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Making Medieval Hats

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  • Luanne Bartholomew
    I m creating a 15th century persona and am very interested in input on the following topic: How were women s headresses of the period (reticulated, horned,
    Message 1 of 22 , Oct 2, 2000
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      I'm creating a 15th century persona and am very interested in input
      on the following topic: How were women's headresses of the period
      (reticulated, horned, heart-shaped, etc.) constructed? Do we have any
      primary source material?

      I've heard several theories, that they were made on a base of
      stiffened felt, of buckram, of wire, or of wicker (or some
      combination). Felt and buckram may seem weather-sensitive, but it
      hasn't stopped us in the 20th century from using those materials.

      If you have made such a hat, what has worked for you? What has not
      worked?

      Thanks for the help.

      Lady Irmele von Grunsberg
    • Cynthia Virtue
      Hi Lady Irmele, and Milliners! ... None that I ve heard of. (Great wailing and tearing of hair.) I ve got a rundown of some theories at
      Message 2 of 22 , Oct 2, 2000
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        Hi Lady Irmele, and Milliners!

        > I'm creating a 15th century persona and am very interested in input
        > on the following topic: How were women's headresses of the period
        > (reticulated, horned, heart-shaped, etc.) constructed? Do we have any
        > primary source material?

        None that I've heard of. (Great wailing and tearing of hair.)

        I've got a rundown of some theories at
        <http://www.virtue.to/articles/hat_theories.html> and the articles on
        how I've done mine, but I'm always looking for new ways of doing these
        -- or new opinions on 'em.

        There are lots of folks on this list with opinions! Let's hear them!

        --
        Cynthia du Pré Argent
        "Such virtue hath my pen...." -Shakespeare, Sonnet LXXXI
        "I knew this wasn't _my_ pen!" --Cynthia V.
      • Irene leNoir
        ... I ve made two steeple henins. For the first I used a base of window screening. I chose this blatantly non-period choice because I wanted something that
        Message 3 of 22 , Oct 2, 2000
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          >If you have made such a hat, what has worked for you?
          >What has not worked?

          I've made two steeple henins.

          For the first I used a base of window screening. I chose this blatantly
          non-period choice because I wanted something that wasn't weather
          sensitive. Also it was nice and light. Unfortunately shortly after the
          hat was completed my lord dumped something on top of it. I never could
          quite get the resulting crease out of it.

          For my second attempt I decided to go with buckram. I figured that I'd
          risk the weather problem since I realized that I'm hardly ever outside in
          the rain anyway. Also, with the buckram, if something got dumped on the
          hat, I could use steam to reshape it and remove any creases.

          I've had this second henin for several years now. It has worked pretty
          well. Unfortunately, It is now in need of replacement as over time it
          has gotten the tip whacked against too many door frames, and it is now
          bent pretty badly just at the tip. I think another contributing factor
          to the bent tip has been that although I formed the core from a nice
          precise cone of buckram, I've slowly over time crunched the tip as I've
          pinned the veil into the point of it.

          I'm now debating whether I'll go with the buckram again, or whether I
          might be brave enough to try wicker. Either way, I'm thinking that the
          very tip of the cone will be made from a small cone of wood with a
          pre-drilled hole. That way when I pin into the tip of the cone for the
          veil, the pin won't crunch the infrastructure.


          I'm also interested in what has and hasn't worked for other people,
          particularly for this style of hat.

          Jessica Clark
          SCA: Irène leNoir
          irene@...
          http://home.ici.net/~beowulf/jessica
        • Leah Lloyd
          ... Not so far as I know, besides some information in the London Museum series, specifially Clothing & Accessories, in which they have a photo of an extant
          Message 4 of 22 , Oct 2, 2000
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            > I'm creating a 15th century persona and am very interested in input
            > on the following topic: How were women's headresses of the period
            > (reticulated, horned, heart-shaped, etc.) constructed? Do we have
            > any primary source material?

            Not so far as I know, besides some information in the London Museum
            series, specifially Clothing & Accessories, in which they have a photo of
            an extant wire form from a ram's horm style caul (yes, slightly earlier,
            but a place to start) NOTE!!! Upon close examination, the wire shape has
            been photographed upside down!!! The angle of the wire should properly
            cross the underside of the caul (look at it, it'll make more sense than
            my saying so)

            Deciding on which country you are from will greatly affect your choices
            of headgear (behold the differences between 15th C Germany and France,
            for example!!)

