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songs sung to gutiar......

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  • delancray1452
    anyone have any easier ones they would like to share? i am taking begining guitar, due to the fact that in october i was told that women can t play
    Message 1 of 17 , Jun 11, 2002
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      anyone have any easier ones they would like to share? i am taking
      begining guitar, due to the fact that in october i was told that
      women can't play guitar....and actualy i haven't seen any female's in
      the SCA with a guitar!
      Well, not at the events i have been to in the west kingdom that is.
      anyway, if any kind and giving bard out there might have a simple yet
      effective tune, please pass it along, and i shall thank you every
      time it is played!
      Constance
    • kataryna_dragonweaver
      We have a lady in Avacal (AnTir) who plays guitar. My opinion is if you can then do (but I m not an authenticity nut). If i dig around enough I ll drop some
      Message 2 of 17 , Jun 11, 2002
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        We have a lady in Avacal (AnTir) who plays guitar. My opinion is
        if you can then do (but I'm not an authenticity nut). If i dig around
        enough I'll drop some begining guitar stuff in the files section (in
        my folder). - It won't nessecarily be period but it will be folkish
        (periodoid).
        -Kataryna

        --- In SCA_BARDS@y..., "delancray1452" <delancray1452@y...> wrote:
        > anyone have any easier ones they would like to share? i am taking
        > begining guitar, due to the fact that in october i was told that
        > women can't play guitar....and actualy i haven't seen any female's in
        > the SCA with a guitar!
        > Well, not at the events i have been to in the west kingdom that is.
        > anyway, if any kind and giving bard out there might have a simple yet
        > effective tune, please pass it along, and i shall thank you every
        > time it is played!
        > Constance
      • wodeford
        ... in ... I am not sure in what context you were told women can t play guitar, however, while researching 18th century music, I recall coming across the
        Message 3 of 17 , Jun 12, 2002
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          --- In SCA_BARDS@y..., "delancray1452" <delancray1452@y...> wrote:
          > anyone have any easier ones they would like to share? i am taking
          > begining guitar, due to the fact that in october i was told that
          > women can't play guitar....and actualy i haven't seen any female's
          in
          > the SCA with a guitar!
          > Well, not at the events i have been to in the west kingdom that is.

          I am not sure in what context you were told women can't play guitar,
          however, while researching 18th century music, I recall coming across
          the statement that it was not at that time considered a lady's
          instrument.

          On the other hand, Jan Vermeer of Delft painted a female as "The
          Guitar Player" in 1672 (http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/index1.html will
          take you to the Web Gallery of art, has an image of her with a detail
          of her 17th century guitar).

          A search at amazon.com turned up several books on "Renaissance
          Guitar"
          http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/104-2654423-
          2234310

          The Lute Society of America has a website at
          http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lsa.html if you later decide you'd
          like to learn more about this relative of the guitar.

          Tuppenceworth,
          Jehanne de Wodeford (WEST)
        • Susanna Rodriguez
          Yes well, middle ages as they should have been and all that. Nice little viking girls didn t strap on armor and go bash people in the head either, but we
          Message 4 of 17 , Jun 12, 2002
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            Yes well, "middle ages as they should have been" and all that. Nice little viking girls didn't strap on armor and go bash people in the head either, but we tend to forgive the little gender lapses... It is interesting that the guitar was a "man's" instrument. Wonder why. Maybe the size? A viol or mandolin is certainly more... dainty... than a guitar. Theories anyone?

            As for the previous comment regarding women in the SCA and guitar playing or lack thereof- Leslie Fish. Nuff said. :) I dare anyone to tell Leslie "can't" about anything. Just warn me first. I wanna watch from a protected area.

            Elsa

              wodeford <wodeford@...> wrote:

            --- In SCA_BARDS@y..., "delancray1452" <delancray1452@y...> wrote:
            > anyone have any easier ones they would like to share? i am taking
            > begining guitar, due to the fact that in october i was told that
            > women can't play guitar....and actualy i haven't seen any female's
            in
            > the SCA with a guitar!
            > Well, not at the events i have been to in the west kingdom that is.

            I am not sure in what context you were told women can't play guitar,
            however, while researching 18th century music, I recall coming across
            the statement that it was not at that time considered a lady's
            instrument.

            On the other hand, Jan Vermeer of Delft painted a female as "The
            Guitar Player" in 1672 (http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/index1.html will
            take you to the Web Gallery of art, has an image of her with a detail
            of her 17th century guitar).

            A search at amazon.com turned up several books on "Renaissance
            Guitar"
            http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/104-2654423-
            2234310

            The Lute Society of America has a website at
            http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lsa.html  if you later decide you'd
            like to learn more about this relative of the guitar.

