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Misc cannon thoughts

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  • brother_fjordhr
    I have been tinkering with my air powered cannons (yse, I know that they are not permitted in SCA wars). That got me to thinking. Would it be permissible to
    Message 1 of 23 , May 31, 2002
      I have been tinkering with my air powered cannons (yse, I know that they are not permitted in SCA wars). That got me to thinking. Would it be permissible to have a NON-war cannon competition? Things to do at a cannon competition could include.

      I. Shoot SCA legal siege projectiles 80yards at 45 degrees, anything over disqualifies (incorporate 45# safety valves on all cannons) closest to 80yards with 45 degree barrel angle wins
      II. Shoot for accuracy
      III. Score on period appearance
      IV. Shoots with drafted crews following written or verbal directions (helps us think about the steps in safely operating these cannons)
      V. Anything else that anyone can come up with that is safe

      Aside from the main value, that of allowing us to compete with our toys. This type of competition could allow us to demonstrate, over a period of time and wit some refinements, that cannons can be a fun and safe addition to the game
    • klozi@aol.com
      I would agree with this, and it is being done already albeit in a different setting. The Pumpkin Chucking contests are international now. They shoot for
      Message 2 of 23 , Jun 2 6:57 AM
        I would agree with this, and it is being done already albeit in a different
        setting. The Pumpkin Chucking contests are international now. They shoot
        for distance, but I'm guessing that if we wanted to start a cannon
        development movement medieval style we could find some experts in cannon
        development that would be wild to help. They would know a huge amount about
        air-cannon safety and construction.

        Contact information for Punkin Chunkin
        Contact us by phone 302-684-8196 or Fax 302-684-8197
        chunkinfo@...

        Oscar



        In a message dated 06/01/2002 2:39:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
        brother_fjordhr@... writes:


        > Would it be permissible to have a NON-war cannon competition? Things to do
        > at a cannon competition could include.
        >
        > I. Shoot SCA legal siege projectiles 80yards at 45 degrees, anything
        > over disqualifies (incorporate 45# safety valves on all cannons) closest to
        > 80yards with 45 degree barrel angle wins
        > II. Shoot for accuracy
        > III. Score on period appearance
        > IV. Shoots with drafted crews following written or verbal directions
        > (helps us think about the steps in safely operating these cannons)
        > V. Anything else that anyone can come up with that is safe
        >
        > Aside from the main value, that of allowing us to compete with our toys.
        > This type of competition could allow us to demonstrate, over a period of
        > time and wit some refinements, that cannons can be a fun and safe addition
        > to the game
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Brother Fjordhr
        My first exposure to pumpkin chucking, funny enough, was an article in the Wall Street Journal. Since then I have seen a number of articles on it and a
        Message 3 of 23 , Jun 2 10:59 AM
          My first exposure to pumpkin chucking, funny enough, was an article in
          the Wall Street Journal. Since then I have seen a number of articles on
          it and a section, which I have on tape, in a PBS siege engines special.
          While it looks like a lot of fun, it is not what I have in mind. And,
          being that I am not in the Mid-West, potatoes are a lot cheaper to shoot
          here than pumpkins.

          I think that "non-war" failed to express my thought, I do not mean at a
          separate event. What I mean is as a an activity separate from the
          battles (where the rules clearly disallow the use of air-cannons). The
          Wars (in the big term, the large gatherings) are where we all get
          together so they would be the best place but the cannon shoot would be a
          separate activity, similar to archery. Not a battle activity.

          One large difference between this and pumpkin chucking is that there
          would be a greater concern for period appearance. A second difference
          would be the attempt to conform to SCA siege rules wherever they may be
          applicable.

          As I said, one of the main purposes is just to get together with others
          and shoot. Another benefit may be to provide us with impetus to improve
          our cannons, both in appearance and designs. A third benefit is that we
          would be able to increase te amount of exposure to them within the SCA
          and allow us to show they are attractive (visually appropriate to the
          middle ages), safe, and fun.

          I am avoiding saying that this is stage one of a many year project
          because I know from experience that some people get very upset at any
          thoughts in that direction. For now I would like to just work on having
          fun and increasing exposure.

          All this having been said, I will begin work on air cannons that conform
          to SCA siege engine rules (other than the obvious one) and present an
          attempt at period appearance if anyone else is also interested in doing
          so. I recommend that the 45# safety valves be incorporated into all
          designs in order to insure that the pressures are kept well into the
          safe range, to level the playing field, and to make loading fool proof
          (keeping in mind that nothing can be truly fool proof because fools are
          so terribly ingenious).

          As for why I am pushing air cannons, SCA is my wife's game and I am
          looking to do something that interests me while I am at these things.
          And, I enjoy playing with my cannons.



