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A thought on a siege structure. Please critique.

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  • Sean Powell
    Hello, I was reading a post concerning combat archery on the armor archive (threads on CA are like bad acne, nothing can be done about it, you shouldn t pick
    Message 1 of 12 , Jul 2, 2010
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      Hello,

      I was reading a post concerning combat archery on the armor archive
      (threads on CA are like bad acne, nothing can be done about it, you
      shouldn't pick at it but you can't help yourself and it keeps coming
      back.) Anyway I was thinking about the archers at Agincort who
      positioned themselves behind a picket fence for protection. Not great
      protection but meant to slow and break up an advancing army. I was
      thinking about how we could do something similar to enhance certain
      scenarios.

      Please critique the following:

      Take a sheet of 3/8" plywood and rip it lengthwise into 3 16"x8'
      sections. To this sheet glue (no screws just in case) a 2x4 on the back
      edge and a 1x2 on the front edge on sides thus making the thinnest part
      1.125" thick (not the striking portion of a weapon but plenty large
      enough not to fit in a bar-grill). Round all corners.

      Build nine 5' long "thrust-and-throw" black siloflex javelins as per the
      standard rules and do not put fins on them. I believe either HD or Lowes
      carries Siloflex in 5' straight lengths but you have to order a bunch
      and give them the sku number for a special order.

      In the back 2x4, drill nine 1.375" holes starting 4" from the end and
      spaced every 11". These holes could be blind or through, not certain
      which is best. The holes should be angled aprox 45 degrees. We now have
      a reasonably light-weight and safe base supporting 8' of picket fence
      then I can force my way through if I push and bend the siloflex but I'm
      not likely to impale myself on if I see it. Even if I do the siloflex
      will bend and the tip is padded. Worst case scenario is the stand gets
      flipped on its back and becomes a tripping hazard... but no more a
      tripping hazard then a fallen fighter with a wooden shield. If it gets
      stepped on while upside down it will flatten and might permanently
      bend/kink the last 2" of the siloflex... and with pipe cutters the
      spears can be shortened 2" and reused. Not like all the pickets at
      Agincort were a regulation length.

      The system is slightly front heavy but not by much. The 2x4 in back
      helps keep it upright. 50 or 55 degrees instead of 45 may also help.

      Repeat for the other 2 strips of plywood for a total of 24' of picket
      wall and 27 pickets. Also paint the base plates grass green for looks.

      As a defense it's not going to kill anyone but it will slow them down a
      little and a few spear men working behind it might put it to use as it
      breaks up formations. Regretably they can be pushed out of the way
      easily but I don't think staking them down is a good idea because the
      stakes will get pulled out and become potentially dangerous. Sand-bags
      (grey so they look like rocks) may be reasonable.

      I can't think of any material that isn't being used on the field already
      for shields or weapons. I have eliminated the hazards that I thought of.
      What have I missed? What is unsafe, unrealistic, illogical or
      impossible? What about it is unfair to game balance? (other then one
      side having built more stuff then the other side)

      I'm open to all critiques and comments.

      Symon de Poitiers (Sean powell)
    • James Peck
      Interesting. It might be OK. I have to think about it. I like the concept. It would probably be easier and more visually appealing (no safety tips) to just
      Message 2 of 12 , Jul 2, 2010
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        Interesting. It might be OK. I have to think about it. I like the concept.



        It would probably be easier and more visually appealing (no safety tips) to
        just build a bunch of free standing archer's pavises with a folding rear
        leg. Those would help provide cover for spears, archers and impede incoming
        attacks a bit. And are already acceptable in many areas, would be dual use
        etc.



        We used these in the "Siege of Constantinople" Acre/East war and it added a
        lot to the strategy. You can also use them to simulate walls that could not
        be knocked down in other scenarios.



        And it is another place to put your groups livery/heraldry.



        Richard Blackmoore



        _____

        From: SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        Of Sean Powell
        Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 11:15 PM
        To: SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [SCA-Siege] A thought on a siege structure. Please critique.





        Hello,

        I was reading a post concerning combat archery on the armor archive
        (threads on CA are like bad acne, nothing can be done about it, you
        shouldn't pick at it but you can't help yourself and it keeps coming
        back.) Anyway I was thinking about the archers at Agincort who
        positioned themselves behind a picket fence for protection. Not great
        protection but meant to slow and break up an advancing army. I was
        thinking about how we could do something similar to enhance certain
        scenarios.

