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Re: [SCA-Siege] Digest Number 2021

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  • Drueta de la Rosa
    ... As long as there are people out there that hold this opinion Siege and CA are special ancillary activities which can enhance HW combat scenarios we will
    Message 1 of 11 , Jun 1, 2010
      >
      > Richard,
      >
      As long as there are people out there that hold this opinion "Siege and CA
      are special ancillary activities which can enhance HW combat scenarios" we
      will continue to fracture our group. We are one community with different
      activies and interests. The individuals who are involved in Siege and CA
      don't feel their interest is an ancillary activity.

      I do agree with safety at all costs, however, can anyone out there prove by
      way of example or case that someone was injured by a damaged siege bolt
      because it was gleaned off the field and the siege crew used it any way?
      I have been involved in siege for several years now and have yet to hear of
      this scenario happening.

      Drueta de la Rosa, OSC
      Baroness of Iron Bog
      Southern Regional Siege Marshal
      House Serpentius


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • James Peck
      Hi. I can t right a long response now, buried with work, but basically: I am trying to help merge the siege, CA and HW communities in terms of both cross
      Message 2 of 11 , Jun 1, 2010
        Hi. I can't right a long response now, buried with work, but basically:



        I am trying to help merge the siege, CA and HW communities in terms of both
        cross participation in combat forms, cross training of marshals,
        standardization of practices, open lines of communication.



        In some kingdoms and in some regions (Calontir is a good example of CA
        integration) it is largely one community using different forms. That is not
        true in all kingdoms or in all sub areas.



        I don't mean ancillary in a negative or condescending manner. However it is
        ancillary per the dictionary definition and unless I'm mistaken, siege and
        CA are still specified as ancillary in the governing SCA documents.



        I like siege, so it isn't personal. My point is simply, we can have HW
        combat without siege. You can't have HW siege without HW combatants or it
        turns into static target practice. So it is important to keep that in mind,
        when making comments that can alienate the partners you need in order to
        have HW siege.



        Off the top of my head, I believe that in recent years most if not all siege
        weapon 'it hit too hard' or other injuries were from legal bolts and legal
        engines. Hence my comments about siege getting lumped in with CA to a
        degree. Other than hitting too hard sometimes or people getting hit at too
        close a range, the nature of siege ammo and the pro-active safety tendencies
        of siege types have kept incidents and issues at a much lower rate than CA.
        On the other hand, many posit that because so little siege takes place as a
        percentage of actual participation, that that is why we have not had as many
        injuries. I'd also point out that siege is either fixed placement or less
        mobile than CA, so you tend to see it coming and not get blindsided or get
        nocks/fletchings redirecting into your face plate. So for a lot of reasons
        siege is less likely to cause some of the CA levels of concern, especially
        since bolts tend to be much bigger.



        RIchard



        _____

        From: SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        Of Drueta de la Rosa
        Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2010 10:01 AM
        To: No Reply
        Cc: SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [SCA-Siege] Digest Number 2021





        >
        > Richard,
        >
        As long as there are people out there that hold this opinion "Siege and CA
        are special ancillary activities which can enhance HW combat scenarios" we
        will continue to fracture our group. We are one community with different
        activies and interests. The individuals who are involved in Siege and CA
        don't feel their interest is an ancillary activity.

        I do agree with safety at all costs, however, can anyone out there prove by
        way of example or case that someone was injured by a damaged siege bolt
        because it was gleaned off the field and the siege crew used it any way?
        I have been involved in siege for several years now and have yet to hear of
        this scenario happening.

        Drueta de la Rosa, OSC
        Baroness of Iron Bog
        Southern Regional Siege Marshal
        House Serpentius

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Siegfried
        Sir Richard, a good post as always, however, there is a slight point I think you might be overlooking ... ... Statements such as this, sit odd in the minds
        Message 3 of 11 , Jun 1, 2010
          Sir Richard, a good post as always, however, there is a slight point I
          think you might be overlooking ...

          > I like siege, so it isn't personal. My point is simply, we can have HW
          > combat without siege. You can't have HW siege without HW combatants or it
          > turns into static target practice. So it is important to keep that in mind,
          > when making comments that can alienate the partners you need in order to
          > have HW siege.

          Statements such as this, sit 'odd' in the minds of people who ARE
          already seeing Siege (or CA) as 'just another authorization'. The
          statement as phrased by you, already implies that there is a separation,
          an 'us vs them' mentality that, IMO, most Siege/CA people don't have at
          this moment, and are therefore are surprised when others do.

          Afterall, a similar statement could be made, which in context sounds
          even sillier, such as "We can have HW combat without HW Spears, having
          HW Spears only wouldn't work so don't alienate your partners"

          (Or greatswords, or for that matter, sword&board)

          Fact is, that Siege can/could happen (and I've seen it happen) without
          having people on the field w/ sticks, and can be very enjoyable as a
          'trying to hit the other engine w/ our inaccurate machines' game.

          Similar for CA (Wrong list, I know), but the CA-only battle at Gulf
          Wars, and the CA-only Woods battle at Pennsic 2 years ago are great
          examples of that.

