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killing your own

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  • John Edgerton
    From an a fighter and a list whose names I will not give. But, it is interesting what some fighters think of siege engineers and other missile users. And this
    Message 1 of 12 , Sep 5, 2002
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      From an a fighter and a list whose names I will not give. But, it is
      interesting what some fighters think of siege engineers and other
      missile users. And this was a war not a tournament. .

      Jon
      ***************************************
      Misc. deleted
      ".......did you really kill our own treb team
      > in
      > the name of chivalrous combat? That's the word on the street, so I
      > would like to get your view.

      My view was that they were using a peasant weapon on gentlemen of coat
      armor during a tournament, and I felt that was an unchivalrous act.
      Therefore, my chivalry required that I put a stop to it. How does
      killing some peasants (and they must have been peasants or they wouldn't

      have been using missle weapons!) who were using missle weapons in
      tournament reflect poorly on a knight? Later, after consultation with
      brother knights, I apologized to all concerend after it was pointed out
      to me that they were doing so under direction of the king, and so were
      not themselves responsible for the unspeakable crime they were
      committing.

      But it behooves us, as knights, to end these abominations now. They
      have
      no place on our fields of honor."

      misc deleted
    • Charlene Ratliff
      Hmmm, could I possibly get a description of this honorable knights armor? This peasant would certainly hate to accidently shoot him next
      Message 2 of 12 , Sep 5, 2002
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        Hmmm, could I possibly get a description of this "honorable" knights armor?
        This "peasant" would certainly hate to accidently shoot him next
        year....repeatedly.



        Delfina


        >From: John Edgerton <sirjon1@...>
        >Reply-To: SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com
        >To: sca-siege <SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com>
        >Subject: [SCA-Siege] killing your own
        >Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 13:57:42 -0700
        >
        >From an a fighter and a list whose names I will not give. But, it is
        >interesting what some fighters think of siege engineers and other
        >missile users. And this was a war not a tournament. .
        >
        >Jon
        >***************************************
        >Misc. deleted
        >".......did you really kill our own treb team
        > > in
        > > the name of chivalrous combat? That's the word on the street, so I
        > > would like to get your view.
        >
        >My view was that they were using a peasant weapon on gentlemen of coat
        >armor during a tournament, and I felt that was an unchivalrous act.
        >Therefore, my chivalry required that I put a stop to it. How does
        >killing some peasants (and they must have been peasants or they wouldn't
        >
        >have been using missle weapons!) who were using missle weapons in
        >tournament reflect poorly on a knight? Later, after consultation with
        >brother knights, I apologized to all concerend after it was pointed out
        >to me that they were doing so under direction of the king, and so were
        >not themselves responsible for the unspeakable crime they were
        >committing.
        >
        >But it behooves us, as knights, to end these abominations now. They
        >have
        >no place on our fields of honor."
        >
        >misc deleted
        >




        -Remember, no matter where you go...there you are!-




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      • WBFOUNTAIN@aol.com
        ... Considering that we are not fighting a tournament and that we would prefer to win, I cannot see what the deal is when an effective weapon is used to try
        Message 3 of 12 , Sep 5, 2002
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          > From an a fighter and a list whose names I will not give. But, it is
          > interesting what some fighters think of siege engineers and other
          > missile users. And this was a war not a tournament. .
          >
          > Jon
          > ***************************************
          > Misc. deleted
          > ".......did you really kill our own treb team
          > > in
          > > the name of chivalrous combat? That's the word on the street, so I
          > > would like to get your view.
          >
          > My view was that they were using a peasant weapon on gentlemen of coat
          > armor during a tournament, and I felt that was an unchivalrous act.
          > Therefore, my chivalry required that I put a stop to it. How does
          > killing some peasants (and they must have been peasants or they wouldn't
          >
          > have been using missle weapons!) who were using missle weapons in
          > tournament reflect poorly on a knight? Later, after consultation with
          > brother knights, I apologized to all concerend after it was pointed out
          > to me that they were doing so under direction of the king, and so were
          > not themselves responsible for the unspeakable crime they were
          > committing.
          >
          > But it behooves us, as knights, to end these abominations now. They
          > have
          > no place on our fields of honor."
          >
          > misc deleted
          >
          >



          Considering that we are not fighting a tournament and that we would prefer to
          win, I cannot see what the deal is when an effective weapon is used to try
          and become victorious.....

