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  • panimagdalena56
    Dzien dobre. I am Pani Magdalena Gdanska. In the SCA I am an early 15th C minor noblewoman. I have set up a photo album and would like input on the first photo
    Message 1 of 17 , Sep 26, 2007
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      Dzien dobre. I am Pani Magdalena Gdanska. In the SCA I am an early 15th
      C minor noblewoman.

      I have set up a photo album and would like input on the first photo of
      what is called a bramka. From the descriptions, this is made of linen
      and is embroidered with pearls. I am looking for help and input,
      direction, web pages to reconstruct this headdress.

      Has anyone seen anything similar that they can point me to? Before you
      ask, I have never seen a pattern or instructions for constructing this
      hat so I will be working from square one.

      do widzenia.
      Magdalena
    • Cynthia Virtue
      ... Hi and Welcome! ... My first reaction when looking at this is that the image is a Victorian re-drawing of something. If so, it will be more difficult to
      Message 2 of 17 , Sep 26, 2007
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        panimagdalena56 wrote:
        > Dzien dobre. I am Pani Magdalena Gdanska. In the SCA I am an early 15th
        > C minor noblewoman.
        >

        Hi and Welcome!
        > I have set up a photo album and would like input on the first photo of
        > what is called a bramka. From the descriptions, this is made of linen
        > and is embroidered with pearls. I am looking for help and input,
        > direction, web pages to reconstruct this headdress.

        My first reaction when looking at this is that the image is a Victorian
        re-drawing of something. If so, it will be more difficult to hunt down.

        The reason I think it might be a redrawing is that the face is very
        Victorian-aesthetic looking. The second is that it's an engraving, as
        might be used for a book or an inexpensive card/calendar/something.

        That said, it looks like the underpart of a Tudor French hood, with a
        stuffed roll on top of it (100 years earlier) and a draped veil. I
        don't recall having seen something like this before, but that doesn't
        mean it didn't happen. Have you seen other images of a similar headdress?

        cv

        --
        Vandeverre's Emporium, Caledon II: for a subset of your Victorian Second
        Life needs!
      • panimagdalena56
        Yes Mistress. A drawing of this headdress is in I believe 2 of the Polish clothing books that I have. I have a photo of a period painting showing a mother and
        Message 3 of 17 , Sep 26, 2007
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          Yes Mistress. A drawing of this headdress is in I believe 2 of the
          Polish clothing books that I have. I have a photo of a period
          painting showing a mother and daughters in something similar but the
          strap under the chin comes up over the mouth. The figures are so
          small you lose the detail.

          Would something like this be starched to hold it's shape and if so
          what was used as starch in period?

          One of the biggest drawbacks in having a Polish persona is that there
          aren't alot of, shall we say, reliable resources. Alot are from
          Victorian age artists. but I have also found the Polish Victorian
          artists to be fairly accurate when I have finally come across
          documentation. Without more documentation I would never enter this in
          an A&S competition for instance but I would like to use as part of my
          usual garb. Plus the lack of documentation is an excellent opening
          and opportunity for me to explain and talk more about Poland.

          YIS
          Magdalena

          PS I was off by a 100 years. My persona is early 1500's or 16th C
          (it's late)
        • wheezul@canby.com
          ... Hi Magdalena, It looks similar to this 16th century headdress of Anna Jagellon, now housed in Prague. I d also guess that the artwork you are showing is
          Message 4 of 17 , Sep 26, 2007
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            > Dzien dobre. I am Pani Magdalena Gdanska. In the SCA I am an early 15th
            > C minor noblewoman.
            >
            > I have set up a photo album and would like input on the first photo of
            > what is called a bramka. From the descriptions, this is made of linen
            > and is embroidered with pearls. I am looking for help and input,
            > direction, web pages to reconstruct this headdress.
            >
            > Has anyone seen anything similar that they can point me to? Before you
            > ask, I have never seen a pattern or instructions for constructing this
            > hat so I will be working from square one.
            >
            > do widzenia.
            > Magdalena

            Hi Magdalena,

            It looks similar to this 16th century headdress of Anna Jagellon, now
            housed in Prague. I'd also guess that the artwork you are showing is or
            is taken from a 16th century model because of the heavy chain. This
            reached its peak of popularity between 1520 and 1530, Here's a picture
            of the cap:

            http://www.blen.net/fotos/g000007.jpg

            So far I have seen this style jewelled cap worn mostly by Hapsburg
            princesses in the early 16th century. Anna was the Queen of Hungary but
            married the Hapsburg emperor. It is of the same general shape as some of
            the Germanic everyday headdress, but it is covered by linen veils so it is
            hard to tell what exactly is underneath in the artwork.

