is an entire civilization in itself!"
          - Abdulhak Sinasi


          On Wed, 10 Aug 2005, wrcrater wrote:

          > I was wondering if anyone knew or knew where to get the Hindi
          > translations for all of the titles used in the society...
          > King, Queen, Prince, Princess, Duke, Duchess, Count, Countess, Baron,
          > Baroness, Honorable Lord, Honorable Lady, Lord, Lady, and anything else
          > that I have forgotten. Thank you.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > SCA_India Mailing List Info:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA_India
          > or
          > List owner: SCA_India-owner@yahoogroups.com
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Margaret Polson
          ... It is wrong in several key areas (knight for one). The other problem is (as always in India) it depends on time/place/religion. Also, many of the titles
          Message 4 of 14 , Aug 11, 2005
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            > The URL is: http://www.sca.org/heraldry/titles.html
            >
            > It's a start, though, and if there's any way to
            > correct the listing, I
            > think that the College of Heralds would be
            > appreciative.

            It is wrong in several key areas (knight for one).
            The other problem is (as always in India) it depends
            on time/place/religion. Also, many of the titles do
            not have coresponding concept in many areas of India.


            >
            > A question of my own: What language was spoken in
            > the North? Hindi?
            > Something else?

            See above. Different areas of the north spoke
            different languages. Hindi is the modern derivation
            of one of them.


            Meenakskhi



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          • Jennifer Strobel
            ... That would make sense. I also know that the titles that are incorrect for Dutch are from misunderstandings of how words were used poetically vs how words
            Message 5 of 14 , Aug 11, 2005
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              On Thu, 11 Aug 2005, Margaret Polson wrote:

              >
              > > The URL is: http://www.sca.org/heraldry/titles.html
              > >
              > > It's a start, though, and if there's any way to
              > > correct the listing, I
              > > think that the College of Heralds would be
              > > appreciative.
              >
              > It is wrong in several key areas (knight for one).
              > The other problem is (as always in India) it depends
              > on time/place/religion. Also, many of the titles do
              > not have coresponding concept in many areas of India.

              That would make sense. I also know that the titles that are incorrect for
              Dutch are from misunderstandings of how words were used poetically vs how
              words were used in speech (example: the words listed for Lord/Lady in
              Dutch would only have been used in poetry, the actual words that are used
              for the titles of Lord and Lady are Vrouwe and Heer).

              As more and more people with a working comprehension of languages join the
              SCA i'm hoping that they will provide corrections so that we can actually
              use the proper titles for our time/place instead of having to conform to
              the standard of using English.

              > > A question of my own: What language was spoken in
              > > the North? Hindi?
              > > Something else?
              >
              > See above. Different areas of the north spoke
              > different languages. Hindi is the modern derivation
              > of one of them.

              Drat! That's what I was afraid the answer would be. Well, easy answers
              don't lead me to research, so i'll have to dig deeper :-)

              Thank you,

              Khivi
            • wrcrater
              What I was trying to gather is how I should address my self while being period correct. I doubt they walked around calling themselves Lords and Ladies in 13th
              Message 6 of 14 , Aug 11, 2005
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                What I was trying to gather is how I should address my self while
                being period correct. I doubt they walked around calling themselves
                Lords and Ladies in 13th century Rajasthan. I looked at the heraldry
                website and saw the sanskrit titles. Is this what I should use?


                --- In SCA_India@yahoogroups.com, Jennifer Strobel <jstrobel@p...>
                wrote:
                > On Thu, 11 Aug 2005, Margaret Polson wrote:
                >
                > >
                > > > The URL is: http://www.sca.org/heraldry/titles.html
                > > >
                > > > It's a start, though, and if there's any way to
                > > > correct the listing, I
                > > > think that the College of Heralds would be
                > > > appreciative.
                > >
                > > It is wrong in several key areas (knight for one).
                > > The other problem is (as always in India) it depends
                > > on time/place/religion. Also, many of the titles do
                > > not have coresponding concept in many areas of India.
                >
                > That would make sense. I also know that the titles that are
                incorrect for
                > Dutch are from misunderstandings of how words were used poetically
                vs how
                > words were used in speech (example: the words listed for Lord/Lady
                in
                > Dutch would only have been used in poetry, the actual words that
                are used
                > for the titles of Lord and Lady are Vrouwe and Heer).
                >
                > As more and more people with a working comprehension of languages
                join the
                > SCA i'm hoping that they will provide corrections so that we can
                actually
                > use the proper titles for our time/place instead of having to
                conform to
                > the standard of using English.
                >
                > > > A question of my own: What language was spoken in
                > > > the North? Hindi?
                > > > Something else?
                > >
                > > See above. Different areas of the north spoke
                > > different languages. Hindi is the modern derivation
                > > of one of them.
                >
                > Drat! That's what I was afraid the answer would be. Well, easy
                answers
                > don't lead me to research, so i'll have to dig deeper :-)
                >
                > Thank you,
                >
                > Khivi
              • Margaret Polson
                ... My personal take it that my title did not come from an Indian court, therefore I shoud use the form of address that the court who gave it to me uses, as
                Message 7 of 14 , Aug 11, 2005
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                  > What I was trying to gather is how I should address
                  > my self while
                  > being period correct. I doubt they walked around
                  > calling themselves
                  > Lords and Ladies in 13th century Rajasthan. I
                  > looked at the heraldry
                  > website and saw the sanskrit titles. Is this what I
                  > should use?

