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Re: [SCA-Milliners] Looking for documentation

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  • Cynthia Virtue
    ... If I ever fail to do so, I hope someone kindly slaps me upside the head. On the topic, I often feel fatalistic: we SCA types aren t aware of any examples,
    Message 1 of 28 , Jan 8, 2003
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      Carol Marston wrote:
      > However, I feel greatly honored
      > that you might intimate that someone other than your self might hold
      > that truth.

      If I ever fail to do so, I hope someone kindly slaps me upside the head.
      On the topic, I often feel fatalistic: we SCA types aren't aware of
      any examples, the books don't have any examples, the museums don't have
      any examples, there are none, they are all melted down or taken apart or
      worn out (if fabric) and we'll never know, waaaaaahhhh!

      We can just do our best and hope that more info gets published; cozy up
      to real researchers, etc. The MoL books were an astonishing revelation
      to many of us, and radically changed some aspects of the best that was
      accomplishable in the SCA material artifact recreation arena.

      > However... it is odd, that headpieces can be found from archeological
      > digs from many centuries before... most of the ancient wars, viking
      > era, even thoughts that the beaker people wore head coverings of sorts.
      > Why not the beautiful, yet awkward headstyles of the royal courts of
      > the 14th and 15th centuries?

      It is odd, you're right. Even the less awkward upper middle class ones
      -- for example, Danabren teaches a way to do the Christine de Pisan
      draped white horns -- but they just don't seem to exist in anything but
      pictures.

      Maybe there were so few that none survive. Maybe they were all taken
      apart. Maybe we're all wrong and they were only used for iconic
      purposes in illustrations and they never actually wore those things
      (like the statues showing modern day public figures in togas... ok,
      well, maybe from the 1950s or earlier.)

      Hence the regular Arghs you see on this list!

      --
      Cynthia Virtue and/or
      Cynthia du Pré Argent

      Lady of the Rusks: The Two Toddlers
    • Mayra Figueras
      ... I am absolutely interested in any information at all available on reticulated headresses. I have made two so far, one with two completely cylindrical
      Message 2 of 28 , Jan 8, 2003
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        Katherine Barich wrote:

        >
        > I haven't done any looking, but I am wondering if there are any
        > extant reticulated headdresses left? The might have all been
        > melted down or stolen from graves, but I would think there would
        > be one somewhere....

        I am absolutely interested in any information at all available on
        reticulated headresses. I have made two so far, one with two completely
        cylindrical cauls on either side of my head and another with half
        cylinders on either side of my head based on instructions given to me by
        my costuming guild mistress. I believe I can document the cylindrical
        one enough to enter it in competition but the half cylindrical one is my
        "piece de resistance" and matches my Spanish Sideless Surcoat. I've been
        encouraged to enter both in an upcoming A&S competition in my
        Kingdom...any assistance anyone can provide would be ever so appreciated

        Madelena

        --
        Madelena Hidalgo de Valencia
        (mka Mayra Hidalgo-Figueras)
        Kingdom of Caid, Shire of Heatherwyne
        Ontario, California
        AIM: ToHelnBak1
        MSN: paintnnmy@...
        Yahoo: ohmy719
        ICQ: 110646025



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Cynthia Virtue
        ... I have some pictures of cylindrical ones at my website http://www.virtue.to but haven t any of the half-ones. Have you tried Hope Greenberg s site? She s
        Message 3 of 28 , Jan 8, 2003
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          Mayra Figueras wrote:
          > I believe I can document the cylindrical
          > one enough to enter it in competition but the half cylindrical one is my
          > "piece de resistance" and matches my Spanish Sideless Surcoat. I've been
          > encouraged to enter both in an upcoming A&S competition in my
          > Kingdom...any assistance anyone can provide would be ever so appreciated

          I have some pictures of cylindrical ones at my website
          http://www.virtue.to but haven't any of the half-ones. Have you tried
          Hope Greenberg's site? She's got lots of good pictures (medieval, not
          redrawings) of all sorts of keen stuff.
          http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/15th/index.html .. although most of what she
          has looks later than you need.

          There are some links that are probably work checking out at
          http://www.costumes.org/pages/medievalinks.htm

          --
          Cynthia Virtue and/or
          Cynthia du Pré Argent

          Lady of the Rusks: The Two Toddlers
        • Katherine Barich
          This book is the one that is commonly called the Museum of London book or MOL for short. I thought I d share that because I had to ask on another list.
          Message 4 of 28 , Jan 8, 2003
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            This book is the one that is commonly called the "Museum of
            London" book or MOL for short. I thought I'd share that because I
            had to ask on another list. There is also a book on clothing
            accessories and shoes and pattens in the same series that are well
            worth the trouble of finding. I'll send details if anyone would
            like.