        Please critique the following:

        Take a sheet of 3/8" plywood and rip it lengthwise into 3 16"x8'
        sections. To this sheet glue (no screws just in case) a 2x4 on the back
        edge and a 1x2 on the front edge on sides thus making the thinnest part
        1.125" thick (not the striking portion of a weapon but plenty large
        enough not to fit in a bar-grill). Round all corners.

        Build nine 5' long "thrust-and-throw" black siloflex javelins as per the
        standard rules and do not put fins on them. I believe either HD or Lowes
        carries Siloflex in 5' straight lengths but you have to order a bunch
        and give them the sku number for a special order.

        In the back 2x4, drill nine 1.375" holes starting 4" from the end and
        spaced every 11". These holes could be blind or through, not certain
        which is best. The holes should be angled aprox 45 degrees. We now have
        a reasonably light-weight and safe base supporting 8' of picket fence
        then I can force my way through if I push and bend the siloflex but I'm
        not likely to impale myself on if I see it. Even if I do the siloflex
        will bend and the tip is padded. Worst case scenario is the stand gets
        flipped on its back and becomes a tripping hazard... but no more a
        tripping hazard then a fallen fighter with a wooden shield. If it gets
        stepped on while upside down it will flatten and might permanently
        bend/kink the last 2" of the siloflex... and with pipe cutters the
        spears can be shortened 2" and reused. Not like all the pickets at
        Agincort were a regulation length.

        The system is slightly front heavy but not by much. The 2x4 in back
        helps keep it upright. 50 or 55 degrees instead of 45 may also help.

        Repeat for the other 2 strips of plywood for a total of 24' of picket
        wall and 27 pickets. Also paint the base plates grass green for looks.

        As a defense it's not going to kill anyone but it will slow them down a
        little and a few spear men working behind it might put it to use as it
        breaks up formations. Regretably they can be pushed out of the way
        easily but I don't think staking them down is a good idea because the
        stakes will get pulled out and become potentially dangerous. Sand-bags
        (grey so they look like rocks) may be reasonable.

        I can't think of any material that isn't being used on the field already
        for shields or weapons. I have eliminated the hazards that I thought of.
        What have I missed? What is unsafe, unrealistic, illogical or
        impossible? What about it is unfair to game balance? (other then one
        side having built more stuff then the other side)

        I'm open to all critiques and comments.

        Symon de Poitiers (Sean powell)





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Sean Powell
        Similar to passivises but a different aesthetic. I expect the swiss crossbowmen to bring their pavises. I expect the English Longbowmen to erect picket
        Message 3 of 12 , Jul 3, 2010
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          Similar to passivises but a different aesthetic. I expect the swiss
          crossbowmen to bring their pavises. I expect the English Longbowmen to
          erect picket baricades. The pavises provide defense from incoming
          archery... but I would expect a charging cavalry unit to knock them flat
          and ride over them. The pavise doesn't provide the archery defense,
          doesn't even shield your movement from observation but would provide
          defense against charging cavalry.

          Not that the SCA has cavalry, just a few people large enough to be
          ponys. :) You'd have to be pretty determined to intentionally impale
          yourself for the pickets to actually get a 'kill' in a scenario.

          I'd love to do this with Duke Logans wood-grain spears. Maybe the
          silo-flex could be wrapped in wood-grain contact paper.. or even brown
          duct-tape.