                  My personal take it that my title did not come from an
                  Indian court, therefore I shoud use the form of
                  address that the court who gave it to me uses, as that
                  is the proper form of address for that title.

                  Part of this does have to do with the fact that there
                  really does not appear to be any Indian equivalent of
                  Honorable Lady. Another part is it reduces confusion.


                  Meenakshi



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                • Jennifer Strobel
                  Well, what you re dealing with is the difference between actually correct and SCA Correct . In the SCA we are functioning in a Western European model, so we
                  Message 8 of 14 , Aug 11, 2005
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                    Well, what you're dealing with is the difference between actually correct
                    and "SCA Correct". In the SCA we are functioning in a Western European
                    model, so we are called Lord/Lady, etc based on the SCA award(s) that we
                    have.

                    If you have the title in the SCA, then use the Sanskrit title to identify
                    yourself in that structure. IMO, it adds to at least the aesthetics of
                    identifying yourself in the proper place and time. Because, well,
                    Adhipati Khivi sounds so much better than "Lady Khivi".

                    The other option is to not use a title at all. This is perfectly okay and
                    is more realistic to your persona. There is no requirement to use your
                    title in the SCA.

                    I hope that my response helps you make a decision.

                    Khivi

                    "Do not dismiss the dish saying that it is just, simply food. The blessed thing is an entire civilization in itself!"
                    - Abdulhak Sinasi


                    On Thu, 11 Aug 2005, wrcrater wrote:

                    > What I was trying to gather is how I should address my self while
                    > being period correct. I doubt they walked around calling themselves
                    > Lords and Ladies in 13th century Rajasthan. I looked at the heraldry
                    > website and saw the sanskrit titles. Is this what I should use?
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In SCA_India@yahoogroups.com, Jennifer Strobel <jstrobel@p...>
                    > wrote:
                    > > On Thu, 11 Aug 2005, Margaret Polson wrote:
                    > >
                    > > >
                    > > > > The URL is: http://www.sca.org/heraldry/titles.html
                    > > > >
                    > > > > It's a start, though, and if there's any way to
                    > > > > correct the listing, I
                    > > > > think that the College of Heralds would be
                    > > > > appreciative.
                    > > >
                    > > > It is wrong in several key areas (knight for one).
                    > > > The other problem is (as always in India) it depends
                    > > > on time/place/religion. Also, many of the titles do
                    > > > not have coresponding concept in many areas of India.
                    > >
                    > > That would make sense. I also know that the titles that are
                    > incorrect for
                    > > Dutch are from misunderstandings of how words were used poetically
                    > vs how
                    > > words were used in speech (example: the words listed for Lord/Lady
                    > in
                    > > Dutch would only have been used in poetry, the actual words that
                    > are used
                    > > for the titles of Lord and Lady are Vrouwe and Heer).
                    > >
                    > > As more and more people with a working comprehension of languages
                    > join the
                    > > SCA i'm hoping that they will provide corrections so that we can
                    > actually
                    > > use the proper titles for our time/place instead of having to
                    > conform to
                    > > the standard of using English.
                    > >
                    > > > > A question of my own: What language was spoken in
                    > > > > the North? Hindi?
                    > > > > Something else?
                    > > >
                    > > > See above. Different areas of the north spoke
                    > > > different languages. Hindi is the modern derivation
                    > > > of one of them.
                    > >
                    > > Drat! That's what I was afraid the answer would be. Well, easy
                    > answers
                    > > don't lead me to research, so i'll have to dig deeper :-)
                    > >
                    > > Thank you,
                    > >
                    > > Khivi
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > SCA_India Mailing List Info:
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA_India
                    > or
                    > List owner: SCA_India-owner@yahoogroups.com
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Katherine Throckmorton
                    ... The Indian alternate titles list is pretty much useless and needs to be revised in th worst way. ... If anyone wants to give it a shot at a alternate
                    Message 9 of 14 , Aug 11, 2005
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                      Khivi wrote:
                      >
                      > The URL is: http://www.sca.org/heraldry/titles.html
                      >

                      The Indian alternate titles list is pretty much useless and needs to be revised in th worst way.

                      > It's a start, though, and if there's any way to correct the listing, I
                      > think that the College of Heralds would be appreciative.

                      If anyone wants to give it a shot at a alternate titles list (since doing it right for India would require multiple lists) Laurel would be thrilled beyond belief. The early attempts were well meaning, but the execution was not always the best. I have vauge plans of doing a Mughal alternate titles list, but that is in the future.