            Katherine


            ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
            From: Carol Marston <cmarston@...>
            Reply-To: SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 10:38:59 -0800

            ><html><body>
            >
            >
            ><tt>
            >There is a book out that I have NOT read, but am waiting to see if our <BR>
            >small library can interloan it.<BR>
            >Cynthia may have it....<BR>
            >Teltiles and Clothing C. 11-50 - c. 1450: Medieval finds from <BR>
            >Excavations in London (Medieval Finds From London) by Elisabeth <BR>
            >Crowfoot, et al.<BR>
            ><BR>
            >I believe the  date of publication is July 2, 2002,   and I know she has <BR>
            >another book or two..  suppose to be some fantastical photos.<BR>
            ><BR>
            >Two reviews do not say a great deal, all positives though.<BR>
            >Carol<BR>
            ><BR>
            >Mayra Figueras wrote:<BR>
            ><BR>
            >><BR>
            >><BR>
            >> Katherine Barich wrote:<BR>
            >><BR>
            >> ><BR>
            >> > I haven't done any looking, but I am wondering if there are any<BR>
            >> > extant reticulated headdresses left?  The might have all been<BR>
            >> > melted down or stolen from graves, but I would think there would<BR>
            >> > be one somewhere....<BR>
            >><BR>
            >> I am absolutely interested in any information at all available on<BR>
            >> reticulated headresses.  I have made two so far, one with two completely<BR>
            >> cylindrical cauls on either side of my head and another with half<BR>
            >> cylinders on either side of my head based on instructions given to me by<BR>
            >> my costuming guild mistress.  I believe I can document the cylindrical<BR>
            >> one enough to enter it in competition but the half cylindrical one is my<BR>
            >> "piece de resistance" and matches my Spanish Sideless Surcoat. I've been<BR>
            >> encouraged to enter both in an upcoming A&S competition in my<BR>
            >> Kingdom...any assistance anyone can provide would be ever so appreciated<BR>
            >><BR>
            >> Madelena<BR>
            >><BR>
            >> --<BR>
            >> Madelena Hidalgo de Valencia<BR>
            >> (mka Mayra Hidalgo-Figueras)<BR>
            >> Kingdom of Caid, Shire of Heatherwyne<BR>
            >> Ontario, California<BR>
            >> AIM:  ToHelnBak1<BR>
            >> MSN:  paintnnmy@...<BR>
            >> Yahoo:  ohmy719<BR>
            >> ICQ:  110646025<BR>
            >><BR>
            >><BR>
            >><BR>
            >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<BR>
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            >><BR>
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          • A F Murphy
            You know, reading all this (which is fascinating ) I m getting some ideas about the lack of extant hats. Speculation, all, but... Cynthia said we want the
            Message 5 of 28 , Jan 8, 2003
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              You know, reading all this (which is fascinating ) I'm getting some
              ideas about the lack of extant hats. Speculation, all, but...

              Cynthia said we want the Janet Arnold of Hats. Many of the extant
              garments she studied were grave clothes. Were people simply not buried
              in their hats? I seem to remember something someplace (Gee, that's
              helpful) about face cloths used in burial... if that was from the time
              we are studying, and heads were wrapped, that would explain the absence.
              I don't know that this was true, but it might be worth looking into.

              Some of the other garments were packed away neatly. Folded. I haven't
              tried folding a hennin, myself, but I don't think it would be a good
              idea... It seems that the lovely elaborate ones would take up an awful
              lot of room in storage. How much space would someone really dedicate to
              Mother's old hopelessly out of style hat? You know, the one that
              (perhaps, if our material guesses are correct) crushes if you breathe on it?

              Other extant garments are around because the fabric was used for
              something else, as rags. But again, hats wouldn't survive that
              treatment, if you were reusing a wire no one would be able to tell
              later, and a veil? How would you know what that rag was? Or a garment
              was cut down and fabric reused. Again, it would be hard to tell... if
              someone did reuse a superstructure, they'd have to take it apart pretty
              completely.

              Anyhow, this is all pure speculation, take it for what it's worth.
              Certainly makes the job more challenging...

