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dagging

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  • Melanie
    How would I line the dags? I have an idea about sewing a circle of excactly matching fabric onto the top, cutting out the dags, and then hemming them and
    Message 1 of 15 , Aug 14 4:07 AM
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      How would I line the dags? I have an idea about sewing
      a circle of excactly matching fabric onto the top,
      cutting out the dags, and then hemming them and
      flipping it inside and whipstitching it in place at
      the top... Would that work?



      ~Dionysia

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    • Dianne and Greg Stucki
      Good---but I would actually trace the line of the dags onto the fabric, sew them, THEN cut them out and turn. Laurensa ... From: Melanie
      Message 2 of 15 , Aug 14 4:22 AM
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        Good---but I would actually trace the line of the dags onto the fabric, sew
        them, THEN cut them out and turn.

        Laurensa
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Melanie" <linuxgrrlv2@...>
        To: <SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 7:07 AM
        Subject: [SCA-Milliners] dagging


        > How would I line the dags? I have an idea about sewing
        > a circle of excactly matching fabric onto the top,
        > cutting out the dags, and then hemming them and
        > flipping it inside and whipstitching it in place at
        > the top... Would that work?
        >
        >
        >
        > ~Dionysia
        >
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      • Cynthia Virtue
        Definitely sew first, cut later. Also, for sinfully easy dags, use fulled wool (or if you can t bear wool and the look is sufficient, heathery polartec.)
        Message 3 of 15 , Aug 14 5:06 AM
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          Definitely sew first, cut later.

          Also, for sinfully easy dags, use fulled wool (or if you can't bear wool
          and the "look" is sufficient, heathery polartec.) You just cut them
          dags out any old way you please; no hemming, no edge treatments, no long
          hours at the sewing machine.

          Dianne and Greg Stucki wrote:

          > Good---but I would actually trace the line of the dags onto the fabric, sew
          > them, THEN cut them out and turn.



          --
          Cynthia Virtue and/or
          Cynthia du Pré Argent

          Incredible as it may seem, there was a time, years ago, when people
          right here in America actually drank the water that came out of their
          taps. Back then, if you had tried to ''brand'' water and sell it, people
          would have laughed and squirted you with garden hoses. -- Dave Barry
        • Dianne and Greg Stucki
          Ooooh...and I have this lovely 11 yard length of brick red wool that s just slightly fulled....mmmmmmmm... ... From: Cynthia Virtue
          Message 4 of 15 , Aug 14 5:10 AM
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            Ooooh...and I have this lovely 11 yard length of brick red wool that's just
            slightly fulled....mmmmmmmm...
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Cynthia Virtue" <cvirtue@...>
            To: <SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 8:06 AM
            Subject: Re: [SCA-Milliners] dagging


            > Definitely sew first, cut later.
            >
            > Also, for sinfully easy dags, use fulled wool (or if you can't bear wool
            > and the "look" is sufficient, heathery polartec.) You just cut them
            > dags out any old way you please; no hemming, no edge treatments, no long
            > hours at the sewing machine.
            >
            > Dianne and Greg Stucki wrote:
            >
            > > Good---but I would actually trace the line of the dags onto the fabric,
            sew
            > > them, THEN cut them out and turn.
            >
            >
            >
            > --
            > Cynthia Virtue and/or
            > Cynthia du Pré Argent
            >
            > Incredible as it may seem, there was a time, years ago, when people
            > right here in America actually drank the water that came out of their
            > taps. Back then, if you had tried to ''brand'' water and sell it, people
            > would have laughed and squirted you with garden hoses. -- Dave Barry
            >
            >
            >
            > Community email addresses:
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          • kcncress@aol.com
            Do be careful to plan your design so s you can turn your daggs. I made a houpelande once, and had to completely redesign the sleeves, because the base got too
            Message 5 of 15 , Aug 14 5:13 AM
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              Do be careful to plan your design so's you can turn your daggs. I made a
              houpelande once, and had to completely redesign the sleeves, because the base
              got too skinny to get the bulk of the dagg through! It was icky!

              Fulled wool was *made* for dagging.