                      -Asma

                      Every weekend, we gather hundreds of people together, none of whom have had enough sleep.
                      -Robin's Unified Theory of SCA Dynamics


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                    • LaRisa Allen
                      ... I d be willing to tackle the Tamil titles section, but...who besides me really wants them anyway? :P Bhairavi (who mostly doesn t use her title) --
                      Message 10 of 14 , Aug 11, 2005
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                        > If anyone wants to give it a shot at a alternate titles list (since doing
                        > it right for India would require multiple lists) Laurel would be thrilled
                        > beyond belief. The early attempts were well meaning, but the execution was
                        > not always the best. I have vauge plans of doing a Mughal alternate titles
                        > list, but that is in the future.

                        I'd be willing to tackle the Tamil titles section, but...who besides
                        me really wants them anyway? :P

                        Bhairavi (who mostly doesn't use her title)

                        --
                        http://www.pir.net/~baital/sca/
                      • Thomas Knight
                        Wowza.Those Turkish titles are UUUUUGLY. Did no one think to realise that obviously nonperiod rough transilterations into Turkish using the latin alphabet of
                        Message 11 of 14 , Aug 13, 2005
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                          Wowza.Those Turkish titles are UUUUUGLY. Did no one think to realise that obviously nonperiod rough transilterations into Turkish using the latin alphabet of European titles would be wrong? Prens? Prenses? Duk? come on people. I thought heralds were supposed to be sticklers. If Pasha is the appropriate word for viscount, why bother including  the european title written in bad phonetics? Also, considering that every position within the Ottoman government had a disctinct title that pretty much outlined what they do, a lot more elaborate research would be needed.
                           
                          I know a rant should be accompanied by some sort of backing up source, and Ive made the mistake before of referring to having personal friends who were experts on the subject, but I'm serious. Straight from the mouth of Mehmed Mustafoglu, Turkish North Cypriot Consul General to the United States. He let me borrow his extensive library on Ottoman customs and told me anything he knew to supplement the knowledge.
                           
                          Najibullah ibn'Abdulhameed Shihabullah(aeybe)

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                        • Margaret Polson
                          ... Considering who badly thee hosed up European titles at first, why would anyone be surprised (a knight being higher ranking than a Lord....????) My
                          Message 12 of 14 , Aug 13, 2005
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                            > Prenses? Duk? come on people. I thought heralds were
                            > supposed to be sticklers.

                            Considering who badly thee hosed up European titles at
                            first, why would anyone be surprised (a knight being
                            higher ranking than a Lord....????)

                            My understanding the alternate titles were put
                            together without much research and they would love
                            people to give them more correct information.

                            Meenakshi



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                          • Katherine Throckmorton
                            ... At the time that the alternate titles lists were created there was a great deal of pressure on Laurel from the populace and BoD and on the COA from Laurel
                            Message 13 of 14 , Aug 13, 2005
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                              Najibullah ibn'Abdulhameed Shihabullah wrote:


                              >
                              > Wowza.Those Turkish titles are UUUUUGLY. Did no one think to
                              > realise that obviously nonperiod rough transilterations into
                              > Turkish using the latin alphabet of European titles would be wrong?
                              > Prens? Prenses? Duk? come on people. I thought heralds were
                              > supposed to be sticklers.


                              At the time that the alternate titles lists were created there was a great deal of pressure on Laurel from the populace and BoD and on the COA from Laurel to come up with alternate titles for every possible culture. The results, unsurpirsingly, range from pretty good to amazlingly awful. Some, like the Welsh list, have been fixed. Others, like the Turkish list, are waiting for someone to take on the job.

                              >Also, considering that every position within the Ottoman
                              > government had a disctinct title that pretty much outlined what
                              > they do, a lot more elaborate research would be needed.
                              >

                              And you hit upon the reason why so many title lists have been neglected. Fixing the list for any time and culture is a major undertaking, and even then you have to deal with the knowledge that the list that you create probobly only really works for a fairly narrow time period. It is a generally accepted fact among heralds that most of the alternate title lists need fixing. And then we look at our existing work, family and SCA commitments, and decide that there are more pressing concerns :(

                              I say this to anyone who has the time and inclination-please send in a revised alternate titles list. Laurel will thank you, the heralds with thank you, and everyone who can use the titles will be eternally in your debt.

                              -Asma


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                            • marcus findlay-arthur
                              This isn t a firm commitment but I will seriously consider helping as I can, over the next couple of years with the Indian and Turkish titles. (Will be moving
                              Message 14 of 14 , Aug 14, 2005
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                                This isn't a firm commitment but I will seriously consider helping as I can, over the next couple of years with the Indian and Turkish titles. (Will be moving closer to Turkey soon and intend to shop for textiles in Istambul. Further I have good contacts there who may be inclined to help this kind of research.) I will need some guidelines such as periods to start with and basic details like dynasty, ruler's names etc to expedite some of the more pressing periods within the SCA time-frame.
                                 
                                I must warn the List tho' that the Indian area of titles is fairly dodgy as far as historic confirmation goes vs clear understanding of the position and a lot of Victorian Raj influence crept in circa the 1870's and muddled a lot of classifications
                                 
                                Mangal

                                I say this to anyone who has the time and inclination-please send in a revised alternate titles list.  Laurel will thank you, the heralds with thank you, and everyone who can use the titles will be eternally in your debt.

                                -Asma


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