            > I've heard several theories, that they were made on a base of
            > stiffened felt, of buckram, of wire, or of wicker (or some
            > combination). Felt and buckram may seem weather-sensitive, but it
            > hasn't stopped us in the 20th century from using those materials.
            >
            > If you have made such a hat, what has worked for you? What has not
            > worked?
            >
            > Thanks for the help.
            >
            > Lady Irmele von Grunsberg

            I have found that using a layer of heavy weight buckram (or 2 or 3) gives
            fairly good results, but be warned, ANY moisture will warp the material.
            I've had to throw away at least one cauled hat because the moisture from
            the condensation inside my pavilion at Pennsic (while on a shelf, no
            less!) made it all warped and lumpy. I suggest that after you sew the
            form into the desired shape(s) you cover the form with duct tape. This
            will aid somewhat in waterproofing (a light mist or gentle rain will no
            longer compromise the stiffness) as well as adding some structural
            integrity with minimal additional sewing. You will, however, need to use
            a thicker needle and heavier thread to sew any material to the form
            itself (eg the fabric covering for the form) because the adhesive of the
            tape will stick onto the needle & thread.

            I tend to use bridal hat forms wherever possible - saves a lot of steps!
            For a recent 15th C truncated hennin with cauls & wires that I made
            (based on Baroness Cynthia's research, courtesy of her web page), as a
            basic form I used a $3 panama hat, cutting off both the brim and the top
            of the crown. Then I sewed seam binding around the raw edges with a
            sewing machine. Around the panama hat, I built a truncated cone, whose
            angle was different from the panama hat, and set some padding of polyfil
            in between the two layers (just in case) using simple masking tape (for
            short-term placement use only - masking tape does NOT like to adhere to
            buckram!!). I have very long hair, and tied it up into a tall knob to
            wear this hat - with the hole cut into the top of the panama hat, it both
            allowed a better fit (didn't have hair interfering with the fit of the
            form around my head) and helped stablize the height (by having the hole
            in the hat grip the hair itself).

            When making cauls that do not actually hold hair, I have used both shaped
            fabric (like little flat-backed pillows) and wire hangars bent into
            shape. Also, I have used polyfil and shoulder pads for stuffing. Either
            seem to work equally well, as the shoulder pads often come in the correct
            shape for the lower curves for cauls. Shoulder pads tend to be lighter
            than polyfil. Plain flat trim (try woven metallic christmas trim of 1/4"
            width, or other package decorating trims in a woven style) is excellent
            for recreating the effect of metal banding on cauls. A simple hidden
            basting stitch will be fine for attachment purposes, as these will not be
            stress points.

            Apply trim to cauls BEFORE attaching to the hat form whenever
            possible.....

            Regarding unlined wire cauls, a friend made a pair using beads on beading
            wire, which aids greatly in being able to use bobby pins to hold them on.
            They also fit around the hair as desired, being made out of semi-flexible
            wire, and any damage incurred by people sitting on them can easily
            repaired by bending them back into shape.

            Hope I've helped,
            Danabren, East
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          • Cynthia Virtue
            ... Was it fiberglass screening, or wire screening? (You could add a brim and cover it black, and turn it into a truly fearsome witches hat for Halloween!)
            Message 5 of 22 , Oct 2, 2000
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              Irene leNoir wrote:
              > For the first I used a base of window screening.

              Was it fiberglass screening, or wire screening? (You could add a brim
              and cover it black, and turn it into a truly fearsome witches' hat for Halloween!)

              > very tip of the cone will be made from a small cone of wood with a
              > pre-drilled hole. That way when I pin into the tip of the cone for the
              > veil, the pin won't crunch the infrastructure.

              Maybe a little wire cage for the tip, pointed? That way you could pin
              it anywhere. Might be lighter, as well.

              And I forgot to ask you at Coronation (EK) -- how do you hold yours on?

              --
              Cynthia du Pré Argent
              "Such virtue hath my pen...." -Shakespeare, Sonnet LXXXI
              "I knew this wasn't _my_ pen!" --Cynthia V.

