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  • Emmie
    Hello, I am new to the group, and I am still pretty new to the SCA (Just joined in Aug 05... a week after my first interaction with the SCA.) I am going to
    Message 1 of 21 , Dec 12, 2005
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      Hello, I am new to the group, and I am still pretty new to the SCA
      (Just joined in Aug 05... a week after my first interaction with the
      SCA.) I am going to attempt my first A & S competition this spring.
      I've been researching my project (Manesse Codex fillet) and I have
      been trying to figure a period alternative to buckram. I have posted
      to some other lists and have received several suggestions (wheat
      starch, hyde glue, waxed linen) --- so far the waxed linen sounds like
      the best option available. Especially keeping in mind that I am in a
      warm area of the kingdom.

      I was hoping those that are wiser and more experienced could tell me
      if this is just plain silly or not. Any gentle nidges towards the
      right direction would be greatly appreciated in order to avoid any
      future embarassments at the event this spring.

      YIS,

      Elisabeth Hänsel
    • Cynthia Virtue
      ... Two or three layers of linen stitched together -- almost like quilting, stitched across the face of the fabric -- can be very, very stiff, and is easy to
      Message 2 of 21 , Dec 12, 2005
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        Emmie wrote:

        > I have posted
        > to some other lists and have received several suggestions (wheat
        > starch, hyde glue, waxed linen) --- so far the waxed linen sounds like

        Two or three layers of linen stitched together -- almost like quilting,
        stitched across the face of the fabric -- can be very, very stiff, and
        is easy to achieve.

        I'm not sure waxing linen would be the best choice, because heat from
        the head, or the sun, would soften it, and possibly get wax on your hair
        or your veils, or make the hat translucent.

        Another option would be felted from white wool, although I don't think
        this is particularly likely.

        Have you seen Danabren's page on them, and mine? They might give you
        some other ideas, or inspire you to come up with other ideas entirely.
        (I enjoy a rousing debate on hat construction.)

        http://baronmorgan.gallowglass.org/articles/cna07_plantaganetcap.html
        http://www.virtue.to/articles/coffee.html

        --
        Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent

        Feeling like your Middle Age is upon you? New design at my CafePress
        store, with a medieval woodcut of a pharmacist, a paen to OTC drugs, and
        a quote from Chaucer about old(er) age. Black T-shirt, various other
        colors & items: http://www.cafepress.com/virtueventures.39314581
      • danabren@verizon.net
        Hello and welcome! Some years ago a friend used starch for a pleated linen fillet, and excitedly showed it off to me while wearing it, then muttered that seam
        Message 3 of 21 , Dec 12, 2005
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          Hello and welcome!

          Some years ago a friend used starch for a pleated linen fillet, and excitedly showed it off to me while wearing it, then muttered that seam binding on the lower inside edge would make it a LOT more comfortable. While it looked gloriously blue-white and practically twinkled from the starch, it was quite rough against her brow. A veil underneath would have the same effect as unstarched seam binding, and be more period.

          Danabren
          East

          >Hello, I am new to the group, and I am still pretty new to the SCA
          >(Just joined in Aug 05... a week after my first interaction with the
          >SCA.) I am going to attempt my first A & S competition this spring.
          >I've been researching my project (Manesse Codex fillet) and I have
          >been trying to figure a period alternative to buckram. I have posted
          >to some other lists and have received several suggestions (wheat
          >starch, hyde glue, waxed linen) --- so far the waxed linen sounds like
          >the best option available. Especially keeping in mind that I am in a
          >warm area of the kingdom.
          >
          >I was hoping those that are wiser and more experienced could tell me
          >if this is just plain silly or not. Any gentle nidges towards the
          >right direction would be greatly appreciated in order to avoid any
          >future embarassments at the event this spring.
          >
          >YIS,
          >
          >Elisabeth Hänsel
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >Community email addresses:
          > Post message: SCA-Milliners@onelist.com
          > Subscribe: SCA-Milliners-subscribe@onelist.com
          > Unsubscribe: SCA-Milliners-unsubscribe@onelist.com
          > List owner: SCA-Milliners-owner@onelist.com
          >
          >Shortcut URL to this page:
          > http://www.onelist.com/community/SCA-Milliners
          >Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >


          ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^
          Things To Do Today:
          1. Get Up.
          2. Survive.
          3. Go Back To Bed.
        • Emmie
          ... you ... entirely. ... I have seen both sites and read them quite thoroughly. Though I do have a differant theory about the Manesse Codex fillet. The
          Message 4 of 21 , Dec 12, 2005
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            > Have you seen Danabren's page on them, and mine? They might give
            you
            > some other ideas, or inspire you to come up with other ideas
            entirely.
            > (I enjoy a rousing debate on hat construction.)
            >
            > http://baronmorgan.gallowglass.org/articles/cna07_plantaganetcap.html
            > http://www.virtue.to/articles/coffee.html
            >
            > --
            > Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent
            >


            I have seen both sites and read them quite thoroughly. Though I do
            have a differant theory about the Manesse Codex fillet. The coffee
            filter style that you made and placed on your site seems to be more
            prevelant in French and English cultures. (Just my theory, I am
            currently researching my behind off to find proper documentation.)
            But, I believe that it is a cording on the top of the fillet in a
            curved/wavy pattern and not just a ruffle or pleat. When you look at
            the Codex in its entirity there are other illuminations that are VERY
            detailed (peacock feathers and such.) I just cannot bring myself to
            believe that the artist(s) would draw such fine detail to the feathers
            and other headwear worn by the gentlemen and just skim over the detail
            of the ladies fillets.

            It has also been suggested to me that it may be a cord of finger-loop
            braiding. This is probably true of other items, but due to the
            smoothness and lack of texture I would not guess that. I am tracking
            my documentation (as a way to help me organize it, and allow others in
            my canton to see what I am doing and give me a nudge when needed
            towards the right direction) if you are interested in seeing what I
            have... http://www.elisabethscompendium.org/ my job, husband and two
            little boys do keep me from updating it as often as I should. So it
            is a little behind. I still have more information to put up there.

            Thank you for the information about "quilting" the linen together. I
            am still a bit new to sewing but I can probably figure it out. That
            had been suggested as well on one list but I was just worried about
            the texture of the stitches showing through the outer layer of linen.
            I'm sure with practice I can learn to make it look good and it won't
            melt or sog in the heat and humidity like the wax - - so that is a
            plus!

            Thank you for replying and giving me input. Any other helpful nudges,
            advice, scoldings, ect... will be greatly appreciated!

            YIS,

            Elisabeth Hänsel
          • Cynthia Virtue
            ... It s certainly possible that there were many different styles of this hat, with different critical elements. The cording: I m not sure I understand you.
            Message 5 of 21 , Dec 12, 2005
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              Emmie wrote:
              > But, I believe that it is a cording on the top of the fillet in a
              > curved/wavy pattern and not just a ruffle or pleat.

              It's certainly possible that there were many different styles of this
              hat, with different critical elements.

              The cording: I'm not sure I understand you. How does the cording go on
              so that it looks like the wave at the top, or pleating on the side?

              --
              Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent
            • danabren@verizon.net
              I agree with you that some examples of the coffee filter cap show cording distinctly along the upper edge, but I don t think that ALL ruffle-topped fillets are
              Message 6 of 21 , Dec 12, 2005
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                I agree with you that some examples of the coffee filter cap show cording distinctly along the upper edge, but I don't think that ALL ruffle-topped fillets are corded. Just my opinion, feel free to ignore at will :)

                If you try the quilting approach, don't pull the threads tightly and you won't get any puffiness at the stitches, then you won't have to worry about their showing through the outer layer. A simple basting stitch should work well here.

                Danabren

                >Thank you for the information about "quilting" the linen together. I
                >am still a bit new to sewing but I can probably figure it out. That
                >had been suggested as well on one list but I was just worried about
                >the texture of the stitches showing through the outer layer of linen.
                >I'm sure with practice I can learn to make it look good and it won't
                >melt or sog in the heat and humidity like the wax - - so that is a
                >plus!
                >
                >Thank you for replying and giving me input. Any other helpful nudges,
                >advice, scoldings, ect... will be greatly appreciated!
                >
                >YIS,
                >
                >Elisabeth Hänsel
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >Community email addresses:
                > Post message: SCA-Milliners@onelist.com
                > Subscribe: SCA-Milliners-subscribe@onelist.com
                > Unsubscribe: SCA-Milliners-unsubscribe@onelist.com
                > List owner: SCA-Milliners-owner@onelist.com
                >
                >Shortcut URL to this page:
                > http://www.onelist.com/community/SCA-Milliners
                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >


                ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^
                Things To Do Today:
                1. Get Up.
                2. Survive.
                3. Go Back To Bed.
              • Emmie
                ... cording distinctly along the upper edge, but I don t think that ALL ruffle-topped fillets are corded. Just my opinion, feel free to ignore at will :) I m
                Message 7 of 21 , Dec 12, 2005
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                  <Danabren wrote:
                  >
                  > I agree with you that some examples of the coffee filter cap show
                  cording distinctly along the upper edge, but I don't think that ALL
                  ruffle-topped fillets are corded. Just my opinion, feel free to
                  ignore at will :)


                  I'm not ignoring your opinion Danabren, I agree with you. My theory
                  has been dismissed by many people that I started to question myself.

                  <Cynthia Virtue wrote:
                  >
                  > The cording: I'm not sure I understand you. How does the cording
                  go on
                  > so that it looks like the wave at the top, or pleating on the side?


                  I apologize, I have a tendancy to think faster than I speak or
                  type. Here is a link to a sculpture (zoomed in for more detailed)
                  that shows cording on the top of a fillet for decoration (Also a
                  close of some views from the Codex.)

                  http://www.elisabethscompendium.org/ManesseCodexFillet/VisualSecondar
                  ySources/Misc/TheVisitationzoom1.jpg

                  http://www.elisabethscompendium.org/MCodexPic1.JPG

                  The cording is probably tacked or more likely sewn in a similiar
                  manner as cloth buttons were to the fillet in a "S" pattern or wavy
                  pattern (as in the Manesse Codex.) That explains the 3 dimensional
                  look.

                  I have a VERY rough first attempt at home. I made a small tube of
                  linen and filled it with a soft cotton cording. I then sewed it to
                  the fillet. I will post the picture tonight when I get home.
                  Again, it is a first attempt... so it has its flaws, like trying to
                  figure out how to hide the seams. (Did I mentin I am a sewing
                  novice, lol.) Cynthia's website did help me out with the initial
                  one though, I never knew what buckram was before that, lol. I just
                  alot people don't, because the local fabric store looked at me like
                  I was insane when I was looking for it.

                  I hope that made a little more sense. I guess I see the Manesse
                  Codex style of fillet as the start to the German taste in unique and
                  interesting headwear ; )

                  YIS,

                  Elisabeth Hänsel
                • Cynthia Virtue
                  ... Oh, I see. Yes, that could be so. I m not sure the Visitation hat is the same thing, being so narrow and all, but the cording idea is very interesting.
                  Message 8 of 21 , Dec 12, 2005
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                    Emmie wrote:
                    > http://www.elisabethscompendium.org/MCodexPic1.JPG
                    >
                    > The cording is probably tacked or more likely sewn in a similiar
                    > manner as cloth buttons were to the fillet in a "S" pattern or wavy
                    > pattern (as in the Manesse Codex.) That explains the 3 dimensional
                    > look.

                    Oh, I see. Yes, that could be so.

                    I'm not sure the Visitation hat is the same thing, being so narrow and
                    all, but the cording idea is very interesting. (I agree that the
                    Manesse ones in those illustrations are not pleated.)

                    I saw one example that a lady had done of this hat, and the waves were
                    sewn-and-turned so it stood up like a crown, almost. That didn't look
                    quite right, I thought.

                    --
                    Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent
                  • Rebecca Perry
                    Personally, I think wool felt *is* a likely option (why do you not, Dame Cynthia?), and so far I haven t seen anyone try it. I may have to vary from my usual
                    Message 9 of 21 , Dec 12, 2005
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                      Personally, I think wool felt *is* a likely option (why do you not, Dame
                      Cynthia?), and so far I haven't seen anyone try it. I may have to vary from
                      my usual persona and try it myself.

                      Felt-making is fun and easy. If you are interested I would be happy to help
                      you with sources for materials & instructions

                      Savina

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com]
                      On Behalf Of Emmie
                      Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 1:02 PM
                      To: SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [SCA-Milliners] Re: New to group... and have a question...