              -------------------Dejaniera,
              Barony of Forgotten Sea,
              Calontir


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Marcia Roth
              Hi Folks, I ve been reading all these e-mails about dags and such.. Being a milliner myself, these e-mails come to me and I always read them. Am I missing
              Message 6 of 15 , Aug 14 5:43 AM
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                Hi Folks, I've been reading all these e-mails about dags and such.. Being a milliner myself, these e-mails come to me and I always read them. Am I missing something? I NEVER understand a word you guys are saying.! What happened to felt and blocking and straw and draping and all those other things? Am I in Sherwood Forest and nobody told me? Please, someone let me know. Thanks, Marcia or should I say Merewyn, Princess of the Mountain
                kcncress@... wrote:Do be careful to plan your design so's you can turn your daggs. I made a
                houpelande once, and had to completely redesign the sleeves, because the base
                got too skinny to get the bulk of the dagg through! It was icky!

                Fulled wool was *made* for dagging.

                -------------------Dejaniera,
                Barony of Forgotten Sea,
                Calontir


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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              • kcncress@aol.com
                In a message dated 8/14/2002 5:45:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ... Merewyn.... There hasn t been much on pure millinery, but hoods are headwear too. If people
                Message 7 of 15 , Aug 14 7:24 AM
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                  In a message dated 8/14/2002 5:45:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
                  marciazhat@... writes:


                  > ? I NEVER understand a word you guys are saying.! What happened to felt
                  > and blocking and straw and draping and all those other things? Am I in
                  > Sherwood Forest and nobody told me?

                  Merewyn....
                  There hasn't been much on pure millinery, but hoods are headwear too. If
                  people have questions, answering is not a bad thing, huh? What sort of
                  millinery do you do?

                  ------Dejaniera


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Katherine Barich
                  I have hated to line garments for soooooo long, that I think I have finally learned to master this beast. The last liripipe hood I made, although it wasn t
                  Message 8 of 15 , Aug 14 12:27 PM
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                    I have hated to line garments for soooooo long, that I think I
                    have finally learned to master this beast.

                    The last liripipe hood I made, although it wasn't dagged, had the
                    lining 'pricked in' which is at least an Elizabethan method of
                    lining.

                    Instead of laying the fabrics right side together, sewing,
                    clipping, turning and pressing the garment, the lining is handsewn
                    to the outer fabric with tiny almost invisible overhand stitches
                    (prick stitch), while turning the edges in as you go after
                    preliminary pinning. Usually a 1/16" to 1/8" egde of the outer
                    fabric shows on the inside which is achieved by pulling the lining
                    up a little further than the outer fabric. This means your lining
                    won't show on the outside! Some people can achieve this by
                    cutting the lining a wee bit smaller than the outside fabric, but
                    I personally find it difficult achieve as nice a finish using a
                    machine - could be just me though. I know you could finish dags
                    with narrow pieces this way without having to worry about
                    turnings. I use this method almost exclusively now, the extra
                    time it takes generally is made up for in satisfaction of near
                    perfection and not having to tear the whole darn thing back apart
                    (again). There is a certain zen to this method, and I really like
                    to stand back and admire the beauty of the finish work. It is
                    considered a couture finish.

                    I think the most important watch point in any lining undertaking
                    is accurate cutting. I now cut one piece and cut the other piece
                    using the already cut piece as a pattern, using the iron to help,
                    if fabric allows (i.e. velvets can be tricky).

                    You can now stone me for obsession, but I must admit I have done
                    some elaborate slashed sleeves and bodices although haven't been
                    so crazy as to do a full dagged houppelande.

                    Katherine


                    ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
                    From: kcncress@...
                    Reply-To: SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 08:13:28 EDT

                    ><html><body>
                    >
                    >
                    ><tt>
                    >Do be careful to plan your design so's you can turn your daggs.  I made a <BR>
                    >houpelande once, and had to completely redesign the sleeves, because the base <BR>
                    >got too skinny to get the bulk of the dagg through!   It was icky!<BR>
                    ><BR>
                    >Fulled wool was *made* for dagging.<BR>
                    ><BR>
                    >                   -------------------Dejaniera,<BR>
                    >                                           Barony of Forgotten Sea,<BR>
                    >                                                 Calontir<BR>
                    ><BR>
                    ><BR>
                    >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<BR>
                    ><BR>
                    ></tt>
                    >
                    ><br>
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                  • andovere@netscape.net
                    I m sorry if this is way off topic. I m going to be doing two hoods and a houppe with dags. Your method sounds interesting. Is there somewhere that I can learn
                    Message 9 of 15 , Aug 14 1:07 PM
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                      I'm sorry if this is way off topic. I'm going to be doing two hoods and a houppe with dags. Your method sounds interesting. Is there somewhere that I can learn this stitch? Thanks.

