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Re: [SCA-Milliners] pillbox hat

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  • Caitriona Campbell
    Samia,      I know it s not period, but I perspire heavily and have the same problem with wilting buckram so I know what you mean.  I ve used plastic
    Message 1 of 22 , Apr 15, 2009
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      Samia,
           I know it's not period, but I perspire heavily and have the same problem with wilting buckram so I know what you mean.  I've used plastic canvas with great success in holding shape as intended.  You just need to make sure that the fabric is thick enough to hide the distinct pattern of the plastic underneath.  I only use it for the stand-up side and leave the top fabric only.

      Caitriona, Karen, DragonLady
      (My personality trinity)

      --- On Tue, 4/14/09, Samia al-Kaslaania <samia@...> wrote:


      From: Samia al-Kaslaania <samia@...>
      Subject: [SCA-Milliners] pillbox hat
      To: "SCA-Milliners" <SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com>
      Date: Tuesday, April 14, 2009, 8:00 PM








      Hello,

      I am going to make a pillbox hat for my 11th C Fatimid Egyptian persona.
      It will be used to hang a face veil from, and the top will be pinned
      through (I pin into little antenna braids on my head to keep things from
      slipping around).

      I've made a few that function as caps, but I would like one with a
      little more structure. I will sweat through it so buckram is out; and I
      get hot running around at events so quilting is out. Other suggestions?

      Samia



















      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Cynthia Virtue
      ... A layer of thin quilt batting will help this enormously. I recommend the thin cotton stuff (warm & natural?) because it will breathe better than the
      Message 2 of 22 , Apr 15, 2009
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        Caitriona Campbell wrote:
        > You just need to make sure that the fabric is thick enough to hide the distinct pattern of the plastic underneath.
        >
        >
        A layer of thin quilt batting will help this enormously. I recommend
        the thin cotton stuff (warm & natural?) because it will 'breathe' better
        than the usual slabs of polyfill. Tack it loosely to the plastic
        canvas, then measure for your fashion fabric covering. You might want
        to fold it over the bottom edge, to keep the plastic pokies away from
        your head.

        Another option is felted wool.

        --

        Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent


        "Such virtue hath my pen...." -Shakespeare, Sonnet 81

        "I knew this wasn't _my_ pen!" --Cynthia Virtue
      • Samia al-Kaslaania
        I ve thought about felted wool, but I hate to put the effort into it and discover it too warm. Maybe I ll look for an appropriate sized casserole to try it
        Message 3 of 22 , Apr 15, 2009
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          I've thought about felted wool, but I hate to put the effort into it and
          discover it too warm. Maybe I'll look for an appropriate sized casserole
          to try it anyway. :)

          Samia al-Kaslaania

          Cynthia Virtue wrote:
          > Another option is felted wool.
          >
        • Yvianne
          Plastic canvas is nice, but I have a bad history of packing incorrectly and accidentally crushing my hats. Having a fold in a hat where it doesn t belong, can
          Message 4 of 22 , Apr 15, 2009
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            Plastic canvas is nice, but I have a bad history of packing
            incorrectly and accidentally crushing my hats. Having a fold in a
            hat where it doesn't belong, can make the hat look wonky and be
            painful to wear (especially if the bent part is poking into your
            head) Sometimes the kink eventually works itself out of the
            plastic canvas base, sometimes it doesn't. :-(

            If I'm not using period materials, I usually opt for metal window
            screen as a substitute for buckram. The weave is so fine that it
            doesn't show on most fabrics and if/when a hat gets crushed in my
            bag I can easily work it back into shape with my fingers.

            It is as light but stiffer than buckram, waterproof, easy to work
            with and can be cut with general purpose scissors. One thing I
            don't like about it is that the ends of the tiny wires are pretty
            sharp. I fold the edges over on themselves and cover the sharp
            bits with a narrow piece of duct tape.

            Regards,
            Yvianne
          • Salli Weston, Scott Theisen
            I would look for a straw hat with the appropriate crown profile, cut it off and cover it. Of you can buy the supplies and make it yourself. Petranella On Wed,
            Message 5 of 22 , Apr 15, 2009
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              I would look for a straw hat with the appropriate crown profile, cut it off
              and cover it. Of you can buy the supplies and make it yourself.

              Petranella

              On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 8:50 AM, Samia al-Kaslaania <samia@...>wrote:

              I've thought about felted wool, but I hate to put the effort into it and
              discover it too warm. Maybe I'll look for an appropriate sized casserole
              to try it anyway. :)

              Samia al-Kaslaania

              Cynthia Virtue wrote:
              > Another option is felted wool.
              >

              __._,_


              .


              >
              >



              --
              Vladimir Radescu
              Petranella Fitzallen


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Samia al-Kaslaania
              And if you are using period materials? Samia
              Message 6 of 22 , Apr 15, 2009
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                And if you are using period materials?