                      I have seen both sites and read them quite thoroughly. Though I do
                      have a differant theory about the Manesse Codex fillet. The coffee
                      filter style that you made and placed on your site seems to be more
                      prevelant in French and English cultures. (Just my theory, I am
                      currently researching my behind off to find proper documentation.)
                      But, I believe that it is a cording on the top of the fillet in a
                      curved/wavy pattern and not just a ruffle or pleat. When you look at
                      the Codex in its entirity there are other illuminations that are VERY
                      detailed (peacock feathers and such.) I just cannot bring myself to
                      believe that the artist(s) would draw such fine detail to the feathers
                      and other headwear worn by the gentlemen and just skim over the detail
                      of the ladies fillets.

                      It has also been suggested to me that it may be a cord of finger-loop
                      braiding. This is probably true of other items, but due to the
                      smoothness and lack of texture I would not guess that. I am tracking
                      my documentation (as a way to help me organize it, and allow others in
                      my canton to see what I am doing and give me a nudge when needed
                      towards the right direction) if you are interested in seeing what I
                      have... http://www.elisabethscompendium.org/ my job, husband and two
                      little boys do keep me from updating it as often as I should. So it
                      is a little behind. I still have more information to put up there.

                      Thank you for the information about "quilting" the linen together. I
                      am still a bit new to sewing but I can probably figure it out. That
                      had been suggested as well on one list but I was just worried about
                      the texture of the stitches showing through the outer layer of linen.
                      I'm sure with practice I can learn to make it look good and it won't
                      melt or sog in the heat and humidity like the wax - - so that is a
                      plus!

                      Thank you for replying and giving me input. Any other helpful nudges,
                      advice, scoldings, ect... will be greatly appreciated!

                      YIS,

                      Elisabeth Hänsel






                      Community email addresses:
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                      Subscribe: SCA-Milliners-subscribe@onelist.com
                      Unsubscribe: SCA-Milliners-unsubscribe@onelist.com
                      List owner: SCA-Milliners-owner@onelist.com

                      Shortcut URL to this page:
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                      Yahoo! Groups Links








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                    • Emmie
                      ... and ... I thought the same when I first saw it, but there are some very narrow fillets that can be found in the Manesse Codex and the Weingartener
                      Message 10 of 21 , Dec 12, 2005
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                        > Cynthia wrote:
                        > Oh, I see. Yes, that could be so.
                        >
                        > I'm not sure the Visitation hat is the same thing, being so narrow
                        and
                        > all, but the cording idea is very interesting. (I agree that the
                        > Manesse ones in those illustrations are not pleated.)

                        I thought the same when I first saw it, but there are some very
                        narrow fillets that can be found in the Manesse Codex and the
                        Weingartener Leiderhandschrift. Also, the fact that the veil is
                        over the fillet in "The Vistitation." made me come to the
                        conclusion that it is a fillet and not a coronet or crown. I have
                        not found any German artwork yet where Mary is in a crown with a
                        veil and the veil is over the crown. But again, these are just my
                        observations and I am still new to the whole research thing. For
                        all I know I am making bad assumptions.

                        What do you think it could be?

                        YIS,

                        Elisabeth
                      • uxbridgefox
                        ... Has any one thought about goffering to create this kind of edge? I think we start seeing the goffered veil in the 14th century. Just thinking out loud,
                        Message 11 of 21 , Dec 12, 2005
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                          >
                          > http://www.elisabethscompendium.org/MCodexPic1.JPG
                          >

                          Has any one thought about goffering to create this kind of edge? I
                          think we start seeing the goffered veil in the 14th century.

                          Just thinking out loud,
                          Eleanor le Brun
                        • unclrashid
                          There are some funny extant spanish hats of about this period that use parchment as their base or frame. Once I heard this, I had to smack my own forehead, it
                          Message 12 of 21 , Dec 12, 2005
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                            There are some funny extant spanish hats of about this period that
                            use parchment as their base or frame. Once I heard this, I had to
                            smack my own forehead, it seems so obvious. While we have no
                            documentation for them doing it elsewhere, I find it hard to believe
                            that it wouldn't have been used, it's so suited to that function.

