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a question on circlets

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  • fionnghualaingheanuilliam
    I don t know if this is really a millinery question but I m trying to find out if a circlet would have been worn by a 16th century Scots noble woman. I ve
    Message 1 of 14 , Dec 13, 2006
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      I don't know if this is really a millinery question but I'm trying to
      find out if a circlet would have been worn by a 16th century Scots
      noble woman. I've tried looking at the web gallery of art, but there
      aren't many portraits of Scots or Irish noble women to check.
      Thank you for your time,

      Sandy Jones
    • Kimiko Small
      ... Hello Sandy, From the images I ve seen over the years, most of the Scots nobles (lowland/court) dressed similar to English or French fashions, including in
      Message 2 of 14 , Dec 14, 2006
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        At 10:57 PM 12/13/2006, you wrote:
        >I don't know if this is really a millinery question but I'm trying to
        >find out if a circlet would have been worn by a 16th century Scots
        >noble woman. I've tried looking at the web gallery of art, but there
        >aren't many portraits of Scots or Irish noble women to check.
        >Thank you for your time,
        >
        >Sandy Jones


        Hello Sandy,

        From the images I've seen over the years, most of the Scots nobles
        (lowland/court) dressed similar to English or French fashions, including in
        headwear. There are images of Marie of Guise (Mary Stuart's mother), Mary
        Stuart, Margaret Tudor, and a few more ladies whose names escape me right
        now (and I don't know where my Scots books are right now). I don't recall
        seeing a circlet on any of them.

        If you are speaking of Highland Scots nobility not associated with noble
        court, I have yet to find any contemporary images of any highland women to
        the 16th century, noble or otherwise. I vaguely remember one stone engraved
        image from the Isle of Skye, regarding the MacLeods, but I don't have it
        anymore (this was from some decade or more ago research).

        If you are looking for the Celtic connection with Ireland, here's an image
        (very large) of the MacSweeny chief, including his wife (you only see her
        head very well, as she's wearing a fuzzy mantle whose proper name escapes
        me right now.
        http://www.lib.ed.ac.uk/about/bgallery/Gallery/researchcoll/pages/bg0055_jpg.htm

        Other sites of interest
        http://medievalscotland.org/
        (more updated info than I originally found)
        http://www.reconstructinghistory.com
        Specifically
        http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/scottish/arisaid.html
        http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/irish/headdress.html

        There really is little to go on, and it really depends on what part of
        Scotland your character would be from, or station in life. I honestly don't
        recall seeing any ladies wearing circlets, but there are very few images to
        base this on. I hope the above helps you, and good luck!


        Joane Silvertoppe
        B. Nordwache, K. Caid
        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        mka Kimiko Small, Fresno, CA, USA
        A Gentlewoman's Warderobe Accounts
        http://www.kimiko1.com/warderobe.html
      • unclrashid
        off topic for this group, but did you notice how short the kilts are in this pic? It took me a minute to realize they were kilts and not a funny basqe on the
        Message 3 of 14 , Dec 14, 2006
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          off topic for this group, but did you notice how short the kilts are
          in this pic? It took me a minute to realize they were kilts and not
          a funny basqe on the doublet!

          Rashid


          --- In SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com, Kimiko Small <kimiko@...> wrote:
          >
          > If you are looking for the Celtic connection with Ireland, here's
          an image
          > (very large) of the MacSweeny chief, including his wife (you only
          see her
          > head very well, as she's wearing a fuzzy mantle whose proper name
          escapes
          > me right now.
          >
          http://www.lib.ed.ac.uk/about/bgallery/Gallery/researchcoll/pages/bg00
          55_jpg.htm
          >
        • danabren@verizon.net
          ... Did you notice the boys warming their tushies at the fire? Danabren East ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ Germaphobes need love
          Message 4 of 14 , Dec 14, 2006
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            >off topic for this group, but did you notice how short the kilts are
            >in this pic? It took me a minute to realize they were kilts and not
            >a funny basqe on the doublet!
            >
            >Rashid

            Did you notice the boys warming their tushies at the fire?

            Danabren
            East

            ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^
            Germaphobes need love too - just wash your hands first.
          • Kirsten Garner
            Greetings... Out of curiosity, could the person sat beside the chief be wearing one of those bizarre Irish cheese hats? Julian
            Message 5 of 14 , Dec 14, 2006
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              Greetings...

              Out of curiosity, could the person sat beside the
              chief be wearing one of those bizarre Irish "cheese"
              hats?

