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More on Catalan netted headdress

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  • Cynthia Virtue
    Hi Folks, James is still investigating options about this net thing I forwarded last week. Below is his message of today, and after that, my response. I m
    Message 1 of 3 , Jul 3, 2006
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      Hi Folks,

      James is still investigating options about this net thing I forwarded
      last week. Below is his message of today, and after that, my response.

      I'm going to be going on vacation soon, so if you have suggestions, feel
      free to send them directly to him.

      I should ask on the h-costume list, but I'm 5,000 messages behind on it
      and would feel rather sheepish doing so.

      -------- Original Message --------
      Subject: Is it a snood?
      Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 11:34:25 +0200
      From: James C. Townsend <jamesc.townsend@...>

      Dear Cynthia Virtue:

      Thank you for your answer. Excuse me for not responding sooner

      My Collins English-Spanish dictionary translates 'snood' as 'cintillo'
      or 'redecilla', which comes close to what I think it is: a 'net', or
      'red' in Spanish, but not in Catalan. Wikepedia gives 'snood' as a
      19th-century invention.

      The online Alcover-Moll Catalan dictionary gives the Spanish
      translation as gandaya, red.

      I would be very grateful if you mentioned this in your on-line discussion.

      Briefly, the document I am translating is a 15th-century court case
      (entitled "El Cavaller i l'Alcavota" - The Knight and the Procuress,
      by Jaume Riera i Sans, a Hebrew scholar and archivist) in Barcelona in
      which a Catalan nobleman was caught, along with his procuress, for
      having sex with young girls. He sometimes bought them clothing, and
      clothes turn up in the text. This book was originally published in
      Catalan in 1973, and I am now translating it into English. I will
      acknowledge your help in the translator's forward when the book is
      published jointly by a Spanish-English publishing venture (Editorial
      Barcino-Tamesis).

      Would you mind terribly if I occasionally consulted you about words
      that refer to pieces of clothing?

      One word that pops up is 'cota' or 'cot' for some sort of dress or
      tunic the girls wore at that time. I have tentatively used 'coat', but
      that doesn't sound right. It's interesting to note that no one, except
      the upper classes, wore new clothes. There was a big market for
      second-hand clothing (many people died at the time from the plague, or
      'glànola', which I have translated as 'buboes'), sold by 'pellers',
      which I have translated as 'rag man'. Can you think of a better word?

      Another is 'aljube', which I think is a 'Moorish cloak'. Maybe I
      should leave it the same.

      Any suggestions?

      If you need any more information, please let me know.

      Thank you again

      Regards,

      James

      --
      James C. Townsend
      Carrer Major 80
      17700 - La Jonquera
      Girona, Spain
      +34 972 554-084

      ****************************************************
      And then I wrote:

      Greetings!

      The headwear discussion list I mentioned hasn't turned up any responses
      yet, but as it is summer, some folks might be away.

      > Wikepedia gives 'snood' as a 19th-century invention.


      I believe Wikipedia is incorrect, depending on how narrowly it is
      defining the term "snood." As an example, one could call the shaped
      nets of the 1300s "snoods" see
      http://www.virtue.to/articles/easy_cauls.html for pictures. I know the
      Italian ladies were wearing a 'reticula' which was sort of a long
      hairnet, which started on the top and sides of the head and followed the
      hair down the back, covering a long braid.

      > I would be very grateful if you mentioned this in your on-line
      discussion.


      I will indeed!

      > Would you mind terribly if I occasionally consulted you about words
      > that refer to pieces of clothing?


      I would not mind at all, but I'm cautious because from a costuming
      standpoint, Spain had some very weird developments, and I expect that
      Catalan might be even stranger. It's not an area I know much about.

      > One word that pops up is 'cota' or 'cot' for some sort of dress or
      > tunic the girls wore at that time.


      This one I can help with. "Cote" or "coat" was used across much of
      Europe, and over centuries, to mean the main outer garment. We'd call
      it a dress, although they might have worn a few of these as layers
      depending on the weather. As such, it hasn't any specific cut, anymore
      than the term "dress" would tell you what sort of dress you're talking of.

      > It's interesting to note that no one, except
      > the upper classes, wore new clothes.


      I know that in England and France, sometimes a servant would be given a
      set of clothes yearly as part of his or her pay, but I don't know if it
      were hand-me-downs or not.


      --
      Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent

      "Love is friendship set on fire."
      -- Jeremy Taylor, ca. 1650
    • Noramunro@aol.com
      thinking out loud ... would caul be an acceptable translation, in place of snood ? nora ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Dame Alianora Munro, OL, Atlantia the
      Message 2 of 3 , Jul 3, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        thinking out loud ...

        would 'caul' be an acceptable translation, in place of 'snood'?

        'nora

        ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
        Dame Alianora Munro, OL, Atlantia
        the website: http://hometown.aol.com/noramunro/Chateau/index.htm
        the blog: http://damenora.diaryland.com


        -----Original Message-----
        From: Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue@...>
        To: SCA-Milliners@egroups.com <SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 09:14:59 -0400
        Subject: [SCA-Milliners] More on Catalan netted headdress


        Hi Folks,

        James is still investigating options about this net thing I forwarded
        last week. Below is his message of today, and after that, my response.

        I'm going to be going on vacation soon, so if you have suggestions, feel
        free to send them directly to him.

        I should ask on the h-costume list, but I'm 5,000 messages behind on it
        and would feel rather sheepish doing so.

