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Re: [SCA_BARDS] Origins of Songs?

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  • fridrikr@redsuspenders.com
    ... I agree with Lord Alden. Most of what is labelled traditional is within the past 75 to 150 years. Very little secular vernacular music exists from
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 1, 2002
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      On Wed, 31 Jul 2002 18:26:31 -0500 "Paul DeLisle" wrote:

      > I have a small collection of Steeleye Span, Oyster Band, and
      > other Irish music, much of which is listed as "traditional".
      > However, I am well aware that "traditional" does not necessarily
      > mean "medieval". I love singing them, though, and would love to
      > sing some of them at events. Because I don't want to be
      > blatantly un-period, I would like to know which (if any) of these
      > songs date back to our period (or slightly after). If anyone
      > knows
      > of any songs done by relatively popular bands (Irish or
      > otherwise) that are adaptations of period songs, could you
      > please let me know which they are? I know this might be too big
      > a question to answer, but any links in the right direction would
      > be
      > really helpful. I have absolutely no idea where to start looking!
      >
      > Please either post on this list or email me at
      > j.golick@... .
      > Thanks!
      > Katherine Ashwoode,
      > mka: Julie
      >

      I agree with Lord Alden. Most of what is labelled traditional is within
      the past 75 to 150 years. Very little secular vernacular music exists from
      period, almost none from early period, esp. from my interest areas (Norse
      12th - 13th centuries). Sigh.

      Fridrikr siginn landvarnarmadr

      O praeclarum custodem ovium Normannorum!
      Quien verdad ama nunca olvida
      Famis gustarum, epula vorare
    • SD
      ... From: To: Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 6:53 AM Subject: Re: [SCA_BARDS] Origins of Songs? ...
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 1, 2002
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        ----- Original Message -----
        From: <fridrikr@...>
        To: <SCA_BARDS@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 6:53 AM
        Subject: Re: [SCA_BARDS] Origins of Songs?


        > Most of what is labelled traditional is within
        > the past 75 to 150 years. Very little secular vernacular music exists
        from
        > period, almost none from early period, esp. from my interest areas (Norse
        > 12th - 13th centuries). Sigh.

        Ummm...a word? There are some very good resources in the Scottish Gaelic
        tradition that are period--of course, they're in Gaelic, but that can be
        overcome. Duncan Ban Macintyre, if I'm remembering correctly, was within
        period as were the songs, "Griogal Chridhe" and "Cumha MhicChriomain".
        There are several others, but the titles are not coming to mind right off
        the top this morning.

        Ódhrán an Clàrsair
      • briana-k@shaw.ca
        As I said in an earlier post, just because it isn t in English doesn t mean it isn t a period theme. Well, the key is that there was a period form of
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 1, 2002
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          As I said in an earlier post, just because it isn't in English doesn't
          mean it isn't a period theme. Well, the key is that there was a period
          form of preserving and passing on the tunes to pieces that didn't use a
          standard notation: it was oral originally, but there are samples of it
          in the strangest of places. It's a pipe tablature that is still used,
          unchanged, today, called cainterreacht, colloquially called the diddly-
          dees. It's where the vast majority of nonsense choruses come from.

          A very large secular repertoire of period pipe tunes and associated
          lyrics is gathered in the Skene manuscript, and I'm rather awaiting my
          copy of it from an itinerant harper living in Toronto. The English-
          speaking bias towards English songs is rather disturbing considering
          how much great secular stuff is out there, in other languages.
          Considering that English is a relatively new language, and latin,
          French, and both Germanic and Celtic language family members were
          spoken on British soil as the common speech... that Anglo-centric
          mindset seems a bit counter productive.

          I sympathise with the Norse personas: if you want music there's very
          little to work with in their particular area of the period, but there
          is a ton of poetry and thick storytelling, so you rather take the good
          with the bad.


          Briana nic h'Eusaidh
          Ban-filidhe n'An Tir


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: SD <fingolfin@...>
          Date: Thursday, August 1, 2002 6:13 am
          Subject: Re: [SCA_BARDS] Origins of Songs?