            Tuppenceworth,
            Jehanne de Wodeford (WEST)





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          • Trey Capnerhurst
            Yeah, well, if you stopped trying something everytime some doorknob said that women couldn t do that, just think where you d be. I can t think of a single
            Message 5 of 17 , Jun 12, 2002
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              Yeah, well, if you stopped trying something everytime some doorknob said that women couldn't do that, just think where you'd be.
               
              I can't think of a single worthwhile activity or skill that hasn't been condemned by somebody for a certain group of ppl.
               
              You have no need to defend yourself with the incredibly numerous examples at all.
               
              Treasach
              .
              anyone have any easier ones they would like to share? i am taking
              begining guitar, due to the fact that in october i was told that
              women can't play guitar....and actualy i haven't seen any female's in
              the SCA with a guitar!
              Well, not at the events i have been to in the west kingdom that is.
              anyway, if any kind and giving bard out there might have a simple yet
              effective tune, please pass it along, and i shall thank you every
              time it is played!
              Constance


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            • Trey Capnerhurst
              The other main problem is of course that the modern guitar isn t period. What is called a gitar in Ren. has many serious differences from modern style. From
              Message 6 of 17 , Jun 12, 2002
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                The other main problem is of course that the modern guitar isn't period.
                 
                What is called a 'gitar' in Ren. has many serious differences from modern style.  From strings, to tuning pegs, to tuning itself.  It's quite a different instrument.  More like a CBOM than a guitar.
                 
                There are many paintings with women playing lutes from period.  They are a heck of alot harder to play.  So it's not a skill thing.
                 
                So your buddy who pronounces 'women don't do guitar' obviously doesn't know his music as well as he should.
                 
                Treasach 

                --- In SCA_BARDS@y..., "delancray1452" <delancray1452@y...> wrote:
                > anyone have any easier ones they would like to share? i am taking
                > begining guitar, due to the fact that in october i was told that
                > women can't play guitar....and actualy i haven't seen any female's
                in
                > the SCA with a guitar!
                > Well, not at the events i have been to in the west kingdom that is.

                I am not sure in what context you were told women can't play guitar,
                however, while researching 18th century music, I recall coming across
                the statement that it was not at that time considered a lady's
                instrument.

                On the other hand, Jan Vermeer of Delft painted a female as "The
                Guitar Player" in 1672 (http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/index1.html will
                take you to the Web Gallery of art, has an image of her with a detail
                of her 17th century guitar).

                A search at amazon.com turned up several books on "Renaissance
                Guitar"
                http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/104-2654423-
                2234310

                The Lute Society of America has a website at
                http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lsa.html  if you later decide you'd
                like to learn more about this relative of the guitar.

                Tuppenceworth,
                Jehanne de Wodeford (WEST)





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              • Michael B. Greenstein
                [I can t think of a single worthwhile activity or skill that hasn t been condemned by somebody for a certain group of ppl. You have no need to defend yourself
                Message 7 of 17 , Jun 12, 2002
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                  [I can't think of a single worthwhile activity or skill that hasn't been
                  condemned by somebody for a certain group of ppl.

                  You have no need to defend yourself with the incredibly numerous examples at
                  all.]

                  You can always adopt what seems to be the motto of our Baron and Baroness:
                  "Back, you demons of Stupidity!"

                  Regards,
                  Michael
                • wodeford
                  ... period. For photos of reproduction lutes, vihuelas (a period Spanish guitarlike instrument) and Renaissance guitars, go to
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jun 12, 2002
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                    --- In SCA_BARDS@y..., "Trey Capnerhurst" <traesach@l...> wrote:
                    > The other main problem is of course that the modern guitar isn't
                    period.

                    For photos of reproduction lutes, vihuelas (a period Spanish
                    guitarlike instrument) and Renaissance guitars, go to
                    http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/new/new_lute.html

                    Found that citation and I misremembered it! Harpsichord and "English
                    Guitar" WERE appropriate "ladies' instruments" in the 18th century,
                    while flute and fiddle were more likely to be played by gentlemen.
                    This is according to Colonial music maven David Hildebrandt who cites
                    a portrait of Francis Scott Key's grandmother holding a 10 stringed
                    guitar.

                    Sorry for the error.

                    Jehanne de Wodeford (WEST)
                  • wodeford
                    http://www.malaspina.com/harp/guitar/guitar.htm Another website with info on the guitar before 1650. Jehanne de Wodeford (WEST)
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jun 13, 2002
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                      http://www.malaspina.com/harp/guitar/guitar.htm

                      Another website with info on the guitar before 1650.

