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Re: [SCA-Milliners] Polish headdress

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  • wheezul@canby.com
    ... Our emails crossed, so now I see you are early 16th century. The veiling over the face is also common in the Germanic lands, especially if the sitter is
    Message 1 of 17 , Sep 26, 2007
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      > Yes Mistress. A drawing of this headdress is in I believe 2 of the
      > Polish clothing books that I have. I have a photo of a period
      > painting showing a mother and daughters in something similar but the
      > strap under the chin comes up over the mouth. The figures are so
      > small you lose the detail.

      Our emails crossed, so now I see you are early 16th century. The veiling
      over the face is also common in the Germanic lands, especially if the
      sitter is intended to be shown in church or performing some devotion.
      >
      > Would something like this be starched to hold it's shape and if so
      > what was used as starch in period?

      There has been quite a bit of research done on the German headdresses.
      While I don't know what starch was used, one German woman left behind in
      her will/inventory a box with starch and special sponges for the upkeep of
      the fancy linen over veils.

      The extant cap I shared in the last email is of gold thread, so the cap
      itself probably has some degree of stiffness. The back part is padded or
      a felted shape, covered with the decorative work. Grimm's Worterbuch
      (Dictionary) leaves us with a lovely quote that says that girls in
      mid-16th century Germany would walk though the town making the cap padding
      by pulling together cotton (yes, cotton).

      Now that I think about it, padded rolls, and caps with round halo type
      padding on the back are seen in somewhat various form throughout Europe.

      >
      > One of the biggest drawbacks in having a Polish persona is that there
      > aren't alot of, shall we say, reliable resources. Alot are from
      > Victorian age artists. but I have also found the Polish Victorian
      > artists to be fairly accurate when I have finally come across
      > documentation. Without more documentation I would never enter this in
      > an A&S competition for instance but I would like to use as part of my
      > usual garb. Plus the lack of documentation is an excellent opening
      > and opportunity for me to explain and talk more about Poland.

      Magdalena, have you signed on to the SIG yahoo group (Slavic Interest
      Group)? I know Countess Illaria and Earl Edward of An Tir just came back
      from an extensive trip through Poland. Earl Edward has a late 16th
      century persona and he can't stop talking about all of the cool things
      they saw (and photographed!) there. Further, there are folks there, I
      think, that can also read Polish. I haven't been there too long, so I
      didn't recognize your name, but that could just be me :)

      It seems like there is a lot of stuff heading out of Eastern Europe these
      days. I would think it would be beneficial to gather the names of Polish
      museums, see if they have websites, and see if they have published new
      exhibition catalogs. Maybe then you might be able to start to identify
      the redrawings with the real artwork, if it survived World War II. (It
      probably did.)

      Katherine

      > YIS
      > Magdalena
      >
      > PS I was off by a 100 years. My persona is early 1500's or 16th C
      > (it's late)
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • panimagdalena56
      ... album for anyone who would like to take a look. ... Interest Group)? Yes. I have been a member for a few years. I am focusing on women s clothing. There is
      Message 2 of 17 , Sep 27, 2007
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        >I have posted a few pictures I found in my books. It's in my photo
        album for anyone who would like to take a look.

        > Magdalena, have you signed on to the SIG yahoo group (Slavic
        Interest Group)?
        Yes. I have been a member for a few years. I am focusing on women's
        clothing. There is a good focus on men's and the Hussar clothing but
        little on women's. I've done letnik (a Polish dress) instructions
        too.

        I read a bit of Polish myself with the help of a dictionary and my
        friend Aleksandra. I translate first and she helps over the idioms
        etc.
        >
        > It seems like there is a lot of stuff heading out of Eastern Europe
        these
        > days.

        You make a very valid point. More and more info is coming out
        everyday but I want it NOW! ;-)

        I have contacted a couple museums and have actually gotten responses.
        I thought this resembled German headdresses I've seen and hoped I
        might find some German information on this list.

        Thank you all for your info! This is so exciting to me! Will anyone
        be at East Kingdom Coronation this weekend?