          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: <fridrikr@...>
          > To: <SCA_BARDS@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 6:53 AM
          > Subject: Re: [SCA_BARDS] Origins of Songs?
          >
          >
          > > Most of what is labelled traditional is within
          > > the past 75 to 150 years. Very little secular vernacular music
          > existsfrom
          > > period, almost none from early period, esp. from my interest
          > areas (Norse
          > > 12th - 13th centuries). Sigh.
          >
          > Ummm...a word? There are some very good resources in the Scottish
          > Gaelictradition that are period--of course, they're in Gaelic, but
          > that can be
          > overcome. Duncan Ban Macintyre, if I'm remembering correctly, was
          > withinperiod as were the songs, "Griogal Chridhe" and "Cumha
          > MhicChriomain".There are several others, but the titles are not
          > coming to mind right off
          > the top this morning.
          >
          > Ódhrán an Clàrsair
          >
          >
          > Community email addresses:
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          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
          >
        • Marc Gunn, Bard
          ... there are at ... modern, ... if anyone ... happy girl. Finding dates for songs is tough as hell. I tried with a few, but most of the Celtic traditional
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 1, 2002
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            > These are the ones I can think of at the moment, and I know
            there are at
            > least a few I'm forgetting. I'm sure some of them are completely
            modern,
            > and even more don't date back more than two hundred years, but
            if anyone
            > knows if any of them do date back to scadian period, I'd be a
            happy girl.

            Finding dates for songs is tough as hell. I tried with a few, but
            most of the Celtic traditional songs I've seen seem to be around
            200 years old. Check out Cantaria for a semi-decent listing.
            http://www.chivalry.com/cantaria/

            My site http://www.thebards.net/music/ does not list any dates, but
            there is music to go with the songs.

            ------------------------------------------------------------
            MARC GUNN, BARD Brobdingnagian Bards
            The Original Celtic Renaissance. Music of Ireland and Scotland.

            http://www.thebards.net <--about
            http://mp3.com/thebards?em <--listen
            http://www.celticmusic.org <--buy

            http://www.bardscrier.com <--music promo tips
            http://www.celticmp3s.com <--celtic cd & mp3 giveaway
          • SD
            ... From: To: Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 10:40 AM Subject: Re: [SCA_BARDS] Origins of Songs? ... *nods
            Message 5 of 25 , Aug 1, 2002
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              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <briana-k@...>
              To: <SCA_BARDS@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 10:40 AM
              Subject: Re: [SCA_BARDS] Origins of Songs?



              > As I said in an earlier post, just because it isn't in English doesn't
              > mean it isn't a period theme. Well, the key is that there was a period
              > form of preserving and passing on the tunes to pieces that didn't use a
              > standard notation: it was oral originally, but there are samples of it
              > in the strangest of places. It's a pipe tablature that is still used,
              > unchanged, today, called cainterreacht, colloquially called the diddly-
              > dees. It's where the vast majority of nonsense choruses come from.

              *nods vigorously* Canntaireachd is a large part of the reason why Scots
              still have pipe tunes to play. It's more than "diddly-dees" though. Each
              syllable represents a particular note and fingering combination on the
              Highland Pipes. I've got a chart that details all the different syllables
              and their fingerings and associations. It's cool. It actually sounds like
              the pipes.

              > A very large secular repertoire of period pipe tunes and associated
              > lyrics is gathered in the Skene manuscript, and I'm rather awaiting my >
              copy of it from an itinerant harper living in Toronto. The English-
              > speaking bias towards English songs is rather disturbing considering
              > how much great secular stuff is out there, in other languages.
              > Considering that English is a relatively new language, and latin,
              > French, and both Germanic and Celtic language family members were
              > spoken on British soil as the common speech... that Anglo-centric
              > mindset seems a bit counter productive.

              Amen? :) When you get a copy of that Skene manuscript, let me know. I'd
              pay you to give me where you got it.

              Ódhrán an Clàrsair
            • briana-k@shaw.ca
              Brill! I ll trade you! Trad pipers are rare, and I have no way to learn the full Cainterreachd... so, when i get my Skene MS I ll photocopy it off and send it
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 1, 2002
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                Brill!

                I'll trade you! Trad pipers are rare, and I have no way to learn the
                full Cainterreachd... so, when i get my Skene MS I'll photocopy it off
                and send it to you and you can send me the chart you have, 'kay?

                This is me, super-excited! :)

                I am getting it from a bizarre and brilliant man who plays the harp for
                a living, a quirky older man born and raised in Cape Breton who busks
                for a living (having given up a profession he despised to do so. He has
                lived very close to the edge, and I have no clue where he found this
                thing, but he's been promising it to me for a while: we just have to
                connect up at the right time and place.