                      Jehanne de Wodeford (WEST)
                    • Trey Capnerhurst
                      Ah, the Shark in the Morning Website. There has been much debate on some of the accuracies of their work on other lists. My lord did, in fact, purchase a
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jun 13, 2002
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                        Ah, the Shark in the Morning Website.
                         
                        There has been much debate on some of the accuracies of their work on other lists.  My lord did, in fact, purchase a beginning 5 course cittern from them.  It required some alteration just to be playable, but what do you expect from their bargain basement?  Their info, like their instruments, are a bit hit and miss.
                         
                        The other problem is, of course, the cut off date.  The delineation of the date is usually considered to be 1600, or pre-17th century in the Corpora.  That makes it much harder to justify a modern style guitar.
                         
                        Not that it really matters unless one is going for serious authenticity anyway.  There is already plenty of music that is not period.  I don't see anyone banning bohrans or tin whistles.  Some ppl also use them as a starting point to learn the more accurate instruments later in their carreers.
                         
                        Treasach
                        -----
                        http://www.malaspina.com/harp/guitar/guitar.htm

                        Another website with info on the guitar before 1650.

                        Jehanne de Wodeford (WEST)


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                      • Shivaun McGoff
                        ... My lady, The Bodhran is not period? I had no idea. Do you know what type of drum was period for the Irish? Siobhan
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jun 13, 2002
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                          Trey Capnerhurst wrote:

                          > There is already plenty of music that is not period. I don't see
                          > anyone banning bohrans or tin whistles. Some ppl also use them as a
                          > starting point to learn the more accurate instruments later in their
                          > careers.

                          My lady,

                          The Bodhran is not period? I had no idea. Do you know what type of drum
                          was period for the Irish?

                          Siobhan
                        • Briana K
                          Shark in the morning... it s funny that they do a booming business in Seattle, the same city that hosts the truly brilliant music shop Dusty Srtings. Have a
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jun 16, 2002
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                            Shark in the morning... it's funny that they do a booming business in
                            Seattle, the same city that hosts the truly brilliant music shop Dusty
                            Srtings. Have a look on google for their website: it may prove far more
                            efficacious, and trustworthy: these guys KNOW their cookies!

                            WARNING: hot button about the bodhran and whistle. They are period
                            instruments, darn it! :)

                            I can document the bodhran, WITH the double-ended playing stick, to the
                            mid fourteen hundreds in Ireland, (there's an extant surviving drum
                            frame, tacks and fragment of skin, showing patterns of wear on the skin
                            identical to the Kerry style patterns of the best local drummers in
                            Ireland: it's hanging in the Irish Folk History Museum in Dublin.

                            I can document the same tuning of the modern tin whistle in the feadog
                            (whistle) made of wood or reed to easily within period. There are many
                            literary references made, as well as archealogical evidence: fipples for
                            whistles (carved of wood, fitted to a reed body), and whistle bodies
                            themselves. There are even a few authentic broadside woodcuts of Irish
                            street musicians of the fifteen-hundreds playing thin reed whistles. END
                            of rant... :)

                            Synthesis is a good idea in research: broaden the parameters and you
                            often find exactly what you are looking for in way out-of-the-way places.


                            Briana nic h'Eusaidh
                            Filidhe n'An Tir
                          • Susanna Rodriguez
                            I m going to be nitpicky for educational purposes, please take these as real questions, not argument :) I can document the bodhran, WITH the double-ended
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jun 16, 2002
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                              I'm going to be nitpicky for educational purposes, please take these as real questions, not argument :) 


                              "I can document the bodhran, WITH the double-ended playing stick, to the
                              mid fourteen hundreds in Ireland, (there's an extant surviving drum
                              frame, tacks and fragment of skin, showing patterns of wear on the skin
                              identical to the Kerry style patterns of the best local drummers in
                              Ireland: it's hanging in the Irish Folk History Museum in Dublin."

                              Is this drum a pretty exact match for the modern bodhran or are there some differences? And do you have a link or a book reference for those of us who'd like to take a look?

                              "I can document the same tuning of the modern tin whistle in the feadog
                              (whistle) made of wood or reed to easily within period. There are many
                              literary references made, as well as archealogical evidence: fipples for
                              whistles (carved of wood, fitted to a reed body), and whistle bodies
                              themselves. There are even a few authentic broadside woodcuts of Irish
                              street musicians of the fifteen-hundreds playing thin reed whistles. END
                              of rant... :)"

                              So... to clarify, the tin whistle isn't period but it's based on a whistle that is? And very closely based except for the material it's made of?

