Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

RE: [SCA-Siege] New pipe insulation fins

Expand Messages
  • Sean Powell
    Agreed. V^2 - k*V. but that dampening factor isn t enough to explain the separation effect from a 70 yard engine to an 80 yard engine either. It s not like the
    Message 1 of 30 , Apr 1 4:19 AM
      Agreed. V^2 - k*V. but that dampening factor isn't enough to explain the
      separation effect from a 70 yard engine to an 80 yard engine either. It's
      not like the sound barrier is at 75 yards and bolts loose massive
      proportions of their velocity as a result.

      I suppose that there could a threshold for pain but I would also assume that
      it was highly person dependent. Hard to say.

      I really like the take a hit from the engine in front of the heavies idea.
      A) It shows them the engines aren't dangerous. B) It proves we aren't wimps.
      :) I'm going to have to finish Bropertys twin so I can demonstrate this
      locally.

      Sean

      -----Original Message-----
      From: SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com]On
      Behalf Of Roderick McKraken
      Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:23 PM
      To: SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [SCA-Siege] New pipe insulation fins


      I meant to say that distance is roughly proportional to velocity squared
      with a slight damping factor.

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Roderick McKraken" <yahoo@...>
      To: <SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 9:35 PM
      Subject: Re: [SCA-Siege] New pipe insulation fins


      > You're not taking into account air resistance, which increases with
      > increased velocity. Distance is roughly proportional to launch
      > velocity,
      > but with a slight damping factor.
      >
      > Also the impact of the bolt may be a non-linear function of velocity.
      > There
      > may be a threshold at which pain and damage increase rapidly.
      >
      > Roderick
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Sean Powell" <powell.sean@...>
      > To: <SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 10:49 PM
      > Subject: RE: [SCA-Siege] New pipe insulation fins
      >
      >
      >> And this is one of those things that leaves me scratching my head and
      >> wondering why. A bolt that launches twice as fast will go twice as high,
      >> spending twice as much time in the air and also go twice as far per
      >> second
      >> in the air so range is roughly proportional to velocity squared. To
      >> increase
      >> range from 70 yards to 80 is 114.3% of the range or 107% of velocity at
      >> launch. I don't understand how Varg can have only 7% greater velocity and
      >> be
      >> attracting a disproportionate amount of complaints... Unless it's crew is
      >> just exceptionally accurate in targeting. :)
      >>
      >> I'm happy if there are no complaints. That makes my job marshaling so
      >> much
      >> easier.
      >>
      >> Sean
      >> (Who is hoping we have enough manpower to crew 'Broperty' this year.)
      >>
      >> -----Original Message-----
      >> From: SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com]On
      >> Behalf Of Roderick McKraken
      >> Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 10:26 PM
      >> To: SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com
      >> Subject: Re: [SCA-Siege] New pipe insulation fins
      >>
      >>
      >> Pennsic has a lot of irregular fighters, but they're not the only ones
      >> who
      >> have complained about bolts hitting to hard. The knights in Darkmoon
      >> don't
      >> complain easily. Neither do East Kingdom knights.
      >>
      >> In the two main incidents where people complained, the ballistae had a
      >> max
      >> range of 80 yards, were shooting at less than 30 yards, used ammo which
      >> weighed between 15 and 16 onces, and were shooting slightly down hill.
      >> But
      >> there have been other incidents with ranges out to 45 yards. Only about
      >> 10
      >> percent of the shots caused complaints. The bolt has to hit dead on.
      >>
      >> Most of the complaints have been about the Varg ballistae, but there is
      >> some
      >> debate about whether the problem is limited to them or can include any
      >> ballista which shoots close to 80 yards max.
      >>
      >> Roderick
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> ------------------------------------
      >>
      >> --
      >> [Email to SCA-Siege-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]Yahoo!
      >> Groups Links
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > --
      > [Email to SCA-Siege-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]Yahoo!
      > Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >



      ------------------------------------

      --
      [Email to SCA-Siege-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]Yahoo! Groups
      Links



      No virus found in this incoming message.
      Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
      Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.35/2033 - Release Date: 03/31/09
      13:05:00
    • James Peck
      There are so many factors that go into whether a blow feels light, good, hard or too hard. Yes, different people have different pain thresholds and
      Message 2 of 30 , Apr 1 5:24 AM
        There are so many factors that go into whether a blow feels light, good,
        hard or 'too' hard.



        Yes, different people have different pain thresholds and perceptions of what
        the 'good' range should be.



        But then you have to factor in if they knew it was coming. Often if you get
        hit unawares, it affects your perceptions one way or the other. Siege, CA
        and thrown weapons are especially subject to this as you often don't know it
        is coming (especially if it hits you in the back or back of the head or in
        illegal target that may be poorly armoured such as the back of your ankle).