          I remember back a few years when folks were up in arms about the new
          fiberglass spear shafts. I can't remember seeing any spears this year at
          war that were not fiberglass - where did all the objections disappear too?

          It is a shame that folks have to get so adamant about resistance to
          change....
          It is not like CA is new - and I see Siege as an offshoot of CA. (but this
          may be influenced by my regions attitudes).

          Ld Brun Canutesson
          Middle Kingdom Chief of Artillery


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jean Paul Pierrepont
          ... to ... this ... ACK It is this attitude that makes some wonder what some Knights stand for... This is not a slam to many I do know that DO have a Life, and
          Message 4 of 12 , Sep 5, 2002
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            > > From an a fighter and a list whose names I will not give. But, it is
            > > interesting what some fighters think of siege engineers and other
            > > missile users. And this was a war not a tournament. .
            > >
            > > Jon
            > > ***************************************
            > > Misc. deleted
            > > ".......did you really kill our own treb team
            > > > in
            > > > the name of chivalrous combat? That's the word on the street, so I
            > > > would like to get your view.
            > >
            > > My view was that they were using a peasant weapon on gentlemen of coat
            > > armor during a tournament, and I felt that was an unchivalrous act.
            > > Therefore, my chivalry required that I put a stop to it. How does
            > > killing some peasants (and they must have been peasants or they wouldn't
            > >
            > > have been using missle weapons!) who were using missle weapons in
            > > tournament reflect poorly on a knight? Later, after consultation with
            > > brother knights, I apologized to all concerend after it was pointed out
            > > to me that they were doing so under direction of the king, and so were
            > > not themselves responsible for the unspeakable crime they were
            > > committing.
            > >
            > > But it behooves us, as knights, to end these abominations now. They
            > > have
            > > no place on our fields of honor."
            > >
            > > misc deleted
            -----------------------------------
            > Considering that we are not fighting a tournament and that we would prefer
            to
            > win, I cannot see what the deal is when an effective weapon is used to try
            > and become victorious.....
            >
            > I remember back a few years when folks were up in arms about the new
            > fiberglass spear shafts. I can't remember seeing any spears this year at
            > war that were not fiberglass - where did all the objections disappear too?
            >
            > It is a shame that folks have to get so adamant about resistance to
            > change....
            > It is not like CA is new - and I see Siege as an offshoot of CA. (but
            this
            > may be influenced by my regions attitudes).
            >
            > Ld Brun Canutesson
            > Middle Kingdom Chief of Artillery
            -------------------------------------
            ACK

            It is this attitude that makes some wonder what some Knights stand for...
            This is not a slam to many I do know that DO have a Life, and Do realize
            that this is a source of enjoyment to many and DO live the vow they take
            each day.

            I have No Clue who that Sir Bozo was, BUT I would have asked the King to
            have him and his support staff pulled off the field for the next battle.
            WHY??
            Many of us...in climates that do not have long siege fighting seasons, long
            for a war that allow US to play! Many events here (Middle) do not have the
            space to allow Missile/Siege to go "play". We dream to do more that 3
            battles a year, and a Knight (of the person's own Kingdom) that would ruin
            one battle for his team because of his own skewed view of his world. Pull
            him & staff as then they might get a taste of what it is like to want to
            play, but not be allowed to play.

            BUT I see very few getting slapped for that....Apologizing was a cheap way
            out, I would have given him a piece of my mind...

            And the term would have been Sir Bozo.......

            Jean Paul Pierrepont
          • Jaime Tiampo
            ... Apparently someone forgot to tell this gentleman that it was a war and not a tournament and if he was told, someone should check for concussion. -- Ts ai
            Message 5 of 12 , Sep 5, 2002
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              John Edgerton wrote:
              >
              > >From an a fighter and a list whose names I will not give. But, it is
              > interesting what some fighters think of siege engineers and other
              > missile users. And this was a war not a tournament. .
              >
              > Jon
              > ***************************************
              > Misc. deleted
              > ".......did you really kill our own treb team
              > > in
              > > the name of chivalrous combat? That's the word on the street, so I
              > > would like to get your view.
              >
              > My view was that they were using a peasant weapon on gentlemen of coat
              > armor during a tournament, and I felt that was an unchivalrous act.
              > Therefore, my chivalry required that I put a stop to it. How does
              > killing some peasants (and they must have been peasants or they wouldn't
              >

              Apparently someone forgot to tell this gentleman that it was a war and
              not a tournament and if he was told, someone should check for
              concussion.

