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RE: [SCA-Siege] New pipe insulation fins

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• Agreed. V^2 - k*V. but that dampening factor isn t enough to explain the separation effect from a 70 yard engine to an 80 yard engine either. It s not like the
Message 1 of 30 , Apr 1 4:19 AM
Agreed. V^2 - k*V. but that dampening factor isn't enough to explain the
separation effect from a 70 yard engine to an 80 yard engine either. It's
not like the sound barrier is at 75 yards and bolts loose massive
proportions of their velocity as a result.

I suppose that there could a threshold for pain but I would also assume that
it was highly person dependent. Hard to say.

I really like the take a hit from the engine in front of the heavies idea.
A) It shows them the engines aren't dangerous. B) It proves we aren't wimps.
:) I'm going to have to finish Bropertys twin so I can demonstrate this
locally.

Sean

-----Original Message-----
From: SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of Roderick McKraken
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:23 PM
To: SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [SCA-Siege] New pipe insulation fins

I meant to say that distance is roughly proportional to velocity squared
with a slight damping factor.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick McKraken" <yahoo@...>
To: <SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 9:35 PM
Subject: Re: [SCA-Siege] New pipe insulation fins

> You're not taking into account air resistance, which increases with
> increased velocity. Distance is roughly proportional to launch
> velocity,
> but with a slight damping factor.
>
> Also the impact of the bolt may be a non-linear function of velocity.
> There
> may be a threshold at which pain and damage increase rapidly.
>
> Roderick
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sean Powell" <powell.sean@...>
> To: <SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 10:49 PM
> Subject: RE: [SCA-Siege] New pipe insulation fins
>
>
>> And this is one of those things that leaves me scratching my head and
>> wondering why. A bolt that launches twice as fast will go twice as high,
>> spending twice as much time in the air and also go twice as far per
>> second
>> in the air so range is roughly proportional to velocity squared. To
>> increase
>> range from 70 yards to 80 is 114.3% of the range or 107% of velocity at
>> launch. I don't understand how Varg can have only 7% greater velocity and
>> be
>> attracting a disproportionate amount of complaints... Unless it's crew is
>> just exceptionally accurate in targeting. :)
>>
>> I'm happy if there are no complaints. That makes my job marshaling so
>> much
>> easier.
>>
>> Sean
>> (Who is hoping we have enough manpower to crew 'Broperty' this year.)
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com]On
>> Behalf Of Roderick McKraken
>> Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 10:26 PM
>> To: SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: Re: [SCA-Siege] New pipe insulation fins
>>
>>
>> Pennsic has a lot of irregular fighters, but they're not the only ones
>> who
>> have complained about bolts hitting to hard. The knights in Darkmoon
>> don't
>> complain easily. Neither do East Kingdom knights.
>>
>> In the two main incidents where people complained, the ballistae had a
>> max
>> range of 80 yards, were shooting at less than 30 yards, used ammo which
>> weighed between 15 and 16 onces, and were shooting slightly down hill.
>> But
>> there have been other incidents with ranges out to 45 yards. Only about
>> 10
>> percent of the shots caused complaints. The bolt has to hit dead on.
>>
>> Most of the complaints have been about the Varg ballistae, but there is
>> some
>> debate about whether the problem is limited to them or can include any
>> ballista which shoots close to 80 yards max.
>>
>> Roderick
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> --
>> [Email to SCA-Siege-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]Yahoo!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> --
> [Email to SCA-Siege-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]Yahoo!
>
>
>
>

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• There are so many factors that go into whether a blow feels light, good, hard or too hard. Yes, different people have different pain thresholds and
Message 2 of 30 , Apr 1 5:24 AM
There are so many factors that go into whether a blow feels light, good,
hard or 'too' hard.

Yes, different people have different pain thresholds and perceptions of what
the 'good' range should be.

But then you have to factor in if they knew it was coming. Often if you get
hit unawares, it affects your perceptions one way or the other. Siege, CA
and thrown weapons are especially subject to this as you often don't know it
is coming (especially if it hits you in the back or back of the head or in
illegal target that may be poorly armoured such as the back of your ankle).

Then you have to look at the armour being worn. You have everything from
guys in full plate to people with SCA minimums (some of the guys at Gulf
Wars like HRM Seth Meridies literally were wearing a T shirt under garb at
times with a kidney belt). This dramatically affects how blows are
perceived. Yes they have to gauge them the same way for calibration purposes
using the SCA armour standard, but a too hard blow to a T-shirt is much more
painful than one to 15th century plate :-)

Then you have to factor in temperature and type of foam in the heads, some
are much firmer than others under certain conditions, especially if taped
tightly or loosely.