                            Parchment is expensive, but you may be able to find rawhide cheaply
                            and stretch it yourself. You certainly wouldn't need to turn it into
                            the same grade of perfection as a piece that was destined for
                            calligraphy.

                            Rashid


                            --- In SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com, Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue@t...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > Emmie wrote:
                            >
                            > > I have posted
                            > > to some other lists and have received several suggestions (wheat
                            > > starch, hyde glue, waxed linen) --- so far the waxed linen sounds
                            like
                            >
                            > Two or three layers of linen stitched together -- almost like
                            quilting,
                            > stitched across the face of the fabric -- can be very, very stiff,
                            and
                            > is easy to achieve.
                            >
                            > I'm not sure waxing linen would be the best choice, because heat
                            from
                            > the head, or the sun, would soften it, and possibly get wax on your
                            hair
                            > or your veils, or make the hat translucent.
                            >
                            > Another option would be felted from white wool, although I don't
                            think
                            > this is particularly likely.
                            >
                            > Have you seen Danabren's page on them, and mine? They might give
                            you
                            > some other ideas, or inspire you to come up with other ideas
                            entirely.
                            > (I enjoy a rousing debate on hat construction.)
                            >
                            >
                            http://baronmorgan.gallowglass.org/articles/cna07_plantaganetcap.html
                            > http://www.virtue.to/articles/coffee.html
                            >
                            > --
                            > Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent
                            >
                            > Feeling like your Middle Age is upon you? New design at my
                            CafePress
                            > store, with a medieval woodcut of a pharmacist, a paen to OTC
                            drugs, and
                            > a quote from Chaucer about old(er) age. Black T-shirt, various
                            other
                            > colors & items: http://www.cafepress.com/virtueventures.39314581
                            >
                          • Emmie
                            ... Thank you. That is an interesting thought as well. Here is the picture of my first attempt. It was not completed when the photo was taken (my husband has
                            Message 13 of 21 , Dec 13, 2005
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                              rashid wrote:
                              >
                              > There are some funny extant spanish hats of about this period that
                              > use parchment as their base or frame. Once I heard this, I had to
                              > smack my own forehead, it seems so obvious.

                              Thank you. That is an interesting thought as well.

                              Here is the picture of my first attempt. It was not completed when
                              the photo was taken (my husband has been "cleaning" our closets and
                              I am still trying to find where he put my fillet) --- so please
                              ignore the yellow pins. Again, this one is a part of the learning
                              curve. I also made it before I completed much research, so I expect
                              my new one to look a bit differant.

                              http://elisabethscompendium.org/MyGiving.jpg

                              Gauffered edges? It has been recommended, but I was going with
                              cording because in this case I do not believe the edges are
                              gauffered. The Codex is pretty detailed, and the edges of this
                              style are 3 dimensional and rounded, that is why I was going with
                              cording.

                              YIS,

                              Elisabeth
                            • danabren@verizon.net
                              This looks fabulous, and not at all what I was visualizing when you said cording - I was thinking of actual cords, like braids or twisted fibers (as can be
                              Message 14 of 21 , Dec 13, 2005
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                                This looks fabulous, and not at all what I was visualizing when you said "cording" - I was thinking of actual cords, like braids or twisted fibers (as can be seen on a few sculptural examples). How did you make the upper edge? Do you have a photo "how to"? This is the best interpretation of this style so far, and I'd like to know more about your production process.

                                Danabren

                                >Here is the picture of my first attempt. It was not completed when
                                >the photo was taken (my husband has been "cleaning" our closets and
                                >I am still trying to find where he put my fillet) --- so please
                                >ignore the yellow pins. Again, this one is a part of the learning
                                >curve. I also made it before I completed much research, so I expect
                                >my new one to look a bit differant.
                                >
                                >http://elisabethscompendium.org/MyGiving.jpg
                                >
                                >YIS,
                                >
                                >Elisabeth
                                >

                                ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^
                                Things To Do Today:
                                1. Get Up.
                                2. Survive.
                                3. Go Back To Bed.
                              • unclrashid
                                I ve never seen anybody interpret it that way, but it does look like the pics you referenced. Rashid ... expect
                                Message 15 of 21 , Dec 13, 2005
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                                  I've never seen anybody interpret it that way, but it does look like
                                  the pics you referenced.