          Just as someone might have a greatsword only battle, or a spear&board
          duel, or whatever.

          Anyway, just a point I hope you might think about. Many of us truly see
          CA & Siege as 'just another weapons form'. Perhaps from our own
          experience, perhaps from Kingdom Anthropology.

          In Service,
          Siegfried


          --
          Barun Siegfried Sebastian Faust - Barony of Highland Foorde - Atlantia
          http://hf.atlantia.sca.org/ - http://crossbows.biz/ - http://eliw.com/
        • StealthScribe@cox.net
          well said Your Excellency, Lord Gil Gareth Greywolf, Seneschal, Barony of Ered Sul, Kingdom of Atenveldt ... -- ARS LONGA VITA BREVIS
          Message 4 of 11 , Jun 1, 2010
            well said Your Excellency,

            Lord Gil Gareth Greywolf,
            Seneschal, Barony of Ered Sul,
            Kingdom of Atenveldt


            ---- Siegfried <siegfried@...> wrote:
            > Sir Richard, a good post as always, however, there is a slight point I
            > think you might be overlooking ...
            >
            > > I like siege, so it isn't personal. My point is simply, we can have HW
            > > combat without siege. You can't have HW siege without HW combatants or it
            > > turns into static target practice. So it is important to keep that in mind,
            > > when making comments that can alienate the partners you need in order to
            > > have HW siege.
            >
            > Statements such as this, sit 'odd' in the minds of people who ARE
            > already seeing Siege (or CA) as 'just another authorization'. The
            > statement as phrased by you, already implies that there is a separation,
            > an 'us vs them' mentality that, IMO, most Siege/CA people don't have at
            > this moment, and are therefore are surprised when others do.
            >
            > Afterall, a similar statement could be made, which in context sounds
            > even sillier, such as "We can have HW combat without HW Spears, having
            > HW Spears only wouldn't work so don't alienate your partners"
            >
            > (Or greatswords, or for that matter, sword&board)
            >
            > Fact is, that Siege can/could happen (and I've seen it happen) without
            > having people on the field w/ sticks, and can be very enjoyable as a
            > 'trying to hit the other engine w/ our inaccurate machines' game.
            >
            > Similar for CA (Wrong list, I know), but the CA-only battle at Gulf
            > Wars, and the CA-only Woods battle at Pennsic 2 years ago are great
            > examples of that.
            >
            > Just as someone might have a greatsword only battle, or a spear&board
            > duel, or whatever.
            >
            > Anyway, just a point I hope you might think about. Many of us truly see
            > CA & Siege as 'just another weapons form'. Perhaps from our own
            > experience, perhaps from Kingdom Anthropology.
            >
            > In Service,
            > Siegfried
            >
            >
            > --
            > Barun Siegfried Sebastian Faust - Barony of Highland Foorde - Atlantia
            > http://hf.atlantia.sca.org/ - http://crossbows.biz/ - http://eliw.com/

            --
            ARS LONGA VITA BREVIS
          • Mark
            Richard, Most of what you have said is very true, and I appreciate your comments about the Siege Community being proactive. When I was DSEM for Siege I tried
            Message 5 of 11 , Jun 1, 2010
              Richard,

              Most of what you have said is very true, and I appreciate your comments about the Siege Community being proactive. When I was DSEM for Siege I tried very hard to work all of the "bugs" out of the rules, and I know that JP is trying to do the same. Below is a bit of insight in regards to some of the issues you have discussed.

              As the "hitting to hard" goes, during the 5 years that I was in office, and in the time that JP has been there, the only hitting to hard complaints came from the tennis ball tipped ammo (which we got rid of) and from shots that came from 2 specific engines. I am unsure as to why these engines were never tested further to find out why they were causing problems, as was requested, instead of lumping all engines into the same category. I am still concerned that these 2 particular engines may hit to hard at close range even with the restriction of 70 yards for their maximum range.

              As to other complaints of engines hitting to hard, there have been none. I do know that there have been some issues with some crossbows hitting to hard as well, but these complaints I believe can all be traced back to a specific make of crossbow as well.

              I can understand wanting a "no gleaning" policy for the Ballista bolts, they can fail from being stepped on, etc. However both the 4 tb rocks and the 1 pound rocks cannot fail in any kind of dangerous manner, unless they are allowed to sit in water, and someone intentionally tries to get them to soak it up. I have never had a complaint about either of these types of ammo in the 19 years that I have been doing Siege.

              If you have any questions or would like to discuss any of this further, please do not hesitate to contact me.

              Quinn

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: James Peck
              To: SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com ; 'No Reply'
              Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2010 8:23 AM
              Subject: RE: [SCA-Siege] Digest Number 2021



              Hi. I can't right a long response now, buried with work, but basically:

              I am trying to help merge the siege, CA and HW communities in terms of both
              cross participation in combat forms, cross training of marshals,
              standardization of practices, open lines of communication.

              In some kingdoms and in some regions (Calontir is a good example of CA
              integration) it is largely one community using different forms. That is not
              true in all kingdoms or in all sub areas.