        YIS
        Magdalena
      • Cynthia Virtue
        ... How wonderful this cap still exists! It does look like the sort in the engraving. cv
        Message 3 of 17 , Sep 27, 2007
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          wheezul@... wrote:
          > Hi Magdalena,
          >
          > It looks similar to this 16th century headdress of Anna Jagellon, now
          > housed in Prague. I'd also guess that the artwork you are showing is or
          > is taken from a 16th century model because of the heavy chain. This
          > reached its peak of popularity between 1520 and 1530, Here's a picture
          > of the cap:
          >
          > http://www.blen.net/fotos/g000007.jpg
          >

          How wonderful this cap still exists! It does look like the sort in the
          engraving.

          cv
        • Leah Lloyd
          Pani, have you poked around on the German Ren list? They re nothing if not informative *phew* and I agree that this looks awfully German in construction,
          Message 4 of 17 , Sep 27, 2007
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            Pani, have you poked around on the German Ren list? They're nothing if not informative *phew* and I agree that this looks awfully German in construction, they'd likely be able to give you good direction.

            See you Saturday!
            ;)

            Danabren



            I have contacted a couple museums and have actually gotten responses.
            I thought this resembled German headdresses I've seen and hoped I
            might find some German information on this list.

            Thank you all for your info! This is so exciting to me! Will anyone
            be at East Kingdom Coronation this weekend?

            YIS
            Magdalena



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          • panimagdalena56
            Thank you all. I will check out the German Ren group. I haven t had good luck finding groups with searches so direction is wonderful. And the pictures I found
            Message 5 of 17 , Sep 28, 2007
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              Thank you all. I will check out the German Ren group. I haven't had
              good luck finding groups with searches so direction is wonderful. And
              the pictures I found are from the western areas (Silesia for one)of
              Poland where the Gereman influence would be strong.

              I'm looking forward to Saturday but I look forward to all events. A
              friend GAVE me a 50's style fur coat that will be made into some outer
              garment. The one sleeve will be perfect for another colpak with a
              REALLY wide fur brim.

              MG
            • panimagdalena56
              http://www.kostym.cz/Anglicky/2_Detaily/04_Malby/II_04_25.htm Please take a look at the first item which should be the shoemaker s shop. Do you think this the
              Message 6 of 17 , Sep 28, 2007
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                http://www.kostym.cz/Anglicky/2_Detaily/04_Malby/II_04_25.htm

                Please take a look at the first item which should be the shoemaker's
                shop. Do you think this the same headdress as the brown cap only done
                in linen?

                Magdalena
              • Leah Lloyd
                It looks more like an Italian Balzo to me, but that may just be my monitor being blurry. Danabren panimagdalena56 wrote:
                Message 7 of 17 , Sep 28, 2007
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                  It looks more like an Italian Balzo to me, but that may just be my monitor being blurry.

                  Danabren

                  panimagdalena56 <panimagdalena56@...> wrote:
                  http://www.kostym.cz/Anglicky/2_Detaily/04_Malby/II_04_25.htm

                  Please take a look at the first item which should be the shoemaker's
                  shop. Do you think this the same headdress as the brown cap only done
                  in linen?

                  Magdalena



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                • Cynthia Virtue
                  ... Yes, balzo to me, too. The sort made with canes, like this one -- I think -- but which is not coming up for me now:
                  Message 8 of 17 , Sep 28, 2007
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                    Leah Lloyd wrote:
                    > It looks more like an Italian Balzo to me, but that may just be my monitor being blurry.
                    >

                    Yes, balzo to me, too. The sort made with canes, like this one -- I
                    think -- but which is not coming up for me now:
                    http://home.earthlink.net/~lizjones429/balzo-new.htm

                    The site says it has exceeded its traffic limit for this month, so go
                    look for it on Monday.

                    --

                    Vandeverre's Emporium, Caledon II: for a subset of your Victorian Second
                    Life needs!
                  • wheezul@canby.com
                    Again this is very German in nature. This whole headdress is called a steuchlein in German. Myra talks about hers here: http://myra.hem.nu/costume/index.htm
                    Message 9 of 17 , Sep 28, 2007
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                      Again this is very German in nature. This whole headdress is called a
                      "steuchlein" in German.

                      Myra talks about hers here:

                      http://myra.hem.nu/costume/index.htm

                      Marion McNealy talks about her adventures with this here:

                      http://www.curiousfrau.com/

                      I don't know about anyone else, but I always like to call these "scallion
                      heads" because they look like the end of a green onion to me. The
                      steuchlein changes shape through the late 15th to the end of the 16th
                      century, and was clearly the conservative headdress of honorable married
                      women for church and street wear.