          On Sunday, June 2, 2002, at 06:57 AM, klozi@... wrote:

          > I would agree with this, and it is being done already albeit in a
          > different
          > setting. The Pumpkin Chucking contests are international now. They
          > shoot
          > for distance, but I'm guessing that if we wanted to start a cannon
          > development movement medieval style we could find some experts in cannon
          > development that would be wild to help. They would know a huge amount
          > about
          > air-cannon safety and construction.
          >
          > Contact information for Punkin Chunkin
          > Contact us by phone 302-684-8196 or Fax 302-684-8197
          > chunkinfo@...
        • John Edgerton
          ... I would suggest that you perhaps widen your approach and not limit the events to just air cannon. If you try to encourage the inclusion of all types of SCA
          Message 4 of 23 , Jun 2 1:31 PM
            Brother Fjordhr wrote:

            > My first exposure to pumpkin chucking, funny enough, was an article
            > in
            > the Wall Street Journal. Since then I have seen a number of articles
            > on
            > it and a section, which I have on tape, in a PBS siege engines
            > special.
            > While it looks like a lot of fun, it is not what I have in mind. And,
            >
            > being that I am not in the Mid-West, potatoes are a lot cheaper to
            > shoot
            > here than pumpkins.
            >
            > I think that "non-war" failed to express my thought, I do not mean at
            > a
            > separate event. What I mean is as a an activity separate from the
            > battles (where the rules clearly disallow the use of air-cannons).
            > The
            > Wars (in the big term, the large gatherings) are where we all get
            > together so they would be the best place but the cannon shoot would be
            > a
            > separate activity, similar to archery. Not a battle activity.
            >
            > One large difference between this and pumpkin chucking is that there
            > would be a greater concern for period appearance. A second difference
            >
            > would be the attempt to conform to SCA siege rules wherever they may
            > be
            > applicable.
            >
            > As I said, one of the main purposes is just to get together with
            > others
            > and shoot. Another benefit may be to provide us with impetus to
            > improve
            > our cannons, both in appearance and designs. A third benefit is that
            > we
            > would be able to increase te amount of exposure to them within the SCA
            >
            > and allow us to show they are attractive (visually appropriate to the
            > middle ages), safe, and fun.
            >
            > I am avoiding saying that this is stage one of a many year project
            > because I know from experience that some people get very upset at any
            > thoughts in that direction. For now I would like to just work on
            > having
            > fun and increasing exposure.
            >
            > All this having been said, I will begin work on air cannons that
            > conform
            > to SCA siege engine rules (other than the obvious one) and present an
            > attempt at period appearance if anyone else is also interested in
            > doing
            > so. I recommend that the 45# safety valves be incorporated into all
            > designs in order to insure that the pressures are kept well into the
            > safe range, to level the playing field, and to make loading fool proof
            >
            > (keeping in mind that nothing can be truly fool proof because fools
            > are
            > so terribly ingenious).
            >
            > As for why I am pushing air cannons, SCA is my wife's game and I am
            > looking to do something that interests me while I am at these things.
            > And, I enjoy playing with my cannons.
            >

            I would suggest that you perhaps widen your approach and not limit the
            events to just air cannon. If you try to encourage the inclusion of all
            types of SCA cannon at SCA siege competitions. Include all sca cannon
            and siege engines in a competition. The other siege engineers that use
            springs, rope, etc. will be also interested in seeing how the air cannon
            function. And the more engines out there shooting, the more likely more
            of the populace will be out there to watch and also see the cannon in
            use.

            Talk to those in charge of various siege competitions and see if they
            will allow for a cannon division that also includes air cannon. If they
            are not being used in combat, it could be possible to get permission to
            include them in controlled target type competitions on a experimental
            basis. I do not have the current rules in front of me..... do they
            exclude any use of air cannon or just their use in combat?

            If the air cannon designs work and are safe, then more engineers might
            be interested in trying them as well, particularly if there is a chance
            of using them, at least in competitions if not in combat. The more
            people that are interested in them, the more minds working on making
            them safe and accurate and period in appearance.

            If after a period of time they have shown a reliable safety record when
            used in competitions, then there would be a track record to refer to
            when trying to get them allowed for use in combat at a future date when
            the marshallete might be more open to considering their use.

            Jon
          • Evian Blackthorn
            ... Aha! But the draw weight limits for combat bows are found in the section of the SCA Missile Combat Rules document that is entitled Missile Combat
            Message 5 of 23 , Jun 3 3:44 PM
              Ld Charles Mackinnon wrote:
              >Keep in mind that the Society combat archery rules
              >don't explicitly state that the draw-weight limits are
              >only for combat archery.

              Aha! But the draw weight limits for combat bows are found
              in the section of the "SCA Missile Combat Rules" document
              that is entitled "Missile Combat Equipment". The first words
              of this section, under "General", are, "All missile
              COMBATANTS (emphasis mine) bear final responsibility for the
              condition and safety of their own equipment."
              That pretty well establishes that all that follows
              applies to missile COMBATANTS, or in other words, applies to
              COMBAT situations.