              Anne


              Cynthia Virtue wrote:

              >
              >
              > On the topic, I often feel fatalistic: we SCA types aren't aware of
              >any examples, the books don't have any examples, the museums don't have
              >any examples, there are none, they are all melted down or taken apart or
              >worn out (if fabric) and we'll never know, waaaaaahhhh!
              >

              >
              >
              >It is odd, you're right. Even the less awkward upper middle class ones
              >-- for example, Danabren teaches a way to do the Christine de Pisan
              >draped white horns -- but they just don't seem to exist in anything but
              >pictures.
              >
              >Maybe there were so few that none survive. Maybe they were all taken
              >apart. Maybe we're all wrong and they were only used for iconic
              >purposes in illustrations and they never actually wore those things
              >(like the statues showing modern day public figures in togas... ok,
              >well, maybe from the 1950s or earlier.)
              >
              >Hence the regular Arghs you see on this list!
              >
              >
              >
            • Carol Marston
              There is a book out that I have NOT read, but am waiting to see if our small library can interloan it. Cynthia may have it.... Teltiles and Clothing C. 11-50 -
              Message 6 of 28 , Jan 8, 2003
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                There is a book out that I have NOT read, but am waiting to see if our
                small library can interloan it.
                Cynthia may have it....
                Teltiles and Clothing C. 11-50 - c. 1450: Medieval finds from
                Excavations in London (Medieval Finds From London) by Elisabeth
                Crowfoot, et al.

                I believe the date of publication is July 2, 2002, and I know she has
                another book or two.. suppose to be some fantastical photos.

                Two reviews do not say a great deal, all positives though.
                Carol

                Mayra Figueras wrote:

                >
                >
                > Katherine Barich wrote:
                >
                > >
                > > I haven't done any looking, but I am wondering if there are any
                > > extant reticulated headdresses left? The might have all been
                > > melted down or stolen from graves, but I would think there would
                > > be one somewhere....
                >
                > I am absolutely interested in any information at all available on
                > reticulated headresses. I have made two so far, one with two completely
                > cylindrical cauls on either side of my head and another with half
                > cylinders on either side of my head based on instructions given to me by
                > my costuming guild mistress. I believe I can document the cylindrical
                > one enough to enter it in competition but the half cylindrical one is my
                > "piece de resistance" and matches my Spanish Sideless Surcoat. I've been
                > encouraged to enter both in an upcoming A&S competition in my
                > Kingdom...any assistance anyone can provide would be ever so appreciated
                >
                > Madelena
                >
                > --
                > Madelena Hidalgo de Valencia
                > (mka Mayra Hidalgo-Figueras)
                > Kingdom of Caid, Shire of Heatherwyne
                > Ontario, California
                > AIM: ToHelnBak1
                > MSN: paintnnmy@...
                > Yahoo: ohmy719
                > ICQ: 110646025
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
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              • Don Majkol
                hail and well meet Misstress, I am looking for heargear of polish seaman mid -late 1300 s. Any help good misstress would be greatly welcome. . Domamir
                Message 7 of 28 , Jan 8, 2003
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                  hail and well meet Misstress,

                  I am looking for heargear of polish seaman mid -late 1300's. Any help good
                  misstress would be greatly welcome.

                  .
                  Domamir Przyimek Zeglarz
                  akma Don Majkol



                  --- Carol Marston <cmarston@...> wrote:
                  > O.K..... I can get really boring here... you are going to have to be
                  > fairly specific in what you are wanting to know... I can give you all
                  > sorts of museums to visits in the UK... Costumers museums abound.....
                  > most are 16th century and newer... but there are older displays
                  > different places at different times. Most of the castles or different
                  > estates that can be toured often have early clothing.
                  >
                  > I have not been to Europe to know this first hand... I can supply you
                  > with all sorts of addresses/
                  >
                  > Now... if you are looking for archaelogical evidences I can supply those
                  > as well.
                  >
                  > I am sorry to be so vague... but, there are so many examples of
                  > headware from pieces of netting or leather type hats from 2000 years
                  > ago... to crowns, military, even headware of prostitutes... hee hee.
                  >
                  > Let me know a more specific nature of hat style, class, material, even
                  > position, and I will see what I can find in my files.
                  > Carol
                  >
                  > ps.... I have found your articles very interesting, I have learned a
                  > lot about costuming from your pieces. Congrats.


                  __________________________________________________
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                • Carol Marston
                  The best I can do today is Http://pubwww.srce.hr/husar/ Click on Medieval Click on Monghol 13th century There are lost of other land warriors... ... [Non-text
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jan 8, 2003
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                    The best I can do today is Http://pubwww.srce.hr/husar/
                    Click on Medieval
                    Click on Monghol 13th century
                    There are lost of other land warriors...