              --
              Ts'ai T'ien-p'u
            • Bob Komarek
              Wow archers and siege are unchivalrous. Will have to make a note to myself to let the knights that do CA and that want to fling big heavy rock, that some of
              Message 6 of 12 , Sep 5, 2002
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                Wow archers and siege are unchivalrous. Will have to make a note to myself
                to let the knights that do CA and that want to fling big heavy rock, that
                some of the peers in other kingdoms will see them as unchivalric

                I never thought that someone would consider Siege engines as "Peasant"
                weapons, I don't know of any peasants that designed them, maybe they built
                them under the guidance of an engineer. Now if this Knight does not want
                "peasant" weapons then he might want to get rid of any spears or polearms
                that he may use since they where most defenatly used by the "peasants" in
                the armys.

                So does this Knight feel that his King is unchivalric since as he put it
                "They were doing so under direction of the king, and so were
                not themselves responsible for the unspeakable crime they were committing."
                Not very chivalric of said knight.

                Lord Fergus mac Conal

                At 01:57 PM 9/5/2002 -0700, you wrote:
                > >From an a fighter and a list whose names I will not give. But, it is
                >interesting what some fighters think of siege engineers and other
                >missile users. And this was a war not a tournament. .
                >
                >Jon
                >***************************************
                >Misc. deleted
                >".......did you really kill our own treb team
                > > in
                > > the name of chivalrous combat? That's the word on the street, so I
                > > would like to get your view.
                >
                >My view was that they were using a peasant weapon on gentlemen of coat
                >armor during a tournament, and I felt that was an unchivalrous act.
                >Therefore, my chivalry required that I put a stop to it. How does
                >killing some peasants (and they must have been peasants or they wouldn't
                >
                >have been using missle weapons!) who were using missle weapons in
                >tournament reflect poorly on a knight? Later, after consultation with
                >brother knights, I apologized to all concerend after it was pointed out
                >to me that they were doing so under direction of the king, and so were
                >not themselves responsible for the unspeakable crime they were
                >committing.
                >
                >But it behooves us, as knights, to end these abominations now. They
                >have
                >no place on our fields of honor."
                >
                >misc deleted
                >
                >
                >
                >Get medieval at Mad Macsen's
                >http://www.MedievalMart.com/
                >
                >Sponsored by House Wyvern Hall, BBM, East Kingdom, SCA
                >[Email to SCA-Siege-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]
                >
                >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              • wyvern@megahits.com
                ... I don t know who this yahoo is, Jon, but apparently he flunked history if he believed knight s never operated missile or siege weapons. = ... What a
                Message 7 of 12 , Sep 5, 2002
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                  On 5 Sep 2002 at 13:57, John Edgerton wrote:

                  > >From an a fighter and a list whose names I will not give. But, it is
                  > interesting what some fighters think of siege engineers and other
                  > missile users. And this was a war not a tournament. .

                  > My view was that they were using a peasant weapon on gentlemen of coat
                  > armor during a tournament, and I felt that was an unchivalrous act.
                  > Therefore, my chivalry required that I put a stop to it. How does
                  > killing some peasants (and they must have been peasants or they
                  > wouldn't have been using missle weapons!) who were using missle
                  > weapons in

                  I don't know who this yahoo is, Jon, but apparently he flunked history if
                  he believed "knight's" never operated missile or siege weapons. =>

                  > tournament reflect poorly on a knight? Later, after consultation with
                  > brother knights, I apologized to all concerend after it was pointed
                  > out to me that they were doing so under direction of the king, and so
                  > were not themselves responsible for the unspeakable crime they were
                  > committing.

                  What a maroon...