          Sean

          On 7/3/2010 1:27 AM, James Peck wrote:
          > Interesting. It might be OK. I have to think about it. I like the concept.
          >
          >
          >
          > It would probably be easier and more visually appealing (no safety tips) to
          > just build a bunch of free standing archer's pavises with a folding rear
          > leg. Those would help provide cover for spears, archers and impede incoming
          > attacks a bit. And are already acceptable in many areas, would be dual use
          > etc.
          >
          >
          >
          > We used these in the "Siege of Constantinople" Acre/East war and it added a
          > lot to the strategy. You can also use them to simulate walls that could not
          > be knocked down in other scenarios.
          >
          >
          >
          > And it is another place to put your groups livery/heraldry.
          >
          >
          >
          > Richard Blackmoore
          >
          >
          >
          > _____
          >
          > From: SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
          > Of Sean Powell
          > Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 11:15 PM
          > To: SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [SCA-Siege] A thought on a siege structure. Please critique.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Hello,
          >
          > I was reading a post concerning combat archery on the armor archive
          > (threads on CA are like bad acne, nothing can be done about it, you
          > shouldn't pick at it but you can't help yourself and it keeps coming
          > back.) Anyway I was thinking about the archers at Agincort who
          > positioned themselves behind a picket fence for protection. Not great
          > protection but meant to slow and break up an advancing army. I was
          > thinking about how we could do something similar to enhance certain
          > scenarios.
          >
          > Please critique the following:
          >
          > Take a sheet of 3/8" plywood and rip it lengthwise into 3 16"x8'
          > sections. To this sheet glue (no screws just in case) a 2x4 on the back
          > edge and a 1x2 on the front edge on sides thus making the thinnest part
          > 1.125" thick (not the striking portion of a weapon but plenty large
          > enough not to fit in a bar-grill). Round all corners.
          >
          > Build nine 5' long "thrust-and-throw" black siloflex javelins as per the
          > standard rules and do not put fins on them. I believe either HD or Lowes
          > carries Siloflex in 5' straight lengths but you have to order a bunch
          > and give them the sku number for a special order.
          >
          > In the back 2x4, drill nine 1.375" holes starting 4" from the end and
          > spaced every 11". These holes could be blind or through, not certain
          > which is best. The holes should be angled aprox 45 degrees. We now have
          > a reasonably light-weight and safe base supporting 8' of picket fence
          > then I can force my way through if I push and bend the siloflex but I'm
          > not likely to impale myself on if I see it. Even if I do the siloflex
          > will bend and the tip is padded. Worst case scenario is the stand gets
          > flipped on its back and becomes a tripping hazard... but no more a
          > tripping hazard then a fallen fighter with a wooden shield. If it gets
          > stepped on while upside down it will flatten and might permanently
          > bend/kink the last 2" of the siloflex... and with pipe cutters the
          > spears can be shortened 2" and reused. Not like all the pickets at
          > Agincort were a regulation length.
          >
          > The system is slightly front heavy but not by much. The 2x4 in back
          > helps keep it upright. 50 or 55 degrees instead of 45 may also help.
          >
          > Repeat for the other 2 strips of plywood for a total of 24' of picket
          > wall and 27 pickets. Also paint the base plates grass green for looks.
          >
          > As a defense it's not going to kill anyone but it will slow them down a
          > little and a few spear men working behind it might put it to use as it
          > breaks up formations. Regretably they can be pushed out of the way
          > easily but I don't think staking them down is a good idea because the
          > stakes will get pulled out and become potentially dangerous. Sand-bags
          > (grey so they look like rocks) may be reasonable.
          >
          > I can't think of any material that isn't being used on the field already
          > for shields or weapons. I have eliminated the hazards that I thought of.
          > What have I missed? What is unsafe, unrealistic, illogical or
          > impossible? What about it is unfair to game balance? (other then one
          > side having built more stuff then the other side)
          >
          > I'm open to all critiques and comments.
          >
          > Symon de Poitiers (Sean powell)
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          >
        • igel
          In the EK siege handbook, there already are rules for sharpened stakes and they are made of pool noodles wrapped in tape only. I tried making one of those
          Message 4 of 12 , Jul 4, 2010
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            In the EK siege handbook, there already are rules for sharpened stakes and they are made of pool noodles wrapped in tape only.

            I tried making one of those large jacks out of pool noodles but it looked well.... kinda silly. There's also a rule that they have to be set up at least 12 feet from a siege engine, so to make a 1/2 circle barrier means that one would need around 50 linear feet minimum of barrier. That works out to a lot of pool noodles and tape.

            I don't really think that making them out of siloflex would be a problem, but I figured that somebody must have thought this out before. SCA javelins are required to be made of 2 layers of 160 psi siloflex. I think that 1 layer would be preferable to allow better flex when a fighter runs into it. I suppose that a prototype should be built and have a few fighters run into it at full speed and see what happens. One would think that the siloflex will simply bend and not hurt anyone, but sometimes maybe since it's grounded it might not bend quickly enough and potentially hurt someone?

            I would like to see more stuff like this on our battlefields. It would add "color" to our battles.

            Hrelgar
          • Paul W. Van Dyke
            Errrrrr and run it by the Pennsic People in charge before you do it so they are not surprised or if the stop it after you spend a great deal of money and
            Message 5 of 12 , Jul 4, 2010
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              Errrrrr and run it by the Pennsic People in charge before you do it so
              they are not surprised or if the stop it after you spend a great deal of
              money and time on it ... you will not be pissed..

              Errrr walking a real line on this

              JP .... as I got bounced for something before by many.....

              -----Original Message-----
              From: SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
              Of igel
              Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 12:15 AM
              To: SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [SCA-Siege] Re: A thought on a siege structure. Please critique.