              I don't mean ancillary in a negative or condescending manner. However it is
              ancillary per the dictionary definition and unless I'm mistaken, siege and
              CA are still specified as ancillary in the governing SCA documents.

              I like siege, so it isn't personal. My point is simply, we can have HW
              combat without siege. You can't have HW siege without HW combatants or it
              turns into static target practice. So it is important to keep that in mind,
              when making comments that can alienate the partners you need in order to
              have HW siege.

              Off the top of my head, I believe that in recent years most if not all siege
              weapon 'it hit too hard' or other injuries were from legal bolts and legal
              engines. Hence my comments about siege getting lumped in with CA to a
              degree. Other than hitting too hard sometimes or people getting hit at too
              close a range, the nature of siege ammo and the pro-active safety tendencies
              of siege types have kept incidents and issues at a much lower rate than CA.
              On the other hand, many posit that because so little siege takes place as a
              percentage of actual participation, that that is why we have not had as many
              injuries. I'd also point out that siege is either fixed placement or less
              mobile than CA, so you tend to see it coming and not get blindsided or get
              nocks/fletchings redirecting into your face plate. So for a lot of reasons
              siege is less likely to cause some of the CA levels of concern, especially
              since bolts tend to be much bigger.

              RIchard

              _____

              From: SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
              Of Drueta de la Rosa
              Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2010 10:01 AM
              To: No Reply
              Cc: SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [SCA-Siege] Digest Number 2021

              >
              > Richard,
              >
              As long as there are people out there that hold this opinion "Siege and CA
              are special ancillary activities which can enhance HW combat scenarios" we
              will continue to fracture our group. We are one community with different
              activies and interests. The individuals who are involved in Siege and CA
              don't feel their interest is an ancillary activity.

              I do agree with safety at all costs, however, can anyone out there prove by
              way of example or case that someone was injured by a damaged siege bolt
              because it was gleaned off the field and the siege crew used it any way?
              I have been involved in siege for several years now and have yet to hear of
              this scenario happening.

              Drueta de la Rosa, OSC
              Baroness of Iron Bog
              Southern Regional Siege Marshal
              House Serpentius

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • James Peck
              I m not overlooking it, but I might be overstating it. Certainly in some areas, in some kingdoms more than others, there is more of an us and them
              Message 6 of 11 , Jun 1, 2010
                I'm not overlooking it, but I might be overstating it. Certainly in some
                areas, in some kingdoms more than others, there is more of an 'us' and
                'them' mentality where there is a definite separation at least in some
                portions of those kingdoms in the minds of some on both 'sides'.

                Certainly when dealing with Estrella in particular, there have been fighters
                who view 'the archers' or archers who view 'the fighters' as being separate
                camps often at odds with each other. Read the posts on the open SCA lists on
                that topic and also on some of the specialty or closed order lists to get an
                earful on how some people (with and without justification) view it as us
                versus them.

                Less so siege.

                The more I hear people thinking about ALL of us just being heavy weapons
                (HW) fighters who also do siege or CA or thrown weapons, one big community
                with a variety of forms, it is less of a problem. I am glad to hear that in
                the areas you are active, that this is the current mentality. But I can
                assure you that it is not universal. Not yet.

                The spear analogy does not really work out that way in practice. Not really,
                at least not to the degree the in the past people have thought about the CA
                community as 'the archers' or to a lessor degree the 'siege' folks. Probably
                because very often the siege folks were largely people that already did HW
                who added siege to their resume.

                Where a huge number of archers started as archers and stayed CA only,
                especially before we got rid of 'light archers'. I think that last change,
                which I pushed very, very hard for, really made a difference in helping to
                eliminate the 'us' vs. 'them' and the 'those that fight' vs. 'those that
                just want to play paint ball and run away' types of attitudes that were
                prevalent in many areas of the society.

                It was common, as recently as last year, to hear an archer talk about
                yielding and say "but I don't want to fight, I'm an archer". Which used to
                infuriate many of us who take fighting seriously and who think that anyone
                who wants to be on the field, should be prepared to fight. After all, in
                real life, the archers when cornered tended to fight with a secondary
                weapon, not yield (yes I know, depends on the battle, but for the most part
                not a lot of archers getting captured and ransomed).

                The bottom line is, if all the archers, siege folks & HW fighters can think
                the way you do, that we are all HW fighters using various weapons forms as
                one big fighter family with common concerns regarding game play & safety,
                we'll all be in a better place.

                Richard

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Siegfried [mailto:siegfried@...]
                Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2010 1:31 PM
                To: SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com
                Cc: James Peck
                Subject: Re: [SCA-Siege] Digest Number 2021

                Sir Richard, a good post as always, however, there is a slight point I
                think you might be overlooking ...

                > I like siege, so it isn't personal. My point is simply, we can have HW
                > combat without siege. You can't have HW siege without HW combatants or it
                > turns into static target practice. So it is important to keep that in
                mind,
                > when making comments that can alienate the partners you need in order to
                > have HW siege.

                Statements such as this, sit 'odd' in the minds of people who ARE
                already seeing Siege (or CA) as 'just another authorization'. The
                statement as phrased by you, already implies that there is a separation,
                an 'us vs them' mentality that, IMO, most Siege/CA people don't have at
                this moment, and are therefore are surprised when others do.