              Julian

              --- danabren@... wrote:

              >
              > >off topic for this group, but did you notice how
              > short the kilts are
              > >in this pic? It took me a minute to realize they
              > were kilts and not
              > >a funny basqe on the doublet!
              > >
              > >Rashid
              >
              > Did you notice the boys warming their tushies at the
              > fire?
              >
              > Danabren
              > East
              >
              > ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^
              > ^v^ ^v^
              > Germaphobes need love too - just wash your hands
              > first.
              >
            • unclrashid
              I thought they were mooning somebody!
              Message 6 of 14 , Dec 14, 2006
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                I thought they were mooning somebody!

                --- In SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com, <danabren@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > >off topic for this group, but did you notice how short the kilts are
                > >in this pic? It took me a minute to realize they were kilts and not
                > >a funny basqe on the doublet!
                > >
                > >Rashid
                >
                > Did you notice the boys warming their tushies at the fire?
                >
                > Danabren
                > East
                >
                > ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^
                > Germaphobes need love too - just wash your hands first.
                >
              • unclrashid
                I thought it looked like the fram oil-filter hat. WHich may be another name for cheese hat . Rashid
                Message 7 of 14 , Dec 14, 2006
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                  I thought it looked like the "fram oil-filter" hat. WHich may be
                  another name for "cheese hat".

                  Rashid

                  --- In SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com, Kirsten Garner <kngarner@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Greetings...
                  >
                  > Out of curiosity, could the person sat beside the
                  > chief be wearing one of those bizarre Irish "cheese"
                  > hats?
                  >
                  > Julian
                  >
                  > --- danabren@... wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  > > >off topic for this group, but did you notice how
                  > > short the kilts are
                  > > >in this pic? It took me a minute to realize they
                  > > were kilts and not
                  > > >a funny basqe on the doublet!
                  > > >
                  > > >Rashid
                  > >
                  > > Did you notice the boys warming their tushies at the
                  > > fire?
                  > >
                  > > Danabren
                  > > East
                  > >
                  > > ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^
                  > > ^v^ ^v^
                  > > Germaphobes need love too - just wash your hands
                  > > first.
                  > >
                  >
                • Kimiko Small
                  ... Actually, that s a matter of contention among the scholars, as to this showing kilts or not. It appears so at first glance, but Derrick had a description
                  Message 8 of 14 , Dec 14, 2006
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                    At 06:23 AM 12/14/2006, you wrote:
                    >off topic for this group, but did you notice how short the kilts are
                    >in this pic? It took me a minute to realize they were kilts and not
                    >a funny basqe on the doublet!
                    >
                    >Rashid


                    Actually, that's a matter of contention among the scholars, as to this
                    showing kilts or not. It appears so at first glance, but Derrick had a
                    description of both the jackets and shirts worn

                    He describes wool jackets:
                    "which fancy first did heed
                    His skirts be very short
                    with pleats set thick about"
                    "their shirts be very strange
                    not reaching past the thigh
                    with pleats on pleats they pleated are
                    as thick as pleats may lie
                    whose sleeves hang trailing down
                    almost onto the shoe."
                    ~ Dress in
                    Ireland<http://www.kimiko1.com/dressdiaries/irishbard/#1>1, pg 56

                    I did a recreation for a friend who wanted the bard's outfit shown in the
                    woodcut (he's the one standing next to the harper).
                    http://www.kimiko1.com/dressdiaries/irishbard/index.html
                    I think of them similar to a ruff for the waist (not a period thought).

                    It is not my contention to say for positive one way or another that those
                    are or are not kilts, but from my former research, the evidence against
                    kilts weighs heavy, with only the images, which are in contention as to
                    accuracy, and with the written description above against, as the evidence
                    for kilts.

                    Joane



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Kimiko Small
                    ... Yes, that s one term for those hats. That is the chief s wife, and the only woman in the woodcut. The only other woman I ve found in the woodcuts is on
                    Message 9 of 14 , Dec 14, 2006
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                      At 06:32 AM 12/14/2006, you wrote:
                      >Greetings...
                      >
                      >Out of curiosity, could the person sat beside the
                      >chief be wearing one of those bizarre Irish "cheese"
                      >hats?
                      >
                      >Julian


                      Yes, that's one term for those hats. That is the chief's wife, and the only
                      woman in the woodcut.