            We have had several people on the German Ren list try to get more
            information, and one visitor sketched some details of it, but to my
            understanding, no one has actually come across any reconstruction notes
            about it.

            It would be fascinating to find out if the cap came from the East to the
            Hapsburgs, or went to the East with the marriages and became a part of the
            costume of the Poles.

            Katherine
          • wheezul@canby.com
            ... Our emails crossed, so now I see you are early 16th century. The veiling over the face is also common in the Germanic lands, especially if the sitter is
            Message 5 of 17 , Sep 26, 2007
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              > Yes Mistress. A drawing of this headdress is in I believe 2 of the
              > Polish clothing books that I have. I have a photo of a period
              > painting showing a mother and daughters in something similar but the
              > strap under the chin comes up over the mouth. The figures are so
              > small you lose the detail.

              Our emails crossed, so now I see you are early 16th century. The veiling
              over the face is also common in the Germanic lands, especially if the
              sitter is intended to be shown in church or performing some devotion.
              >
              > Would something like this be starched to hold it's shape and if so
              > what was used as starch in period?

              There has been quite a bit of research done on the German headdresses.
              While I don't know what starch was used, one German woman left behind in
              her will/inventory a box with starch and special sponges for the upkeep of
              the fancy linen over veils.

              The extant cap I shared in the last email is of gold thread, so the cap
              itself probably has some degree of stiffness. The back part is padded or
              a felted shape, covered with the decorative work. Grimm's Worterbuch
              (Dictionary) leaves us with a lovely quote that says that girls in
              mid-16th century Germany would walk though the town making the cap padding
              by pulling together cotton (yes, cotton).

              Now that I think about it, padded rolls, and caps with round halo type
              padding on the back are seen in somewhat various form throughout Europe.

              >
              > One of the biggest drawbacks in having a Polish persona is that there
              > aren't alot of, shall we say, reliable resources. Alot are from
              > Victorian age artists. but I have also found the Polish Victorian
              > artists to be fairly accurate when I have finally come across
              > documentation. Without more documentation I would never enter this in
              > an A&S competition for instance but I would like to use as part of my
              > usual garb. Plus the lack of documentation is an excellent opening
              > and opportunity for me to explain and talk more about Poland.

              Magdalena, have you signed on to the SIG yahoo group (Slavic Interest
              Group)? I know Countess Illaria and Earl Edward of An Tir just came back
              from an extensive trip through Poland. Earl Edward has a late 16th
              century persona and he can't stop talking about all of the cool things
              they saw (and photographed!) there. Further, there are folks there, I
              think, that can also read Polish. I haven't been there too long, so I
              didn't recognize your name, but that could just be me :)

              It seems like there is a lot of stuff heading out of Eastern Europe these
              days. I would think it would be beneficial to gather the names of Polish
              museums, see if they have websites, and see if they have published new
              exhibition catalogs. Maybe then you might be able to start to identify
              the redrawings with the real artwork, if it survived World War II. (It
              probably did.)

              Katherine

              > YIS
              > Magdalena
              >
              > PS I was off by a 100 years. My persona is early 1500's or 16th C
              > (it's late)
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • panimagdalena56
              ... album for anyone who would like to take a look. ... Interest Group)? Yes. I have been a member for a few years. I am focusing on women s clothing. There is
              Message 6 of 17 , Sep 27, 2007
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                >I have posted a few pictures I found in my books. It's in my photo
                album for anyone who would like to take a look.

                > Magdalena, have you signed on to the SIG yahoo group (Slavic
                Interest Group)?
                Yes. I have been a member for a few years. I am focusing on women's
                clothing. There is a good focus on men's and the Hussar clothing but
                little on women's. I've done letnik (a Polish dress) instructions
                too.

                I read a bit of Polish myself with the help of a dictionary and my
                friend Aleksandra. I translate first and she helps over the idioms
                etc.
                >
                > It seems like there is a lot of stuff heading out of Eastern Europe
                these
                > days.

                You make a very valid point. More and more info is coming out
                everyday but I want it NOW! ;-)

                I have contacted a couple museums and have actually gotten responses.
                I thought this resembled German headdresses I've seen and hoped I
                might find some German information on this list.

                Thank you all for your info! This is so exciting to me! Will anyone
                be at East Kingdom Coronation this weekend?