              A:> Drain
            • Cynthia Virtue
              ... I thought they d only identified it as wire that we think was part of a headress but we have no idea. I ll have to go back and look at it harder. It
              Message 6 of 22 , Oct 2, 2000
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                Danabren wrote:
                > Not so far as I know, besides some information in the London Museum
                > series, specifially Clothing & Accessories, in which they have a photo of
                > an extant wire form from a ram's horm style caul

                I thought they'd only identified it as 'wire that we think was part of a
                headress but we have no idea.' I'll have to go back and look at it
                harder. It just looks like two loops of wire to me.

                I wonder if using acrylic spray sealer for artwork (krylon, etc) would
                work to weatherproof buckram?

                --
                Cynthia du Pré Argent
                "Such virtue hath my pen...." -Shakespeare, Sonnet LXXXI
                "I knew this wasn't _my_ pen!" --Cynthia V.
              • Leah Lloyd
                ... I can see Beo doing this.... :) ... What about using floral foam? Or putting some sort of non-drying putty into the drilled hole, so that the pin has
                Message 7 of 22 , Oct 2, 2000
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                  On Mon, 2 Oct 2000 16:42:47 -0400 Irene leNoir <irene@...> writes:
                  > >If you have made such a hat, what has worked for you?
                  > >What has not worked?
                  >
                  > I've made two steeple henins. (snip)
                  > Unfortunately shortly after the
                  > hat was completed my lord dumped something on top of it. I never
                  > could quite get the resulting crease out of it.

                  I can see Beo doing this.... :)

                  > Either way, I'm thinking that the
                  > very tip of the cone will be made from a small cone of wood with a
                  > pre-drilled hole. That way when I pin into the tip of the cone for
                  > the veil, the pin won't crunch the infrastructure.

                  What about using floral foam? Or putting some sort of non-drying putty
                  into the drilled hole, so that the pin has something to grip when placed?

                  > I'm also interested in what has and hasn't worked for other people,
                  > particularly for this style of hat.
                  >
                  > Jessica Clark

                  As a personal preference, I would not make a steeple hennin with a point,
                  and while I would not tell anyone *not* to do it, my research has told me
                  that only Princesses (and Queens) were allowed to wear that style of hat
                  in a height of greater than 22". (But it could certainly be in error, or
                  strictly limited to a single geographical area) Which seems to me,
                  thereby, to be a logical progression as to how truncated hennins came to
                  be - some uppity noblewoman showed off her hat, taller than the resident
                  Princess', and the Princess had it, er, shortened - whether forcibly or
                  not is irrelevant! (Think of later-period gentles trying to enter cities
                  and having their stiffened collar ruffles hacked down by city guards to
                  no wider than the width of their shoulders due to sumptuary laws, and you
                  get the idea) Also, I get quite enough guff already from people about
                  wearing tall hats, as I'm over six foot :)

                  Additionally, a truncated style keeps you from whacking your head into
                  doorways, other people, and keeps you from the dreaded limp-tip syndrome!

                  How do you pin the veil? Do you straight pin it at both temples and at
                  the tip of the cone, or only at the tip? Fastening it at the temples will
                  keep the wind from blowing your veil off center (hideously embarrassing
                  at outdoor events! And if your own friends won't tell you that your veil
                  is hanging off the side of your hat, who will?) I wouldn't ask these
                  questions, except that I wasn't wearing contacts or glasses last weekend
                  and couldn't examine your hat the way I wanted to :) And what do you do
                  about lappets?

                  Danabren
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                • Irene leNoir
                  ... It was wire screening. ... There s a thought! :) (But I threw it out years ago. Oh well.) ... Definitely an idea. Sometime soon when I find some of
                  Message 8 of 22 , Oct 2, 2000
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                    >> For the first I used a base of window screening.
                    >Was it fiberglass screening, or wire screening?

                    It was wire screening.

                    >(You could add a brim and cover it black, and turn it
                    >into a truly fearsome witches' hat for Halloween!)

                    There's a thought! :) (But I threw it out years ago. Oh well.)

                    >Maybe a little wire cage for the tip, pointed? That way
                    >you could pin it anywhere. Might be lighter, as well.

                    Definitely an idea. Sometime soon when I find some of that myserious
                    copius spare time I'm going to play with a couple possible materials for
                    the main form. Once I decide what to use for that it will be easier to
                    choose what (if different) to use for the tip.

