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Re: banker and wife, Burgundian

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  • unclrashid
    I made a similar hat once from a wire frame which I then covered with buckram and covered with thin batting to soften the lines and then covered with brocade.
    Message 1 of 12 , Nov 19, 2005
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      I made a similar hat once from a wire frame which I then covered with
      buckram and covered with thin batting to soften the lines and then
      covered with brocade. It looked pretty good, but you could still see
      a bit of an indication where the wires were for all of that.

      I think they stay on lke a headband does.... they are placed so the
      front edge is just above the "crest" of the skull. a bun or braid
      right behingd that point gives something to pin intoi for extra
      security, but if it is not basically balanced by itself that will hurt
      like the dickens before the end of the day.

      I found that a soft, drapey, flexible brocade is easier to "mold" than
      a stiff one. The kind of fabric that you couldn't use for a dress
      without interlining it. Thre texture that is sometimes referred to as
      "sleazy"


      Rashid


      -- In SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com, Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue@t...> wrote:
      >
      > J. May wrote:
      >
      > > I was thinking of picking up hat
      > > straw (the braids that come in rolls) and constructing it. Of
      course, I
      > > still need something to get that shape from once I wet it down.
      That would
      > > be true for buckram too, though.
      >
      > The straw is a good idea. I've had fairly good results with it,
      > although what I did was deconstruct some cheap hats instead of starting
      > from scratch.
      >
      > You might be able to tie it up somehow to get it that shape when wet.
      >
      > I wouldn't try buckram; I haven't met any yet that was really strong
      > enough for this sort of bizzarity.
      >
      > --
      > Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent
      >
      > "Everyone Who Disagrees With Me Must Die" law was approved by Congress
      > today.
      >
    • Katherine Throckmorton
      ... I think that the coin may be symbolic. I think that the setting and the clothing is real and not allegorical. However, I m not sure that this is a
      Message 2 of 12 , Nov 19, 2005
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        Cynthia wrote:
        >
        > I'd be more likely to think the original was felted; I think none of it
        > is flat, it's probably doing compound curves everywhere.. I don't think
        > that's a real coin in the center, although I suppose it could be.
        >
        I think that the coin may be symbolic. I think that the setting and the clothing is real and not allegorical. However, I'm not sure that this is a portrait of a man and his wife. Notice how he is entirely focused on the money, and the cute, much younger woman is focused on....the money. I've seen several pictures done with a "gold-digging" theme before, although the ones that I remember are by Cranach and considerably more blatant than this one.

        -Katherine

        Darth Vader: No disintegrations.
        Boba Fett: As you wish...
        That was all he ever said. What Vader never realized was that when Boba said "As you wish" what he was really saying was, "I love you."


        --
        _______________________________________________

        Search for businesses by name, location, or phone number. -Lycos Yellow Pages

        http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10
      • Rebecca Perry
        If you look further down the page that lists this artist s work, you ll see another version of the same picture. It may have been a study for this one or
        Message 3 of 12 , Nov 19, 2005
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          If you look further down the page that lists this artist's work, you'll see
          another version of the same picture. It may have been a study for this one
          or something. At any rate, most everything is the same but the details.
          There is no "coin" shape on the hat in the other one.

          I'm not sure this would require an armature - I think if you can get the
          shapes right, you can make it out of thick, fulled wool cloth. You'd be
          surprised how stiff and sturdy (and yet stretchy to grip the head) such hats
          can be.

          I would start by mocking this up with something like felt - the cheap stuff.
          I think I see a seam line (maybe) coming around the point and up over the
          top. I may be reaching, I realize - just bear with me. You can make
          three-dimensional shapes by sewing together curved pieces of flat cloth -
          think of a beanie hat, or a cloth ball. If you try cutting this out one
          "horn" at a time, in two pieces each with the seam line where I said, then
          spread the bottom open and stick it on your head, if you've got the shapes
          right I think it will hold itself up.

          This would be a mock-up, of course. You'd need to figure out the shape for
          one side, then figure out how to connect two of those into one hat. Then I'd
          make it out of thick wool cloth. I bet it would work, and be a lot more
          comfortable than anything with a rigid armature. I also suspect it would
          stay on better. Best of all, it's a very plausible period construction
          method.

          If it were my period, I'd try it myself. Maybe one of these days I'll get
          around to it!