              In the EK siege handbook, there already are rules for sharpened stakes and
              they are made of pool noodles wrapped in tape only.

              I tried making one of those large jacks out of pool noodles but it looked
              well.... kinda silly. There's also a rule that they have to be set up at
              least 12 feet from a siege engine, so to make a 1/2 circle barrier means
              that one would need around 50 linear feet minimum of barrier. That works out
              to a lot of pool noodles and tape.

              I don't really think that making them out of siloflex would be a problem,
              but I figured that somebody must have thought this out before. SCA javelins
              are required to be made of 2 layers of 160 psi siloflex. I think that 1
              layer would be preferable to allow better flex when a fighter runs into it.
              I suppose that a prototype should be built and have a few fighters run into
              it at full speed and see what happens. One would think that the siloflex
              will simply bend and not hurt anyone, but sometimes maybe since it's
              grounded it might not bend quickly enough and potentially hurt someone?

              I would like to see more stuff like this on our battlefields. It would add
              "color" to our battles.

              Hrelgar



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            • Richard le Hauke
              From the posted Pennsic siege rules: (See below). If you come up with anything that is not specifically listed below, please see me at Pennsic *with* the items
              Message 6 of 12 , Jul 6, 2010
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                From the posted Pennsic siege rules: (See below).

                If you come up with anything that is not specifically listed below,
                please see me at Pennsic *with* the items in question at Marshals Point
                at least a day prior to their planned use (the more time the better!),
                as we will need to run those items and their rules by the MIC and their
                Majesties for final approval. Generally, we have not had any issues as
                long as we have time to prepare the rule set and ensure that everyone
                knows how to deal with them.

                - Lord Richard le Hauke
                EK DEM Siege
                Pennsic 39 Siege MIC


                Special Siege Items

                If you wish to use any of these items, please speak with the Siege MIC
                the */day prior to the battle in which you would like to use them/*.
                This will give us enough time to inspect the items and ensure all
                parties understand their use. Depending on the item and the scenario,
                Their Royal Majesties, may need to approve their use.

                1. Castle Rocks
                1. The "Rock" is equivalent to a 50# Stone.
                2. The shape must be irregular and be at least 12 inches x 12
                inches x 18 inches.
                3. The construction must be of open or closed cell foam,
                wrapped entirely in gray tape and may not exceed 32 ounces
                in weight.
                4. Rocks may be dropped by any fighter in at least SCA minimum
                armor
                5. The Rock may NOT be thrown. It must be dropped and may not
                be used unless the wall averages approximately 8 feet in
                actual height to the exterior ground level.
                6. The Rock is a SINGLE HIT, SINGLE KILL device.
                7. Rocks may not be gleaned, but may be recovered between battles.
                8. Expended Rocks have no further effect and are considered
                non-interactive debris for the duration of the battle.
                9. There is no limit on stockpiling Rocks.
                2. Battering Ram
                1. The "Ram" is equivalent to a 300 pound log with rope handles
                for carrying.
                2. The Ram should be made of 4 to 7, 3+ inch diameter closed
                cell foam "Pool Noodles" at least 4 but no more than 8 feet
                in length.
                3. It must be wrapped at both ends with Duct Tape and every 2
                feet down its length.
                4. Rope handles should be placed at appropriate intervals for
                carrying and use. These handles should be long enough for
                easy gripping with armored hands, but short enough to reduce
                the risk of entanglement.
                5. The Ram must be manned by at least 4 soldiers and no more
                than 8. These soldiers may not hold weapons.
                6. Should the crew be reduced to less than 4 the Ram may not
                strike until the necessary substitutions can be made.
                7. The Ram must be backed off 3 feet between strikes.
                8. Four strikes forces the door
                9. Rams are not damaged by any weapons or missiles.
                10. Battering Rams may only be used against designated
                structures and not against people.
                3. Caltrops
                1. A Caltrop is a Area Denial Weapon made with 1-1/4 inch pipe
                insulation or other closed cell foam assembled with tape to
                make a trapezoidal assembly no more than 12 inches tall with
                no reinforcements.
                2. The profile for a Caltrop must be at least 6 inches tall.
                Tips must be yellow taped and designed not to penetrate face
                grills.
                3. Caltrops may be dispersed during set up by a siege engineer
                or may be dispersed via Class "A" Engine or siege engineer
                during Battle.
                4. Caltrops inflict a debilitating injury and a fighter
                stepping on one must "take a Leg" if stepping on one.
                5. A fighter may avoid or remove a Caltrop with an unencumbered
                hand. Caltrops are NOT thrown weapons.
                6. Caltrops may not be repositioned by the dispersing side.
                4. Villes
                1. Villes represent spear type pickets carried by soldiers that
                may be assembled as improvised battlements.
                2. Villes are made of 2 to 4 inch diameter pool noodles tipped
                with yellow tape representing thrusting tips with the body
                wrapped in tape, preferably brown, for stiffness. They must
                be at least 5 feet long.
                3. Villes do the same damage as a spear if a fighter runs into
                them.
                4. They may be assembled with tape to make "jacks" as
                individual obstacles.
                5. They may be assembled as a picketed fence by joining them
                together.
                6. Villes obstacles must be placed BEFORE a battle as agreed
                per scenario. They may not be re-positioned by the same side
                or reused by the opposing side.
                7. Villes may be removed by designated Sappers with one free
                hand. Sappers may only remove villes and may not fight
                during the removal.
                8. Removed villes are removed from combat.
                9. Villes may not be used for any other purpose and are not
                hand held weapons or throwing weapons.
                5. Boiling/Flaming Oil
                1. The oil is represented by a mass of open or closed cell foam
                in irregular chunks dispersed from a bucket or barrel.
                2. The chunks must be at least 2 inches x 2 inches x 2 inches.
                3. The construction must be of open or closed cell foam and be
                wrapped entirely in red or orange tape and may not exceed 4
                ounces in weight each.
                4. The dispersing container may be of 1 to 35 gallon size, but
                may not be dropped with the "Oil".
                5. Oil may be dropped by any fighter in SCA minimum Armor, but
                containers over 5 Gallon size must be manned by 2 individuals.
                6. The Oil is a SINGLE HIT, SINGLE KILL device.
                7. Oil may not be gleaned, but may be recovered during Battles.
                8. Expended Oil has no further effect and is considered
                non-interactive debris for the duration of the Battle.
                9. Oil blown back on a pourer is fatal.