                Samia

                Yvianne wrote:
                > If I'm not using period materials, I usually opt for metal window
                > screen as a substitute for buckram. The weave is so fine that it
                > doesn't show on most fabrics and if/when a hat gets crushed in my
                > bag I can easily work it back into shape with my fingers.
                >
              • Samia al-Kaslaania
                Will that get funky when I sweat through it? Samia
                Message 7 of 22 , Apr 15, 2009
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                  Will that get funky when I sweat through it?

                  Samia

                  Salli Weston, Scott Theisen wrote:
                  > I would look for a straw hat with the appropriate crown profile, cut it off
                  > and cover it. Of you can buy the supplies and make it yourself.
                  >
                  > Petranella
                • Salli Weston, Scott Theisen
                  Nope, Plant pots also work. I would put in some sort of linen sweat band that can be replaced though. ... -- Vladimir Radescu Petranella Fitzallen [Non-text
                  Message 8 of 22 , Apr 15, 2009
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                    Nope, Plant pots also work. I would put in some sort of linen sweat band
                    that can be replaced though.

                    On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 9:16 AM, Samia al-Kaslaania <samia@...>wrote:

                    >
                    >
                    > Will that get funky when I sweat through it?
                    >
                    > Samia
                    >
                    > Salli Weston, Scott Theisen wrote:
                    > > I would look for a straw hat with the appropriate crown profile, cut it
                    > off
                    > > and cover it. Of you can buy the supplies and make it yourself.
                    > >
                    > > Petranella
                    >
                    >
                    >



                    --
                    Vladimir Radescu
                    Petranella Fitzallen


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Samia al-Kaslaania
                    Nope, I ve read it three times and still don t get it: plant pots? Samia
                    Message 9 of 22 , Apr 15, 2009
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                      Nope, I've read it three times and still don't get it: plant pots?

                      Samia

                      Salli Weston, Scott Theisen wrote:
                      > Nope, Plant pots also work. I would put in some sort of linen sweat band
                      > that can be replaced though.
                    • Salli Weston, Scott Theisen
                      Wicker baskets for plant. they make great hennin among other things and straw is a period material for at least the western worls. ... -- Vladimir Radescu
                      Message 10 of 22 , Apr 15, 2009
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                        Wicker baskets for plant. they make great hennin among other things and
                        straw is a period material for at least the western worls.

                        On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 10:05 AM, Samia al-Kaslaania <samia@...>wrote:

                        >
                        >
                        > Nope, I've read it three times and still don't get it: plant pots?
                        >
                        > Samia
                        >
                        > Salli Weston, Scott Theisen wrote:
                        > > Nope, Plant pots also work. I would put in some sort of linen sweat band
                        > > that can be replaced though.
                        >
                        >
                        >



                        --
                        Vladimir Radescu
                        Petranella Fitzallen


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Lyonet
                        Plastic pots that you would put plants in. Found at the local Walmart, Home Depot, Lowes or plant source. Look at the pots near the plant section. Try them on
                        Message 11 of 22 , Apr 15, 2009
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                          Plastic pots that you would put plants in.
                          Found at the local Walmart, Home Depot, Lowes or plant source.
                          Look at the pots near the plant section.
                          Try them on your head for size.
                          A buddy and/or a small hand mirror will help in determination of the size of pot to use.

                          HTH,

                          Lyonet

                          ---- Samia al-Kaslaania <samia@...> wrote:
                          > Nope, I've read it three times and still don't get it: plant pots?
                          >
                          > Samia
                          >
                          > Salli Weston, Scott Theisen wrote:
                          > > Nope, Plant pots also work. I would put in some sort of linen sweat band
                          > > that can be replaced though.
                          >
                        • Yvianne
                          Depends on the type of hat :-) I ve used everything from reed and fully formed baskets to brass frames that I ve hand beaten from wire and formed into the
                          Message 12 of 22 , Apr 15, 2009
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                            Depends on the type of hat :-)

                            I've used everything from reed and fully formed baskets to brass
                            frames that I've hand beaten from wire and formed into the shapes
                            I needed. I've worked with felt (store bought and hand made),
                            buckram, layering and quilted material (stuffed and unstuffed).

                            The only thing I have yet to try, and really want to when I have
                            the time, is fabric stiffened with hide glue... which I haven't
                            been able to document but is a theory I've contemplated for a
                            long time. An idea born from a cross arts mind melt - I'm a
                            scribe and vellum maker as well as a costumer/milliner. It truly
                            was one of those, "Hey, you got your chocolate in my peanut
                            butter... " moments :-) If anyone has tried fabric stiffened
                            with hide glue I'd love to hear about your experience.

                            While I'm usually firmly against back documenting any project,
                            because of the lack of information available about period hats,
                            I've found it much easier to make a hat using modern materials
                            and then work backwards towards a plausible reconstruction of a
                            period item.