                Afterall, a similar statement could be made, which in context sounds
                even sillier, such as "We can have HW combat without HW Spears, having
                HW Spears only wouldn't work so don't alienate your partners"

                (Or greatswords, or for that matter, sword&board)

                Fact is, that Siege can/could happen (and I've seen it happen) without
                having people on the field w/ sticks, and can be very enjoyable as a
                'trying to hit the other engine w/ our inaccurate machines' game.

                Similar for CA (Wrong list, I know), but the CA-only battle at Gulf
                Wars, and the CA-only Woods battle at Pennsic 2 years ago are great
                examples of that.

                Just as someone might have a greatsword only battle, or a spear&board
                duel, or whatever.

                Anyway, just a point I hope you might think about. Many of us truly see
                CA & Siege as 'just another weapons form'. Perhaps from our own
                experience, perhaps from Kingdom Anthropology.

                In Service,
                Siegfried


                --
                Barun Siegfried Sebastian Faust - Barony of Highland Foorde - Atlantia
                http://hf.atlantia.sca.org/ - http://crossbows.biz/ - http://eliw.com/
              • Siegfried
                ... [...] I think that last change, ... Understood. I ll admit that in my circles (AEthelmearc in the past, Atlantia for many years), that mindset was very
                Message 7 of 11 , Jun 1, 2010
                  On 6/1/10 2:30 PM, James Peck wrote:
                  > Where a huge number of archers started as archers and stayed CA only,
                  > especially before we got rid of 'light archers'.
                  [...]
                  I think that last change,
                  > It was common, as recently as last year, to hear an archer talk about
                  > yielding and say "but I don't want to fight, I'm an archer".

                  Understood. I'll admit that in 'my circles' (AEthelmearc in the past,
                  Atlantia for many years), that mindset was 'very minor'.

                  Only accentuated more so during a 'certain period of time' when it was
                  'the fad' for Duchesses/Princesses/Queens of Atlantia to all pick up CA
                  to join their forces on the field.

                  But, armor requirements bumped up to be equal for all combatants in mid
                  2003 (7 years ago) ... And the last bastions of no-contact in the few
                  Kingdoms that kept no-contact even though everyone was wearing full
                  armor was in the Oct 2008 update to the rules (approaching 2 years now,
                  and only 2 Kingdoms (not counting Lochac) were still doing that at that
                  point anyway)

                  Both of which timeframes are 'forever' in SCA terms, where our entire
                  ruleset has a tenancy to be rewritten every 2 years

                  heh heh

                  But anyway, yes, 95% of the active CA'ers I know right now, it's just
                  'another auth'. A couple consider it their primary, but grab a sword
                  and board at times as well. To many, it's just another.

                  However, to bring this back to Siege (it's the siege list afterall)

                  I'm actually seeing the opposite happen to Siege. I'll leave it to each
                  to consider if this is a 'good or bad' thing.

                  But I've seen siege get a big boost recently, and it's primarily (99%)
                  people who otherwise wouldn't be on the battlefield. It's being seen as
                  the 'place' to get involved in supporting your Kingdom/Barony on the
                  battlefield, without needing to be 'in the thick' of it and battered
                  regularly.

                  Especially since:

                  1) Siege engines can't/shouldn't be firing from close range anyway, so
                  if a fighter gets 'even kinda close', it's easy to yield.

                  2) Siege is often out of effective range of literally everything else.
                  So firing safely from behind the lines without fear (until said
                  breakthrough happens, and then see #1)

                  3) The current rules that require 2-3 engineers for a machine (for good
                  gameplay reasons), encourage "Talking a couple of your friends into
                  getting in armor to help you w/ a battle or two" if someone is REALLY
                  serious at all about doing siege.

                  Siegfried

                  --
                  Barun Siegfried Sebastian Faust - Barony of Highland Foorde - Atlantia
                  http://hf.atlantia.sca.org/ - http://crossbows.biz/ - http://eliw.com/
                • Oscar Van Loveren 000724 recon
                  I will add a #4 to your list of reasons to get involved in siege. I joined the SCA when I was 48, I am now 52. Don t know your age, but if you are over 50 you
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jun 1, 2010
                    I will add a #4 to your list of reasons to get involved in
                    siege. I joined the SCA when I was 48, I am now 52. Don't
                    know your age, but if you are over 50 you know, or will
                    know at that time, that getting hurt takes a LONG time to
                    heal. In fact there's enough pain without getting hurt.
                    (I'll spare you the details).

                    Yes I know there's old farts out there on the field, but
                    most of them have been doing it for a long time and can
                    outsmart the young turks. I, on the other hand would just
                    be fodder.

                    Any kind of injury would put me out of work (airline
                    pilot). So is it worth getting less than a full pay check
                    for months? Nope.

                    Hence siege. May take a hit or two, and I am dressed for
                    it, but the odds are better than going into the thick of it
                    with nay a clue what I'm doing. If I was 30 it would be
                    another story.