                YIS
                Magdalena
              • Cynthia Virtue
                ... How wonderful this cap still exists! It does look like the sort in the engraving. cv
                Message 7 of 17 , Sep 27, 2007
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                  wheezul@... wrote:
                  > Hi Magdalena,
                  >
                  > It looks similar to this 16th century headdress of Anna Jagellon, now
                  > housed in Prague. I'd also guess that the artwork you are showing is or
                  > is taken from a 16th century model because of the heavy chain. This
                  > reached its peak of popularity between 1520 and 1530, Here's a picture
                  > of the cap:
                  >
                  > http://www.blen.net/fotos/g000007.jpg
                  >

                  How wonderful this cap still exists! It does look like the sort in the
                  engraving.

                  cv
                • Leah Lloyd
                  Pani, have you poked around on the German Ren list? They re nothing if not informative *phew* and I agree that this looks awfully German in construction,
                  Message 8 of 17 , Sep 27, 2007
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                    Pani, have you poked around on the German Ren list? They're nothing if not informative *phew* and I agree that this looks awfully German in construction, they'd likely be able to give you good direction.

                    See you Saturday!
                    ;)

                    Danabren



                    I have contacted a couple museums and have actually gotten responses.
                    I thought this resembled German headdresses I've seen and hoped I
                    might find some German information on this list.

                    Thank you all for your info! This is so exciting to me! Will anyone
                    be at East Kingdom Coronation this weekend?

                    YIS
                    Magdalena



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                  • panimagdalena56
                    Thank you all. I will check out the German Ren group. I haven t had good luck finding groups with searches so direction is wonderful. And the pictures I found
                    Message 9 of 17 , Sep 28, 2007
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                      Thank you all. I will check out the German Ren group. I haven't had
                      good luck finding groups with searches so direction is wonderful. And
                      the pictures I found are from the western areas (Silesia for one)of
                      Poland where the Gereman influence would be strong.

                      I'm looking forward to Saturday but I look forward to all events. A
                      friend GAVE me a 50's style fur coat that will be made into some outer
                      garment. The one sleeve will be perfect for another colpak with a
                      REALLY wide fur brim.

                      MG
                    • panimagdalena56
                      http://www.kostym.cz/Anglicky/2_Detaily/04_Malby/II_04_25.htm Please take a look at the first item which should be the shoemaker s shop. Do you think this the
                      Message 10 of 17 , Sep 28, 2007
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                        http://www.kostym.cz/Anglicky/2_Detaily/04_Malby/II_04_25.htm

                        Please take a look at the first item which should be the shoemaker's
                        shop. Do you think this the same headdress as the brown cap only done
                        in linen?

                        Magdalena
                      • Leah Lloyd
                        It looks more like an Italian Balzo to me, but that may just be my monitor being blurry. Danabren panimagdalena56 wrote:
                        Message 11 of 17 , Sep 28, 2007
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                          It looks more like an Italian Balzo to me, but that may just be my monitor being blurry.

                          Danabren

                          panimagdalena56 <panimagdalena56@...> wrote:
                          http://www.kostym.cz/Anglicky/2_Detaily/04_Malby/II_04_25.htm

                          Please take a look at the first item which should be the shoemaker's
                          shop. Do you think this the same headdress as the brown cap only done
                          in linen?

                          Magdalena



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                        • Cynthia Virtue
                          ... Yes, balzo to me, too. The sort made with canes, like this one -- I think -- but which is not coming up for me now:
                          Message 12 of 17 , Sep 28, 2007
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                            Leah Lloyd wrote:
                            > It looks more like an Italian Balzo to me, but that may just be my monitor being blurry.
                            >

                            Yes, balzo to me, too. The sort made with canes, like this one -- I
                            think -- but which is not coming up for me now:
                            http://home.earthlink.net/~lizjones429/balzo-new.htm

                            The site says it has exceeded its traffic limit for this month, so go
                            look for it on Monday.

                            --

                            Vandeverre's Emporium, Caledon II: for a subset of your Victorian Second
                            Life needs!
                          • wheezul@canby.com
                            Again this is very German in nature. This whole headdress is called a steuchlein in German. Myra talks about hers here: http://myra.hem.nu/costume/index.htm
                            Message 13 of 17 , Sep 28, 2007
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                              Again this is very German in nature. This whole headdress is called a
                              "steuchlein" in German.

                              Myra talks about hers here:

                              http://myra.hem.nu/costume/index.htm

                              Marion McNealy talks about her adventures with this here:

                              http://www.curiousfrau.com/

                              I don't know about anyone else, but I always like to call these "scallion
                              heads" because they look like the end of a green onion to me. The
                              steuchlein changes shape through the late 15th to the end of the 16th
                              century, and was clearly the conservative headdress of honorable married
                              women for church and street wear.