Lots of variables.

I just assumed that before you shoot anyone with new ballista's and/or new
ballista ammo, you are trying it out on yourselves before shooting an
opponent. If you are not doing that, please do so. If you just meant that
you already do that but want to do so in front of some of the heavy targets,
that is a good idea too.

By the way, if you have one engine typically throwing 80 yards and another
70, I would expect the 80 yard engine to feel noticeably harder assuming the
same ammo is used in both. After all it has roughly a 14 percent longer
range. 14% is a big difference. It may not seem like it. But the difference
between a too hard sword blow and a just right sword blow, is often just a
slight increase in power used or sword velocity, so I assume the same may
hold true for siege at times. If it is different ammo with different speeds
or max distance due to drag, then I'm not sure how to compare them, it
depends on what the differences are.

Richard Blackmoore

KSCA East

_____

From: SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Sean Powell
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 7:20 AM
To: SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [SCA-Siege] New pipe insulation fins

Agreed. V^2 - k*V. but that dampening factor isn't enough to explain the
separation effect from a 70 yard engine to an 80 yard engine either. It's
not like the sound barrier is at 75 yards and bolts loose massive
proportions of their velocity as a result.

I suppose that there could a threshold for pain but I would also assume that
it was highly person dependent. Hard to say.

I really like the take a hit from the engine in front of the heavies idea.
A) It shows them the engines aren't dangerous. B) It proves we aren't wimps.
:) I'm going to have to finish Bropertys twin so I can demonstrate this
locally.

Sean

-----Original Message-----
From: SCA-Siege@yahoogrou <mailto:SCA-Siege%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
[mailto:SCA-Siege@yahoogrou <mailto:SCA-Siege%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com]On
Behalf Of Roderick McKraken
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:23 PM
To: SCA-Siege@yahoogrou <mailto:SCA-Siege%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
Subject: Re: [SCA-Siege] New pipe insulation fins

I meant to say that distance is roughly proportional to velocity squared
with a slight damping factor.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick McKraken" <yahoo@tyson1. <mailto:yahoo%40tyson1.com> com>
To: <SCA-Siege@yahoogrou <mailto:SCA-Siege%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 9:35 PM
Subject: Re: [SCA-Siege] New pipe insulation fins

> You're not taking into account air resistance, which increases with
> increased velocity. Distance is roughly proportional to launch
> velocity,
> but with a slight damping factor.
>
> Also the impact of the bolt may be a non-linear function of velocity.
> There
> may be a threshold at which pain and damage increase rapidly.
>
> Roderick
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sean Powell" <powell.sean@ <mailto:powell.sean%40comcast.net>
comcast.net>
> To: <SCA-Siege@yahoogrou <mailto:SCA-Siege%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com>
> Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 10:49 PM
> Subject: RE: [SCA-Siege] New pipe insulation fins
>
>
>> And this is one of those things that leaves me scratching my head and
>> wondering why. A bolt that launches twice as fast will go twice as high,
>> spending twice as much time in the air and also go twice as far per
>> second
>> in the air so range is roughly proportional to velocity squared. To
>> increase
>> range from 70 yards to 80 is 114.3% of the range or 107% of velocity at
>> launch. I don't understand how Varg can have only 7% greater velocity and
>> be
>> attracting a disproportionate amount of complaints... Unless it's crew is
>> just exceptionally accurate in targeting. :)
>>
>> I'm happy if there are no complaints. That makes my job marshaling so
>> much
>> easier.
>>
>> Sean
>> (Who is hoping we have enough manpower to crew 'Broperty' this year.)
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: SCA-Siege@yahoogrou <mailto:SCA-Siege%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
[mailto:SCA-Siege@yahoogrou <mailto:SCA-Siege%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com]On
>> Behalf Of Roderick McKraken
>> Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 10:26 PM
>> To: SCA-Siege@yahoogrou <mailto:SCA-Siege%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
>> Subject: Re: [SCA-Siege] New pipe insulation fins
>>
>>
>> Pennsic has a lot of irregular fighters, but they're not the only ones
>> who
>> have complained about bolts hitting to hard. The knights in Darkmoon
>> don't
>> complain easily. Neither do East Kingdom knights.
>>
>> In the two main incidents where people complained, the ballistae had a
>> max
>> range of 80 yards, were shooting at less than 30 yards, used ammo which
>> weighed between 15 and 16 onces, and were shooting slightly down hill.
>> But
>> there have been other incidents with ranges out to 45 yards. Only about
>> 10
>> percent of the shots caused complaints. The bolt has to hit dead on.
>>
>> Most of the complaints have been about the Varg ballistae, but there is
>> some
>> debate about whether the problem is limited to them or can include any
>> ballista which shoots close to 80 yards max.
>>
>> Roderick
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> --
>> [Email to SCA-Siege-unsubscri
<mailto:SCA-Siege-unsubscribe%40egroups.com> be@egroups.com to leave this
list]Yahoo!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> --
> [Email to SCA-Siege-unsubscri <mailto:SCA-Siege-unsubscribe%40egroups.com>
be@egroups.com to leave this list]Yahoo!
>
>
>
>