                      There's no denying that the big scallion shaped caps of the late 15th
                      century and early 16th century bare a close resemblance in shape to the
                      balzo. I would think that a wooden structure would grow tiresome to wear
                      on a daily basis so wonder at the feasibility of a felt understructure for
                      this large arrangement. Other configurations could easily have been
                      achieved by the false braid arrangements, or even fat silk covered braids
                      used as a headdress.

                      Katherine

                      > http://www.kostym.cz/Anglicky/2_Detaily/04_Malby/II_04_25.htm
                      >
                      > Please take a look at the first item which should be the shoemaker's
                      > shop. Do you think this the same headdress as the brown cap only done
                      > in linen?
                      >
                      > Magdalena
                      >
                      >
                    • Leah Lloyd
                      Mistress Damiana s site seems to be down, but this link http://www.sword.net/jessica/firenze/Early15thCenturyBalzo.pdf references it. She uses withies, a
                      Message 10 of 17 , Sep 28, 2007
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                        Mistress Damiana's site seems to be down, but this link http://www.sword.net/jessica/firenze/Early15thCenturyBalzo.pdf references it. She uses withies, a basket frame, to create the form. A Google search on "Balzo" also turns up a few other sites of dress diaries and construction.

                        So interesting!
                        Danabren

                        wheezul@... wrote:
                        Again this is very German in nature. This whole headdress is called a
                        "steuchlein" in German.

                        Myra talks about hers here:

                        http://myra.hem.nu/costume/index.htm

                        Marion McNealy talks about her adventures with this here:

                        http://www.curiousfrau.com/

                        I don't know about anyone else, but I always like to call these "scallion
                        heads" because they look like the end of a green onion to me. The
                        steuchlein changes shape through the late 15th to the end of the 16th
                        century, and was clearly the conservative headdress of honorable married
                        women for church and street wear.

                        There's no denying that the big scallion shaped caps of the late 15th
                        century and early 16th century bare a close resemblance in shape to the
                        balzo. I would think that a wooden structure would grow tiresome to wear
                        on a daily basis so wonder at the feasibility of a felt understructure for
                        this large arrangement. Other configurations could easily have been
                        achieved by the false braid arrangements, or even fat silk covered braids
                        used as a headdress.

                        Katherine

                        > http://www.kostym.cz/Anglicky/2_Detaily/04_Malby/II_04_25.htm
                        >
                        > Please take a look at the first item which should be the shoemaker's
                        > shop. Do you think this the same headdress as the brown cap only done
                        > in linen?
                        >
                        > Magdalena
                        >
                        >






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                      • panimagdalena56
                        It could be Italian since Bona Sforza, a minor Italian noble, became queen of Poland in 1518. But I m leaning more towards the German especially with the band
                        Message 11 of 17 , Sep 28, 2007
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                          It could be Italian since Bona Sforza, a minor Italian noble, became
                          queen of Poland in 1518.

                          But I'm leaning more towards the German especially with the band that
                          goes under the chin.

                          Or a hybrid of both;-)

                          A lot to think about. Thank you all.

                          Magdalena
                        • Peaches, Magda, Anora
                          Hello! My name Is Magdalena Lucia Ramberti I hail from the outlands and I am insane about hats and hair!! I really think they are the finishing touch to every
                          Message 12 of 17 , Oct 29, 2009
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                            Hello! My name Is Magdalena Lucia Ramberti I hail from the outlands and I am insane about hats and hair!! I really think they are the finishing touch to every outfit. I look forward to reading the archives and learning all I can

                            Magda
                          • Yvianne
                            Welcome Magdalena Please feel free to ask questions or share your knowledge and experiences with the rest of us. Yvianne AEthelmearc ... From: Peaches, Magda,
                            Message 13 of 17 , Oct 30, 2009
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                              Welcome Magdalena

                              Please feel free to ask questions or share your knowledge and
                              experiences with the rest of us.

                              Yvianne
                              AEthelmearc


                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Peaches, Magda, Anora" <anorathepain@...>
                              To: <SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 7:38 PM
                              Subject: [SCA-Milliners] New member


                              > Hello! My name Is Magdalena Lucia Ramberti I hail from the
                              > outlands and I am insane about hats and hair!! I really think
                              > they are the finishing touch to every outfit. I look forward to
                              > reading the archives and learning all I can
                              >
                              > Magda
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