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hat's challenge - translation file

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  • medusa_medici
    Rather than take the chance that I really goof up the punctuation or misstype or something, I ve uploaded the page the liberty hat is on the Viollet-le-Duc
    Message 1 of 8 , Feb 22, 2002
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      Rather than take the chance that I really goof up the punctuation or
      misstype or something, I've uploaded the page the "liberty" hat is on
      the Viollet-le-Duc book so you all can translate it. : ) It's in
      a .jpg format, essentially a picture of the page but I've viewed it
      and it's very clear. I'm really interested in hearing what a true
      French reader says verses my dreadful computer translation
      application.

      Eagerly awaiting your replies, Cate
    • Cynthia Virtue
      The other two pictures aren t far from the things I ve seen, aside from the edge-decoration on the veil, which I ve only seen in italian pictures late in the
      Message 2 of 8 , Feb 22, 2002
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        The other two pictures aren't far from the things I've seen, aside from
        the edge-decoration on the veil, which I've only seen in italian
        pictures late in the 1400s. I wish I spoke/read French better...

        --
        Cynthia Virtue and/or
        Cynthia du Pré Argent

        It takes a village -- to raise a new mother.
      • Alianora de Grey
        Oooh, I m doing a hat similar to the one on the left hand page for my Queen s Prize competition next week. It s actually nice in this one to see where they
        Message 3 of 8 , Feb 22, 2002
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          Oooh, I'm doing a hat similar to the one on the left hand page for my
          Queen's Prize competition next week. It's actually nice in this one to see
          where they put the pearls on it.

          Not that that helps a bit with what YOU want. I'll see about posting a
          picture of it when I'm done, if anyone's interested.

          Alianora de Grey

          ----Original Message Follows----
          From: "medusa_medici" <camp_inc@...>
          Reply-To: SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com
          To: SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [SCA-Milliners] hat's challenge - translation file
          Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 23:58:40 -0000

          Rather than take the chance that I really goof up the punctuation or
          misstype or something, I've uploaded the page the "liberty" hat is on
          the Viollet-le-Duc book so you all can translate it. : ) It's in
          a .jpg format, essentially a picture of the page but I've viewed it
          and it's very clear. I'm really interested in hearing what a true
          French reader says verses my dreadful computer translation
          application.

          Eagerly awaiting your replies, Cate



          _________________________________________________________________
          Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
        • Rob Downie
          Well, I haven t spoken French for 10 years, but I was semi-fluent then (could read and understand better than speak) so I ll give it a try: ...of the two
          Message 4 of 8 , Feb 22, 2002
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            Well, I haven't spoken French for 10 years, but I was semi-fluent then
            (could read and understand better than speak) so I'll give it a try:

            ...of the two "earlobes" of this roll/fold is attatched a row of gold
            beads. The veil is edged in gold (butterflies?-no, that's papillons!).
            Sometimes a gem/jewel is placed where the two rolls meet and atype of
            double crest of rich jewels goes with the rolls.

            The strangeness of these headresses surpasses that which the wildest
            immagination could dream. In this fashion, [l'escoffion] in the form of
            a turban in figure is sometimes accompanied by three ornately bejeweled
            horns. A veil covers the whole headpiece and falls down the neck in two
            folds/slopes ending in a long tail. These horns are made of black
            fabric, most likely velvet to better make the gold and gems stand
            out.The hair is visible, carefully divided in waves/rolls seperated by
            very delicate black and gold braids attatched behind [the hat] and
            falling in a long loose tail.

            In studying the other otherminiatures of this manuscript, we find a
            great variety in this jewelry/finery and the styles are not obligated to
            all be alike, such that one grows obligated to copy the next like
            nowadays certain classic examples aknowledge. One may suppose that
            women consultedthe mirror more often than popular fashion and that they
            changed styles to flatter their physical appearance.

            We are left with no doubt that these garments and the jewels that
            adorned them cost great fortunes and that this was no obstacle to the
            rapidly changing cut of the garments. That the Bourgeoise kept their
            dresses for many years to be prepared for important occasions is
            possible, but this custom did not exist in the Noble households. The
            style style of clothes and hairstyle/headdress changed from one year to
            the next, if possible a self respecting Lady would avoid wearing an
            outdated gown.

            The differences that from far away appear to us (common sense? not worth
            the trouble?) shocked contemporaries seems much like today ridiculous,
            and ridicule has always inspired a real fear in France.[this must be
            commenting on extravagance to extreme exess]The appearance of such rich
            and numerous jewels on the clothing of French Ladies during the 15th c
            that this luxury would hereafter retain a certain relative moderation.

            No longer do we have a happy/fortunate cup, from a certain lack of
            interest in the manner of wearing clothes to the variety of new
            materials, to the tranquil harmony of their shades, to the profusion of
            of more suptuous materials, save always for certain clothes for
            formal/solemn occasions. It was not the same, as we have already
            mentioned, in Italy and Spain...