                On 07/05/2010 12:42 AM, Paul W. Van Dyke wrote:
                > Errrrrr and run it by the Pennsic People in charge before you do it so
                > they are not surprised or if the stop it after you spend a great deal of
                > money and time on it ... you will not be pissed..
                >
                > Errrr walking a real line on this
                >
                > JP .... as I got bounced for something before by many.....
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • powell.sean@comcast.net
                Lord Richard,    I have NO intention of springing something like this on the Pennsic marshalate last minute. I would only bring something like this to war
                Message 7 of 12 , Jul 6, 2010
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                  Lord Richard,

                     I have NO intention of springing something like this on the Pennsic marshalate last minute. I would only bring something like this to war if I had successfully proved out the concept ahead of time by testing at a small scale. Same applies to any engine I build or crew I train.

                     I have to wonder: The pool-noodle construction (other then being goofy and squishy enough that larpers throwing bean-bags would laugh at them) does not seem to provide a means for anchoring other then as 'jacks' aka WWII tank traps. They look decidedly non-medieval to me. Do we know of any time such a device was used in period? (larger then a caltrop that is) Also, I recall 1 castle battle where something like this may have been used. (I was not at that battle so I have only heard rumors and griping about how silly the idea was) Has there been testing of this or other proposed picket/villes designs?

                     One of the complaints concerning CA is that you can hardly feel being touched by the ammo. I think if I were fighting in retreat and backed into a pool-noodle cluster I wouldn't even notice being 'stabbed' by the points until the tangled in my feet and tripped me. I think that might be comical but not very noticeable. Do we have any standards for 'good' when it is self-inflicted on a siege structure?

                     Sean


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Richard le Hauke" <hawk@...>
                  To: SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tuesday, July 6, 2010 9:16:40 AM
                  Subject: Re: [SCA-Siege] Re: A thought on a siege structure. Please critique.


                   From the posted Pennsic siege rules: (See below).

                  If you come up with anything that is not specifically listed below,
                  please see me at Pennsic *with* the items in question at Marshals Point
                  at least a day prior to their planned use (the more time the better!),
                  as we will need to run those items and their rules by the MIC and their
                  Majesties for final approval.  Generally, we have not had any issues as
                  long as we have time to prepare the rule set and ensure that everyone
                  knows how to deal with them.