                Slan leat!

                Briana

                >It's a pipe tablature that is still
                > used, unchanged, today, called cainterreacht, colloquially called
                > the diddly-
                > > dees. It's where the vast majority of nonsense choruses come from.
                >
                > *nods vigorously* I've got a chart that details all the different
                > syllablesand their fingerings and associations. It's cool. It
                > actually sounds like
                > the pipes.
                >
                > > A very large secular repertoire of period pipe tunes and associated
                > > lyrics is gathered in the Skene manuscript, and I'm awaiting my
                copy of it from an itinerant harper living in Toronto. > Amen? :) When
                you get a copy of that Skene manuscript, let me
                > know. I'd
                > pay you to give me where you got it.
                >
                > Ódhrán an Clàrsair
                >
              • Greg Lindahl
                ... Here s a message I posted to the minstrel mailing list a few years ago. -- Gregory Blount From: Greg Lindahl lindahl@pbm.com Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 1, 2002
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                  On Thu, Aug 01, 2002 at 08:13:01AM -0500, SD wrote:

                  > Ummm...a word? There are some very good resources in the Scottish Gaelic
                  > tradition that are period--of course, they're in Gaelic, but that can be
                  > overcome. Duncan Ban Macintyre, if I'm remembering correctly, was within
                  > period as were the songs, "Griogal Chridhe" and "Cumha MhicChriomain".
                  > There are several others, but the titles are not coming to mind right off
                  > the top this morning.

                  Here's a message I posted to the minstrel mailing list a few years
                  ago.

                  -- Gregory Blount

                  From: Greg Lindahl lindahl@...
                  Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 16:04:06 -0400 (EDT)

                  The evidence for Griogal Cridhe (Beloved Gregor) being actually
                  written in 1570 is quite weak; there is apparently no evidence of it
                  being written earlier than 1813 other than that it is about an event
                  in 1570.

                  I looked in _The Companion to Gaelic Scotland_ under "folksong,
                  early", which lead me to a journal named _Scottish Gaelic Studies_,
                  volume 8 (1955), p. 11-13, an article written by D. S. Thompson.
                  The earliest written version of this song is 1813. There was also a
                  folk version collected in the "late 19th century". The article
                  contains citations if anyone wants to chase it further. The notion
                  that the song wasn't necessarily written immediately after the event
                  has apparently been argued for more than 100 years.

                  -- gb
                • Greg Lindahl
                  ... The web citation I gave earlier has a bit of a list: it s more than 5 whose words are supposedly period, but the tunes are a much harder matter.
                  Message 8 of 25 , Aug 1, 2002
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                    On Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 07:10:55PM -0700, Susanna Rodriguez wrote:

                    > Sorry, I should have been more clear. To my knowledge, the child
                    > ballads are almost all OOP. (I think there are like 5 that are
                    > period).

                    The web citation I gave earlier has a bit of a list: it's more than 5
                    whose words are supposedly period, but the tunes are a much harder
                    matter.

                    http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/ballads/

                    -- Gregory Blount
                  • SD
                    ... From: To: Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 1:14 PM Subject: Re: [SCA_BARDS] Origins of Songs? ... and send it
                    Message 9 of 25 , Aug 2, 2002
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                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: <briana-k@...>
                      To: <SCA_BARDS@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 1:14 PM
                      Subject: Re: [SCA_BARDS] Origins of Songs?


                      > Brill!
                      >
                      > I'll trade you! Trad pipers are rare, and I have no way to learn the
                      > full Cainterreachd... so, when i get my Skene MS I'll photocopy it off >
                      and send it to you and you can send me the chart you have, 'kay?

                      *nods* Cool. Can do.

                      > This is me, super-excited! :)

                      *nods* I see that. :)

                      > I am getting it from a bizarre and brilliant man who plays the harp for
                      > a living, a quirky older man born and raised in Cape Breton who busks
                      > for a living (having given up a profession he despised to do so. He has
                      > lived very close to the edge, and I have no clue where he found this
                      > thing, but he's been promising it to me for a while: we just have to
                      > connect up at the right time and place.
                      >
                      > Slan leat!
                      >
                      > Briana

                      Sounds cool. Tha mi'n dòchas am bi urrainn dhuibh ionnsachaidh 'n
                      Canntaireachd...