              The "Siege Engines Handbook" , under "Siege Rules", and
              then under "General Siege Engine Regulations", which has a
              direct correspondance with the "General" section above, does
              not have anything about combat included in the entire
              section. There is an explanation of a provision that "No
              engine will be discharged while any non-crew person is
              within the range of the moving parts" that uses the word
              'fighter' as one of these non-crew persons, but it also uses
              'trebuchet' as the type of engine that can not be
              discharged. It is only a very generic example. Just because
              it states that: "(i.e. , a trebuchet will not be discharged
              while a fighter is standing anywhere in the path of the arm,
              front or back)" does not mean that it is allowed to
              discharge that same trebuchet while a non-combatant is in
              the path of the arm, nor does it allow a mangonal or onager
              to be fired while a non-combatant is in the path of the arm.
              The 'trebuchet' and 'fighter' are used as an example of only
              ONE of the situations that might be encountered. It is not
              used to show that it is applicable only to combat
              situations. This is in Rule 3.

              Rule 2 states that "Direct fire engines shall not be
              discharged against PERSONNEL (emphasis mine) within a range
              of fifteen (15) feet. Note, it uses the word 'personnel',
              not 'combatants'. Looking at Rule 8, we see that "Any
              material approved for use in devices ON THE BATTLEFIELD
              (emphasis mine) may be used in the construction of engines,
              provided the materials are sufficient to assure the safety
              of the engine." That looks to me like a clear example that
              if the material is not specifically approved for use in
              engines (devices) "on the battlefield", it might very well
              require special approval to be used in engines (devices)
              that are not "on the battlefield", or the material might
              even be automatically prohibited.

              There is a difference in missile COMBAT and missile
              firing in a non-combat situation. The combat archery rules
              (SCA Missile Combat Rules document) is specifically worded
              and geared to COMBAT only, by it's very nature and title.
              The siege rules (Siege Engines Handbook document) is not
              specifically worded nor geared to COMBAT only, by it's
              nature or title. It is not called the COMBAT Siege Engines
              Handbook. That is the difference.

              Ld Charles Mackinnon continued:
              >That limitation is implied by the fact that they are
              >promulgated via the Marshalate, which has authority
              >over activities on the battlefield, rather than the
              >Seneschalate which has authority over the Society as
              >a whole.

              The Marshalate also promulgates the "Equestrian" rules,
              even though fighting from horseback is prohibited in those
              rules, so they have NO place on the battlefield. The
              Marshalate has authority over ALL activities that are
              considered 'martial' in nature, whether it takes place on
              the battlefield, or off the battlefield, so the fact that
              the Marshalate promulgated the rules is not applicable to
              whether the rules apply only ON the battlefield or not. If
              rules being promulgated by the Marshalate is the determining
              factor on whether those rules apply on or off the
              battlefield, then people are sure going to be in for a shock
              when someone decides to use a real throwing spear in combat,
              with the explanation that, "Well, since the Marshalate
              promulgated the Thrown Weapons rules, that allows them to be
              used in Combat on the battlefield."

              The last point I would like to make is that the 'cannon'
              used at Pennsic is not, by definition, a "Siege Engine".
              Refer to "SCA Siege Engine Criteria", the last sentence.
              "For the purposes of administration, any device not designed
              to deliver these types of ammunition will not be considered
              a siege engine....". Also, the cannon used at Pennsic does
              not deliver ANY projectile. All it does is go "BOOM". The
              prohibition against using compressed or ignited gasses or
              liquids, or combusting materials of any kind, ends with the
              words "to power projectiles." If it didn't state that, fires
              of any kind, and especially propane fires, would be
              prohibited at all SCA functions. So would using your
              automobile be prohibited, as it has an 'engine' that used
              combusting gassified liquid to power it. Yes, you can make
              an air powered cannon. You just can't use it to shoot a
              projectile.

              Brother Fjordhr wrote:
              >From what you are describing the problem is not one
              >of engineering, but rather one of politics and prejudice.

              Gee, that's what I was trying to say. The problem is not
              that safe air powered cannons cannot be made (one has been
              made, that I know of, and was used for some time without
              incident). It is not that safe spring powered cannons cannot
              be made, though they are a WHOLE lot harder to make safe
              (from what I understand, none have yet been successfully
              made and demonstrated safe). The problem is that the DSMSE
              is "vehemently" opposed to cannon on the battlefield, under
              any conditions, and the SEM is also opposed to them on the
              battlefield. How opposed the SEM actually is has never been
              stated by him, at least not here on this list, but the
              'vehemently' used above was used by the DSMSE, here on this
              list, to charactarize his own opposition to cannon. That IS
              politics and prejudice, not engineering!

              Evian Blackthorn
              138 days and counting,
              (until we get a new SEM and DSMSE)
            • Evian Blackthorn
              ... No! They both still fall under the Marshalate. Only if they decided that the USE (firing) of non-combat engines did NOT fall under the authority of the
              Message 6 of 23 , Jun 3 5:11 PM
                Xavier wrote:
                >So would a kingdom (such as the Midrealm) that
                >specifically separates combat and non-combat engines
                >into different branches of its marshallate be violating the
                >Society rules?