                    But all that said, if we get ousted as non "real"
                    participants, I could be just as happy having a siege only
                    battle..... In fact that sounds like a LOT of fun, provided
                    you have a good number of engines. We should do it just for
                    the heck of it!

                    Lord Goerijs the Unpronouncable.
                    > On 6/1/10 2:30 PM, James Peck wrote:
                    > > Where a huge number of archers started as archers and
                    > stayed CA only,
                    > > especially before we got rid of 'light archers'.
                    > [...]
                    > I think that last change,
                    > > It was common, as recently as last year, to hear an
                    > archer talk about
                    > > yielding and say "but I don't want to fight, I'm an
                    > archer".
                    >
                    > Understood. I'll admit that in 'my circles' (AEthelmearc
                    > in the past,
                    > Atlantia for many years), that mindset was 'very minor'.
                    >
                    > Only accentuated more so during a 'certain period of
                    > time' when it was
                    > 'the fad' for Duchesses/Princesses/Queens of Atlantia to
                    > all pick up CA
                    > to join their forces on the field.
                    >
                    > But, armor requirements bumped up to be equal for all
                    > combatants in mid
                    > 2003 (7 years ago) ... And the last bastions of
                    > no-contact in the few
                    > Kingdoms that kept no-contact even though everyone was
                    > wearing full
                    > armor was in the Oct 2008 update to the rules
                    > (approaching 2 years now,
                    > and only 2 Kingdoms (not counting Lochac) were still
                    > doing that at that
                    > point anyway)
                    >
                    > Both of which timeframes are 'forever' in SCA terms,
                    > where our entire
                    > ruleset has a tenancy to be rewritten every 2 years
                    >
                    > heh heh
                    >
                    > But anyway, yes, 95% of the active CA'ers I know right
                    > now, it's just
                    > 'another auth'. A couple consider it their primary, but
                    > grab a sword
                    > and board at times as well. To many, it's just another.
                    >
                    > However, to bring this back to Siege (it's the siege list
                    > afterall)
                    >
                    > I'm actually seeing the opposite happen to Siege. I'll
                    > leave it to each
                    > to consider if this is a 'good or bad' thing.
                    >
                    > But I've seen siege get a big boost recently, and it's
                    > primarily (99%)
                    > people who otherwise wouldn't be on the battlefield.
                    > It's being seen as
                    > the 'place' to get involved in supporting your
                    > Kingdom/Barony on the
                    > battlefield, without needing to be 'in the thick' of it
                    > and battered
                    > regularly.
                    >
                    > Especially since:
                    >
                    > 1) Siege engines can't/shouldn't be firing from close
                    > range anyway, so
                    > if a fighter gets 'even kinda close', it's easy to yield.
                    >
                    > 2) Siege is often out of effective range of literally
                    > everything else.
                    > So firing safely from behind the lines without fear
                    > (until said
                    > breakthrough happens, and then see #1)
                    >
                    > 3) The current rules that require 2-3 engineers for a
                    > machine (for good
                    > gameplay reasons), encourage "Talking a couple of your
                    > friends into
                    > getting in armor to help you w/ a battle or two" if
                    > someone is REALLY
                    > serious at all about doing siege.
                    >
                    > Siegfried
                    >
                    > --
                    > Barun Siegfried Sebastian Faust - Barony of Highland
                    > Foorde - Atlantia
                    > http://hf.atlantia.sca.org/ - http://crossbows.biz/ -
                    > http://eliw.com/

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                  • Mark Richardson
                    I have been playing for 13 years under Master Quinn, and there have been many Units of people that have faced us to find out that we are fighters as well as
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jun 1, 2010
                      I have been playing for 13 years under Master Quinn, and there have been many "Units" of people that have faced us to find out that we are fighters as well as Siege. To lump us all together I think would be a step in the wrong direction. Many of us have worked hard to become fighters then Siege. The rules are the same for some of the things we do. But we need the other rules for the Siege and CA because of the different aspects of all the areas.

                      Phelan deBruce





                      ________________________________
                      From: James Peck <theregent1@...>
                      To: Siegfried <siegfried@...>; SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tue, June 1, 2010 11:30:08 AM
                      Subject: RE: [SCA-Siege] Digest Number 2021


                      I'm not overlooking it, but I might be overstating it. Certainly in some
                      areas, in some kingdoms more than others, there is more of an 'us' and
                      'them' mentality where there is a definite separation at least in some
                      portions of those kingdoms in the minds of some on both 'sides'.

                      Certainly when dealing with Estrella in particular, there have been fighters
                      who view 'the archers' or archers who view 'the fighters' as being separate
                      camps often at odds with each other. Read the posts on the open SCA lists on
                      that topic and also on some of the specialty or closed order lists to get an
                      earful on how some people (with and without justification) view it as us
                      versus them.

                      Less so siege.

                      The more I hear people thinking about ALL of us just being heavy weapons
                      (HW) fighters who also do siege or CA or thrown weapons, one big community
                      with a variety of forms, it is less of a problem. I am glad to hear that in
                      the areas you are active, that this is the current mentality. But I can
                      assure you that it is not universal. Not yet.