                    >And I forgot to ask you at Coronation (EK) -- how do
                    >you hold yours on?

                    I actually do something that some people consider rather scary - I anchor
                    it to the roots of my hair.

                    Really, it's not that bad. I put my hair into a topknot. Then I take a
                    comb and stick it into the hair in front of the topknot. Then I stick
                    another comb into the hair in front of the first comb, etc., etc., until
                    I've stacked combs forward just about to the hairline. The last comb
                    slips through loops on the front lower inside edge of the henin before
                    being tucked into the previous comb.

                    What this does is transfer all the force of the hat through the combs to
                    the topknot. As I'm sure we've all discovered at one point or another,
                    pulling on all your hair at once doesn't hurt nearly as much as pulling
                    on one single hair. Since all the force is applied rather evenly to all
                    of my hair, all it feels like is a gentle tugging sensation, and it
                    doesn't hurt. I've worn the henin in moderately high winds, and for up
                    to six hours at a stretch without any problems.

                    Of course, this method isn't for everyone. I know there are people who
                    get horrible headaches just from putting their hair into a ponytail. I
                    wouldn't recommend this approach for them. Also, I have absolutely no
                    evidence for this being historically accurate. I've heard many theories
                    about how they attached them (including the idea that they glued them to
                    their heads with pine pitch - yeah right!), but I don't as yet have a
                    personal opinion on how they really did it. I just use this method
                    because it works for me.

                    Jessica Clark
                    SCA: Irène leNoir
                    irene@...
                    http://home.ici.net/~beowulf/jessica
                  • Brinkman, Dena J (Dena)
                    Plastic canvas works well also (but definitely NOT period). Beldena van de Leeuwe
                    Message 9 of 22 , Oct 2, 2000
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                      Plastic canvas works well also (but definitely NOT period).

                      Beldena van de Leeuwe

                      > ----------
                      > From: Irene leNoir[SMTP:irene@...]
                      > Reply To: SCA-Milliners@egroups.com
                      > Sent: Monday, October 02, 2000 2:42 PM
                      > To: SCA-Milliners@egroups.com
                      > Subject: Re: [SCA-Milliners] Making Medieval Hats
                      >
                      > >If you have made such a hat, what has worked for you?
                      > >What has not worked?
                      >
                      > I've made two steeple henins.
                      >
                      > For the first I used a base of window screening. I chose this blatantly
                      > non-period choice because I wanted something that wasn't weather
                      > sensitive. Also it was nice and light. Unfortunately shortly after the
                      > hat was completed my lord dumped something on top of it. I never could
                      > quite get the resulting crease out of it.
                      >
                      > For my second attempt I decided to go with buckram. I figured that I'd
                      > risk the weather problem since I realized that I'm hardly ever outside in
                      > the rain anyway. Also, with the buckram, if something got dumped on the
                      > hat, I could use steam to reshape it and remove any creases.
                      >
                      > I've had this second henin for several years now. It has worked pretty
                      > well. Unfortunately, It is now in need of replacement as over time it
                      > has gotten the tip whacked against too many door frames, and it is now
                      > bent pretty badly just at the tip. I think another contributing factor
                      > to the bent tip has been that although I formed the core from a nice
                      > precise cone of buckram, I've slowly over time crunched the tip as I've
                      > pinned the veil into the point of it.
                      >
                      > I'm now debating whether I'll go with the buckram again, or whether I
                      > might be brave enough to try wicker. Either way, I'm thinking that the
                      > very tip of the cone will be made from a small cone of wood with a
                      > pre-drilled hole. That way when I pin into the tip of the cone for the
                      > veil, the pin won't crunch the infrastructure.
                      >
                      >
                      > I'm also interested in what has and hasn't worked for other people,
                      > particularly for this style of hat.
                      >
                      > Jessica Clark
                      > SCA: Irène leNoir
                      > irene@...
                      > http://home.ici.net/~beowulf/jessica
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Community email addresses:
                      > Post message: SCA-Milliners@onelist.com
                      > Subscribe: SCA-Milliners-subscribe@onelist.com
                      > Unsubscribe: SCA-Milliners-unsubscribe@onelist.com
                      > List owner: SCA-Milliners-owner@onelist.com
                      >
                      > Shortcut URL to this page:
                      > http://www.onelist.com/community/SCA-Milliners
                      >
                    • Leah Lloyd
                      ... it ... It s two loops made from a single length of wire, the raw ends being bent around itself in way as to hold it in shape. Look at it upside down, and
                      Message 10 of 22 , Oct 2, 2000
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                        > Danabren wrote:
                        > > Not so far as I know, besides some information in the London Museum
                        > > series, specifially Clothing & Accessories, in which they have a
                        > photo of
                        > > an extant wire form from a ram's horm style caul
                        >
                        > I thought they'd only identified it as 'wire that we think was part
                        > of a headress but we have no idea.' I'll have to go back and look at
                        it
                        > harder. It just looks like two loops of wire to me.