                            When it comes to hats I feel that:
                            Any attempt is much better than none.
                            If it looks and feels right ... Kudos, keep up the good work.
                            If it's documentable ... Wow, You ROCK!! :-)

                            Yvianne
                            AEthelmearc

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Samia al-Kaslaania" <samia@...>
                            To: <SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 10:16 AM
                            Subject: Re: [SCA-Milliners] Re: pillbox hat


                            > And if you are using period materials?
                            >
                            > Samia
                            >
                            > Yvianne wrote:
                            >> If I'm not using period materials, I usually opt for metal
                            >> window
                            >> screen as a substitute for buckram. The weave is so fine that
                            >> it
                            >> doesn't show on most fabrics and if/when a hat gets crushed in
                            >> my
                            >> bag I can easily work it back into shape with my fingers.
                            >>
                          • Christine Taylor
                            Plastic needlepoint canvas has been my shifty little secret for years. I have used it for pillboxes/brimless hats, French hoods, tall hats, and hennins. Great
                            Message 13 of 22 , Apr 15, 2009
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                              Plastic needlepoint canvas has been my shifty little secret for years. I
                              have used it for pillboxes/brimless hats, French hoods, tall hats, and
                              hennins. Great stuff! The only time I have a problem was when my 70-pound
                              dog with the big teeth got hold of my hennin and killed the nasty thing.
                              *sigh* (Worry not, I didn't kill the dog.) Anyway, works great.

                              Caitlin

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com]
                              On Behalf Of Caitriona Campbell
                              Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 6:34 AM
                              To: SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [SCA-Milliners] pillbox hat

                              Samia,
                                   I know it's not period, but I perspire heavily and have the same
                              problem with wilting buckram so I know what you mean.  I've used plastic
                              canvas with great success in holding shape as intended.  You just need to
                              make sure that the fabric is thick enough to hide the distinct pattern of
                              the plastic underneath.  I only use it for the stand-up side and leave the
                              top fabric only.

                              Caitriona, Karen, DragonLady
                              (My personality trinity)
                            • Cynthia Virtue
                              ... http://www.virtue.to/articles/images/cv_bourgone.jpg Has some (low quality) pictures of some of the types I ve used. Also
                              Message 14 of 22 , Apr 15, 2009
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                                Salli Weston, Scott Theisen wrote:
                                > Wicker baskets for plant. they make great hennin among other things and
                                > straw is a period material for at least the western worls.
                                >

                                http://www.virtue.to/articles/images/cv_bourgone.jpg

                                Has some (low quality) pictures of some of the types I've used.

                                Also
                                http://www.virtue.to/articles/straw.html

                                Shows one method of using straw hats to make a heart-shaped "saddle" hennin.

                                --

                                Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent


                                "Such virtue hath my pen...." -Shakespeare, Sonnet 81

                                "I knew this wasn't _my_ pen!" --Cynthia Virtue
                              • Leah Lloyd
                                Haven t tried hide glue yet, but Mistress Isabel of the East Kingdom used parchment as a base for her pleated toca 
                                Message 15 of 22 , Apr 15, 2009
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                                  Haven't tried hide glue yet, but Mistress Isabel of the East Kingdom used parchment as a base for her pleated toca  http://silverrylle.eastkingdom.org/research/index.html%c2%a0

                                  Danabren
                                  East



                                  From: Yvianne <yvianne@...>
                                  Subject: [SCA-Milliners] Re: pillbox hat
                                  To: SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Wednesday, April 15, 2009, 11:18 AM









                                  The only thing I have yet to try, and really want to when I have
                                  the time, is fabric stiffened with hide glue... which I haven't
                                  been able to document but is a theory I've contemplated for a
                                  long time. An idea born from a cross arts mind melt - I'm a
                                  scribe and vellum maker as well as a costumer/milliner. It truly
                                  was one of those, "Hey, you got your chocolate in my peanut
                                  butter... " moments :-) If anyone has tried fabric stiffened
                                  with hide glue I'd love to hear about your experience.





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                                • Yvianne
                                  There s this extant vellum form too http://www.hf.uib.no/i/nordisk/handbok/illustrasjonar/Ill_1-7_(bispehatt).jpg I love all of the holes from where the
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Apr 15, 2009
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                                    There's this extant vellum form too
                                    http://www.hf.uib.no/i/nordisk/handbok/illustrasjonar/Ill_1-7_(bispehatt).jpg
                                    I love all of the holes from where the covering and
                                    embellishments were once attached.
                                    If you look closely on the right hand side you can see a tiny bit
                                    of the stitches that hold the edges of the vellum together

                                    Funny, I always seem to have better things to do with vellum.
                                    Which reminds me ... if I don't quit chatting about hats I'll
                                    never have the scroll I'm working on done for Saturday's event.