                No! They both still fall under the Marshalate. Only if they
                decided that the USE (firing) of non-combat engines did NOT
                fall under the authority of the Marshalate would they be
                violating SCA rules. SCA Siege Rules specifically give
                Kingdoms the right to 'structure' their Siege Marshalate in
                whatever way they choose. This can be found in the
                "Introduction" of the "Siege Engines Handbook". As I read
                it, a Kingdom is not even required to have a Siege
                Marshalate to participate in Siege Engineering. The regular
                rattan combat Marshalate can serve in that capacity, if the
                Kingdom decides to go that route. Read the "Introduction"
                for yourself, or the whole thing for that matter, and see if
                you can find any such requirement.

                >Must any engine or model thereof built for A&S
                >purposes conform to the combat regulations in size,
                >power, and ammunition?

                No! It can be built. It can be shown. It can be judged. It
                can be demonstrated. Photos of the demonstration can be
                included in the display for A & S. It can even win the A & S
                competition. It just can't be 'demonstrated' AT THE EVENT by
                firing it. Only if it is USED (fired) does it have to
                comform to SCA Siege Rules. Of course, engines (other than
                cannon) that do not comform to the Siege regulations in
                size, power, or ammunition, ARE ocasionally USED (fired) at
                events, in "demo mode", or in competitions, or maybe even
                for A & S. That this is technically against SCA Siege Rules
                is rather conveniently ignored by the Marshalate on a
                regular basis. With cannon, especially air cannon, I am sure
                it would not be so ignored. The SCA is such a great place
                for 'selective' enforcment of the rules. Like the guy I saw
                who was ordered off the field for excessive force, but the
                Knight he hit, who continued to fight on until the hold was
                called to remove the fighter, after he got back to his feet,
                of course, was not even spoken to about failing to call the
                shot that threw him almost ten feet through the air. If it
                wasn't hard enough to be "acknowledged", how could it have
                been "excessive"? Maybe the Knight just 'jumped' backwards
                ten feet while running forwards at full speed???

                >Both these seem (to me) to be ludicrous on their
                >very face. I think the idea that all engines must fall
                >under SCA combat rules is an overbroad
                >interpretation.

                I also think it is ludicrous, and an overbroad
                interpretation. But then, I am only trying to show what I
                THINK the DSMSE will rule about cannons, if he rules at all.
                I am not expressing my opinion about what I think should be
                done. Oh, he will issue a specific ruling about that
                specific cannon, IF someone actually makes an air powered
                cannon, and applies for permission to demonstrate it. He
                already has ruled on one such air cannon, after he judged it
                absolutely safe, by banning it. But I do not think he will
                actually give a blanket ruling before the fact. The question
                about air cannons being allowed for demos or competitions
                has been asked on this list. He has been challenged to
                answer. You saw the challenge, did you not? He has NOT
                answered, has he, even though he IS on this list?

                All of my statements are only my very 'un-official'
                opinions on the subject, not a RULING by someone in
                authority. I have NO authority. Take them for what YOU think
                they are worth. And then wait and see if I was right. I have
                been, so far, at least most of the time. But do not just
                take my word for what the rules state, or what the rules
                mean. Read them yourself. Then interpret them yourself.

                Evian Blackthorn
                138 days and counting,
                (until we get a new SEM and DSMSE)
              • Evian Blackthorn
                Well put, Master Gunner Hawkyns! Evian Blackthorn
                Message 7 of 23 , Jun 3 6:07 PM
                  Well put, Master Gunner Hawkyns!

                  Evian Blackthorn
                • Kazimierz Verkmastare
                  Firm and honest answer The rules are a fine balance for playability on the battlefield. Safety, appearance, the response of non-engineers, all this and more
                  Message 8 of 23 , Jun 4 10:40 PM
                    Firm and honest answer

                    The rules are a fine balance for playability on the battlefield. Safety, appearance, the response of non-engineers, all this and more was taken into account when developing these rules.

                    If you want to work on any type of cannon as an A&S, demo, target, etc... and you remain within the rules of the SCA overall (I believe there are rules against powder weapons actually being discharged in the SCA corporate (not the marshallate) rules, and that the cannoneers who start and stop battles have received special dispensation) you will not have any problems or complaints from me - unless you try to take it onto or use it on the combat field.

                    I am responsible for and am charged with moderating a very small part of the game - combat siege engines. Anything else is not only not in my scope of authority, but it would be involved in such a different environment that it would require different rules (and restrictions) entirely.

                    So build away, just don't plan on using your cannon creations on the combat field.

                    I hope that is honest, clear, and concise enough for everyone

                    Kaz



                    *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

                    On 6/3/2002 at 8:07 PM Evian Blackthorn wrote:

                    >Well put, Master Gunner Hawkyns!
                    >
                    >Evian Blackthorn
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >Get medieval at Mad Macsen's
                    >http://www.MedievalMart.com/
                    >
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                    >[Email to SCA-Siege-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]
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                  • Fergus
                    Master Kaz, You state below that the response of non-engineers was taken into account when creating the rules. Who were these non-engineers and was it a
                    Message 9 of 23 , Jun 5 12:48 PM
                      Master Kaz,

                      You state below that "the response of non-engineers" was taken
                      into account when creating the rules. Who were these "non-engineers"
                      and was it a majority of SCA or just a few people from your neck
                      of the woods? Just wondering because I have asked many folks in my
                      neck of the woods what they felt about cannon and almost all of them
                      said that it sounds cool and they would like to see it on the field.