                                  Rashid


                                  --- In SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com, "Emmie" <emmiewilliams@h...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > Here is the picture of my first attempt. It was not completed when
                                  > the photo was taken (my husband has been "cleaning" our closets and
                                  > I am still trying to find where he put my fillet) --- so please
                                  > ignore the yellow pins. Again, this one is a part of the learning
                                  > curve. I also made it before I completed much research, so I
                                  expect
                                  > my new one to look a bit differant.
                                  >
                                  > http://elisabethscompendium.org/MyGiving.jpg
                                  >
                                  > Gauffered edges? It has been recommended, but I was going with
                                  > cording because in this case I do not believe the edges are
                                  > gauffered. The Codex is pretty detailed, and the edges of this
                                  > style are 3 dimensional and rounded, that is why I was going with
                                  > cording.
                                  >
                                  > YIS,
                                  >
                                  > Elisabeth
                                  >
                                • mary_m_haselbauer
                                  ... wavy ... dimensional ... and ... were ... look ... Actually, this makes sense to me. I have a theory that the fillet grew out of narrower headbands worn
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Dec 13, 2005
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                                    --- In SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com, Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue@t...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Emmie wrote:
                                    > > http://www.elisabethscompendium.org/MCodexPic1.JPG
                                    > >
                                    > > The cording is probably tacked or more likely sewn in a similiar
                                    > > manner as cloth buttons were to the fillet in a "S" pattern or
                                    wavy
                                    > > pattern (as in the Manesse Codex.) That explains the 3
                                    dimensional
                                    > > look.
                                    >
                                    > Oh, I see. Yes, that could be so.
                                    >
                                    > I'm not sure the Visitation hat is the same thing, being so narrow
                                    and
                                    > all, but the cording idea is very interesting. (I agree that the
                                    > Manesse ones in those illustrations are not pleated.)
                                    >
                                    > I saw one example that a lady had done of this hat, and the waves
                                    were
                                    > sewn-and-turned so it stood up like a crown, almost. That didn't
                                    look
                                    > quite right, I thought.
                                    >
                                    > --
                                    > Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent
                                    >

                                    Actually, this makes sense to me. I have a theory that the fillet
                                    grew out of narrower headbands worn under a veil. Remember those 12th
                                    century narrow bands that are a wrapped cord or wire? Those would be
                                    great for pinning a veil to. Anyway, I can see a cord remaining part
                                    of the hat even as band grew wider and evolved into the "pork pie"
                                    style of the Manessa Codex.

                                    My other theory on the Manessa hats is that that book is all about
                                    young people. The guys are often wearing their hoods on top of their
                                    heads. This has been compared to wearing one's baseball cap
                                    backwards - something kids to to be different. It's possible the
                                    girls are up to something different as well. Using a non-hat object
                                    on the head for instance. This opens up even more possibilites.

                                    I would so love to see more sculptures of that style.

                                    Emmie- I really like how you are going about your research. I like
                                    that you are looking at the level of detail in the rest of the book
                                    to help you interpret these hats. Often folks look at a single image
                                    from a manuscript and don't understand the context. You mention that
                                    you are new at research and I just wanted to let you know that I
                                    think you are on the right track.

                                    Cheers,
                                    Slaine
                                  • Emmie
                                    ... This is the best interpretation of this style so far, and I d like to know more about your production process. ... Well, I did not track the process very
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Dec 13, 2005
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                                      Danabren wrote:
                                      >
                                      > How did you make the upper edge? Do you have a photo "how to"?
                                      This is the best interpretation of this style so far, and I'd like
                                      to know more about your production process.
                                      >


                                      Well, I did not track the process very well because it was my first
                                      attempt and I was expecting to make oodles of mistakes... which I
                                      did.

                                      It is an ordinary fillet with the seam hidden under the "cording."
                                      The cording was linen I sewed into a tube and then stuffed with the
                                      cotton filler (used with uphosterly.) I then wet the "cording I
                                      made and pinned it in place and left it to dry (that is the stage
                                      the picture was at.) I then hand sewed in place in pretty much the
                                      same way you'd sew on a cloth button. I did have to place
                                      additional stitches to hold in the appropriate curved pattern. My
                                      seams and stitching as messy, but I am still learning.