                    Don Majkol wrote:

                    > hail and well meet Misstress,
                    >
                    > I am looking for heargear of polish seaman mid -late 1300's. Any help
                    > good
                    > misstress would be greatly welcome.
                    >
                    > .
                    > Domamir Przyimek Zeglarz
                    > akma Don Majkol
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- Carol Marston <cmarston@...> wrote:
                    > > O.K..... I can get really boring here... you are going to have to be
                    > > fairly specific in what you are wanting to know... I can give you all
                    > > sorts of museums to visits in the UK... Costumers museums abound.....
                    > > most are 16th century and newer... but there are older displays
                    > > different places at different times. Most of the castles or different
                    > > estates that can be toured often have early clothing.
                    > >
                    > > I have not been to Europe to know this first hand... I can supply you
                    > > with all sorts of addresses/
                    > >
                    > > Now... if you are looking for archaelogical evidences I can supply
                    > those
                    > > as well.
                    > >
                    > > I am sorry to be so vague... but, there are so many examples of
                    > > headware from pieces of netting or leather type hats from 2000 years
                    > > ago... to crowns, military, even headware of prostitutes... hee hee.
                    > >
                    > > Let me know a more specific nature of hat style, class, material, even
                    > > position, and I will see what I can find in my files.
                    > > Carol
                    > >
                    > > ps.... I have found your articles very interesting, I have learned a
                    > > lot about costuming from your pieces. Congrats.
                    >
                    >
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                  • kcncress@aol.com
                    Carol...... Your website is really fascinating. I m a felt hatmaker--my main claim to fame in the SCA. Your shapers are a great idea, but most I saw would
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jan 10, 2003
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                      Carol......
                      Your website is really fascinating. I'm a felt hatmaker--my main claim to
                      fame in the SCA. Your shapers are a great idea, but most I saw would need a
                      bit of modification to fit into our historical period.

                      Check into the Greenland finds. I know of one felt "sugarloaf" hat found
                      there. I'll try to dig up my references, but now I'm late for work--spent
                      too much time on your site!! I also have an obscure reference to an
                      Anatolian hat form, made of "bowl shaped" copper that was set over the fire
                      to heat the wool batt and form the hat.

                      Thanks again for the lead. I'm really anxious to look into the Fulacht
                      Fiadh, and find that medieval wool press you had a picture off!

                      -------------Dejaniera,
                      Barony of Forgotten Sea, Calontir
                      (Kansas City)


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Carol Marston
                      I am so pleased to hear from you. I appreciate your positive remarks on my website... I did work hard on it but I have so much more info I would like to
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jan 10, 2003
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                        I am so pleased to hear from you. I appreciate your positive remarks on
                        my website... I did work hard on it but I have so much more info I
                        would like to upload.... Especially on the fulacht fiadh. Pretty
                        interesting... makes sense... but hard to prove.

                        If you are interested in any of the hatshapers, we can easily create a
                        customized shape for you.
                        I need a drawing or photo and good incremental measurements.

                        I have great respect for hatmakers and felters... wonderful handmade
                        creations and hard work.
                        I do not make many hats... I only have a dozen or so total....

                        I am happy to work with the hatshapers and continuing to do research on
                        hats, textiles, et al.

                        Good Day to you.
                        Carol

                        kcncress@... wrote:

                        > Carol......
                        > Your website is really fascinating. I'm a felt hatmaker--my main
                        > claim to
                        > fame in the SCA. Your shapers are a great idea, but most I saw would
                        > need a
                        > bit of modification to fit into our historical period.
                        >
                        > Check into the Greenland finds. I know of one felt "sugarloaf" hat found
                        > there. I'll try to dig up my references, but now I'm late for
                        > work--spent
                        > too much time on your site!! I also have an obscure reference to an
                        > Anatolian hat form, made of "bowl shaped" copper that was set over the
                        > fire
                        > to heat the wool batt and form the hat.
                        >
                        > Thanks again for the lead. I'm really anxious to look into the Fulacht
                        > Fiadh, and find that medieval wool press you had a picture off!
                        >
                        > -------------Dejaniera,
                        > Barony of Forgotten Sea, Calontir
                        > (Kansas City)
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
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                      • kcncress@aol.com
                        Carol....... Don t misunderstand this group. We are very hungry for information on hats of any form. Millinery has changed little over the centuries if you
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jan 12, 2003
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                          Carol.......
                          Don't misunderstand this group. We are very hungry for information on hats
                          of any form. Millinery has changed little over the centuries if you look at
                          the actual process of production. Technology has merely saved time and
                          effort--and as evidenced on your page, the medieval era's hatmaker was way
                          ahead of other fields when it comes to gadgetry!