                        It's two loops made from a single length of wire, the raw ends being bent
                        around itself in way as to hold it in shape. Look at it upside down, and
                        constructing a caul from it (as a basic shape to be covered and attached
                        thereby to your head in whichever mode chosen) makes much more sense than
                        the way it is presented.

                        I looked at it for quite a while thinking "That just doesn't look
                        right..." and when I spun the picture around, it looked better as a
                        design & concept. It's possible that the museum photographer (or whoever
                        was dealing with the article in question) wanted to show the
                        construction, rather than it's used position.

                        I don't have the book itself (mea culpa), but rather a copy of the page,
                        which is still in box somewhere. If you could give the list the page #
                        and relevant info, I'd appreciate it.

                        Danabren
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                      • Irene leNoir
                        ... Yep. :) Which is why when I made the second hat I made a protective box for it at the same time so that the instant it was finished it could go into the
                        Message 11 of 22 , Oct 2, 2000
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                          >I can see Beo doing this.... :)

                          Yep. :)

                          Which is why when I made the second hat I made a protective box for it at
                          the same time so that the instant it was finished it could go into the
                          box. (I actually finished the box before the hat.)

                          >What about using floral foam?

                          I'd worry that over time, repetetive pinning would cause the foam to
                          crumble.

                          >Or putting some sort of non-drying putty
                          >into the drilled hole, so that the pin has
                          >something to grip when placed?

                          I don't think it will actually be a problem, as the pin will have to pass
                          through the outer "fashion fabric" first. That will give it enough
                          resistance.

                          >my research has told me that only Princesses (and Queens)
                          >were allowed to wear that style of hat in a height of
                          >greater than 22".

                          I've heard similar things as well, but never gotten around to tracking
                          them down. Could you share where you found this information?

                          Coincidentally though, my henin is actually only about 22" anyway. (18"
                          from the top/back of my head, probably about 22" from the hairline.)
                          When I built it I very carefully made sure that I didn't make it so tall
                          that I couldn't reach the tip.

                          >How do you pin the veil?

                          I pin it at the center front lower edge with a regular sewing pin. Then
                          I pin it at the tip with a corsage pin.

                          Hmmm... now that I think of it, I could just use a regular pin at the tip
                          as well, and then only pin into the outer fabric, thus avoiding the limp
                          tip problem again. I'm not sure why I do it the way I do. I can't
                          recall why I started doing it that way, and it's sorta just become and
                          "I've always done it that way" thing.

                          Thanks for asking! :)

                          Now I don't have to worry about the tip. Yay!

                          >And what do you do about lappets?

                          I just don't have them. I prefer the plain style.

                          Jessica Clark
                          SCA: Irène leNoir
                          irene@...
                          http://home.ici.net/~beowulf/jessica
                        • Leah Lloyd
                          ... *sigh* I KNEW someone was going to call me on this. I will hunt it down and post it as soon as I find it. Danabren
                          Message 12 of 22 , Oct 2, 2000
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                            > >my research has told me that only Princesses (and Queens)
                            > >were allowed to wear that style of hat in a height of
                            > >greater than 22".
                            >
                            > I've heard similar things as well, but never gotten around to
                            > tracking
                            > them down. Could you share where you found this information?

                            *sigh* I KNEW someone was going to call me on this. I will hunt it down
                            and post it as soon as I find it.

                            Danabren
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                          • kcncress@aol.com
                            Irene was not so far off with the window screen hennin. Is it so far fetched that a metal frame could be made, and possibly a wire mesh used to support the
                            Message 13 of 22 , Oct 3, 2000
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                              Irene was not so far off with the window screen hennin. Is it so far fetched
                              that a metal frame could be made, and possibly a wire mesh used to support
                              the extreme height of these hats?