                      Thyre

                      "Katherine Barich" <wheezul@...> wrote:

                      >
                      >I have hated to line garments for soooooo long, that I think I
                      >have finally learned to master this beast.
                      >
                      >The last liripipe hood I made, although it wasn't dagged, had the
                      >lining 'pricked in' which is at least an Elizabethan method of
                      >lining.
                      >
                      >Instead of laying the fabrics right side together, sewing,
                      >clipping, turning and pressing the garment, the lining is handsewn
                      >to the outer fabric with tiny almost invisible overhand stitches
                      >(prick stitch), while turning the edges in as you go after
                      >preliminary pinning.  Usually a 1/16" to 1/8" egde of the outer
                      >fabric shows on the inside which is achieved by pulling the lining
                      >up a little further than the outer fabric. This means your lining
                      >won't show on the outside!  Some people can achieve this by
                      >cutting the lining a wee bit smaller than the outside fabric, but
                      >I personally find it difficult achieve as nice a finish using a
                      >machine - could be just me though. I know you could finish dags
                      >with narrow pieces this way without having to worry about
                      >turnings.  I use this method almost exclusively now, the extra
                      >time it takes generally is made up for in satisfaction of near
                      >perfection and not having to tear the whole darn thing back apart
                      >(again).  There is a certain zen to this method, and I really like
                      >to stand back and admire the beauty of the finish work.  It is
                      >considered a couture finish.
                      >
                      >I think the most important watch point in any lining undertaking
                      >is accurate cutting.  I now cut one piece and cut the other piece
                      >using the already cut piece as a pattern, using the iron to help,
                      >if fabric allows (i.e. velvets can be tricky).
                      >
                      >You can now stone me for obsession, but I must admit I have done
                      >some elaborate slashed sleeves and bodices although haven't been
                      >so crazy as to do a full dagged houppelande.
                      >
                      >Katherine
                      >
                      >



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                    • Katherine Barich
                      ... From: andovere@netscape.net Reply-To: SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 16:07:18 -0400 ... hoods and a houppe with dags. Your method
                      Message 10 of 15 , Aug 14 2:19 PM
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                        ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
                        From: andovere@...
                        Reply-To: SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 16:07:18 -0400

                        ><html><body>
                        >
                        >
                        ><tt>
                        >I'm sorry if this is way off topic. I'm going to be doing two
                        hoods and a houppe with dags. Your method sounds interesting. Is
                        there somewhere that I can learn this stitch? Thanks.<BR>
                        ><BR>
                        >Thyre<BR>

                        Marquesa Laurellin's webpage:

                        http://www.vertetsable.com/easybody.htm#prick

                        shows a prick stitch, but it isn't the stitch I use. I use a
                        variant of the stitch shown above it - the overhand type of hemming
                        stitch but executed in tiny stitches, or a variant of the blind hem
                        stitch shown. It's really quite simple, just take a few pieces of
                        fabric and practice - try for making the stitches small enough just
                        to barely be seen.

                        PS. Lots of good info on Laurellin's page on several topics -
                        worth a good look if you have never been to the Renaissance Tailor
                        site.