                          I, for one, am very grateful for your contributions. Please feel welcome
                          here, but know there are few that work alot with wool felt, and forming batts
                          into finished headware. As a felter myself, and teacher of many hat classes,
                          I've come to see more folks inclined to produce millinery that is made of
                          clothe, stuffing of some sort, wire supports, basketry and embellishment,
                          than to invision a wool hat shape and execute it. I have also seen people
                          who raid the Stetson second's bin for blanks to shape--which is very cool.

                          There's much to do in "our middles ages", and we revel in sharing what we've
                          seen and done. Have you had the opportunity to attend any SCA events?

                          ------------------Dejaniera,
                          Barony of Forgotten Sea, Calontir


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Carol Marston
                          I feel very welcomed and challenged (good thing) and hungry for further knowledge myself. It started actually, finding out that my lineage descended from
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jan 12, 2003
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                            I feel very welcomed and challenged (good thing) and hungry for further
                            knowledge myself. It started actually, finding out that my lineage
                            descended from members of Clothmakers Guilds in England, Flanders then
                            Holland. One of the ancestors paid Rembrandt to paint him... several
                            times... The "popularity" of these people doesn't excite me nearly as
                            much as the history which surrounded their lives, the people, places,
                            ideas, especially the process of making cloth. I appreciate this list
                            so very much and hope to be of much help as possible. I know that I
                            will be gleaning useful information in large doses here and look forward
                            to just that.
                            Blessings,
                            Carol

                            kcncress@... wrote:

                            > Carol.......
                            > Don't misunderstand this group. We are very hungry for information on
                            > hats
                            > of any form. Millinery has changed little over the centuries if you
                            > look at
                            > the actual process of production. Technology has merely saved time and
                            > effort--and as evidenced on your page, the medieval era's hatmaker was
                            > way
                            > ahead of other fields when it comes to gadgetry!
                            >
                            > I, for one, am very grateful for your contributions. Please feel welcome
                            > here, but know there are few that work alot with wool felt, and
                            > forming batts
                            > into finished headware. As a felter myself, and teacher of many hat
                            > classes,
                            > I've come to see more folks inclined to produce millinery that is made of
                            > clothe, stuffing of some sort, wire supports, basketry and embellishment,
                            > than to invision a wool hat shape and execute it. I have also seen
                            > people
                            > who raid the Stetson second's bin for blanks to shape--which is very cool.
                            >
                            > There's much to do in "our middles ages", and we revel in sharing what
                            > we've
                            > seen and done. Have you had the opportunity to attend any SCA events?
                            >
                            > ------------------Dejaniera,
                            > Barony of Forgotten Sea, Calontir
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
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                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • neimhaille
                            Greetings, ... And ... two ... I have tried searching the archives and the web for university of prague hennin and extant hennin and this is the only place
                            Message 13 of 28 , Aug 23, 2003
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                              Greetings,
                              I have just joined hte list and this message caught my eye:

                              > Medieval Hats" alas! I wish there were <goes off into dreamland>
                              And
                              > this hat, in the collection of the University of Prague, is one of
                              two
                              > extant examples of the "hennin" style hat. You can clearly see its
                              > construction where the fabric and pearls are missing....


                              I have tried searching the archives and the web for university of
                              prague hennin and extant hennin and this is the only place i've seen
                              reference to it, I'm looking in the files and photos as I type so I'm
                              not yet sure if there are images in there.

                              Is there any more information on this hat? I'm pulling apart (or
                              rather using as a container) my hennin I made in June so I can make a
                              new one, while I used materials that can be conjectured as being
                              used, I still used modern substitutes. So I'm going to look for wool
                              felt and plain card etc. And I'd like to be able to be guided by what
                              is left of this extant hennin. Or the other one mentioned:)

                              michaela
                              http://costumes.glittersweet.com
                            • Cynthia Virtue
                              I m fairly sure that the extant hennin referred to is a fantasy. We d all like to see one! But none has come to light that I know of. I keep hoping. Maybe
                              Message 14 of 28 , Aug 23, 2003
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                                I'm fairly sure that the extant hennin referred to is a fantasy. We'd
                                all like to see one! But none has come to light that I know of. I keep
                                hoping. Maybe some grave somewhere....

                                --
                                Cynthia Virtue and/or
                                Cynthia du Pré Argent

                                Medieval baby-in-a-walker toddler T-shirt: http://store.virtue.to
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