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Re: [SCA-Milliners] Re: houppelande hat

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  • Cynthia Virtue
    ... I think it could be done, but it would be complex, with wire and so on, but I suspect that the way it was done at the time was felted, and then covered
    Message 1 of 18 , Jan 10, 2008
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      Cindy Myers wrote:
      > I agree with Cynthia on the shape. I don't think you'll be able to
      > achieve it with fabric-over-support because of the curling twist in it.
      >
      >

      I think it could be done, but it would be complex, with wire and so on,
      but I suspect that the way it was done at the time was felted, and then
      covered with fashion fabric. Or maybe not covered, if you had dyed
      wool.... Hmm.

      The original picture link is here:
      http://www.personal.us.es/alporu/Images/sevillahist/banquero_vanreymerswaele.jpg

      I believe it is the original image, not a re-working. There are some
      other hats that shape, too.

      Now a quibble: This probably isn't a houppelande. I use that term for
      the outrageous upper class garments. This one is more likely the
      upper-middle class version; rich, but not ridiculous, with narrower
      sleeves, and probably a floor length hem instead of several feet past
      the floor. But this is a quibble and I expect some people would call it
      a houppelande anyway, and that's ok.

      cv
    • Truly Carmichael
      Hi there - I think you can do pretty much anything with fabric over support - it s the making of the complex support that will be hard. You can make a wire
      Message 2 of 18 , Jan 10, 2008
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        Hi there -

        I think you can do pretty much anything with fabric over support - it's the making of the complex support that will be hard. You can make a wire frame in any shape - you just need to know what you are actually making-and that's where I find this sort of shape pretty difficult. Not having side views or back views - you will have to decide what those shapes look like to you, and maybe scribble yourself some designs from those angles.

        OR - (total non-drawing method) I've actually found that plasticine clay and a GI Joe type action figure are VERY helpful for sculpting the shape to help figure out what the darn things acually might look like.

        Once that's decided - you need millinery wire, masking tape, tie wire, needle nose pliars, clear fast-drying glue, and a styrofoam head or canvas head block to work from.

        Then you build the wire form - using this sort of technique: http://www.farthingales.on.ca/elizabethan_wired_ruff.html
        (I know I know - it's a standing ruff/supportasse thing, not a hat - but it's a really awesome website anyway - and it's got great instructions:) You would want to use more frequent support wires than the ruff shows - to ensure the roundness of the horn shapes - but in general - it's the same idea. If you have or have access to the book - "From the Neck Up" - there's a full description in there of wire form making.

        After you have a nice supported frame - then you'd cover it with wide horsehair braid or horsehair fabric if you can get it. I've also heard of using tulle (like ballet net) to cover the wires. THEN you can "mull" the covered form with flannel or domette (which isn't called that anymore, I think....but I don't remember what it's called now...argh!) And THEN cover it with your fashion fabric - cut on the bias, of course, so it's all nice and smooth.

        Felt over a form would definitely work too - but you would need to make the rigid form first - and that might prove harder than the wire unless you are proficient at making plaster molds, or want to carve one out of wood. Then you ask yourself how many of these are you planning tomake : )

        Milled and wired hats really EAT hours and hours of time. It's why I don't sell my French hoods very often. I have over 12 hours of work in each one, plus materials costs - and not many people want to spend that much on a hat (understandably). The one you are talking about will almost certainly take WAY longer than 12 hours...BUT it'd be SO COOL :)

        I'd LOVE to see you tackle this - but I'm not volunteering to try it first ; )

        Eleanor Fairchild/Truly Carmichael
        www.trulyhats.com


        Canadian Daytime number: 519-843-2117
        If no answer at above: 519 787 2399


        ----- Original Message ----
        From: Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue@...>
        To: SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 12:22:21 PM
        Subject: Re: [SCA-Milliners] Re: houppelande hat

        Cindy Myers wrote:
        > I agree with Cynthia on the shape. I don't think you'll be able to
        > achieve it with fabric-over- support because of the curling twist in it.
        >
        >

        I think it could be done, but it would be complex, with wire and so on,
        but I suspect that the way it was done at the time was felted, and then
        covered with fashion fabric. Or maybe not covered, if you had dyed
        wool.... Hmm.