        Then you have to look at the armour being worn. You have everything from
        guys in full plate to people with SCA minimums (some of the guys at Gulf
        Wars like HRM Seth Meridies literally were wearing a T shirt under garb at
        times with a kidney belt). This dramatically affects how blows are
        perceived. Yes they have to gauge them the same way for calibration purposes
        using the SCA armour standard, but a too hard blow to a T-shirt is much more
        painful than one to 15th century plate :-)



        Then you have to factor in temperature and type of foam in the heads, some
        are much firmer than others under certain conditions, especially if taped
        tightly or loosely.



        Lots of variables.



        I just assumed that before you shoot anyone with new ballista's and/or new
        ballista ammo, you are trying it out on yourselves before shooting an
        opponent. If you are not doing that, please do so. If you just meant that
        you already do that but want to do so in front of some of the heavy targets,
        that is a good idea too.



        By the way, if you have one engine typically throwing 80 yards and another
        70, I would expect the 80 yard engine to feel noticeably harder assuming the
        same ammo is used in both. After all it has roughly a 14 percent longer
        range. 14% is a big difference. It may not seem like it. But the difference
        between a too hard sword blow and a just right sword blow, is often just a
        slight increase in power used or sword velocity, so I assume the same may
        hold true for siege at times. If it is different ammo with different speeds
        or max distance due to drag, then I'm not sure how to compare them, it
        depends on what the differences are.



        Richard Blackmoore

        KSCA East



        _____

        From: SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        Of Sean Powell
        Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 7:20 AM
        To: SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [SCA-Siege] New pipe insulation fins



        Agreed. V^2 - k*V. but that dampening factor isn't enough to explain the
        separation effect from a 70 yard engine to an 80 yard engine either. It's
        not like the sound barrier is at 75 yards and bolts loose massive
        proportions of their velocity as a result.

        I suppose that there could a threshold for pain but I would also assume that
        it was highly person dependent. Hard to say.

        I really like the take a hit from the engine in front of the heavies idea.
        A) It shows them the engines aren't dangerous. B) It proves we aren't wimps.
        :) I'm going to have to finish Bropertys twin so I can demonstrate this
        locally.

        Sean

        -----Original Message-----
        From: SCA-Siege@yahoogrou <mailto:SCA-Siege%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
        [mailto:SCA-Siege@yahoogrou <mailto:SCA-Siege%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com]On
        Behalf Of Roderick McKraken
        Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:23 PM
        To: SCA-Siege@yahoogrou <mailto:SCA-Siege%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
        Subject: Re: [SCA-Siege] New pipe insulation fins

        I meant to say that distance is roughly proportional to velocity squared
        with a slight damping factor.

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Roderick McKraken" <yahoo@tyson1. <mailto:yahoo%40tyson1.com> com>
        To: <SCA-Siege@yahoogrou <mailto:SCA-Siege%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 9:35 PM
        Subject: Re: [SCA-Siege] New pipe insulation fins

        > You're not taking into account air resistance, which increases with
        > increased velocity. Distance is roughly proportional to launch
        > velocity,
        > but with a slight damping factor.
        >
        > Also the impact of the bolt may be a non-linear function of velocity.
        > There
        > may be a threshold at which pain and damage increase rapidly.
        >
        > Roderick
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "Sean Powell" <powell.sean@ <mailto:powell.sean%40comcast.net>
        comcast.net>
        > To: <SCA-Siege@yahoogrou <mailto:SCA-Siege%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com>
        > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 10:49 PM
        > Subject: RE: [SCA-Siege] New pipe insulation fins
        >
        >
        >> And this is one of those things that leaves me scratching my head and
        >> wondering why. A bolt that launches twice as fast will go twice as high,
        >> spending twice as much time in the air and also go twice as far per
        >> second
        >> in the air so range is roughly proportional to velocity squared. To
        >> increase
        >> range from 70 yards to 80 is 114.3% of the range or 107% of velocity at
        >> launch. I don't understand how Varg can have only 7% greater velocity and
        >> be
        >> attracting a disproportionate amount of complaints... Unless it's crew is
        >> just exceptionally accurate in targeting. :)
        >>
        >> I'm happy if there are no complaints. That makes my job marshaling so
        >> much
        >> easier.
        >>
        >> Sean
        >> (Who is hoping we have enough manpower to crew 'Broperty' this year.)
        >>
        >> -----Original Message-----
        >> From: SCA-Siege@yahoogrou <mailto:SCA-Siege%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
        [mailto:SCA-Siege@yahoogrou <mailto:SCA-Siege%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com]On
        >> Behalf Of Roderick McKraken
        >> Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 10:26 PM
        >> To: SCA-Siege@yahoogrou <mailto:SCA-Siege%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
        >> Subject: Re: [SCA-Siege] New pipe insulation fins
        >>
        >>
        >> Pennsic has a lot of irregular fighters, but they're not the only ones
        >> who
        >> have complained about bolts hitting to hard. The knights in Darkmoon
        >> don't
        >> complain easily. Neither do East Kingdom knights.
        >>
        >> In the two main incidents where people complained, the ballistae had a
        >> max
        >> range of 80 yards, were shooting at less than 30 yards, used ammo which
        >> weighed between 15 and 16 onces, and were shooting slightly down hill.
        >> But
        >> there have been other incidents with ranges out to 45 yards. Only about
        >> 10
        >> percent of the shots caused complaints. The bolt has to hit dead on.
        >>
        >> Most of the complaints have been about the Varg ballistae, but there is
        >> some
        >> debate about whether the problem is limited to them or can include any
        >> ballista which shoots close to 80 yards max.
        >>
        >> Roderick
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> ------------------------------------
        >>
        >> --
        >> [Email to SCA-Siege-unsubscri
        <mailto:SCA-Siege-unsubscribe%40egroups.com> be@egroups.com to leave this
        list]Yahoo!
        >> Groups Links
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > --
        > [Email to SCA-Siege-unsubscri <mailto:SCA-Siege-unsubscribe%40egroups.com>
        be@egroups.com to leave this list]Yahoo!
        > Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >

        ------------------------------------

        --
        [Email to SCA-Siege-unsubscri <mailto:SCA-Siege-unsubscribe%40egroups.com>
        be@egroups.com to leave this list]Yahoo! Groups
        Links

        No virus found in this incoming message.
        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
        Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.35/2033 - Release Date: 03/31/09
        13:05:00





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Sean Powell
        I agree, lots of variables. Still, you would think that the statistics of averages would balance things out. I can t imagine that fighters at Gull Wars wear
        Message 3 of 30 , Apr 1 4:13 PM
          I agree, lots of variables. Still, you would think that the statistics of
          averages would balance things out. I can't imagine that fighters at Gull
          Wars wear heavier armor then farther north. I'm not inclined to think those
          who live below the Mason/Dixon line have an inherently higher pain
          tolerance. Engines of the same approximate performance characteristics were
          launching the same weight ammo with no appreciable tip difference that I
          know of. (were there 1/2 t-ball tip covers at this past Pennsic?). a 7%
          difference in velocity probably contributes but I bet there is more
          variation then that between my onside and offside shots. That leaves 2
          primary differences: the type of scenario and the shear volume of ammo that
          goes downrange.

          There isn't much we can do about the volume of ammo being consumed (in fact
          it might be nice to increase it) so are their scenarios that are more
          desirable for engineers or have fewer associated complaints? I would think
          that scenarios where the engines could target each other would be preferred
          to spearing infantry at random. Is there any battlefield scenario where the
          engines are close enough to shoot at each other but not at near point blank
          for the combatants? Thoughts?

          Sean

          -----Original Message-----
          From: SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
          Of James Peck
          Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 8:25 AM
          To: SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [SCA-Siege] New pipe insulation fins


          There are so many factors that go into whether a blow feels light, good,
          hard or 'too' hard.
        • Dan Smith
          To give a little more data, at this last Estrella war we had 3 ballista that were shooting at 80 yards and didn t have any complaints of excessive force. We
          Message 4 of 30 , Apr 1 5:26 PM
            To give a little more data, at this last Estrella war we had 3 ballista
            that were shooting at 80 yards and didn't have any complaints of
            excessive force. We had a volunteer fighter take a hit at 10 yards from
            one of the ballista and he said hit felt like a stiff spear shot, but
            nothing excessive. During the battles, we we shooting at targets 20 to
            30 yards away with a flat trajectory and didn't have any complants there
            either. I'm starting to think we need to take a closer look at the
            ballista dna ammo in question.

            Daniel

            Mark wrote:
            >
            > Roderick,
            > I know JP's engine, and at least one other from the Hoard were
            > shooting real
            > close to 80 yards at Pennsic, and I know of at least 3 out this way that
            > shoot at 80 yards as well. I doubt that there was much difference in how
            > JP's engine was shooting at GW, vs. how it was shooting at Pennsic,
            > and from
            > what I am hearing there were no complaints from his engine (or any
            > others at
            > GW) at clear the string distances. We have never had a complaint about
            > any
            > engine out West hitting to hard, and the complaints that were being
            > brought
            > forth at Pennsic all came from projectiles fired from the same 2
            > machines. I
            > do not know if it is because of the engines, or if it is because of
            > the way
            > that they are making their ammo, but there does need to be some
            > comparisons
            > done in regards to these two engines.
            > Quinn
            >
            > --
            >
            > .
            >
            >
          • Paul W. Van Dyke
            Darn Now I have to look at the rules for ballista dna ammo I just turned down the ones on fragging tips, and ones using C4 were in my opinion a bit
            Message 5 of 30 , Apr 1 5:46 PM
              Darn Now I have to look at the rules for " ballista dna ammo"

              I just turned down the ones on fragging tips, and ones using C4 were in my
              opinion a bit messy, but under review.

              and Happy April 1

              grinning JP

              -----------------------------
              . I'm starting to think we need to take a closer look at the
              ballista dna ammo in question.

              Daniel
            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.