            Well, that's the best I could manage. It doesn't provide much actual
            useful information does it? More like a social commentary. Kinda'
            lengthy for my first post!

            Baroness Faerisa Gwynarden
            Barony of Castel Rouge
            Principality of Northshield
            Middle Kingdom

            medusa_medici wrote:

            > Rather than take the chance that I really goof up the punctuation or
            > misstype or something, I've uploaded the page the "liberty" hat is on
            > the Viollet-le-Duc book so you all can translate it. : ) It's in
            > a .jpg format, essentially a picture of the page but I've viewed it
            > and it's very clear. I'm really interested in hearing what a true
            > French reader says verses my dreadful computer translation
            > application.
            >
            > Eagerly awaiting your replies, Cate
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • kcncress@aol.com
            Alianora.... What do you call your hat? And yes, we d love to see it! ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            Message 5 of 8 , Feb 23, 2002
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              Alianora....
              What do you call your hat? And yes, we'd love to see it!
              ---------Dejanira


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • medusa_medici
              Thank you Excellency for such a nice translation. Yep, black velvet with jewels... that s all I got out of the translation tool I used as well. I think that
              Message 6 of 8 , Feb 23, 2002
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                Thank you Excellency for such a nice translation. Yep, black velvet
                with jewels... that's all I got out of the translation tool I used as
                well. I think that maybe since he couldn't actually provide the
                historical references for the existence of such a hat, he decided to
                talk about the extravagant times instead. Cate


                --- In SCA-Milliners@y..., Rob Downie <rdownie@i...> wrote:
                > Well, I haven't spoken French for 10 years, but I was semi-fluent
                then
                > (could read and understand better than speak) so I'll give it a try:
                >
                >
                > Baroness Faerisa Gwynarden
                > Barony of Castel Rouge
                > Principality of Northshield
                > Middle Kingdom
                >
              • Katherine Barich
                I gave the article a quick read through, and he specifically references this manuscript as if he is referring to a specific source. Sometimes in Victorian
                Message 7 of 8 , Feb 25, 2002
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                  I gave the article a quick read through, and he specifically
                  references "this manuscript" as if he is referring to a specific
                  source. Sometimes in Victorian works, especially if you are
                  looking at a later reprints, the editors take it upon themselves to
                  change the order of presentation and what few citations there are
                  can get mixed up. Often times sources are better identified in a
                  different section, and careful study of the text will pay off with
                  an actual source. A good example of this is Hottenroth's Handbuch
                  der Deutschen Tracht, or its French translation, which skips around
                  in time period but has some source information "buried" as it were.

                  I suspect from this that he made these drawings by looking at some
                  sort of illumination, and from how he words it, a specifically
                  French manuscript. While I am quite sure that he probably
                  mis-interpreted the original, he has left some clues about his
                  source, which, if you're really interested in this hat, may be
                  worth ferreting out.

                  Katherine
                  (ferret keeper!)

                  ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
                  From: "medusa_medici" <camp_inc@...>
                  Reply-To: SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 15:16:49 -0000

                  ><html><body>
                  >
                  >
                  ><tt>
                  >Thank you Excellency for such a nice translation.� Yep, black
                  velvet <BR>
                  >with jewels... that's all I got out of the translation tool I used
                  as <BR>
                  >well.� I think that maybe since he couldn't actually provide the
                  <BR>
                  >historical references for the existence of such a hat, he decided
                  to <BR>
                  >talk about the extravagant times instead.� Cate<BR>
                  ><BR>
                  ><BR>
                  >--- In SCA-Milliners@y..., Rob Downie <rdownie@i...> wrote:<BR>
                  >> Well, I haven't spoken French for 10 years, but I was
                  semi-fluent <BR>
                  >then<BR>
                  >> (could read and understand better than speak) so I'll give it a
                  try:<BR>
                  >> <BR>
                  >> <BR>
                  >> Baroness Faerisa Gwynarden<BR>
                  >> Barony of Castel Rouge<BR>
                  >> Principality of Northshield<BR>
                  >> Middle Kingdom<BR>
                  >> <BR>
                  ><BR>
                  ><BR>
                  ></tt>
                  >
                  ><br>
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                • medusa_medici
                  ... Someone on the Medieval-L list (I think it was) said footnotes should be at the bottom of the page Where God intended them! . I thought that was amusing
                  Message 8 of 8 , Feb 25, 2002
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                    > I suspect from this that he made these drawings by looking at some
                    > sort of illumination, and from how he words it, a specifically
                    > French manuscript. While I am quite sure that he probably
                    > mis-interpreted the original, he has left some clues about his
                    > source, which, if you're really interested in this hat, may be
                    > worth ferreting out.
                    >
                    > Katherine
                    > (ferret keeper!)

                    Someone on the Medieval-L list (I think it was) said footnotes should
                    be at the bottom of the page "Where God intended them!". I thought
                    that was amusing and relevant. I tend to agree... in fact, I
                    wouldn't mind the reference in smaller type set into the paragraph
                    even. Just my taste though. Cate
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