                        Katherine



                        ><BR>
                        >"Katherine Barich" <wheezul@...> wrote:<BR>
                        ><BR>
                        >><BR>
                        >>I have hated to line garments for soooooo long, that I think
                        I<BR>
                        >>have finally learned to master this beast.<BR>
                        >><BR>
                        >>The last liripipe hood I made, although it wasn't dagged, had
                        the<BR>
                        >>lining 'pricked in' which is at least an Elizabethan method
                        of<BR>
                        >>lining.<BR>
                        >><BR>
                        >>Instead of laying the fabrics right side together, sewing,<BR>
                        >>clipping, turning and pressing the garment, the lining is
                        handsewn<BR>
                        >>to the outer fabric with tiny almost invisible overhand
                        stitches<BR>
                        >>(prick stitch), while turning the edges in as you go after<BR>
                        >>preliminary pinning.  Usually a 1/16" to 1/8" egde of the
                        outer<BR>
                        >>fabric shows on the inside which is achieved by pulling the
                        lining<BR>
                        >>up a little further than the outer fabric. This means your
                        lining<BR>
                        >>won't show on the outside!  Some people can achieve this by<BR>
                        >>cutting the lining a wee bit smaller than the outside fabric,
                        but<BR>
                        >>I personally find it difficult achieve as nice a finish using
                        a<BR>
                        >>machine - could be just me though. I know you could finish
                        dags<BR>
                        >>with narrow pieces this way without having to worry about<BR>
                        >>turnings.  I use this method almost exclusively now, the
                        extra<BR>
                        >>time it takes generally is made up for in satisfaction of
                        near<BR>
                        >>perfection and not having to tear the whole darn thing back
                        apart<BR>
                        >>(again).  There is a certain zen to this method, and I really
                        like<BR>
                        >>to stand back and admire the beauty of the finish work.  It
                        is<BR>
                        >>considered a couture finish.<BR>
                        >><BR>
                        >>I think the most important watch point in any lining
                        undertaking<BR>
                        >>is accurate cutting.  I now cut one piece and cut the other
                        piece<BR>
                        >>using the already cut piece as a pattern, using the iron to
                        help,<BR>
                        >>if fabric allows (i.e. velvets can be tricky).<BR>
                        >><BR>
                        >>You can now stone me for obsession, but I must admit I have
                        done<BR>
                        >>some elaborate slashed sleeves and bodices although haven't
                        been<BR>
                        >>so crazy as to do a full dagged houppelande.<BR>
                        >><BR>
                        >>Katherine<BR>
                        >><BR>
                        >><BR>
                        ><BR>
                        ><BR>
                        ><BR>
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                      • Bella
                        ... I use a variant of the stitch shown above it - the overhand type of hemming stitch but executed in tiny stitches, or a variant of the blind hem
                        Message 11 of 15 , Aug 14 5:33 PM
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                          --- Katherine Barich <wheezul@...> wrote:

                          <snipped> I use a variant of the stitch shown above it
                          - the overhand type of hemming stitch but executed in
                          tiny stitches, or a variant of the blind hem stitch
                          shown. It's really quite simple, just take a few
                          pieces of fabric and practice - try for making the
                          stitches small enough just to barely be seen.<<<<<


                          That's the same method I use - my mother, who was a
                          professional seamstress, showed me how to do it and it
                          works a treat. so far I've only used it to sew down
                          linings on a bodice.





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                        • Melanie
                          ... you can t bear wool and the look is sufficient, heathery polartec.) You just cut them ... Thanks for all the great advice!! I like the no sewing
                          Message 12 of 15 , Aug 15 4:13 AM
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                            >Also, for sinfully easy dags, use fulled wool (or if
                            you >can't bear wool and the "look" is sufficient,
                            heathery >polartec.) You just cut them
                            >dags out any old way you please; no hemming, no edge
                            >treatments, no long hours at the sewing machine.

                            Thanks for all the great advice!! I like the 'no
                            sewing dags' idea a LOT!(:

                            ~Dionysia

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                          • Cindy Myers
                            Well, I was really inspired by Katherine s description of pricking in the lining of garments, and the possibility that this could be applied to dags. I
                            Message 13 of 15 , Oct 2, 2002
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                              Well, I was really inspired by Katherine's description of 'pricking'
                              in the lining of garments, and the possibility that this could be
                              applied to dags.

                              I hadn't at the time ever made anything with dags...

                              True "inspiration" came when my apprentice brother was put on vigil
                              and my master declared that "we" would make a set of clothes for him
                              from the skin out. As a huntsman and falconer, he wanted to look
                              like the falconer from the Devonshire tapestries (which only shows a
                              view from the back!). To the ensemble, my master added a dagged hood
                              to match the cote, ala the Gaston Phoebus (Book of the Hunt)
                              pictures. Right.

                              So here's my story of the perfect dags, proving that I can take
                              complete and unashamed advantage of modern products to produce a
                              period look when properly motivated. (Yes, master. By next Saturday?
                              With handmade fabric buttons? Certainly, master!)

                              The hood was made of dark green cotton velveteen, with a dark blue
                              silk lining. The dags were to look like oak leaves. There were 30
                              of them. I tried out some samples...