                                      YIS,

                                      Elisabeth
                                    • Cynthia Virtue
                                      ... Seam? A closed top, then? It does look good, the way you ve done it. ... young people. I really should find a translation somewhere and read it! But
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Dec 14, 2005
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                                        Emmie wrote:

                                        > It is an ordinary fillet with the seam hidden under the "cording."

                                        Seam? A closed top, then? It does look good, the way you've done it.

                                        Mary wrote:

                                        >My other theory on the Manessa hats is that that book is all about
                                        young people.

                                        I really should find a translation somewhere and read it! But this
                                        would follow, since all the women's hair is visible, that they were maidens.

                                        --
                                        Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent
                                      • borderlands15213
                                        ... Yes, actually. Haven t got all the how-to details worked out in my head, yet, but a lot of them are there. Thanks for the reminder: this is one of those
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Dec 14, 2005
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                                          --- In SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com, "uxbridgefox" <foxes@a...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          > > http://www.elisabethscompendium.org/MCodexPic1.JPG
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > Has any one thought about goffering to create this kind of edge? I
                                          > think we start seeing the goffered veil in the 14th century.
                                          >
                                          > Just thinking out loud,
                                          > Eleanor le Brun
                                          >
                                          Yes, actually. Haven't got all the how-to details worked out in my
                                          head, yet, but a lot of them are there. Thanks for the reminder: this
                                          is one of those areas in which I've been wanting to make some trials.

                                          Yseult the Gentle
                                        • Cynthia Virtue
                                          ... What are the options for how it would be goffered? I don t know much about goffering, so I can t picture it right. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Dec 14, 2005
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                                            borderlands15213 wrote:

                                            > "uxbridgefox" <foxes@a...> wrote:
                                            >>Has any one thought about goffering to create this kind of edge? I
                                            >>think we start seeing the goffered veil in the 14th century.
                                            > Yes, actually. Haven't got all the how-to details worked out in my
                                            > head, yet, but a lot of them are there.

                                            What are the options for how it would be goffered? I don't know much
                                            about goffering, so I can't picture it right.

                                            --
                                            Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent
                                          • Emmie
                                            ... about ... I m not really sure if it is just about young people. The Codex is poetry about romatic love. Eleanor of Aquitaine helped bring the idea of
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Dec 14, 2005
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                                              > Mary wrote:
                                              >
                                              > >My other theory on the Manessa hats is that that book is all
                                              about
                                              > young people.
                                              >

                                              I'm not really sure if it is just about young people. The Codex is
                                              poetry about "romatic love." Eleanor of Aquitaine helped bring the
                                              idea of "romantic love" or "courtly love"

                                              http://condor.depaul.edu/~dsimpson/tlove/courtlylove.html

                                              from France, where it spread to England and Germany. Courtly love
                                              was not just for the maidens though, and I believe the Codex truly
                                              reflects that. There are several folios that show "family units"
                                              with children:

                                              http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/cpg848/0593
                                              http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/cpg848/0619

                                              There are several folios that show women with veils on over the
                                              fillet in question (traditionally a style reserved for married
                                              women.) So I don't believe that this fillet was limited to only
                                              maidens:

                                              http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/cpg848/0737
                                              http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/cpg848/0191
                                              http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/cpg848/0537
                                              http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/cpg848/0680

                                              There are also other folios with women that are wearing the
                                              more "traditional" headwear of a married woman (pill box toque w/
                                              veil, veil alone, veil w/ circlet, and veil w/ wimple):

                                              http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/cpg848/0133
                                              http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/cpg848/0021
                                              http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/cpg848/0390
                                              http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/cpg848/0334
                                              http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/cpg848/0383

                                              There is also one folio that clearly shows a goffered veil (with a
                                              wimple and crown) --- because of that clear distinction I never
                                              thought the "ruffle" was goffered but again that is only my opinion):

                                              http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/cpg848/0793

                                              I agree with Mistress Virtue in that a translation of the Codex
                                              would be helpful. The notes on the Heidelberg site are not entirely
                                              helpful. Especially when you do not know the German language and
                                              rely on babelfish.com like I have. (I forsee a college class in my
                                              future.... German 101.)

                                              A majority of the women present in the Codex are maidens though and
                                              that seems very clear.

                                              YIS,

                                              Elisabeth
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