                  - Lord Richard le Hauke
                     EK DEM Siege
                     Pennsic 39 Siege MIC


                  *snip*


                     4. Villes
                           1. Villes represent spear type pickets carried by soldiers that
                              may be assembled as improvised battlements.
                           2. Villes are made of 2 to 4 inch diameter pool noodles tipped
                              with yellow tape representing thrusting tips with the body
                              wrapped in tape, preferably brown, for stiffness. They must
                              be at least 5 feet long.
                           3. Villes do the same damage as a spear if a fighter runs into
                              them.
                           4. They may be assembled with tape to make "jacks" as
                              individual obstacles.
                           5. They may be assembled as a picketed fence by joining them
                              together.
                           6. Villes obstacles must be placed BEFORE a battle as agreed
                              per scenario. They may not be re-positioned by the same side
                              or reused by the opposing side.
                           7. Villes may be removed by designated Sappers with one free
                              hand. Sappers may only remove villes and may not fight
                              during the removal.
                           8. Removed villes are removed from combat.
                           9. Villes may not be used for any other purpose and are not
                              hand held weapons or throwing weapons.
                    

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Siegfried
                  My own experience w/ the Jacks used at Pennsic before, is that in practice they look goofy , but also are basically useless. They get setup in a line to block
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jul 6, 2010
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                    My own experience w/ the Jacks used at Pennsic before, is that in
                    practice they 'look goofy', but also are basically useless.

                    They get setup in a line to block access. But just a line of guys with
                    big shields walks up and 'clears' them, and everyone charges in.

                    Alot of effort and silly-looking-ness just to delay people 30 seconds :)

                    The problem exists though of trying to come up with something more
                    'stable' that takes 'effort' to clear. But that doesn't come with
                    non-SCA-ish game rules. IE, stuff like "Hit it 15 times with a
                    greatsword running back 5 foot each time"

                    Heavy fighters not like to think that much.

                    Siegfried


                    On 7/6/10 10:47 AM, powell.sean@... wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Lord Richard,
                    >
                    > I have NO intention of springing something like this on the Pennsic marshalate last minute. I would only bring something like this to war if I had successfully proved out the concept ahead of time by testing at a small scale. Same applies to any engine I build or crew I train.
                    >
                    > I have to wonder: The pool-noodle construction (other then being goofy and squishy enough that larpers throwing bean-bags would laugh at them) does not seem to provide a means for anchoring other then as 'jacks' aka WWII tank traps. They look decidedly non-medieval to me. Do we know of any time such a device was used in period? (larger then a caltrop that is) Also, I recall 1 castle battle where something like this may have been used. (I was not at that battle so I have only heard rumors and griping about how silly the idea was) Has there been testing of this or other proposed picket/villes designs?
                    >
                    > One of the complaints concerning CA is that you can hardly feel being touched by the ammo. I think if I were fighting in retreat and backed into a pool-noodle cluster I wouldn't even notice being 'stabbed' by the points until the tangled in my feet and tripped me. I think that might be comical but not very noticeable. Do we have any standards for 'good' when it is self-inflicted on a siege structure?
                    >
                    > Sean


                    --
                    Barun Siegfried Sebastian Faust - Barony of Highland Foorde - Atlantia
                    http://hf.atlantia.sca.org/ - http://crossbows.biz/ - http://eliw.com/
                  • Oscar Van Loveren 000724 recon
                    That s funny.... ... Web mail provided by NuNet, Inc. The Premier National provider. http://www.nni.com/
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jul 6, 2010
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                      <Heavy fighters not like to think that much.>

                      That's funny....