                      Next you state appearance. Well there are a couple of designs out
                      there that look really period, More so then my Trebs ever have. So
                      this point is moot

                      Safety, the all encompassing word in the rules. Sure there are some
                      unsafe cannon designs out there, but there are also unsafe Treb,
                      Ballista, and catapult designs also. You stated in an email a couple
                      of months ago that you had never seen a safe cannon design, if I
                      remember correctly with-in a couple of days you had 2 folks send
                      you links to their plans, which Looked like they would meet all safety
                      requirements before the ban was even mentioned.

                      Lord Fergus mac Conal
                      Deputy of Siege, AnTir


                      At Wednesday, 05 June 2002, you wrote:

                      >Firm and honest answer
                      >
                      >The rules are a fine balance for playability on the battlefield.
                      Safety,
                      >appearance, the response of non-engineers, all this and more was taken
                      >into account when developing these rules.
                      >
                      >If you want to work on any type of cannon as an A&S, demo, target, etc.
                      >.. and you remain within the rules of the SCA overall (I believe there
                      >are rules against powder weapons actually being discharged in the SCA
                      >corporate (not the marshallate) rules, and that the cannoneers who
                      start
                      >and stop battles have received special dispensation) you will not have
                      >any problems or complaints from me - unless you try to take it onto or
                      >use it on the combat field.
                      >
                      >I am responsible for and am charged with moderating a very small part
                      >of the game - combat siege engines. Anything else is not only not in
                      >my scope of authority, but it would be involved in such a different
                      environment
                      >that it would require different rules (and restrictions) entirely.
                      >
                      >So build away, just don't plan on using your cannon creations on
                      the combat
                      >field.
                      >
                      >I hope that is honest, clear, and concise enough for everyone
                      >
                      >Kaz
                      >
                      >*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
                      >
                      >On 6/3/2002 at 8:07 PM Evian Blackthorn wrote:
                      >
                      >>Well put, Master Gunner Hawkyns!
                      >>
                      >>Evian Blackthorn
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>Get medieval at Mad Macsen's
                      >>http://www.MedievalMart.com/
                      >>
                      >>Sponsored by House Wyvern Hall, BBM, East Kingdom, SCA
                      >>[Email to SCA-Siege-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]
                      >>
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                    • Evian Blackthorn
                      ... snip ... Well, I guess Kaz has proven me wrong here. That is a firm and honest answer. I never expected it. Sorry! I was wrong! As I read this post of his,
                      Message 10 of 23 , Jun 5 3:24 PM
                        Kazimierz Verkmastare wrote:

                        >Firm and honest answer
                        snip
                        >If you want to work on any type of cannon as an A&S,
                        >demo, target, etc... and you remain within the rules of the
                        >SCA overall ....snip....you will not have any problems or
                        >complaints from me - unless you try to take it onto or use
                        >it on the combat field.

                        Well, I guess Kaz has proven me wrong here. That is a
                        firm and honest answer. I never expected it. Sorry! I was
                        wrong!

                        As I read this post of his, I now believe it is okay for
                        those of you that want to build non-gunpowder powered cannon
                        to do so. And you can use them at SCA events (after
                        inspection for safety by the appropriate Marshal, of
                        course). You just will not be allowed to take or use them on
                        the combat field. As long as no combat is involved, you can
                        shoot projectiles to your heart's content.

                        But I do have one important question to ask, Kaz. Which
                        Marshal IS the appropriate Marshal to do the safety
                        inspection? I realize that this might vary from Kingdom to
                        Kingdom, but I would think that an answer such as "the
                        Marshal-in-charge of the event, or whichever other Marshal
                        has been designated by local Kingdom rules, if any, would be
                        the proper Marshal." might be the best answer. That would
                        seem to me to be the main thrust of the Siege Engines
                        Handbook wording about the Marshalate for seige, and each
                        Kingdom's right to structure their siege marshalate as they
                        see fit. I could accept that answer, and would not find it
                        evasive or unclear. Granted, it would require anyone wanting
                        to get their cannon inspected to do a thorough and careful
                        reading of their Kingdom's rules about such things, but they
                        should do that anyway. BEFORE they even begin to design
                        their devices!

                        Evian Blackthorn
                        of THE WEB
                        136 days and counting
                      • wyvern@megahits.com
                        ... If I may interject, the appropriate officer to approve such a demo weapon would be the event autocrat. Unless otherwise defined by your kingdom, the
                        Message 11 of 23 , Jun 5 3:52 PM
                          On 5 Jun 2002 at 17:24, Evian Blackthorn wrote:

                          > But I do have one important question to ask, Kaz. Which
                          > Marshal IS the appropriate Marshal to do the safety
                          > inspection? I realize that this might vary from Kingdom to

                          If I may interject, the appropriate officer to approve such a demo
                          weapon would be the event autocrat. Unless otherwise defined by your
                          kingdom, the marshalate's authority doesn't specifically extend into this
                          arena. Granted, the autocrat may wish to consult with members of the
                          marshalate before rendering a decision, but it's ultimately the autocrat's
                          call.

