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RE: [SCA-Milliners] Any thoughts?

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  • Kellander, Rhonda
    This is the manuscript it came from.... From: Livy, Histoire Romaine Paris; c. 1380-1390 4th Decade: Book 1 Uninitiated Acarnanians worship the image of the
    Message 1 of 9 , Jul 9, 2002
      This is the manuscript it came from....
      From: Livy, Histoire Romaine
      Paris; c. 1380-1390
      "4th Decade: Book 1
      Uninitiated Acarnanians worship the image of the goddess Ceres (2nd of 4)"

      So my guess is that it would be "historical", and therefore, wearing of this
      particular hat in the SCA now would not be considered
      authentically correct? (I'm new at this authenticity thing.;)
      At least from what I have been told prior, anything "allegorical" should not
      be considered accurate and a no-no as documentation. Right/wrong?

      Rhie

      -----Original Message-----

      From the SPQR on the banner in the first illustration, I would
      guess that it is something 'Roman'. I think the illustration in
      question might depict Romans praying to Athena for victory.

      Just my guess.

      Katherine

      ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
      From: Grace Morris <gmorris@...>
      Reply-To: SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 11:40:15 -0400

      ><html><body>
      >
      >
      ><tt>
      >What is the subject of this illumination?  My bet is that it is
      allegorical<BR>
      >or "historical" thus the funky hats...<BR>
      ><BR>
      >Jessamyn<BR>
    • Cynthia Virtue
      ... It depends, and it varies. My own outlook is that I d be really, really happy if everyone in the SCA wore things that they took from even one medieval
      Message 2 of 9 , Jul 9, 2002
        > So my guess is that it would be "historical", and therefore, wearing of this
        > particular hat in the SCA now would not be considered
        > authentically correct?


        It depends, and it varies.

        My own outlook is that I'd be really, really happy if everyone in the
        SCA wore things that they took from even one medieval illustration,
        allegorical or not. However, if you want to be more strict with
        yourself, then allegorical/religious/fantastical stuff should be
        corroborated from a non-allegorical source. For example, their
        close-fitting dresses can be found other places, so there's a good
        chance that someone medieval wore such things.

        But those hats look like some sort of turban interpretation, and not one
        that I've seen elsewhere, so I'd be really cautious about using this as
        your only source for such headwear.

        --
        Cynthia Virtue and/or
        Cynthia du Pré Argent
      • Katherine Barich
        ... wearing of this ... should not ... Right/wrong? As with everything, there is the question: how far do you want to take it? Just because
        Message 3 of 9 , Jul 9, 2002
          >So my guess is that it would be "historical", and therefore,
          wearing of this<BR>
          >particular hat in the SCA now would not be considered <BR>
          >authentically correct? (I'm new at this authenticity thing.;)<BR>
          >At least from what I have been told prior, anything "allegorical"
          should not<BR>
          >be considered accurate and a no-no as documentation. 
          Right/wrong?<BR>


          As with everything, there is the question: "how far do you want to
          take it?" Just because something shows up in an allegorical
          presentation doesn't necessarily mean that it is worthless for
          documentation. You can often gather great clues about things from
          allegorical works, but should be prepared to back up your theories
          with other sources in a logical manner.

          I think a well-balanced approach is to find 3 examples of an item,
          when possible, with attention to finding some documentation showing
          somewhat normal usage (i.e. not allegorical) in the time period you
          are trying to represent.

          Sometimes this 3 item approach might take years, but heck, the fun
          is in the journey. I put items on the 'back burner' and make notes
          when I find something that will back up an earlier thought. A
          notebook with 'things I want to document better' that you can
          review to refresh your memory, say before going to a University
          library to check out their art collection.

          And then, you could always make a presentation as an allegorical
          figure - maybe as part of a mystery/passion play in this case - see
          Drea's allegorical/masque costume presentation on her page:

          http://costume.dm.net/wardrobe/masque.html

          Yet, sigh, more fascinating research possibilities.

          BTW, I think it would be cool if you could document the Devo hat.

          Katherine
        • Kellander, Rhonda
          ... I will keep that in mind. Thanks! ... Wild! It certainly gets the wheels a-turning, eh?! ... Oh me too! So far, this will make the 5th hat I have found
          Message 4 of 9 , Jul 9, 2002
            >I think a well-balanced approach is to find 3 examples of an item,
            >when possible, with attention to finding some documentation showing
            >somewhat normal usage (i.e. not allegorical) in the time period you
            >are trying to represent.

            I will keep that in mind. Thanks!

            >And then, you could always make a presentation as an allegorical
            >figure - maybe as part of a mystery/passion play in this case - see
            >Drea's allegorical/masque costume presentation on her page:
            >http://costume.dm.net/wardrobe/masque.html

            Wild! It certainly gets the wheels a-turning, eh?!

            >BTW, I think it would be cool if you could document the Devo hat.

            Oh me too! So far, this will make the 5th hat I have found that I REALLY
            want. 3 are documented so far, so that just leaves the Mad Hatter Hat(which
            is becoming discouraging) and the Devo hat.
            Keeping my fingers crossed. Thankfully I can sew well, so I will have
            complete outfits no problem! :)

            Rhie
          • No Body
            ... that it is ... I think you re correct. Under the right hand side it said something about the Romans vs. the Cartesians ... Which would probably point to
            Message 5 of 9 , Jul 10, 2002
              >What is the subject of this illumination? My bet is
              that >it is
              >allegorical
              >or "historical" thus the funky hats...

              I think you're correct. Under the right hand side it
              said something about 'the Romans vs. the
              Cartesians'... Which would probably point to something
              historical. Also the guy in the top left-hand panel
              holds a banner that reads 'S.P.Q.R.' which stands for
              'Senatus Populus Que Romanus' (I think I remember that
              correctly), which means 'the democratic republic of
              Rome'(:


              ~Dionysia

              =====
              *&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*
              -"There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man." -Winston Churchill

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            • Lynne Lowe
              Hi, I m new to the list so I haven t had a chance to say Hello. I m still looking in the past messages and files. However this phrase I remember from high
              Message 6 of 9 , Jul 11, 2002
                Hi,
                I'm new to the list so I haven't had a chance to say
                Hello. I'm still looking in the past messages and
                files. However this phrase I remember from high school
                Latin. It means "The Senate and People of Rome".
                Though I think the que was attached to word populus.
                We had problems looking at three words and finding
                four initials, which is one reason I remember it.

                Alycia Helena

                >
                > I think you're correct. Under the right hand side it
                > said something about 'the Romans vs. the
                > Cartesians'... Which would probably point to
                > something
                > historical. Also the guy in the top left-hand panel
                > holds a banner that reads 'S.P.Q.R.' which stands
                > for
                > 'Senatus Populus Que Romanus' (I think I remember
                > that
                > correctly), which means 'the democratic republic of
                > Rome'(:
                >
                >
                > ~Dionysia
                >
                > =====
                > *&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*
                > -"There is something about the outside of a horse
                > that is good for the inside of a man." -Winston
                > Churchill
                >
                > ______________________________


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