        The original picture link is here:
        http://www.personal .us.es/alporu/ Images/sevillahi st/banquero_ vanreymerswaele. jpg

        I believe it is the original image, not a re-working. There are some
        other hats that shape, too.

        Now a quibble: This probably isn't a houppelande. I use that term for
        the outrageous upper class garments. This one is more likely the
        upper-middle class version; rich, but not ridiculous, with narrower
        sleeves, and probably a floor length hem instead of several feet past
        the floor. But this is a quibble and I expect some people would call it
        a houppelande anyway, and that's ok.

        cv




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      • Leah Lloyd
        I call them Bathrobe houppes . Danabren Cynthia Virtue wrote: Now a quibble: This probably isn t a houppelande. I use that term for the
        Message 3 of 18 , Jan 10, 2008
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          I call them "Bathrobe houppes".

          Danabren

          Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue@...> wrote:

          Now a quibble: This probably isn't a houppelande. I use that term for
          the outrageous upper class garments. This one is more likely the
          upper-middle class version; rich, but not ridiculous, with narrower
          sleeves, and probably a floor length hem instead of several feet past
          the floor. But this is a quibble and I expect some people would call it
          a houppelande anyway, and that's ok.

          cv



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        • Cynthia Virtue
          ... What a great site! Wish I d had some of those techniques when I made my first wireframe hat ( http://www.virtue.to/articles/reticulated.html ) Hats, you
          Message 4 of 18 , Jan 10, 2008
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            Truly Carmichael wrote:
            > Once that's decided - you need millinery wire, masking tape, tie wire, needle nose pliars, clear fast-drying glue, and a styrofoam head or canvas head block to work from.
            >
            > Then you build the wire form - using this sort of technique: http://www.farthingales.on.ca/elizabethan_wired_ruff.html
            >

            What a great site! Wish I'd had some of those techniques when I made my
            first wireframe hat ( http://www.virtue.to/articles/reticulated.html )

            Hats, you have to keep fitting to your head as you make them. They look
            very odd, half-completed in the mirror!

            cv
          • borderlands15213
            ... I m betting it isn t. :-D What I m expecting to discover is that it is simplicity itself. (Scanned ahead a bit, and noted some commentary about wire
            Message 5 of 18 , Jan 10, 2008
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              --- In SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com, Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue@...> wrote:
              >
              > I think the shape is not merely elongated, but twisted. It reminds me
              > of a fat water-buffalo horns. It would be quite complex to make right,
              > I think!
              >
              > cv
              >
              I'm betting it isn't. :-D What I'm expecting to discover is that it
              is simplicity itself. (Scanned ahead a bit, and noted some commentary
              about wire and framework and so forth, and I'm betting that it's
              either non-existant in that headress, or minimal. Well, time and a
              bit more experimenting will tell.)
              It *does* look like fat water buffalo horns; I don't disagree with
              you, there, but I think the shape that's cut out and then sewn and
              whatever'd into that "horned" headdress is a slightly elongated
              oblong, and I was referring to the shape of the piece of fabric, and
              not the finished three-dimensional shape of the hat/headdress.
              I'd also assumed that the "cut shape" was what Samia was asking
              about---my bad if I got that part wrong.

              Yseult the Gentle
            • Cynthia Virtue
              ... So are you thinking it is a simple cone, or something like that? A flat shape which when you put it on the head, bows out the right way? Here are two
              Message 6 of 18 , Jan 10, 2008
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                > I'm betting it isn't. :-D What I'm expecting to discover is that it
                > is simplicity itself. (Scanned ahead a bit, and noted some commentary
                > about wire and framework and so forth, and I'm betting that it's
                > either non-existant in that headress, or minimal. Well, time and a
                > bit more experimenting will tell.)
                > It *does* look like fat water buffalo horns; I don't disagree with
                > you, there, but I think the shape that's cut out and then sewn and
                > whatever'd into that "horned" headdress is a slightly elongated
                > oblong, and I was referring to the shape of the piece of fabric, and
                > not the finished three-dimensional shape of the hat/headdress.
                > I'd also assumed that the "cut shape" was what Samia was asking
                > about---my bad if I got that part wrong.