                  YIS,
                  Macsen
                • Oohashi Katsutoshi
                  Sir Jon Fitzrauf posted: From an a fighter and a list whose names I will not give. But, it is interesting what some fighters think of siege engineers and other
                  Message 8 of 12 , Sep 5, 2002
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                    Sir Jon Fitzrauf posted:

                    From an a fighter and a list whose names I will not give. But, it is
                    interesting what some fighters think of siege engineers and other
                    missile users. And this was a war not a tournament. .

                    Jon
                    ***************************************
                    Misc. deleted
                    ".......did you really kill our own treb team
                    > in
                    > the name of chivalrous combat? That's the word on the street, so I
                    > would like to get your view.

                    My view was that they were using a peasant weapon on gentlemen of coat
                    armor during a tournament, and I felt that was an unchivalrous act.
                    Therefore, my chivalry required that I put a stop to it. How does
                    killing some peasants (and they must have been peasants or they wouldn't
                    have been using missle weapons!) who were using missle weapons in
                    tournament reflect poorly on a knight? Later, after consultation with
                    brother knights,

                    And specific direction from his King, who was not at all pleased. I
                    would add that this particular King is now (at His request) a
                    warranted EK Siege marshal.

                    toshi

                    I apologized to all concerend after it was pointed out
                    to me that they were doing so under direction of the king, and so were
                    not themselves responsible for the unspeakable crime they were
                    committing.

                    But it behooves us, as knights, to end these abominations now. They
                    have no place on our fields of honor."



                    --

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • William Nye
                    Well, it is sad that there are some knights out there who feel this way. However, there are others such as Earl Sir Edward Ian Anderson who not only approve of
                    Message 9 of 12 , Sep 5, 2002
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                      Well, it is sad that there are some knights out there
                      who feel this way. However, there are others such as
                      Earl Sir Edward Ian Anderson who not only approve of
                      seige engines but have also generously donated
                      materials to build them.


                      Liam Olafsson





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                    • Camp, Paul
                      Did this chap *really* kill a treb crew on his own side? In terms of modern SCA, that s really *weird*! It ruins someone else s game that s being played within
                      Message 10 of 12 , Sep 6, 2002
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                        Did this chap *really* kill a treb crew on his own side?
                        In terms of modern SCA, that's really *weird*! It ruins
                        someone else's game that's being played within the rules.

                        In terms of knightly mores of the high Middle Ages, it's
                        also rather atypical, in that killing people operating one
                        of your own army's siege engines during a war would be stupid.
                        Some knights *were* stupid; most were not. The lord whom the
                        army served would be truly pissed off at having his valued
                        professional siege engineers killed out of chivalric pique,
                        and his expensive siege engines made useless.

                        Knights, generally speaking, did not engage in missle
                        warfare. It was not their job, and they weren't particularly good at it.
                        After investing all the expense and training involved
                        in producing a fully armored and mounted heavy cavalryman,
                        using him as an archer or artilleryman would be a waste. Like a
                        modern commander using his tanks to do the job of infantry. Also
                        it would affront the knight's class pride and honor. Rather like requiring a
                        full Professor to do the work of a graduate assistant. However, during
                        sieges, there were occasions when even knights would turn to and take a shot
                        at the fortified enemy.

                        Killing one's own missle troops out of impatience and class
                        pride is not unprecedented however. Remember that the French
                        knights rode down their own Genoese mercenary crossbowmen at
                        Crecy in 1346. "Clear me away this rabble," their commander said.
                        They then proceeded to charge and get the guts shot out of them by the
                        English longbowmen. There are other cases in Mediaeval history when
                        "gentlemen of coat armour" took out their own infantry in trying to close
                        with the foe.

                        Of course, armies that engaged in such bull-headed "chivalry" usually lost
                        their battles. I believe the French knights serving with the Hungarians lost
                        the battle of Nicopolis in 1396 because "honor" required that they charge
                        straight into the Turkish line rather than obey their orders to hold
                        position. The "crusader" army was crushed, with thousands killed and 10,000
                        taken prisoner, and only Tamerlane's attack on the Turks saved Europe from
                        further Turkish conquests [until
                        later].

                        The French were particularly prone to treating anyone who was not
                        of gentle birth with contempt. The French knights [at least until
                        the English killed most of the really bull-headed "there they are; let's
                        charge 'em" types]lost many a battle because the only trick in their
                        repertoire was a thundering charge straight down the enemy's throat,
                        regardless of the tactical situation. "Honor" required that they charge,
                        whether a charge was appropriate or not.