                      The only other woman I've found in the woodcuts is on this image, showing a
                      burning of a farm. The farmer's wife is on the far right.
                      http://www.lib.ed.ac.uk/about/bgallery/Gallery/researchcoll/pages/bg0054_jpg.htm


                      Joane Silvertoppe
                      B. Nordwache, K. Caid
                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                      mka Kimiko Small, Fresno, CA, USA
                      A Gentlewoman's Warderobe Accounts
                      http://www.kimiko1.com/warderobe.html
                    • Kimiko Small
                      ... I remembered as I was heading to bed that the following image could be considered a circlet http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/irish/wear.html (halfway
                      Message 10 of 14 , Dec 14, 2006
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                        At 01:38 AM 12/14/2006, you wrote:
                        ><snip>
                        >
                        >There really is little to go on, and it really depends on what part of
                        >Scotland your character would be from, or station in life. I honestly don't
                        >recall seeing any ladies wearing circlets, but there are very few images to
                        >base this on. I hope the above helps you, and good luck!


                        I remembered as I was heading to bed that the following image could be
                        considered a circlet
                        http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/irish/wear.html
                        (halfway down the page, first colored drawing, lady on the right)
                        I just don't know if the woman would be considered a noblewoman or not.

                        And further down is another possible image of those Irish cheesewheel hats.

                        Joane
                      • unclrashid
                        I always tell people that Irish and Scots personas are not good ones for garbaholics, unless you can deal with ambiguity and don t mind a mystery that may not
                        Message 11 of 14 , Dec 14, 2006
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                          I always tell people that Irish and Scots personas are not good ones
                          for garbaholics, unless you can deal with ambiguity and don't mind a
                          mystery that may not be solved in your lifetime.

                          Rashid


                          --- In SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com, Kimiko Small <kimiko@...> wrote:
                          >

                          > It is not my contention to say for positive one way or another that
                          those
                          > are or are not kilts, but from my former research, the evidence
                          against
                          > kilts weighs heavy, with only the images, which are in contention
                          as to
                          > accuracy, and with the written description above against, as the
                          evidence
                          > for kilts.
                          >
                        • Kimiko Small
                          ... Here, here! It s why I gave up doing Scots in pursuit of Tudor garments. Lots more to work from there. Joane
                          Message 12 of 14 , Dec 14, 2006
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                            At 03:29 PM 12/14/2006, you wrote:
                            >I always tell people that Irish and Scots personas are not good ones
                            >for garbaholics, unless you can deal with ambiguity and don't mind a
                            >mystery that may not be solved in your lifetime.
                            >
                            >Rashid


                            Here, here! It's why I gave up doing Scots in pursuit of Tudor garments.
                            Lots more to work from there.

                            Joane
                          • borderlands15213
                            ... in the ... those ... evidence ... Agreed, Joane, that the evidence against kilts at this point in time weighs heavy indeed. (Very nice work on the bard s
                            Message 13 of 14 , Dec 15, 2006
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                              --- In SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com, Kimiko Small <kimiko@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > At 06:23 AM 12/14/2006, you wrote:
                              > >off topic for this group, but did you notice how short the kilts are
                              > >in this pic? It took me a minute to realize they were kilts and not
                              > >a funny basqe on the doublet!
                              > >
                              > >Rashid
                              >
                              >
                              > Actually, that's a matter of contention among the scholars, as to this
                              > showing kilts or not. It appears so at first glance, but Derrick had a
                              > description of both the jackets and shirts worn
                              >
                              > He describes wool jackets:
                              > "which fancy first did heed
                              > His skirts be very short
                              > with pleats set thick about"
                              > "their shirts be very strange
                              > not reaching past the thigh
                              > with pleats on pleats they pleated are
                              > as thick as pleats may lie
                              > whose sleeves hang trailing down
                              > almost onto the shoe."
                              > ~ Dress in
                              > Ireland<http://www.kimiko1.com/dressdiaries/irishbard/#1>1, pg 56
                              >
                              > I did a recreation for a friend who wanted the bard's outfit shown
                              in the
                              > woodcut (he's the one standing next to the harper).
                              > http://www.kimiko1.com/dressdiaries/irishbard/index.html
                              > I think of them similar to a ruff for the waist (not a period thought).
                              >
                              > It is not my contention to say for positive one way or another that
                              those
                              > are or are not kilts, but from my former research, the evidence against
                              > kilts weighs heavy, with only the images, which are in contention as to
                              > accuracy, and with the written description above against, as the
                              evidence
                              > for kilts.
                              >
                              > Joane