                      The spear analogy does not really work out that way in practice. Not really,
                      at least not to the degree the in the past people have thought about the CA
                      community as 'the archers' or to a lessor degree the 'siege' folks. Probably
                      because very often the siege folks were largely people that already did HW
                      who added siege to their resume.

                      Where a huge number of archers started as archers and stayed CA only,
                      especially before we got rid of 'light archers'. I think that last change,
                      which I pushed very, very hard for, really made a difference in helping to
                      eliminate the 'us' vs. 'them' and the 'those that fight' vs. 'those that
                      just want to play paint ball and run away' types of attitudes that were
                      prevalent in many areas of the society.

                      It was common, as recently as last year, to hear an archer talk about
                      yielding and say "but I don't want to fight, I'm an archer". Which used to
                      infuriate many of us who take fighting seriously and who think that anyone
                      who wants to be on the field, should be prepared to fight. After all, in
                      real life, the archers when cornered tended to fight with a secondary
                      weapon, not yield (yes I know, depends on the battle, but for the most part
                      not a lot of archers getting captured and ransomed).

                      The bottom line is, if all the archers, siege folks & HW fighters can think
                      the way you do, that we are all HW fighters using various weapons forms as
                      one big fighter family with common concerns regarding game play & safety,
                      we'll all be in a better place.

                      Richard

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Siegfried [mailto:siegfried@...]
                      Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2010 1:31 PM
                      To: SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com
                      Cc: James Peck
                      Subject: Re: [SCA-Siege] Digest Number 2021

                      Sir Richard, a good post as always, however, there is a slight point I
                      think you might be overlooking ...

                      > I like siege, so it isn't personal. My point is simply, we can have HW
                      > combat without siege. You can't have HW siege without HW combatants or it
                      > turns into static target practice. So it is important to keep that in
                      mind,
                      > when making comments that can alienate the partners you need in order to
                      > have HW siege.

                      Statements such as this, sit 'odd' in the minds of people who ARE
                      already seeing Siege (or CA) as 'just another authorization'. The
                      statement as phrased by you, already implies that there is a separation,
                      an 'us vs them' mentality that, IMO, most Siege/CA people don't have at
                      this moment, and are therefore are surprised when others do.

                      Afterall, a similar statement could be made, which in context sounds
                      even sillier, such as "We can have HW combat without HW Spears, having
                      HW Spears only wouldn't work so don't alienate your partners"

                      (Or greatswords, or for that matter, sword&board)

                      Fact is, that Siege can/could happen (and I've seen it happen) without
                      having people on the field w/ sticks, and can be very enjoyable as a
                      'trying to hit the other engine w/ our inaccurate machines' game.

                      Similar for CA (Wrong list, I know), but the CA-only battle at Gulf
                      Wars, and the CA-only Woods battle at Pennsic 2 years ago are great
                      examples of that.

                      Just as someone might have a greatsword only battle, or a spear&board
                      duel, or whatever.

                      Anyway, just a point I hope you might think about. Many of us truly see
                      CA & Siege as 'just another weapons form'. Perhaps from our own
                      experience, perhaps from Kingdom Anthropology.

                      In Service,
                      Siegfried

                      --
                      Barun Siegfried Sebastian Faust - Barony of Highland Foorde - Atlantia
                      http://hf.atlantia.sca.org/ - http://crossbows.biz/ - http://eliw.com/







                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Brian Lapham
                      ... participants, I could be just as happy having a siege only battle..... In fact that sounds like a LOT of fun, provided you have a good number of engines.
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jun 1, 2010
                        >But all that said, if we get ousted as non "real"
                        participants, I could be just as happy having a siege only
                        battle..... In fact that sounds like a LOT of fun, provided
                        you have a good number of engines. We should do it just for
                        the heck of it!



                        We have had Siege/CA only battles back in the past when we weren't included in any scenarios. They were some of the best battles I've ever been in.



                        Doughal

                        "The surest way to kill a hobby
                        is to try to make money at it!" -Red Green

                        Catapults at:
                        http://www.onagerplans.com/92002
                        http://www.thehurl.org/tiki-browse_gallery.php?galleryId=13
                        www.myspace.com/thatcatapultguy