                              We have a standing "arguement" here in Calontir, among the Milliners. I
                              firmly beleive that there are heads out there that are just not shaped to
                              accomodate tall hennins. Notice the variety of styles worn when it was
                              popular. I also personally feel that hair was the base shape that helped
                              hold an extreme headpeice in place. Also, a cap of some sort helps to
                              stabilize the structure....hair is sooooo slippery.

                              I am a felter. Extreme shapes and odd styles of medieval hats are so much
                              fun to make. I would agree that felt for a steeple hennin would require alot
                              of starch/glue/stiffener, and wouldn't be the best choice for this hat,
                              although felt is a good medium for half hennins and fezes.

                              My vote for a stiffening agent for your steeple hennin would be buckram or
                              cardboard. Good luck, and keep us posted on your newest headgear!

                              Dejaniera de la Mille Coeur
                              Barony of Forgotten Sea, Calontir
                            • Leah Lloyd
                              ... Are you the Dejaniera referred to as The Veil Lady here in the East, who used to sell veils at Pennsic? I had her card but promptly lost it, and there
                              Message 14 of 22 , Oct 3, 2000
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                                > Dejaniera de la Mille Coeur
                                > Barony of Forgotten Sea, Calontir

                                Are you the Dejaniera referred to as The Veil Lady here in the East, who
                                used to sell veils at Pennsic? I had her card but promptly lost it, and
                                there are lots of Easterners who are bereft without her wares....

                                Danabren
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                              • EHW
                                ... It is my understanding that sumptuary laws were often in place to bring in income to the kingdom. If someone broke the sump. law then they would be
                                Message 15 of 22 , Oct 3, 2000
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                                  On 2 Oct 2000, at 22:08, Leah Lloyd wrote:

                                  > > >my research has told me that only Princesses (and Queens)
                                  > > >were allowed to wear that style of hat in a height of
                                  > > >greater than 22".
                                  > >
                                  > > I've heard similar things as well, but never gotten around to
                                  > > tracking
                                  > > them down. Could you share where you found this information?
                                  >
                                  > *sigh* I KNEW someone was going to call me on this. I will hunt it
                                  > down and post it as soon as I find it.
                                  >
                                  > Danabren


                                  It is my understanding that sumptuary laws were often in place to
                                  bring in income to the kingdom. If someone broke the sump. law
                                  then they would be fined. To break the law meant you could afford
                                  to do so and hence gained you certain social standing. I know this
                                  was true in England during certain time periods, I don't know about
                                  others so it could be wrong with reference to the above question.
                                  Astridhr
                                • kcncress@aol.com
                                  In a message dated 10/3/00 8:19:19 AM Pacific Daylight Time, danabren@juno.com writes: Are you the Dejaniera referred to as The Veil Lady here in the East,
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Oct 4, 2000
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                                    In a message dated 10/3/00 8:19:19 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
                                    danabren@... writes:

                                    Are you the Dejaniera referred to as The Veil Lady here in the East, who
                                    used to sell veils at Pennsic? I had her card but promptly lost it, and
                                    there are lots of Easterners who are bereft without her wares....

                                    No, but I would wager you are speaking of Mistress Myra Needlesang. I
                                    checked my newsletters for an address, but will have to look her up and let
                                    her know you inquired of her. She usually attends our Lilies War in early
                                    June, and sells her veils there.....I have two myself!


                                    Dejaniera
                                  • Cynthia Virtue
                                    ... Could you tell us about these wonderful veils? -- Cynthia du Pré Argent Such virtue hath my pen.... -Shakespeare, Sonnet LXXXI I knew this wasn t _my_
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Oct 4, 2000
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                                      > Mistress Myra Needlesang. [...] She usually attends our Lilies War in early
                                      > June, and sells her veils there.....I have two myself!

                                      Could you tell us about these wonderful veils?