                              Agreed, Joane, that the evidence against kilts at this point in time
                              weighs heavy indeed.
                              (Very nice work on the bard's re-creation, by the way.)
                              I'm never at home when I'm at a computer and home is where all my
                              references are, so I'm working from memory, here, but there are a
                              couple of references---possibly Fynes Morrison---to the leinte being
                              "manifestly pleated and daubed with pitch." Now, that reference to
                              pitch does open another cache of old herring, which for the moment I'd
                              just as soon leave alone.
                              I personally doubt those pleats we're seeing in that woodcut (showing
                              the feast/celebration, and the lads warming their backsides) have
                              anything at all to do with *kilts,* other than the word "kilt" meaning
                              pleat or tuck (as in, "...in fabric," in this case.) The brat or
                              mantle gradually became the great kilt, and at about the time this
                              woodcut seems to be we start seeing some very little pictorial
                              evidence of this (and some ambiguous references by the few
                              diarist-minded travelers) but the great kilt is made up of more fabric
                              than would fit neatly under the ionar; this is why I think what's seen
                              here is the lower edges of the leinte (shirt, for the uninitiated.)

                              About the circlet, which is the original inquiry which began this
                              thread.... The link you provided, Joane, brought this to mind.
                              In period or not too long after, there is a reference to Highland
                              ladies wearing a *ribbon,* but not a metal circlet, around the head,
                              in the manner of a circlet. It mentioned that "the ends hang down the
                              sides," but didn't say whether this is two pieces of ribbon tied or
                              knotted just above or in front of the ears with two ends on each side
                              of the head, or one piece of ribbon, with its two ends hanging down
                              just one side of the head.
                              I may be mis-recalling, here, but I *think* I remember this has to do
                              with marital status. Don't bet the farm on that, though. I believe
                              these ribbons could be black or red or dark blue; no other colors for
                              them were mentioned. That might reflect only what was worn in the
                              region or regions where the "journalist" traveled; it might have to do
                              with what was availble either in trade or in dyestuffs; it might have
                              had cultural significance which isn't recorded.
                              Whether this ribbon was supposed to have been decorative, functional,
                              or both wasn't stated, or even, as I recall, speculated upon.

                              As soon as I get back home and have a moment to check, I'll see what I
                              can discover.

                              I also agree that there's going to be a difference between what's worn
                              in the Highlands, and what's worn in the Lowlands, and what's worn at
                              Court, so it's important to know what part of Scotland one desires to
                              interpret.

                              Like you, "I" (persona) started out in Scotland, but has been in
                              England, France, Italy, and will probably hie herself to the German
                              states and to Spain.
                              But eventually it'll be back to Scotland, "screw [my] courage to the
                              sticking place," and do more research for Scottish garb and perhaps be
                              content wearing "best guess" interpolations and interpretations.

                              Oh, and Rashid: kilts as a garment are meant for an outdoor, active
                              life, and even today with wearing the sewn-pleats "little kilt," the
                              correct length is to the top of the kneecap or to the middle of the
                              kneecap, but never any longer: if you're out stalking deer, for
                              instance, you don't want to be hampered by kneeling on your clothing.
                              For many outdoorsmen, and that includes farmers and isnt' limited to
                              sportsment, wearing traditional Highland attire, the kilt may well be
                              worn even shorter, not reaching so far as the top of the kneecap.
                              Those brats/mantles/great kilts in their day would have been worn
                              quite short. Contemporary commentary included astonishment at the
                              rough, rude [rugged] manner of attire and the Highlanders' habit of
                              going about bare-legged and even bare-thighed, for the most part, and
                              through the roughest, coldest, wettest winter weather, and the fact
                              that Highlanders seemed untroubled by their weather-reddened skin or
                              the cold that effected it. Hardy folk!

                              Apologies to the list: kilts aren't millinery!


                              Yseult the Gentle
                            • Dianne & Greg Stucki
                              ... Laurensa
                              Message 14 of 14 , Dec 15, 2006
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                                At 09:29 AM 12/14/2006, you wrote:


                                > >off topic for this group, but did you notice how short the kilts are
                                > >in this pic? It took me a minute to realize they were kilts and not
                                > >a funny basqe on the doublet!
                                > >
                                > >Rashid
                                >
                                >Did you notice the boys warming their tushies at the fire?
                                >
                                >Danabren
                                >East
                                >
                                >Of COURSE!!


                                Laurensa
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