                        One of the worst aspects of historical chivalry was its overweening emphasis
                        on personal pride and glory, with the accompanying class arrogance that
                        deemed anyone not of gentle birth as sub-human. The bone-headed arrogance of
                        many mediaeval knights is, alas, as fully docmentable as the high-minded
                        nobility that we choose to emphasize. Riding down infantry, massacring
                        non-noble "rabble," and holding people without "coat armour" in contempt are
                        documentable, historically valid behaviors, but behaviors that the the SCA
                        has chosen *not* to recreate. Like witch burning, religious wars and not
                        bathing, chivalric
                        arrogance is not part of the "Middle Ages as they should have been."

                        Erich von Kampf, KSCA

                        Paul Eugen Camp
                        Special Collections
                        University of South Florida Library
                        4202 E. Fowler Avenue
                        Tampa, FL 33620


                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: wyvern@... [mailto:wyvern@...]
                        Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 9:21 PM
                        To: SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [SCA-Siege] killing your own


                        On 5 Sep 2002 at 13:57, John Edgerton wrote:

                        > >From an a fighter and a list whose names I will not give. But, it is
                        > interesting what some fighters think of siege engineers and other
                        > missile users. And this was a war not a tournament. .

                        > My view was that they were using a peasant weapon on gentlemen of coat
                        > armor during a tournament, and I felt that was an unchivalrous act.
                        > Therefore, my chivalry required that I put a stop to it. How does
                        > killing some peasants (and they must have been peasants or they
                        > wouldn't have been using missle weapons!) who were using missle
                        > weapons in

                        I don't know who this yahoo is, Jon, but apparently he flunked history if
                        he believed "knight's" never operated missile or siege weapons. =>

                        > tournament reflect poorly on a knight? Later, after consultation with
                        > brother knights, I apologized to all concerend after it was pointed
                        > out to me that they were doing so under direction of the king, and so
                        > were not themselves responsible for the unspeakable crime they were
                        > committing.

                        What a maroon...

                        YIS,
                        Macsen



                        Get medieval at Mad Macsen's
                        http://www.MedievalMart.com/

                        Sponsored by House Wyvern Hall, BBM, East Kingdom, SCA
                        [Email to SCA-Siege-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]

                        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      • Bill Schongar
                        It s sad, really.. what s next - killing newbies in pickle barrel plate because they were obviously peasants who couldn t afford proper armor? Such viglante
                        Message 11 of 12 , Sep 6, 2002
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                          It's sad, really.. what's next - killing newbies in pickle barrel plate
                          because they were obviously peasants who couldn't afford proper armor?

                          Such viglante "justice" ruins the game for other people, and is
                          disgraceful. Any belted member of the chivalry who shows such disrespect
                          for other people's work and right to play does poor service to the
                          ideals and honor that belt signifies.

                          -Liam
                        • Greg_Barbato@pittway.com
                          My Lord, ... Your observations are most correct, but I say to the list: pray thee let it go Its all water under the bridge, and the Knight did Appoligize,
                          Message 12 of 12 , Sep 6, 2002
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                            My Lord,
                            You wrote:

                            >One of the worst aspects of historical chivalry was its
                            >overweening emphasis on personal pride and glory, with the
                            >accompanying class arrogance that deemed anyone not of gentle
                            >birth as sub-human. The bone-headed arrogance of many mediaeval
                            >knights is, alas, as fully docmentable as the high-minded nobility
                            >that we choose to emphasize. Riding down infantry, massacring
                            >non-noble "rabble," and holding people without "coat armour" in
                            >contempt are documentable, historically valid behaviors, but
                            >behaviors that the the SCA has chosen *not* to recreate. Like witch
                            >burning, religious wars and not bathing, chivalric arrogance is not
                            >part of the "Middle Ages as they should have been."
                            >Erich von Kampf, KSCA
                            >Paul Eugen Camp

                            Your observations are most correct, but I say to the list:
                            "pray thee 'let it go'"
                            Its all water under the bridge, and the Knight did Appoligize,
                            I know, I was there.
                            Lord Gregorio de Sicilia
                            engineer / owner / operator of the Trebuchet.
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