                        > To: SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com
                        > From: oscar@...
                        > Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 17:52:17 -0400
                        > Subject: Re: Siege/CA/Appearance - was Re: [SCA-Siege] Digest Number 2021
                        >
                        > I will add a #4 to your list of reasons to get involved in
                        > siege. I joined the SCA when I was 48, I am now 52. Don't
                        > know your age, but if you are over 50 you know, or will
                        > know at that time, that getting hurt takes a LONG time to
                        > heal. In fact there's enough pain without getting hurt.
                        > (I'll spare you the details).
                        >
                        > Yes I know there's old farts out there on the field, but
                        > most of them have been doing it for a long time and can
                        > outsmart the young turks. I, on the other hand would just
                        > be fodder.
                        >
                        > Any kind of injury would put me out of work (airline
                        > pilot). So is it worth getting less than a full pay check
                        > for months? Nope.
                        >
                        > Hence siege. May take a hit or two, and I am dressed for
                        > it, but the odds are better than going into the thick of it
                        > with nay a clue what I'm doing. If I was 30 it would be
                        > another story.
                        >
                        > But all that said, if we get ousted as non "real"
                        > participants, I could be just as happy having a siege only
                        > battle..... In fact that sounds like a LOT of fun, provided
                        > you have a good number of engines. We should do it just for
                        > the heck of it!
                        >
                        > Lord Goerijs the Unpronouncable.
                        > > On 6/1/10 2:30 PM, James Peck wrote:
                        > > > Where a huge number of archers started as archers and
                        > > stayed CA only,
                        > > > especially before we got rid of 'light archers'.
                        > > [...]
                        > > I think that last change,
                        > > > It was common, as recently as last year, to hear an
                        > > archer talk about
                        > > > yielding and say "but I don't want to fight, I'm an
                        > > archer".
                        > >
                        > > Understood. I'll admit that in 'my circles' (AEthelmearc
                        > > in the past,
                        > > Atlantia for many years), that mindset was 'very minor'.
                        > >
                        > > Only accentuated more so during a 'certain period of
                        > > time' when it was
                        > > 'the fad' for Duchesses/Princesses/Queens of Atlantia to
                        > > all pick up CA
                        > > to join their forces on the field.
                        > >
                        > > But, armor requirements bumped up to be equal for all
                        > > combatants in mid
                        > > 2003 (7 years ago) ... And the last bastions of
                        > > no-contact in the few
                        > > Kingdoms that kept no-contact even though everyone was
                        > > wearing full
                        > > armor was in the Oct 2008 update to the rules
                        > > (approaching 2 years now,
                        > > and only 2 Kingdoms (not counting Lochac) were still
                        > > doing that at that
                        > > point anyway)
                        > >
                        > > Both of which timeframes are 'forever' in SCA terms,
                        > > where our entire
                        > > ruleset has a tenancy to be rewritten every 2 years
                        > >
                        > > heh heh
                        > >
                        > > But anyway, yes, 95% of the active CA'ers I know right
                        > > now, it's just
                        > > 'another auth'. A couple consider it their primary, but
                        > > grab a sword
                        > > and board at times as well. To many, it's just another.
                        > >
                        > > However, to bring this back to Siege (it's the siege list
                        > > afterall)
                        > >
                        > > I'm actually seeing the opposite happen to Siege. I'll
                        > > leave it to each
                        > > to consider if this is a 'good or bad' thing.
                        > >
                        > > But I've seen siege get a big boost recently, and it's
                        > > primarily (99%)
                        > > people who otherwise wouldn't be on the battlefield.
                        > > It's being seen as
                        > > the 'place' to get involved in supporting your
                        > > Kingdom/Barony on the
                        > > battlefield, without needing to be 'in the thick' of it
                        > > and battered
                        > > regularly.
                        > >
                        > > Especially since:
                        > >
                        > > 1) Siege engines can't/shouldn't be firing from close
                        > > range anyway, so
                        > > if a fighter gets 'even kinda close', it's easy to yield.
                        > >
                        > > 2) Siege is often out of effective range of literally
                        > > everything else.
                        > > So firing safely from behind the lines without fear
                        > > (until said
                        > > breakthrough happens, and then see #1)
                        > >
                        > > 3) The current rules that require 2-3 engineers for a
                        > > machine (for good
                        > > gameplay reasons), encourage "Talking a couple of your
                        > > friends into
                        > > getting in armor to help you w/ a battle or two" if
                        > > someone is REALLY
                        > > serious at all about doing siege.
                        > >
                        > > Siegfried
                        > >
                        > > --
                        > > Barun Siegfried Sebastian Faust - Barony of Highland
                        > > Foorde - Atlantia
                        > > http://hf.atlantia.sca.org/ - http://crossbows.biz/ -
                        > > http://eliw.com/
                        >
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                      • Richard le Hauke
                        There are some things in the works for Pennsic during the woods battle when we have traditionally have our Missile Day activities. ;-) Keep your eyes open
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jun 1, 2010
                          There are some things in the works for Pennsic during the woods battle
                          when we have traditionally have our "Missile Day" activities. ;-)

                          Keep your eyes open for some future posts on the subject.