        -------- Original Message --------
        Subject: Is it a snood?
        Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 11:34:25 +0200
        From: James C. Townsend <jamesc.townsend@...>

        Dear Cynthia Virtue:

        Thank you for your answer. Excuse me for not responding sooner

        My Collins English-Spanish dictionary translates 'snood' as 'cintillo'
        or 'redecilla', which comes close to what I think it is: a 'net', or
        'red' in Spanish, but not in Catalan. Wikepedia gives 'snood' as a
        19th-century invention.

        The online Alcover-Moll Catalan dictionary gives the Spanish
        translation as gandaya, red.

        I would be very grateful if you mentioned this in your on-line discussion.

        Briefly, the document I am translating is a 15th-century court case
        (entitled "El Cavaller i l'Alcavota" - The Knight and the Procuress,
        by Jaume Riera i Sans, a Hebrew scholar and archivist) in Barcelona in
        which a Catalan nobleman was caught, along with his procuress, for
        having sex with young girls. He sometimes bought them clothing, and
        clothes turn up in the text. This book was originally published in
        Catalan in 1973, and I am now translating it into English. I will
        acknowledge your help in the translator's forward when the book is
        published jointly by a Spanish-English publishing venture (Editorial
        Barcino-Tamesis).

        Would you mind terribly if I occasionally consulted you about words
        that refer to pieces of clothing?

        One word that pops up is 'cota' or 'cot' for some sort of dress or
        tunic the girls wore at that time. I have tentatively used 'coat', but
        that doesn't sound right. It's interesting to note that no one, except
        the upper classes, wore new clothes. There was a big market for
        second-hand clothing (many people died at the time from the plague, or
        'glànola', which I have translated as 'buboes'), sold by 'pellers',
        which I have translated as 'rag man'. Can you think of a better word?

        Another is 'aljube', which I think is a 'Moorish cloak'. Maybe I
        should leave it the same.

        Any suggestions?

        If you need any more information, please let me know.

        Thank you again

        Regards,

        James

        --
        James C. Townsend
        Carrer Major 80
        17700 - La Jonquera
        Girona, Spain
        +34 972 554-084

        ****************************************************
        And then I wrote:

        Greetings!

        The headwear discussion list I mentioned hasn't turned up any responses
        yet, but as it is summer, some folks might be away.

        > Wikepedia gives 'snood' as a 19th-century invention.


        I believe Wikipedia is incorrect, depending on how narrowly it is
        defining the term "snood." As an example, one could call the shaped
        nets of the 1300s "snoods" see
        http://www.virtue.to/articles/easy_cauls.html for pictures. I know the
        Italian ladies were wearing a 'reticula' which was sort of a long
        hairnet, which started on the top and sides of the head and followed the
        hair down the back, covering a long braid.

        > I would be very grateful if you mentioned this in your on-line
        discussion.


        I will indeed!

        > Would you mind terribly if I occasionally consulted you about words
        > that refer to pieces of clothing?


        I would not mind at all, but I'm cautious because from a costuming
        standpoint, Spain had some very weird developments, and I expect that
        Catalan might be even stranger. It's not an area I know much about.

        > One word that pops up is 'cota' or 'cot' for some sort of dress or
        > tunic the girls wore at that time.


        This one I can help with. "Cote" or "coat" was used across much of
        Europe, and over centuries, to mean the main outer garment. We'd call
        it a dress, although they might have worn a few of these as layers
        depending on the weather. As such, it hasn't any specific cut, anymore
        than the term "dress" would tell you what sort of dress you're talking of.

        > It's interesting to note that no one, except
        > the upper classes, wore new clothes.


        I know that in England and France, sometimes a servant would be given a
        set of clothes yearly as part of his or her pay, but I don't know if it
        were hand-me-downs or not.


        --
        Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent

        "Love is friendship set on fire."
        -- Jeremy Taylor, ca. 1650


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      • Dawn Malmstrom
        My vote would be to use the term gandalla introduced with a description. I am not all that fond of the term snood and am all for introducing foreign
        Message 3 of 3 , Jul 5, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          My vote would be to use the term "gandalla" introduced with a
          description. I am not all that fond of the term "snood" and am all for
          introducing foreign language variations for terms into English. As for
          the definition of "snood", here is its entry in the Oxford English
          Dictionary.

          Donata Bonacorsi

          snood (snu:d), n. Forms: 1 snod, 6- (Sc. and north.) snude (9 sneud),
          7- snood (9 snoud); north. 8 snead, 9 sneiad; Sc. 9 snid, sneed, etc.
          [OE. snod, of obscure origin.]

          1. a. A fillet, band, or ribbon, for confining the hair; latterly,
          in Scotland (and the north of England), the distinctive hair-band worn
          by young unmarried women. More recently, a fashionable bag-like or
          closed woman's hairnet, usu. worn at the back of the head.

          c725 Corpus Gloss. (Hessels) C137 Cappa, snod. a1000 in Wr.-Wulcker
          204 Cinthium, mitra, snod. c1000 Aelfric Hom. II. 28 Tha laerde hi sum
          iudeisc man, thaet heo name aenne wernaegel..and becnytte to anum
          hringe mid hire snode. c1150 in Wr.-Wulcker 540 Uitta, snod.

          1535 Stewart Cron. Scot. I. 377 Ghone ma nocht saif thair bodie with
          ane snude. 1643 Orkney Witch Trial in Abbotsford Club Misc. I. 177 Ghe
          said vnto hir that ghe haid Vrsulla Alexanderis snood, quhilk ghe haid
          keipit since ghe put hir in hir winding sheit. 1677 Nicholson in
          Trans. R. Soc. Lit. (1870) IX. 319 Snude, a fillet, or hair lace. 1725
          Ramsay Gentle Sheph.

          ii. iv, The rashes green..Of which..For thee I plet the flow'ry belt
          and snood.
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