                      Mise le meas,

                      Ódhrán
                    • SD
                      I ve got _The Companion to Gaelic Scotland_ you refer to. I ll look up the references and see what I find. It may be a while, though, as it s a ways down my
                      Message 10 of 25 , Aug 2, 2002
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                        I've got _The Companion to Gaelic Scotland_ you refer to. I'll look up the
                        references and see what I find. It may be a while, though, as it's a ways
                        down my priority list.

                        Ó
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Greg Lindahl" <lindahl@...>
                        To: <SCA_BARDS@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 3:20 PM
                        Subject: Re: [SCA_BARDS] Origins of Songs?


                        > On Thu, Aug 01, 2002 at 08:13:01AM -0500, SD wrote:
                        >
                        > > Ummm...a word? There are some very good resources in the Scottish
                        Gaelic
                        > > tradition that are period--of course, they're in Gaelic, but that can be
                        > > overcome. Duncan Ban Macintyre, if I'm remembering correctly, was
                        within
                        > > period as were the songs, "Griogal Chridhe" and "Cumha MhicChriomain".
                        > > There are several others, but the titles are not coming to mind right
                        off
                        > > the top this morning.
                        >
                        > Here's a message I posted to the minstrel mailing list a few years
                        > ago.
                        >
                        > -- Gregory Blount
                        >
                        > From: Greg Lindahl lindahl@...
                        > Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 16:04:06 -0400 (EDT)
                        >
                        > The evidence for Griogal Cridhe (Beloved Gregor) being actually
                        > written in 1570 is quite weak; there is apparently no evidence of it
                        > being written earlier than 1813 other than that it is about an event
                        > in 1570.
                        >
                        > I looked in _The Companion to Gaelic Scotland_ under "folksong,
                        > early", which lead me to a journal named _Scottish Gaelic Studies_,
                        > volume 8 (1955), p. 11-13, an article written by D. S. Thompson.
                        > The earliest written version of this song is 1813. There was also a
                        > folk version collected in the "late 19th century". The article
                        > contains citations if anyone wants to chase it further. The notion
                        > that the song wasn't necessarily written immediately after the event
                        > has apparently been argued for more than 100 years.
                        >
                        > -- gb
                        >
                        > Community email addresses:
                        > Post message: SCA_BARDS@egroups.com
                        > Subscribe: SCA_BARDS-subscribe@egroups.com
                        > Unsubscribe: SCA_BARDS-unsubscribe@egroups.com
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                        >
                        > Shortcut URL to this page:
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                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Capitan Cervantes
                        Greetings all, An excelent group to check out is the Mediaeval Baebes. Almost everything they do is period (I think uot of the 4 alboms I have by them 2 or 3
                        Message 11 of 25 , Aug 2, 2002
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                          Greetings all,



                          An excelent group to check out is the Mediaeval
                          Baebes. Almost everything they do is period (I think
                          uot of the 4 alboms I have by them 2 or 3 songs are
                          17'th century) All songs come with lyrics in the
                          original language (Latin, Olde English, Welsh, Olde
                          French, and my favorite, 14'th crntury Castillian,
                          also several in Gaelic, Irish and scots), plus an
                          English translation. I use many of the songs, mostly
                          the Latin, and castillian, being a Portugese sea
                          capitan. But definately a good refrence point and they
                          tend to list the date the song was first published.



                          =====
                          Cervantes Luis Gabriel Ruis Savona Barcellos de Toledo
                          The Capitan

                          " Seriousnes is the only shelter of the shallow"

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                        • bighatlady
                          ... Well people have done a good job dating them for you. Instead of worrying about the date, I would ask - do they sound period? To know that you have to
                          Message 12 of 25 , Aug 2, 2002
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                            --- In SCA_BARDS@y..., "yourstruly" <j.golick@s...> wrote:
                            > Hi all,
                            >
                            > I have a small collection of Steeleye Span, Oyster Band, and
                            > other Irish music, much of which is listed as "traditional".
                            > However, I am well aware that "traditional" does not necessarily
                            > mean "medieval". I love singing them, though, and would love to
                            > sing some of them at events. Because I don't want to be
                            > blatantly un-period, I would like to know which (if any) of these
                            > songs date back to our period (or slightly after).
                            >
                            > Thanks!
                            > Katherine Ashwoode,
                            > mka: Julie