                          (FWIW, this is the procedure I've followed for allowing black powder
                          cannon demos at events. Remember, as the SCA's legal
                          representative for the event, the autocrat always gets the last word.)

                          YIS,
                          Macsen
                        • Seamus' Stuff
                          Usually when things like this occurs the autocrats will get the marshal to take care of the situation. That is as long as things like siege engines can be
                          Message 12 of 23 , Jun 5 4:06 PM
                            Usually when things like this occurs the autocrats will get the marshal to take
                            care of the situation. That is as long as things like siege engines can be used
                            at the site in the first place. And when the Marshal knows that I am on site,
                            they end up coming to me for my opinion on the device. Though the person who
                            actually has the last say is the Seneschal of the local group holding the event.
                            The ONLY SCA legal representative is the Seseschal. The Sesenschal is the only
                            person who can sign a legal contract. This includes contracts for event sites.

                            Though I doubt that as long as the site doesn't have any restrictions on what
                            can be used, most would not have any problems. As long as you had enough people
                            to keep the range safe and had most common sense restrictions on usage in place
                            (I say common sense since different power devices will create the need for
                            different safety setups).

                            Seamus

                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: wyvern@... [mailto:wyvern@...]
                            > Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 5:52 PM
                            > To: SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: Re: [SCA-Siege] Misc cannon thoughts
                            >
                            >
                            > On 5 Jun 2002 at 17:24, Evian Blackthorn wrote:
                            >
                            > > But I do have one important question to ask, Kaz. Which
                            > > Marshal IS the appropriate Marshal to do the safety
                            > > inspection? I realize that this might vary from Kingdom to
                            >
                            > If I may interject, the appropriate officer to approve such a demo
                            > weapon would be the event autocrat. Unless otherwise defined by your
                            > kingdom, the marshalate's authority doesn't specifically extend into this
                            > arena. Granted, the autocrat may wish to consult with members of the
                            > marshalate before rendering a decision, but it's ultimately the autocrat's
                            > call.
                            >
                            > (FWIW, this is the procedure I've followed for allowing black powder
                            > cannon demos at events. Remember, as the SCA's legal
                            > representative for the event, the autocrat always gets the last word.)
                            >
                            > YIS,
                            > Macsen
                            >
                            >
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                          • Evian Blackthorn
                            ... This is only partially correct. The event autocrat, or as Seamus pointed out, the Seneschal of the host group, is the proper officer to approve the
                            Message 13 of 23 , Jun 5 4:16 PM
                              Macsen wrote:
                              >If I may interject, the appropriate officer to approve
                              >such a demo weapon would be the event autocrat.

                              This is only partially correct. The event autocrat, or as
                              Seamus pointed out, the Seneschal of the host group, is the
                              proper officer to approve the 'general' use of demo weapons
                              at the event. If he says "No demonstrations of cannon." then
                              no cannons can be demonstrated. If the demonstrating of
                              cannon will be allowed, the cannon (or other siege engine)
                              still needs to be inspected. I asked specifically which
                              Marshal should inspect the weapon for safety, and assumed
                              that the overall approval to demonstrate them would already
                              be taken care of. That inspection for safety is not the
                              Autocrat's or Seneschal's role. That falls solely to the
                              Marshalate. Yes, the Autocrat or Seneschal can overrule the
                              MIC, but only to disallow the use of all cannon, or maybe
                              even a specific cannon. He cannot overrule the MIC if the
                              MIC says "No, it is unsafe, and can't be used."

                              So, who does the safety inspection?

                              Evian
                            • wyvern@megahits.com
                              ... As noted, this is an interkingdom anthropology issue. In the East, the autocrat runs the event. The seneschal, OTOH, has only two options to overrule the
                              Message 14 of 23 , Jun 5 4:29 PM
                                On 5 Jun 2002 at 18:16, Evian Blackthorn wrote:

                                > This is only partially correct. The event autocrat, or as
                                > Seamus pointed out, the Seneschal of the host group, is the
                                > proper officer to approve the 'general' use of demo weapons
                                > at the event. If he says "No demonstrations of cannon." then

                                As noted, this is an interkingdom anthropology issue. In the East, the
                                autocrat runs the event. The seneschal, OTOH, has only two options to
                                overrule the autocrat: (1) remove him/her altogether, or (2) withdraw
                                SCA sanction from the event altogether. Either option is rather
                                extreme and has never, to my knowledge, been exercised. =>

                                > no cannons can be demonstrated. If the demonstrating of
                                > cannon will be allowed, the cannon (or other siege engine)
                                > still needs to be inspected. I asked specifically which
                                > Marshal should inspect the weapon for safety, and assumed
                                > that the overall approval to demonstrate them would already
                                > be taken care of. That inspection for safety is not the

                                The point is that it would be the autocrat -- or whoever is running the
                                event -- who would make that call. Since no branch of the marshalate
                                has clear authority, they might be asked to *advise* the autocrat, but
                                the final decision wouldn't be theirs.