                      > My own experience w/ the Jacks used at Pennsic before, is
                      > that in
                      > practice they 'look goofy', but also are basically
                      > useless.
                      >
                      > They get setup in a line to block access. But just a
                      > line of guys with
                      > big shields walks up and 'clears' them, and everyone
                      > charges in.
                      >
                      > Alot of effort and silly-looking-ness just to delay
                      > people 30 seconds :)
                      >
                      > The problem exists though of trying to come up with
                      > something more
                      > 'stable' that takes 'effort' to clear. But that doesn't
                      > come with
                      > non-SCA-ish game rules. IE, stuff like "Hit it 15 times
                      > with a
                      > greatsword running back 5 foot each time"
                      >
                      > Heavy fighters not like to think that much.
                      >
                      > Siegfried
                      >
                      >
                      > On 7/6/10 10:47 AM, powell.sean@... wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Lord Richard,
                      > >
                      > > I have NO intention of springing something like this
                      > on the Pennsic marshalate last minute. I would only bring
                      > something like this to war if I had successfully proved
                      > out the concept ahead of time by testing at a small
                      > scale. Same applies to any engine I build or crew I
                      > train.
                      > >
                      > > I have to wonder: The pool-noodle construction
                      > (other then being goofy and squishy enough that larpers
                      > throwing bean-bags would laugh at them) does not seem to
                      > provide a means for anchoring other then as 'jacks' aka
                      > WWII tank traps. They look decidedly non-medieval to me.
                      > Do we know of any time such a device was used in period?
                      > (larger then a caltrop that is) Also, I recall 1 castle
                      > battle where something like this may have been used. (I
                      > was not at that battle so I have only heard rumors and
                      > griping about how silly the idea was) Has there been
                      > testing of this or other proposed picket/villes designs?
                      > >
                      > > One of the complaints concerning CA is that you can
                      > hardly feel being touched by the ammo. I think if I were
                      > fighting in retreat and backed into a pool-noodle cluster
                      > I wouldn't even notice being 'stabbed' by the points
                      > until the tangled in my feet and tripped me. I think that
                      > might be comical but not very noticeable. Do we have any
                      > standards for 'good' when it is self-inflicted on a siege
                      > structure?
                      > >
                      > > Sean
                      >
                      >
                      > --
                      > Barun Siegfried Sebastian Faust - Barony of Highland
                      > Foorde - Atlantia
                      > http://hf.atlantia.sca.org/ - http://crossbows.biz/ -
                      > http://eliw.com/

                      ---------------------------------------------------------------------
                      Web mail provided by NuNet, Inc. The Premier National provider.
                      http://www.nni.com/
                    • Dan Smith
                      To quote a movie my kids are found of, it s funny because it s true. Daniel
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jul 6, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        To quote a movie my kids are found of, it's funny because it's true.

                        Daniel

                        On 7/6/2010 12:51 PM, Oscar Van Loveren 000724 recon wrote:
                        > <Heavy fighters not like to think that much.>
                        >
                        > That's funny....
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >> My own experience w/ the Jacks used at Pennsic before, is
                        >> that in
                        >> practice they 'look goofy', but also are basically
                        >> useless.
                        >>
                        >> They get setup in a line to block access. But just a
                        >> line of guys with
                        >> big shields walks up and 'clears' them, and everyone
                        >> charges in.
                        >>
                        >> Alot of effort and silly-looking-ness just to delay
                        >> people 30 seconds :)
                        >>
                        >> The problem exists though of trying to come up with
                        >> something more
                        >> 'stable' that takes 'effort' to clear. But that doesn't
                        >> come with
                        >> non-SCA-ish game rules. IE, stuff like "Hit it 15 times
                        >> with a
                        >> greatsword running back 5 foot each time"
                        >>
                        >> Heavy fighters not like to think that much.
                        >>
                        >> Siegfried
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> On 7/6/10 10:47 AM, powell.sean@... wrote:
                        >>
                        >>>
                        >>> Lord Richard,
                        >>>
                        >>> I have NO intention of springing something like this
                        >>>
                        >> on the Pennsic marshalate last minute. I would only bring
                        >> something like this to war if I had successfully proved
                        >> out the concept ahead of time by testing at a small
                        >> scale. Same applies to any engine I build or crew I
                        >> train.
                        >>
                        >>> I have to wonder: The pool-noodle construction
                        >>>
                        >> (other then being goofy and squishy enough that larpers
                        >> throwing bean-bags would laugh at them) does not seem to
                        >> provide a means for anchoring other then as 'jacks' aka
                        >> WWII tank traps. They look decidedly non-medieval to me.
                        >> Do we know of any time such a device was used in period?
                        >> (larger then a caltrop that is) Also, I recall 1 castle
                        >> battle where something like this may have been used. (I
                        >> was not at that battle so I have only heard rumors and
                        >> griping about how silly the idea was) Has there been
                        >> testing of this or other proposed picket/villes designs?
                        >>
                        >>> One of the complaints concerning CA is that you can
                        >>>
                        >> hardly feel being touched by the ammo. I think if I were
                        >> fighting in retreat and backed into a pool-noodle cluster
                        >> I wouldn't even notice being 'stabbed' by the points
                        >> until the tangled in my feet and tripped me. I think that
                        >> might be comical but not very noticeable. Do we have any
                        >> standards for 'good' when it is self-inflicted on a siege
                        >> structure?
                        >>
                        >>> Sean
                        >>>
                        >>
                        >> --
                        >> Barun Siegfried Sebastian Faust - Barony of Highland
                        >> Foorde - Atlantia
                        >> http://hf.atlantia.sca.org/ - http://crossbows.biz/ -
                        >> http://eliw.com/
                        >>
                        > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
                        > Web mail provided by NuNet, Inc. The Premier National provider.
                        > http://www.nni.com/
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        >
                      • powell.sean@comcast.net
                        And as a stick jock I should be insulted by it... but it s true. :) Before fights I think and plan. Between fights, I think and analize. After fights I think
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jul 6, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          And as a stick jock I should be insulted by it... but it's true. :)