                          - Rich


                          On 06/01/2010 09:41 PM, Brian Lapham wrote:
                          >
                          >> But all that said, if we get ousted as non "real"
                          >>
                          > participants, I could be just as happy having a siege only
                          > battle..... In fact that sounds like a LOT of fun, provided
                          > you have a good number of engines. We should do it just for
                          > the heck of it!
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > We have had Siege/CA only battles back in the past when we weren't included in any scenarios. They were some of the best battles I've ever been in.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Doughal
                          >
                          > "The surest way to kill a hobby
                          > is to try to make money at it!" -Red Green
                          >
                          > Catapults at:
                          > http://www.onagerplans.com/92002
                          > http://www.thehurl.org/tiki-browse_gallery.php?galleryId=13
                          > www.myspace.com/thatcatapultguy
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >> To: SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com
                          >> From: oscar@...
                          >> Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 17:52:17 -0400
                          >> Subject: Re: Siege/CA/Appearance - was Re: [SCA-Siege] Digest Number 2021
                          >>
                          >> I will add a #4 to your list of reasons to get involved in
                          >> siege. I joined the SCA when I was 48, I am now 52. Don't
                          >> know your age, but if you are over 50 you know, or will
                          >> know at that time, that getting hurt takes a LONG time to
                          >> heal. In fact there's enough pain without getting hurt.
                          >> (I'll spare you the details).
                          >>
                          >> Yes I know there's old farts out there on the field, but
                          >> most of them have been doing it for a long time and can
                          >> outsmart the young turks. I, on the other hand would just
                          >> be fodder.
                          >>
                          >> Any kind of injury would put me out of work (airline
                          >> pilot). So is it worth getting less than a full pay check
                          >> for months? Nope.
                          >>
                          >> Hence siege. May take a hit or two, and I am dressed for
                          >> it, but the odds are better than going into the thick of it
                          >> with nay a clue what I'm doing. If I was 30 it would be
                          >> another story.
                          >>
                          >> But all that said, if we get ousted as non "real"
                          >> participants, I could be just as happy having a siege only
                          >> battle..... In fact that sounds like a LOT of fun, provided
                          >> you have a good number of engines. We should do it just for
                          >> the heck of it!
                          >>
                          >> Lord Goerijs the Unpronouncable.
                          >>
                          >>> On 6/1/10 2:30 PM, James Peck wrote:
                          >>>
                          >>>> Where a huge number of archers started as archers and
                          >>>>
                          >>> stayed CA only,
                          >>>
                          >>>> especially before we got rid of 'light archers'.
                          >>>>
                          >>> [...]
                          >>> I think that last change,
                          >>>
                          >>>> It was common, as recently as last year, to hear an
                          >>>>
                          >>> archer talk about
                          >>>
                          >>>> yielding and say "but I don't want to fight, I'm an
                          >>>>
                          >>> archer".
                          >>>
                          >>> Understood. I'll admit that in 'my circles' (AEthelmearc
                          >>> in the past,
                          >>> Atlantia for many years), that mindset was 'very minor'.
                          >>>
                          >>> Only accentuated more so during a 'certain period of
                          >>> time' when it was
                          >>> 'the fad' for Duchesses/Princesses/Queens of Atlantia to
                          >>> all pick up CA
                          >>> to join their forces on the field.
                          >>>
                          >>> But, armor requirements bumped up to be equal for all
                          >>> combatants in mid
                          >>> 2003 (7 years ago) ... And the last bastions of
                          >>> no-contact in the few
                          >>> Kingdoms that kept no-contact even though everyone was
                          >>> wearing full
                          >>> armor was in the Oct 2008 update to the rules
                          >>> (approaching 2 years now,
                          >>> and only 2 Kingdoms (not counting Lochac) were still
                          >>> doing that at that
                          >>> point anyway)
                          >>>
                          >>> Both of which timeframes are 'forever' in SCA terms,
                          >>> where our entire
                          >>> ruleset has a tenancy to be rewritten every 2 years
                          >>>
                          >>> heh heh
                          >>>
                          >>> But anyway, yes, 95% of the active CA'ers I know right
                          >>> now, it's just
                          >>> 'another auth'. A couple consider it their primary, but
                          >>> grab a sword
                          >>> and board at times as well. To many, it's just another.
                          >>>
                          >>> However, to bring this back to Siege (it's the siege list
                          >>> afterall)
                          >>>
                          >>> I'm actually seeing the opposite happen to Siege. I'll
                          >>> leave it to each
                          >>> to consider if this is a 'good or bad' thing.
                          >>>
                          >>> But I've seen siege get a big boost recently, and it's
                          >>> primarily (99%)
                          >>> people who otherwise wouldn't be on the battlefield.
                          >>> It's being seen as
                          >>> the 'place' to get involved in supporting your
                          >>> Kingdom/Barony on the
                          >>> battlefield, without needing to be 'in the thick' of it
                          >>> and battered
                          >>> regularly.
                          >>>
                          >>> Especially since:
                          >>>
                          >>> 1) Siege engines can't/shouldn't be firing from close
                          >>> range anyway, so
                          >>> if a fighter gets 'even kinda close', it's easy to yield.
                          >>>
                          >>> 2) Siege is often out of effective range of literally
                          >>> everything else.
                          >>> So firing safely from behind the lines without fear
                          >>> (until said
                          >>> breakthrough happens, and then see #1)
                          >>>
                          >>> 3) The current rules that require 2-3 engineers for a
                          >>> machine (for good
                          >>> gameplay reasons), encourage "Talking a couple of your
                          >>> friends into
                          >>> getting in armor to help you w/ a battle or two" if
                          >>> someone is REALLY
                          >>> serious at all about doing siege.
                          >>>
                          >>> Siegfried
                          >>>
                          >>> --
                          >>> Barun Siegfried Sebastian Faust - Barony of Highland
                          >>> Foorde - Atlantia
                          >>> http://hf.atlantia.sca.org/ - http://crossbows.biz/ -
                          >>> http://eliw.com/
                          >>>
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                          >>
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                          >>
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                          >>
                          >>
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