                                > even a specific cannon. He cannot overrule the MIC if the
                                > MIC says "No, it is unsafe, and can't be used."

                                With respect, I believe he can in this particular instance. The MIC can
                                forbid its use on the combat field but has no authority to forbid its use
                                elsewhere as a demonstration piece. (And the physical square of
                                ground that is "the combat field" is only that when the autocrat says it is.

                                > So, who does the safety inspection?

                                Whoever the autocrat trusts to give a good opinion.

                                YIS,
                                Macsen
                              • wyvern@megahits.com
                                ... This is an interkingdom anthropology issue that I should have anticipated having just gone through it on another list. In the East, it is the autocrat who
                                Message 15 of 23 , Jun 5 4:31 PM
                                  On 5 Jun 2002 at 18:06, Seamus' Stuff wrote:

                                  > say is the Seneschal of the local group holding the event. The ONLY SCA
                                  > legal representative is the Seseschal. The Sesenschal is the only
                                  > person who can sign a legal contract. This includes contracts for event
                                  > sites.

                                  This is an interkingdom anthropology issue that I should have
                                  anticipated having just gone through it on another list. In the East, it
                                  is the autocrat who is the legal representative of the SCA at an event
                                  (essentially serving as a special deputy seneschal). The autocrat may
                                  very well *be* the local seneschal, but that frequently isn't the case.

                                  Wherever I use the term "autocrat," I'm referring to the SCA's legal
                                  representative for the event -- whoever that may be according to local
                                  policy and custom. =)

                                  YIS,
                                  Macsen
                                • Just Bri'g
                                  I think you answered your own question. If you are lucky enough to live in a Kingdom where Siege Marshals are more than just a figment of imagination, then
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Jun 5 4:49 PM
                                    I think you answered your own question.
                                    If you are lucky enough to live in a Kingdom where Siege Marshals are more
                                    than just a figment of imagination, then that duty would fall on them.
                                    We try very hard to get the word out so that folks can get their engines
                                    authorized before they take them off to an event where there may not be a
                                    siege marshal.
                                    When, however, that does happen, one would think that that duty would fall
                                    to the Senior Marshals and/or MIC of the event.

                                    Baintighearna Bri'g ingen Betha'in
                                    ~Kingdom Chirurgeonate Deputy for Apprentices
                                    ~Kingdom Chirurgeonate Deputy for Web
                                    ~Kingdom Herbal Guild Web Editor
                                    ~Senior Heavy Marshal
                                    ~Junior Archery Marshal, Junior Siege Marshal
                                    ~Generally Gullible

                                    That inspection for safety is not the Autocrat's or
                                    Seneschal's role. That falls solely to the Marshalate.
                                    Yes, the Autocrat or Seneschal can overrule the MIC,
                                    but only to disallow the use of all cannon, or maybe
                                    even a specific cannon. He cannot overrule the MIC if the
                                    MIC says "No, it is unsafe, and can't be used."

                                    So, who does the safety inspection?


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Evian Blackthorn
                                    Thanks, Macsen, for your opinions, but I ll wait for Kaz to answer the question. I might get on his case every chance I get, but he IS the Deputy Society
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Jun 5 6:54 PM
                                      Thanks, Macsen, for your opinions, but I'll wait for Kaz to
                                      answer the question. I might get on his case every chance I
                                      get, but he IS the Deputy Society Marshal for Siege
                                      Engineering, and as such, is the closest person we have on
                                      this list, unless the SEM is on this list, to someone who
                                      can give us an 'official' answer. I know he said that he was
                                      only responsible for COMBAT siege engines, but he is still
                                      closer than either you or I to things concerning seige
                                      engine rules.

                                      Evian
                                    • wyvern@megahits.com
                                      ... Read the requisite documents. Neither the DSM nor SEM has jurisdiction. If you choose to allow people with no authority to rule your enjoymnet of the
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Jun 5 6:58 PM
                                        On 5 Jun 2002 at 20:54, Evian Blackthorn wrote:

                                        > Thanks, Macsen, for your opinions, but I'll wait for Kaz to
                                        > answer the question. I might get on his case every chance I
                                        > get, but he IS the Deputy Society Marshal for Siege
                                        > Engineering, and as such, is the closest person we have on
                                        > this list, unless the SEM is on this list, to someone who
                                        > can give us an 'official' answer.

                                        Read the requisite documents. Neither the DSM nor SEM has
                                        jurisdiction. If you choose to allow people with no authority to rule your
                                        enjoymnet of the SCA, knock your socks off.

                                        YIS,
                                        Macsen
                                      • Oohashi Katsutoshi
                                        Greetings, The Society Deputy for Siege Engines, (Master Kazimierz Verkmastare) posted on Thursday, 21 Mar of this year: In regards to the color and
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Jul 4, 2002
                                          Greetings,

                                          The Society Deputy for Siege Engines, (Master Kazimierz Verkmastare)
                                          posted on Thursday, 21 Mar of this year:

                                          "In regards to the color and construction of ammunition

                                          Yellow will be reserved (within missile weapons) for siege engine
                                          ammunition as defined in the Society Siege Rules. Heads will be
                                          marked in yellow, rocks will be marked with a significant coverage of
                                          yellow, and shafts will be marked with a significant percentage of
                                          coverage of yellow.