                              There's no denying that the big scallion shaped caps of the late 15th
                              century and early 16th century bare a close resemblance in shape to the
                              balzo. I would think that a wooden structure would grow tiresome to wear
                              on a daily basis so wonder at the feasibility of a felt understructure for
                              this large arrangement. Other configurations could easily have been
                              achieved by the false braid arrangements, or even fat silk covered braids
                              used as a headdress.

                              Katherine

                              > http://www.kostym.cz/Anglicky/2_Detaily/04_Malby/II_04_25.htm
                              >
                              > Please take a look at the first item which should be the shoemaker's
                              > shop. Do you think this the same headdress as the brown cap only done
                              > in linen?
                              >
                              > Magdalena
                              >
                              >
                            • Leah Lloyd
                              Mistress Damiana s site seems to be down, but this link http://www.sword.net/jessica/firenze/Early15thCenturyBalzo.pdf references it. She uses withies, a
                              Message 14 of 17 , Sep 28, 2007
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                                Mistress Damiana's site seems to be down, but this link http://www.sword.net/jessica/firenze/Early15thCenturyBalzo.pdf references it. She uses withies, a basket frame, to create the form. A Google search on "Balzo" also turns up a few other sites of dress diaries and construction.

                                So interesting!
                                Danabren

                                wheezul@... wrote:
                                Again this is very German in nature. This whole headdress is called a
                                "steuchlein" in German.

                                Myra talks about hers here:

                                http://myra.hem.nu/costume/index.htm

                                Marion McNealy talks about her adventures with this here:

                                http://www.curiousfrau.com/

                                I don't know about anyone else, but I always like to call these "scallion
                                heads" because they look like the end of a green onion to me. The
                                steuchlein changes shape through the late 15th to the end of the 16th
                                century, and was clearly the conservative headdress of honorable married
                                women for church and street wear.

                                There's no denying that the big scallion shaped caps of the late 15th
                                century and early 16th century bare a close resemblance in shape to the
                                balzo. I would think that a wooden structure would grow tiresome to wear
                                on a daily basis so wonder at the feasibility of a felt understructure for
                                this large arrangement. Other configurations could easily have been
                                achieved by the false braid arrangements, or even fat silk covered braids
                                used as a headdress.

                                Katherine

                                > http://www.kostym.cz/Anglicky/2_Detaily/04_Malby/II_04_25.htm
                                >
                                > Please take a look at the first item which should be the shoemaker's
                                > shop. Do you think this the same headdress as the brown cap only done
                                > in linen?
                                >
                                > Magdalena
                                >
                                >






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                              • panimagdalena56
                                It could be Italian since Bona Sforza, a minor Italian noble, became queen of Poland in 1518. But I m leaning more towards the German especially with the band
                                Message 15 of 17 , Sep 28, 2007
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                                  It could be Italian since Bona Sforza, a minor Italian noble, became
                                  queen of Poland in 1518.

                                  But I'm leaning more towards the German especially with the band that
                                  goes under the chin.

                                  Or a hybrid of both;-)

                                  A lot to think about. Thank you all.

                                  Magdalena
                                • Peaches, Magda, Anora
                                  Hello! My name Is Magdalena Lucia Ramberti I hail from the outlands and I am insane about hats and hair!! I really think they are the finishing touch to every
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Oct 29, 2009
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                                    Hello! My name Is Magdalena Lucia Ramberti I hail from the outlands and I am insane about hats and hair!! I really think they are the finishing touch to every outfit. I look forward to reading the archives and learning all I can

                                    Magda
                                  • Yvianne
                                    Welcome Magdalena Please feel free to ask questions or share your knowledge and experiences with the rest of us. Yvianne AEthelmearc ... From: Peaches, Magda,
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Oct 30, 2009
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                                      Welcome Magdalena

                                      Please feel free to ask questions or share your knowledge and
                                      experiences with the rest of us.

                                      Yvianne
                                      AEthelmearc


                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: "Peaches, Magda, Anora" <anorathepain@...>
                                      To: <SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 7:38 PM
                                      Subject: [SCA-Milliners] New member


                                      > Hello! My name Is Magdalena Lucia Ramberti I hail from the
                                      > outlands and I am insane about hats and hair!! I really think
                                      > they are the finishing touch to every outfit. I look forward to
                                      > reading the archives and learning all I can
                                      >
                                      > Magda
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