                So are you thinking it is a simple cone, or something like that? A flat
                shape which when you put it on the head, bows out the right way?

                Here are two enlargements of the two paintings, which show the pattern
                embroidered (or whatever) on the horns, and shows the shaping a lot
                better than the tiny picture:

                http://www.wga.hu/art/r/reymersw/mchanger.jpg

                http://www.wga.hu/art/r/reymersw/banker_w.jpg

                Middle-class men's clothing enthusiasts will enjoy the man's coat
                shoulder details on the first link, but the second picture is not the
                same construction.

                cv
              • Cynthia Virtue
                ... Oops. It s the banker one with the interesting seam treatment.
                Message 7 of 18 , Jan 10, 2008
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                  >
                  > http://www.wga.hu/art/r/reymersw/mchanger.jpg
                  >
                  > http://www.wga.hu/art/r/reymersw/banker_w.jpg
                  >
                  > Middle-class men's clothing enthusiasts will enjoy the man's coat
                  > shoulder details on the first link, but the second picture is not the
                  > same construction.

                  Oops. It's the "banker" one with the interesting seam treatment.
                • borderlands15213
                  ... flat ... Hmm...that doesn t seem to quite fit the bill, and no, I wasn t thinking of that, or not that way, or something. No, I m not sure what I was or am
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jan 10, 2008
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                    --- In SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com, Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > > I'm betting it isn't. :-D What I'm expecting to discover is that it
                    > > is simplicity itself. (Scanned ahead a bit, and noted some commentary
                    > > about wire and framework and so forth, and I'm betting that it's
                    > > either non-existant in that headress, or minimal. Well, time and a
                    > > bit more experimenting will tell.)
                    > > It *does* look like fat water buffalo horns; I don't disagree with
                    > > you, there, but I think the shape that's cut out and then sewn and
                    > > whatever'd into that "horned" headdress is a slightly elongated
                    > > oblong, and I was referring to the shape of the piece of fabric, and
                    > > not the finished three-dimensional shape of the hat/headdress.
                    > > I'd also assumed that the "cut shape" was what Samia was asking
                    > > about---my bad if I got that part wrong.
                    >
                    > So are you thinking it is a simple cone, or something like that? A
                    flat
                    > shape which when you put it on the head, bows out the right way?

                    Hmm...that doesn't seem to quite fit the bill, and no, I wasn't
                    thinking of that, or not that way, or something.
                    No, I'm not sure what I was or am thinking, just that there are a
                    couple avenues of exploration that are beckoning to me.
                    I had experimented with this hat a bit a year or more ago, and never
                    got back to it.
                    Lately I've had to scramble on other matters, so that hat, which isn't
                    in "my" century, anyway, sort of got pushed to the end of the line of
                    projects.


                    >
                    > Here are two enlargements of the two paintings, which show the pattern
                    > embroidered (or whatever) on the horns, and shows the shaping a lot
                    > better than the tiny picture:
                    >
                    > http://www.wga.hu/art/r/reymersw/mchanger.jpg
                    >
                    > http://www.wga.hu/art/r/reymersw/banker_w.jpg

                    Thanks for these; I've seen large prints (well, large enough) of the
                    painting; I believe I may have a print in an old "Medieval Woman"
                    calendar by Workman Publishing.

                    Glad this came up: I'm eager to get back to this...inquiry I'd undertaken!