                              First I tried the Draw it, sew the two layers together, cut out, snip
                              curves, turn and press method. For some reason they always came out
                              oddly shaped - rather narrower and not as curvy as I wanted, and it
                              was hard to get them fully turned out.

                              Next, I considered how to 'prick in' a lining around lots of curvy
                              curves while controlling two seam allowances... I cut the shapes out,
                              and laid them together right sides out, snipped the curves and tried
                              to fold them in together along a drawn line while stitching them
                              together by hand. I wasted a lot of time trying to poke the two seam
                              allowances under while checking that I was staying true to the
                              intended shape. It looked good! It just needed to be more efficient
                              and less frustrating.

                              So here's the method I finally used. I can't say how much time it
                              saved in the end, but it did save frustration and I was able to
                              produce some very uniform dags with it.

                              I inserted the shoulder gussets, but otherwise sewed the dags BEFORE
                              assembling the hood. It was a bit awkward, but worked for me. YMMV.

                              I used freezer paper, and cut out the bottom of the hood pattern,
                              from the dags up about 3". Four times for the hood (left and right
                              for velvet and lining each), and the same for the shoulder gussets.
                              When I traced the pattern onto the freezer paper, I made sure that I
                              turned the pattern OVER to trace the set for the lining - no pattern
                              is ever perfectly symmetrical, right? The shiny side of the freezer
                              paper could then be ironed onto the wrong side of the fabrics,
                              providing a nice paper edge against which to later turn the seam
                              allowances. I cut out the dag shapes, leaving about 1/4" of seam
                              allowance, and snipped the curves. Here's the truly sinful part. I
                              laid out the hood pieces with their paper-covered dags, and sprayed
                              all around the dags with fabric adhesive. (The washable kind! Do
                              this one portion at a time, as the glue dries and doesn't stick as
                              well.) Now I could fold up the seam allowances against the paper
                              edging, and stick them right to the paper. I did this for both the
                              velvet and the mirror image lining. Then I lined them both up and
                              stuck the lining to the velvet, wrong sides together, right side out.
                              Now all I had to do was hand stitch the edges together. For the most
                              part, the seam allowances stayed stuck under where they belonged, but
                              when they came out it wasn't so hard to tuck them back under again.
                              The paper gave me a nice firm edge to fold them against, and the
                              adhesive stayed tacky. The stitching took me about 10-12 hours in
                              itself. When I was finished, I filled my bathtub with warm water and
                              a little soap and let the two halves of the hood soak for a several
                              hours. Then I could reach in and gently pull the paper out of each
                              dag. I rinsed, rolled them up in a towel and laid them out to dry.
                              A light touch with the iron, and... Perfect Dags. :)

                              I assembled the hood, sewing lining to lining, velvet to velvet,
                              leaving open around the face opening and down the chin (where buttons
                              would be added later) for turning. I sewed this last part by hand
                              and it was finished!

                              For truly period dags, I still think fulled wool was the way to go,
                              but I had to work within certain restrictions.

                              Here are a bunch of pictures from the event. He made all the hunting
                              accessories to complete the look he wanted. I think he looked great.
                              :)

                              http://www.silkewerk.com/harvestday/index.html

                              Proud sister,
                              Emmelyne
                            • Cindy Myers
                              Oh, I forgot to say (but maybe it s assumed) you can click on any of the pictures for a bigger version. http://www.silkewerk.com/harvestday/Pages/Image9.html
                              Message 14 of 15 , Oct 2, 2002
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                                Oh, I forgot to say (but maybe it's assumed) you can click on any of
                                the pictures for a bigger version.

                                http://www.silkewerk.com/harvestday/Pages/Image9.html

                                shows the hood really well. ;)

                                -Emma
                              • janeravenswood
                                Wonderful hood, Emma! Looks like your technique worked great! Darka who should really be trying it herself..... ... of
                                Message 15 of 15 , Oct 2, 2002
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                                  Wonderful hood, Emma! Looks like your technique worked great!

                                  Darka
                                  who should really be trying it herself.....

                                  --- In SCA-Milliners@y..., Cindy Myers <emmelyne@s...> wrote:
                                  > Oh, I forgot to say (but maybe it's assumed) you can click on any
                                  of
                                  > the pictures for a bigger version.
                                  >
                                  > http://www.silkewerk.com/harvestday/Pages/Image9.html
                                  >
                                  > shows the hood really well. ;)
                                  >
                                  > -Emma
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