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
• I agree, lots of variables. Still, you would think that the statistics of averages would balance things out. I can t imagine that fighters at Gull Wars wear
Message 3 of 30 , Apr 1 4:13 PM
I agree, lots of variables. Still, you would think that the statistics of
averages would balance things out. I can't imagine that fighters at Gull
Wars wear heavier armor then farther north. I'm not inclined to think those
who live below the Mason/Dixon line have an inherently higher pain
tolerance. Engines of the same approximate performance characteristics were
launching the same weight ammo with no appreciable tip difference that I
know of. (were there 1/2 t-ball tip covers at this past Pennsic?). a 7%
difference in velocity probably contributes but I bet there is more
variation then that between my onside and offside shots. That leaves 2
primary differences: the type of scenario and the shear volume of ammo that
goes downrange.

There isn't much we can do about the volume of ammo being consumed (in fact
it might be nice to increase it) so are their scenarios that are more
desirable for engineers or have fewer associated complaints? I would think
that scenarios where the engines could target each other would be preferred
to spearing infantry at random. Is there any battlefield scenario where the
engines are close enough to shoot at each other but not at near point blank
for the combatants? Thoughts?

Sean

-----Original Message-----
From: SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
Of James Peck
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 8:25 AM
To: SCA-Siege@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [SCA-Siege] New pipe insulation fins

There are so many factors that go into whether a blow feels light, good,
hard or 'too' hard.
• To give a little more data, at this last Estrella war we had 3 ballista that were shooting at 80 yards and didn t have any complaints of excessive force. We
Message 4 of 30 , Apr 1 5:26 PM
To give a little more data, at this last Estrella war we had 3 ballista
that were shooting at 80 yards and didn't have any complaints of
excessive force. We had a volunteer fighter take a hit at 10 yards from
one of the ballista and he said hit felt like a stiff spear shot, but
nothing excessive. During the battles, we we shooting at targets 20 to
30 yards away with a flat trajectory and didn't have any complants there
either. I'm starting to think we need to take a closer look at the
ballista dna ammo in question.

Daniel

Mark wrote:
>
> Roderick,
> I know JP's engine, and at least one other from the Hoard were
> shooting real
> close to 80 yards at Pennsic, and I know of at least 3 out this way that
> shoot at 80 yards as well. I doubt that there was much difference in how
> JP's engine was shooting at GW, vs. how it was shooting at Pennsic,
> and from
> what I am hearing there were no complaints from his engine (or any
> others at
> GW) at clear the string distances. We have never had a complaint about
> any
> engine out West hitting to hard, and the complaints that were being
> brought
> forth at Pennsic all came from projectiles fired from the same 2
> machines. I
> do not know if it is because of the engines, or if it is because of
> the way
> that they are making their ammo, but there does need to be some
> comparisons
> done in regards to these two engines.
> Quinn
>
> --
>
> .
>
>
• Darn Now I have to look at the rules for ballista dna ammo I just turned down the ones on fragging tips, and ones using C4 were in my opinion a bit
Message 5 of 30 , Apr 1 5:46 PM
Darn Now I have to look at the rules for " ballista dna ammo"

I just turned down the ones on fragging tips, and ones using C4 were in my
opinion a bit messy, but under review.

and Happy April 1

grinning JP

-----------------------------
. I'm starting to think we need to take a closer look at the
ballista dna ammo in question.

Daniel
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