                                      --
                                      Cynthia du Pré Argent
                                      "Such virtue hath my pen...." -Shakespeare, Sonnet LXXXI
                                      "I knew this wasn't _my_ pen!" --Cynthia V.
                                    • Leah Lloyd
                                      On Wed, 04 Oct 2000 08:32:24 -0400 Cynthia Virtue ... Ooooooo - if she s who used to be a part of the Calontir Small Merchants Guild (?)
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Oct 4, 2000
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                                        On Wed, 04 Oct 2000 08:32:24 -0400 Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue@...>
                                        writes:
                                        >
                                        > > Mistress Myra Needlesang. [...] She usually attends our Lilies War
                                        > in early
                                        > > June, and sells her veils there.....I have two myself!
                                        >
                                        > Could you tell us about these wonderful veils?

                                        Ooooooo - if she's who used to be a part of the Calontir Small Merchants
                                        Guild (?) about 4 years back, yay! She has a machine which rolls the
                                        edges of veils beautifully. They are the perfect weight, soft pre-washed
                                        cotton, in various colors. Every Norman persona should have a dozen of
                                        her wares! Various lengths and sizes as well, from small round to 6'
                                        ovals. I find them extremely versatile for using as gorgets, coifs,
                                        wimples, layered normans, extra layers atop hennins.....basically
                                        anywhere that I need a veil where I don't want to use sheer silk, I use
                                        one of her veils. It used to be a tradition among some friends of mine,
                                        that every year, no matter what else we wanted, come Pennsic we would go
                                        to the Veil Lady FIRST and buy a new veil. We've been bereft without her
                                        to look forward to, and every year the 1st one out there has the sad
                                        responsibility of reporting that once again she's still not there.

                                        Danabren


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                                      • Danielle Nunn-Weinberg
                                        Greetings, ...
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Jan 9, 2001
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                                          Greetings,

                                          --- In SCA-Milliners@egroups.com, Irene leNoir <irene@i...> wrote:
                                          <snip

                                          > >my research has told me that only Princesses (and Queens)
                                          > >were allowed to wear that style of hat in a height of
                                          > >greater than 22".
                                          >
                                          > I've heard similar things as well, but never gotten around to
                                          tracking
                                          > them down. Could you share where you found this information?

                                          Yes please! Hennins have always interested me. Although I'm rather
                                          afraid to do one given the fact that I'm 5'10".

                                          <snip>

                                          > >And what do you do about lappets?
                                          >
                                          > I just don't have them. I prefer the plain style.

                                          Do any of you have pictures of you in your hennins? I would love to
                                          see them.

                                          Cheers,
                                          Gwendoline
                                        • Leah Lloyd
                                          ... I am actually still poking around for the info - haven t forgotten! Danabren ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Jan 9, 2001
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                                            > > >my research has told me that only Princesses (and Queens)
                                            > > >were allowed to wear that style of hat in a height of
                                            > > >greater than 22".
                                            > >
                                            > > I've heard similar things as well, but never gotten around to
                                            > tracking them down. Could you share where you found this information?
                                            >
                                            > Yes please! Hennins have always interested me. Although I'm rather
                                            > afraid to do one given the fact that I'm 5'10".

                                            I am actually still poking around for the info - haven't forgotten!

                                            Danabren
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                                          • Irene leNoir
                                            ... Unfortunately I don t. I don t suppose by any chance that you live in the East Kingdom? Jessica Clark SCA: Irène leNoir irene@ici.net
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Jan 9, 2001
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                                              >Do any of you have pictures of you in your hennins?
                                              >I would love to see them.

                                              Unfortunately I don't. I don't suppose by any chance that you live in
                                              the East Kingdom?

                                              Jessica Clark
                                              SCA: Irène leNoir
                                              irene@...
                                              http://home.ici.net/~beowulf/jessica
                                            • Danielle Nunn-Weinberg
                                              Greetings, ... in ... Nope, unfortunately I don t. I live in Ealdormere. : ) I suppose you re like me and have hardly any pictures of yourself? My thing
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Jan 10, 2001
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                                                Greetings,

                                                --- In SCA-Milliners@egroups.com, Irene leNoir <irene@i...> wrote:
                                                > >Do any of you have pictures of you in your hennins?
                                                > >I would love to see them.
                                                >
                                                > Unfortunately I don't. I don't suppose by any chance that you live
                                                in
                                                > the East Kingdom?

                                                Nope, unfortunately I don't. I live in Ealdormere. : ) I suppose
                                                you're like me and have hardly any pictures of yourself? My thing is
                                                usually Elizabethan tall hats.

                                                Cheers,
                                                Gwendoline
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