                            Well people have done a good job dating them for you. Instead of
                            worrying about the date, I would ask - do they sound period? To know
                            that you have to listen to period music to get the flavor of it.
                            Medieval Baebes are very listenable. There are many CD's out there to
                            sample. To my ear, which is certainly not perfectly attuned, things
                            firmly rooted in major keys do not sound period. Medieval and alot
                            of renaissance music does not use modern chord structure. Musically,
                            notes, phrases resolve differently than we are used to hearing. Songs
                            in minor keys fare better because they resemble the Dorian mode - a
                            medieval scale that sounds much like d minor. I don't know all your
                            songs but Scarborough Faire musically is pretty close. To some
                            people, it brings up images of Dustin Hoffman in the Graduate but I
                            think its a beautiful song and sounds in place in a medieval setting.
                          • wodeford
                            ... I have to beg to differ on this one. While many medieval pieces are written in modes that may sound unusual to modern listeners, minor keys do NOT
                            Message 13 of 25 , Aug 10, 2002
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                              --- In SCA_BARDS@y..., "bighatlady" <bighatlady@y...> wrote:
                              > To my ear, which is certainly not perfectly attuned, things
                              > firmly rooted in major keys do not sound period.

                              I have to beg to differ on this one. While many medieval pieces are
                              written in modes that may sound unusual to modern listeners, minor
                              keys do NOT necessarily equal medieval style.

                              As for period pieces "firmly rooted in major keys"
                              http://www.csupomona.edu/~jcclark/emusic/medieval.html contains midi
                              files of several medieval examples: "Sumer Is Icumen In," "Angelus ad
                              Virginem," "Cantiga 1", the first "Estampie", "Saltarello 3"
                              (aka "Saltarello la Regina") and a song from the "Jeu de Robin et
                              Marion." http://www.csupomona.edu/~jcclark/emusic/carol.html has
                              several medieval and Renaissance Christmas carols in major keys, such
                              as "Resonent in Laudibus," "Edi beo thu hevene quene," "Tempus ad est
                              floridum" ("Good King Wenceslaus") and "There is no rose of swych
                              vertu". That's ten and I'm not even warmed up yet: I haven't even
                              begun to touch on Renaissance examples!

                              Warning, shameless plug ahead: The only way to educate one's ears is
                              to keep listening. To that end, I'm teaching at the West Kingdom's
                              Fall Collegium this October, sort of an Early-Music-For-Beginners
                              class where we'll listen to examples of a number of medieval and
                              Renaissance pieces. (There's no way I can cram six centuries of music
                              into an hour, but at least it's a place to get started.)

                              Hope to see some of you there.

                              Jehanne de Wodeford, West
                            • Joan Garner
                              ... Early-Music-For- Beginners class where we ll listen to examples of a number of medieval and Renaissance pieces. Speaking of shameless, might you have 3 or
                              Message 14 of 25 , Aug 11, 2002
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                                --- wodeford <wodeford@...> wrote:
                                >Warning, shameless plug ahead: The only way to
                                >educate one's ears is to keep listening. To that
                                >end, I'm teaching at the West Kingdom's Fall
                                >Collegium this October, sort of an
                                Early-Music-For->Beginners class where we'll listen to
                                examples of a >number of medieval and Renaissance
                                pieces.

                                Speaking of shameless, might you have 3 or 4 minutes
                                to spare in this class for me to pop in with my harp
                                and play a bit of something? maybe 14th C. Spanish?
                                maybe my widely-acclaimed (by all 20 people who have
                                heard it!) rendition of Sweet Robin?

                                Joan the Harper

                                =====
                                "And she'd had lucky eyes and a high heart, and wisdom that caught fire, at need, like the dried flax and made her beautiful and fierce, sudden and laughing."
                                [My favorite line of poetry in the world, from Yeats' "The Old Age of Queen Maeve."]

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                              • wodeford
                                ... Responded privately. JdeW
                                Message 15 of 25 , Aug 11, 2002
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                                  --- In SCA_BARDS@y..., Joan Garner <joan_the_harpist1119@y...> wrote:
                                  > Speaking of shameless, might you have 3 or 4 minutes
                                  > to spare in this class for me to pop in with my harp
                                  > and play a bit of something?
                                  Responded privately.

                                  JdeW
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