                              "Synthesis is a good idea in research: broaden the parameters and you
                              often find exactly what you are looking for in way out-of-the-way places."

                              Amen! Thanks for the info.

                              Elsa



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                            • wodeford
                              ... whistle that is? And very closely based except for the material it s made of? Again, I no longer have access to it, but I recall reading mention of
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jun 16, 2002
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                                --- In SCA_BARDS@y..., Susanna Rodriguez <mamaduck@r...> wrote:
                                > So... to clarify, the tin whistle isn't period but it's based on a
                                whistle that is? And very closely based except for the material it's
                                made of?

                                Again, I no longer have access to it, but I recall reading mention
                                of "whistlers" as one of the many classes of musicians described in
                                Brehon law as reported in Eugene O'Curry's 19th century lectures "On
                                The Manners And Customs of the Ancient Irish." (And darn it,
                                www.brehon.org is STILL under construction!)

                                I don't know about the rest of you, but when somebody posts a
                                question I don't know the answer to, it makes ME curious. I can't
                                tell you how many times somebody else's question has sent me on a web
                                search for more info. I realize one can't believe everything one
                                finds on the web, but it's a place to start. Sir Gaston de Clermont
                                of our local group (Golden Rivers, West Kingdom), built a hurdy
                                gurdy. He and I have been trading e-mails, weblinks and scans from
                                books for months in the hopes of translating depictions from period
                                artwork into a playable instrument. It's been fascinating - and
                                Gaston has completed a primitive box hurdy gurdy.

                                This is the kind of stuff I LOVE about the SCA. Anybody else out
                                there have any interesting projects you're working on or know of?
                                Please share!

                                Cheers,
                                Jehanne de Wodeford (West)
                              • Trey Capnerhurst
                                Sorry, Briana. The appellation is one I saw on another list, where there are expert historians on stringed instruments. I won t pretend to understand their
                                Message 15 of 17 , Jun 16, 2002
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                                  Sorry, Briana.  The appellation is one I saw on another list, where there are expert historians on stringed instruments.  I won't pretend to understand their arguments, but they have some issues with the company and they use 'Shark in the Morning'.  Possibly even as somewhat of an questionable endearment.
                                   
                                  I would also love the documentation on the whistle and bohran.  I play the drum myself, but have not been able to prove it's authenticity, and so have a hard time justifying bringing it to the SCA.  I would need to know what songs it was played with, if it was used as only an accent instrument, like it is now, or was it more of a beat keeper.  Was it with singing, playing, or recitation?  Was it untreated goatskin, like the best ones are now, or other materials?
                                   
                                  And one of the royal bards here is a tin whistle god, but he keeps getting flack for his authenticity.  My partner and I have wood ones, with a fipple that is tied on with a thong, believe it or not.  Works great.)
                                   
                                  I'm so used to the instruments with the 17th and 18th cent. stuff I'd love to know how to do it in period.
                                   
                                  I hope you'll be bringing some of that info with you when you come up....
                                   
                                  Treasach    

                                  Shark in the morning... it's funny that they do a booming business in
                                  Seattle, the same city that hosts the truly brilliant music shop Dusty
                                  Srtings. Have a look on google for their website: it may prove far more
                                  efficacious, and trustworthy: these guys KNOW their cookies!

                                  WARNING: hot button about the bodhran and whistle. They are period
                                  instruments, darn it! :)

                                  I can document the bodhran, WITH the double-ended playing stick, to the
                                  mid fourteen hundreds in Ireland, (there's an extant surviving drum
                                  frame, tacks and fragment of skin, showing patterns of wear on the skin
                                  identical to the Kerry style patterns of the best local drummers in
                                  Ireland: it's hanging in the Irish Folk History Museum in Dublin.

                                  I can document the same tuning of the modern tin whistle in the feadog
                                  (whistle) made of wood or reed to easily within period. There are many
                                  literary references made, as well as archealogical evidence: fipples for
                                  whistles (carved of wood, fitted to a reed body), and whistle bodies
                                  themselves. There are even a few authentic broadside woodcuts of Irish
                                  street musicians of the fifteen-hundreds playing thin reed whistles. END
                                  of rant... :)

                                  Synthesis is a good idea in research: broaden the parameters and you
                                  often find exactly what you are looking for in way out-of-the-way places.