                                          The facts are still being collected regarding the 48 inch bolt issue,
                                          and there are good points on both sides. Expect a decision soon.

                                          I am crafting the rule book change items that will be included in the
                                          SEM's quarterly report in the next 24 hours, and will post the exact
                                          wording of the changes regarding the color issue to the list as soon
                                          as approved. Other notices will follow as soon as the official
                                          wording is finalized."

                                          Since no official rule or wording changes have been forthcoming, I am
                                          hesitant to change the East Kingdom rules just yet. I do, however,
                                          highly recommend the use of yellow as a marking color for siege
                                          ammunition (as specified above) at Pennsic.

                                          In Service,

                                          Oohashi Katsutoshi
                                          EK Siege Engineer-General


                                          cc: Ld Brun Canutesson
                                          Middle Kingdom Chief of Artillery
                                          --

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • WBFOUNTAIN@aol.com
                                          Currently the Middle kingdom rules require yellow for siege ammo anyway - so this should not be a problem for us - The 48 rule on the other hand may be an
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Jul 4, 2002
                                            Currently the Middle kingdom rules require yellow for siege ammo anyway -
                                            so this should not be a problem for us - The 48" rule on the other hand may
                                            be an issue for some - Middle rules currently require 36" minimum ballista
                                            bolts - But since the current Society Siege Handbook dictates 48" bolts -
                                            That is what I have been telling people to be making. I did get the Ok for
                                            us to use siloflex for ballista bolt construction for Pennsic. We will be
                                            looking at making this a permanent change during the activities at Pennsic.

                                            The question I have is: Is the additional weight and stiffness of
                                            siloflex when compared to golf tubes something to be concerned over? Do they
                                            hit too hard? Do they hit hard enough to be a hazard? Any input on this
                                            would be appreciated.

                                            Ld Brun Canutesson
                                            Middle Kingdom Chief of Artillery


                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • kincain
                                            ... they ... I cannot speak of the hit charitoristics, but I know that the quality of flight is at stake as well as the fact that many weapons will need to
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Jul 4, 2002
                                              > The question I have is: Is the additional weight and stiffness of
                                              > siloflex when compared to golf tubes something to be concerned over? Do
                                              they
                                              > hit too hard? Do they hit hard enough to be a hazard? Any input on this
                                              > would be appreciated.
                                              >
                                              > Ld Brun Canutesson
                                              > Middle Kingdom Chief of Artillery

                                              I cannot speak of the hit charitoristics, but I know that the quality of
                                              "flight" is at stake as well as the fact that many weapons will need to be
                                              modified.
                                              If the ammo has to hit as hard as a sword, and tip first to count, then
                                              these points are important.
                                              Docmo.


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                                            • Marlin Stout
                                              ... Here in Ansteorra we have an engineer who has built composite bolts. He uses a golf tube for the back of the bolt, with enough siloflex added to the
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Jul 4, 2002
                                                WBFOUNTAIN@... wrote:
                                                >
                                                > The question I have is: Is the additional weight and stiffness of
                                                > siloflex when compared to golf tubes something to be concerned over?
                                                > Do they
                                                > hit too hard? Do they hit hard enough to be a hazard? Any input on
                                                > this
                                                > would be appreciated.
                                                >
                                                > Ld Brun Canutesson
                                                > Middle Kingdom Chief of Artillery
                                                >

                                                Here in Ansteorra we have an engineer who has built 'composite' bolts.
                                                He uses a golf tube for the back of the bolt, with enough siloflex added
                                                to the front to make the 48" length. They fly well, hit smartly (but not
                                                too hard), and seem to be very good missiles overall.

                                                Ld Charles MacKinnon
                                                Southern Region Deputy Siege Marshal,
                                                Ansteorra
                                              • Mark Lindsay
                                                I have used both the siloflex and spliced golftubes for ballista bolt construction, and I much preffer the siloflex. It s flight charactoristics and
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Jul 4, 2002
                                                  I have used both the siloflex and spliced golftubes for ballista bolt construction, and I much preffer the siloflex. It's flight charactoristics and durabillity are much better than the spliced golftubes. All of my bolts weigh in at between 15.25 - 16.0 ounces and the quality of impact is the same for either material. I have also been using the small "nerf" footballs for the head of my ballista bolts and they work extremely well as well. They have a very solid impact but don't hurt as much as the tennis balls ( I actually had one bolt get 3 kills on one shot). With either material I would recommend using some type of fins to help stabalise the bolt in flight.
                                                  Quinn
                                                  The question I have is: Is the additional weight and stiffness of
                                                  siloflex when compared to golf tubes something to be concerned over? Do they
                                                  hit too hard? Do they hit hard enough to be a hazard? Any input on this
                                                  would be appreciated.

                                                  Ld Brun Canutesson
                                                  Middle Kingdom Chief of Artillery




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