                                    Off to the easel :-)

                                    Yvianne

                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "Leah Lloyd" <danabren@...>
                                    To: <SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 11:49 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [SCA-Milliners] Re: pillbox hat


                                    Haven't tried hide glue yet, but Mistress Isabel of the East
                                    Kingdom used parchment as a base for her pleated toca
                                    http://silverrylle.eastkingdom.org/research/index.html

                                    Danabren
                                    East
                                  • unclrashid
                                    I haven t used hide glue for hats, but I have used it for gilding. It has a vaguely unpleasant smell, sort of in-between dog food and meat that s a bit off.
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Apr 17, 2009
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                                      I haven't used hide glue for hats, but I have used it for gilding. It has a vaguely unpleasant smell, sort of in-between dog food and meat that's a bit off. It's not a strong smell, but still, it's made me hesitate. The smell goes away when it dries, but I have to wonder if it would return if you got your hat all warm and sweaty.

                                      Rashid


                                      --- In SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com, Leah Lloyd <danabren@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Haven't tried hide glue yet, but Mistress Isabel of the East Kingdom used parchment as a base for her pleated toca  http://silverrylle.eastkingdom.org/research/index.html%c2%a0
                                      >
                                      > Danabren
                                      > East
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • Yvianne
                                      From what I know from vellum making and scribal arts... Deer vellum smells like venison for about a year then the odor disappears. Goat has a surprisingly
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Apr 19, 2009
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                                        From what I know from vellum making and scribal arts...

                                        Deer vellum smells like venison for about a year then the odor
                                        disappears.
                                        Goat has a surprisingly pleasant, smell when it's first made but
                                        that goes away in a few weeks.
                                        Sheep skin is greasy. There's not much of a scent but I can see
                                        where it has the potential to go rancid as any residual oil ages.
                                        I've never rewet a piece of deer or sheep after more that a year
                                        has passed. The goat skin parchment I did rewet had no noticeable
                                        odor... much to my dismay since it originally smelled like
                                        incense, without the smoke.

                                        I've never experienced the smell you describe in hide glue. I'm
                                        curious if you make your own or buy it in dried or liquid form?
                                        The only time I've had trouble with the smell of hide glue is
                                        when I was heating it and didn't stir it as often as I should
                                        have. It smelled like burnt hair ... I couldn't get it outside
                                        and in the garbage fast enough.

                                        Yvianne
                                        AEthelmearc


                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "unclrashid" <unclrashid@...>
                                        To: <SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 9:52 AM
                                        Subject: [SCA-Milliners] Re: pillbox hat


                                        I haven't used hide glue for hats, but I have used it for
                                        gilding. It has a vaguely unpleasant smell, sort of in-between
                                        dog food and meat that's a bit off. It's not a strong smell, but
                                        still, it's made me hesitate. The smell goes away when it dries,
                                        but I have to wonder if it would return if you got your hat all
                                        warm and sweaty.

                                        Rashid
                                      • Dianne
                                        If I m not using period materials, I usually opt for metal window screen as a substitute for buckram. The weave is so fine that it doesn t show on most fabrics
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Apr 20, 2009
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                                          If I'm not using period materials, I usually opt for metal window
                                          screen as a substitute for buckram. The weave is so fine that it
                                          doesn't show on most fabrics and if/when a hat gets crushed in my
                                          bag I can easily work it back into shape with my fingers.

                                          It is as light but stiffer than buckram, waterproof, easy to work
                                          with and can be cut with general purpose scissors. One thing I
                                          don't like about it is that the ends of the tiny wires are pretty
                                          sharp. I fold the edges over on themselves and cover the sharp
                                          bits with a narrow piece of duct tape.

                                          Regards,
                                          Yvianne >>

                                          That's brilliant. I hate working with plastic canvas.

                                          Laurensa

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • unclrashid
                                          ... I was using dried pellets of rabbit-skin glue. It might be that it was old when I bought it. Or it may just be a factor of what smells you like and what
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Apr 20, 2009
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                                            --- In SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com, "Yvianne" <yvianne@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > I've never experienced the smell you describe in hide glue. I'm
                                            > curious if you make your own or buy it in dried or liquid form?
                                            > The only time I've had trouble with the smell of hide glue is
                                            > when I was heating it and didn't stir it as often as I should
                                            > have. It smelled like burnt hair ... I couldn't get it outside
                                            > and in the garbage fast enough.
                                            >

                                            I was using dried pellets of rabbit-skin glue. It might be that it was old when I bought it. Or it may just be a factor of what smells you like and what you don't like. I dislike the smell of many "natural" soaps because they have an underote that strikes me as "meaty". I'm not sure if it comes from the glycerin or the oil. I also don't care for the smell of raw meat.

                                            Rashid
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