                    Yseult the Gentle
                  • Cynthia Virtue
                    ... Oh, good -- I m glad I asked, because I don t think it would work, but I wanted to try and understand you! cv
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jan 10, 2008
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                      borderlands15213 wrote:
                      >
                      >> So are you thinking it is a simple cone, or something like that? A
                      >>
                      > flat
                      >
                      >> shape which when you put it on the head, bows out the right way?
                      >>
                      >
                      > Hmm...that doesn't seem to quite fit the bill, and no, I wasn't
                      > thinking of that, or not that way, or something.
                      >

                      Oh, good -- I'm glad I asked, because I don't think it would work, but
                      I wanted to try and understand you!

                      cv
                    • Samia al-Kaslaania
                      Thank you for the larger images, I find and save my inspirations to my hard drive and then can t reference others to them when I start doing the research. Do
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jan 11, 2008
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                        Thank you for the larger images, I find and save my inspirations to my
                        hard drive and then can't reference others to them when I start doing
                        the research. Do art historians know which came first? I always assumed
                        the second one listed because of the "crisper" image.

                        I was looking at the second image specifically for my inspiration. I see
                        that shape as having a flat top, but I believe that the hat retains it's
                        shape when off the head.

                        The regular pattern on the body of the hat suggests pattern-woven fabric
                        to me, rather than embroidery.

                        I have formal training in constructing hat frames, the daunting part is
                        getting the shape right. Since I would like to have this for 12th night,
                        I was hoping to use the Cliffs Notes of someone else's research. I
                        suppose creating the research will be my after-work-settles-down
                        endeavor. :)

                        I do think it's interesting that his garment looks to be gathered at the
                        shoulder on the front body. The sleeve appears to have a cap stiffener,
                        looking with my bridal gown eye.

                        Samia

                        Cynthia Virtue wrote:
                        > So are you thinking it is a simple cone, or something like that? A flat
                        > shape which when you put it on the head, bows out the right way?
                        >
                        > Here are two enlargements of the two paintings, which show the pattern
                        > embroidered (or whatever) on the horns, and shows the shaping a lot
                        > better than the tiny picture:
                        >
                        > http://www.wga.hu/art/r/reymersw/mchanger.jpg
                        >
                        > http://www.wga.hu/art/r/reymersw/banker_w.jpg
                      • unclrashid
                        ... the ... Now that I see these, I m thinking it s not as complex as I was thinking at first. It looks like you could get very close to this shape by taking
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jan 11, 2008
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                          --- In SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com, Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > >
                          > > http://www.wga.hu/art/r/reymersw/mchanger.jpg
                          > >
                          > > http://www.wga.hu/art/r/reymersw/banker_w.jpg
                          > >
                          > > Middle-class men's clothing enthusiasts will enjoy the man's coat
                          > > shoulder details on the first link, but the second picture is not
                          the
                          > > same construction.
                          >

                          Now that I see these, I'm thinking it's not as complex as I was
                          thinking at first. It looks like you could get very close to this
                          shape by taking two flat pieces of felt or boiled wool shaped like
                          the outline of this hat (a circle with two "horns"), cutting a head-
                          opening in one, sewing them together and adding a little stuffing to
                          the horns. The rest of the curve would occur when you put it on your
                          head and the fabric is shaped by the head.

                          It might even be possible to get a similar shape by connecting your
                          two pieces on a fold line.

                          I'm not as keen on the wired foundation because I've found that I
                          always get a bit of the "zeppelin effect" with them, no matter how
                          much padding I use. (by zeppelin effect, I mean the wire frame shows
                          through, sort of cutting what should be a smooth curve into flat
                          segments.

                          Rashid
                        • Truly Carmichael
                          ... getting the shape right. Indeed :) Where did you train? Tell, tell! Truly Carmichael Canadian Daytime number: 519-843-2117 If no answer at above: 519 787
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jan 11, 2008
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                            Samia said:

                            >I have formal training in constructing hat frames, the daunting part is
                            getting the shape right.


                            Indeed :)

                            Where did you train? Tell, tell!



                            Truly Carmichael


                            Canadian Daytime number: 519-843-2117
                            If no answer at above: 519 787 2399


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