                          Before fights I think and plan. Between fights, I think and analize. After fights I think and review. During fights is Musashi's 'No Mind'. If I have to think while fighting my opponent beats me. Really, if something is going to get my attention while I'm fighting it helps if can reach into the little dinosaur brain that is in fight-or-flight mode and smack some sense into him. A little pain works, so do loud noises, sudden disruption of my ballance and that shiny duct-tape thing in my face. :)



                          I figure if I test something on myself and don't notice it there is a good chance others wont. Likewise if I test something on myself and it hurts too much then others will whine. Theres a good chance of both hapening anyway but I at least like to know what they are blowing off or whining about!



                          Sean
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Dan Smith" <dsmith2484@...>
                          To: SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Tuesday, July 6, 2010 3:55:58 PM
                          Subject: Re: [SCA-Siege] Re: A thought on a siege structure. Please critique.

                          To quote a movie my kids are found of, it's funny because it's true.

                          Daniel

                          On 7/6/2010 12:51 PM, Oscar Van Loveren 000724 recon wrote:
                          > <Heavy fighters not like to think that much.>
                          >
                          > That's funny....
                          >
                          >
                          >    
                          >> My own experience w/ the Jacks used at Pennsic before, is
                          >> that in
                          >> practice they 'look goofy', but also are basically
                          >> useless.
                          >>
                          >> They get setup in a line to block access.  But just a
                          >> line of guys with
                          >> big shields walks up and 'clears' them, and everyone
                          >> charges in.
                          >>
                          >> Alot of effort and silly-looking-ness just to delay
                          >> people 30 seconds :)
                          >>
                          >> The problem exists though of trying to come up with
                          >> something more
                          >> 'stable' that takes 'effort' to clear.  But that doesn't
                          >> come with
                          >> non-SCA-ish game rules.  IE, stuff like "Hit it 15 times
                          >> with a
                          >> greatsword running back 5 foot each time"
                          >>
                          >> Heavy fighters not like to think that much.
                          >>
                          >> Siegfried
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> On 7/6/10 10:47 AM, powell.sean@... wrote:
                          >>      
                          >>>
                          >>> Lord Richard,
                          >>>
                          >>>     I have NO intention of springing something like this
                          >>>        
                          >> on the Pennsic marshalate last minute. I would only bring
                          >> something like this to war if I had successfully proved
                          >> out the concept ahead of time by testing at a small
                          >> scale. Same applies to any engine I build or crew I
                          >> train.
                          >>      
                          >>>     I have to wonder: The pool-noodle construction
                          >>>        
                          >> (other then being goofy and squishy enough that larpers
                          >> throwing bean-bags would laugh at them) does not seem to
                          >> provide a means for anchoring other then as 'jacks' aka
                          >> WWII tank traps. They look decidedly non-medieval to me.
                          >> Do we know of any time such a device was used in period?
                          >> (larger then a caltrop that is) Also, I recall 1 castle
                          >> battle where something like this may have been used. (I
                          >> was not at that battle so I have only heard rumors and
                          >> griping about how silly the idea was) Has there been
                          >> testing of this or other proposed picket/villes designs?
                          >>      
                          >>>     One of the complaints concerning CA is that you can
                          >>>        
                          >> hardly feel being touched by the ammo. I think if I were
                          >> fighting in retreat and backed into a pool-noodle cluster
                          >> I wouldn't even notice being 'stabbed' by the points
                          >> until the tangled in my feet and tripped me. I think that
                          >> might be comical but not very noticeable. Do we have any
                          >> standards for 'good' when it is self-inflicted on a siege
                          >> structure?
                          >>      
                          >>>     Sean
                          >>>        
                          >>
                          >> --
                          >> Barun Siegfried Sebastian Faust - Barony of Highland
                          >> Foorde - Atlantia
                          >> http://hf.atlantia.sca.org/ - http://crossbows.biz/ -
                          >> http://eliw.com/
                          >>      
                          > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
                          > Web mail provided by NuNet, Inc. The Premier National provider.
                          > http://www.nni.com/
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          >    



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