                                  Briana nic h'Eusaidh
                                  Filidhe n'An Tir

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                                • Briana K
                                  ... That s cool by me: Questions are good! ... Not exact, but very darn close. Key difference is that it is single plank construction on the bore as opposed to
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Jun 19, 2002
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                                    Susanna Rodriguez wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I'm going to be nitpicky for educational purposes, please take these
                                    > as real questions, not argument :)

                                    That's cool by me: Questions are good!
                                    >
                                    > Is this drum a pretty exact match for the modern bodhran or are there
                                    > some differences? And do you have a link or a book reference for those
                                    > of us who'd like to take a look?

                                    Not exact, but very darn close. Key difference is that it is single
                                    plank construction on the bore as opposed to laminate (they steam-bent
                                    one piece of wood rather than glueing together already bent thin layers
                                    of wood). As well, the tacks are pretty much headless, and appear to
                                    have always been that way. The inner edge nearest the skin is bevelled
                                    inward, like the best bodhrans today, and there's a fragment of a tack
                                    brace in leather as opposed to wood.

                                    I am sorting through all my old papers in prep for the Bardic and
                                    Performing Arts Collegium: I put together a full packet of doc,
                                    including the folk museum's file on this drum (and their other two
                                    period extant frames) when I find it, I'd be happy to post that whole
                                    research section to the archive for whoever wants it.

                                    >
                                    > So... to clarify, the tin whistle isn't period but it's based on a
                                    > whistle that is? And very closely based except for the material it's
                                    > made of?

                                    You have it exactly. The conical, rolled tin whistle (the classic Clark
                                    penny-whistle) is less accurate than the straight modern (Generations or
                                    Oak) feadog: reeds down't grow in cones.

                                    I am experimenting with locally harvested reeds to try and cut a truly
                                    period whistle. I suspect fipples were carved of a harder material than
                                    the body, because the blade was a tricky bit to get right. Any new body
                                    can be based on one in hand, but fipples have to cut the air jsut right
                                    to get the sound.

                                    >
                                    > "Synthesis is a good idea in research: broaden the parameters and you
                                    > often find exactly what you are looking for in way out-of-the-way
                                    > places."
                                    >
                                    > Amen! Thanks for the info.


                                    My pleasure. I like clearing up misunderstandings about my instruments.

                                    For further info, the documentation from the period shows drummers
                                    playing alongside singers, pipers and fiddlers. The Irish music
                                    tradition (among real purists) is that the bodhran is played only to
                                    accompany voice or pipes, or played for the dancers. It is still frowned
                                    upon in some set music circles, even after the efforts of Tommy Makem,
                                    and the Chieftain's drummer, amongst many others who have included the
                                    drum in their recordings and performances. The rhythm of most pieces is
                                    carried by the high end instruments, the whistle and/or fiddle, so the
                                    best bodhraneior will use their instrument for accent purposes for the
                                    most part, instead of trying to drive the beat.

                                    Any question about this instrument I'd be happy to address. :)


                                    Briana K
                                  • kataryna_dragonweaver
                                    ... truly ... than ... body ... right ... My dad used to make little whistles out of young willow or poplar, or dogwood bark. He d choose a branch the right
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Jun 19, 2002
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                                      > I am experimenting with locally harvested reeds to try and cut a
                                      truly
                                      > period whistle. I suspect fipples were carved of a harder material
                                      than
                                      > the body, because the blade was a tricky bit to get right. Any new
                                      body
                                      > can be based on one in hand, but fipples have to cut the air jsut
                                      right
                                      > to get the sound.
                                      >

                                      My dad used to make little whistles out of young willow or poplar,
                                      or dogwood bark. He'd choose a branch the right width (about the size
                                      of a smaller modern pennywhistle) - and cut it longer then needed
                                      (you need to choose a section without knots or small branches). Then
                                      he'd make a knife cut around the bark (but not through the wood) and
                                      after a bit of twisting he'd pull the bark (in one piece) off the
                                      wood. Then he'd carve a piece of the wood he pulled out to be like a
                                      fipple and re-insert it into the bark - cut holes in the remaining
                                      area of the bark and play it. He didn't spend time figuring where to
                                      place the holes - what ever he got was what he worked with.
                                      I've made them this way too - but never could get a piece longer
                                      then three holes.
                                      You could also use the remaining wood to make a sort of slide for
                                      the whistle (like a trombone slide) - it makes an odd sound - sort of
                                      like a whoop.
                                      The bark dries out after a while and cracks - so they only last a
                                      few weeks - I remember trying to store one in water because I liked
                                      it so much (I think it got moldy and I had to toss it).
                                      It's also possible that you could soak the wood in water to help
                                      get the bark off (I don't remember if we did this or not).

                                      The last time I made one would have been in Junior High (a very long
                                      time ago). I think I'll have to ask my dad if he remembers how to do
                                      this.
                                      -Kataryna
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