          Savina

          -----Original Message-----
          From: SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com]
          On Behalf Of J. May
          Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 4:53 PM
          To: SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [SCA-Milliners] banker and wife, Burgundian

          http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/r/reymersw/banker_w.jpg

          I would like to make a copy of this hat. Since I can't afford the fabric or
          the time for the dress yet, I figured I'd start on the accessories. As
          Cynthia says "You are not dressed until you are wearing a hat" :)

          I have a few questions. How is this staying on her head? Is the coin in the
          center just a decoration? Are they conical, or flat on top? What is used to
          get that shape in the buckram, if it's conical?

          Samia



          --
          No virus found in this outgoing message.
          Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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        • hleleanor@comcast.net
          I think that you have the right idea about the heavy fulled woolen cloth. This hat reminds me a bit of the strange little hat that matadors wear when fighting
          Message 4 of 12 , Nov 19, 2005
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            I think that you have the right idea about the heavy fulled woolen cloth. This hat reminds me a bit of the strange little hat that matadors wear when fighting bulls. I'm thinking that the complex angles that we are seeing in the horn area, are possibly not the result of curved seams. Perhaps the key here is exactly the flexible fabric, and that it is stitched with essentially straight seams. Could it be that when the hat is pulled tightly down on the head that it could cause the "horns" to bend and create that swooping angle?

            I don't think you are really "reaching" with the seam theory. I believe I can just make out what might be a seam, on the outside edge of the right-side horn. I think the shape could be cut in one, with a fold over the crown of the head, and two side seams, with the whole fitted tightly enough to the head, to stay put, and causing the horns to bend slightly. Does this make sense?

            Also, you note the veil appears to be fastened at the back, at the nape of the neck. The veil itself might aid in holding the hat in place. Being an extremely thin and fine bit of fabric, it probably adds only negligible weight.

            I'm fascinated by this discussion! Wish my sewing room were "in order"...I just moved...UGH!...or I'd pull out some wool and give it a try!

            Best of luck, and let us know how you get on with your experiements.

            Regards,
            Eleanor


            > If you look further down the page that lists this artist's work, you'll see
            > another version of the same picture. It may have been a study for this one
            > or something. At any rate, most everything is the same but the details.
            > There is no "coin" shape on the hat in the other one.
            >
            > I'm not sure this would require an armature - I think if you can get the
            > shapes right, you can make it out of thick, fulled wool cloth. You'd be
            > surprised how stiff and sturdy (and yet stretchy to grip the head) such hats
            > can be.
            >
            > I would start by mocking this up with something like felt - the cheap stuff.
            > I think I see a seam line (maybe) coming around the point and up over the
            > top. I may be reaching, I realize - just bear with me. You can make
            > three-dimensional shapes by sewing together curved pieces of flat cloth -
            > think of a beanie hat, or a cloth ball. If you try cutting this out one
            > "horn" at a time, in two pieces each with the seam line where I said, then
            > spread the bottom open and stick it on your head, if you've got the shapes
            > right I think it will hold itself up.
            >
            > This would be a mock-up, of course. You'd need to figure out the shape for
            > one side, then figure out how to connect two of those into one hat. Then I'd
            > make it out of thick wool cloth. I bet it would work, and be a lot more
            > comfortable than anything with a rigid armature. I also suspect it would
            > stay on better. Best of all, it's a very plausible period construction
            > method.
            >
            > If it were my period, I'd try it myself. Maybe one of these days I'll get
            > around to it!
            >
            > Savina
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com]
            > On Behalf Of J. May
            > Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 4:53 PM
            > To: SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [SCA-Milliners] banker and wife, Burgundian
            >
            > http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/r/reymersw/banker_w.jpg
            >
            > I would like to make a copy of this hat. Since I can't afford the fabric or
            > the time for the dress yet, I figured I'd start on the accessories. As
            > Cynthia says "You are not dressed until you are wearing a hat" :)
            >
            > I have a few questions. How is this staying on her head? Is the coin in the
            > center just a decoration? Are they conical, or flat on top? What is used to
            > get that shape in the buckram, if it's conical?
            >
            > Samia
            >
            >
            >
            > --
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            > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.4/175 - Release Date: 11/18/2005
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
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          • Kristen Dahle
            I get a fairly similar shape simply by braiding my (albeit very long) hair into horns and draping with a rectangular linen veil. If I used felted wool, I
            Message 5 of 12 , Nov 19, 2005
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              I get a fairly similar shape simply by braiding my (albeit very long) hair
              into horns and draping with a rectangular linen veil. If I used felted
              wool, I would imagine that I would get the points shown here and then could
              sew up the back and across the top-back to make it a permanent hat. A pin
              or two through my hair, like I do now with my eveils, would keep it on my
              head.

              http://www.currentmiddleages.org/artsci/photos/SeptCrown02/SeptCrown02.htm

              Near the bottom, I have a row of dolls showing the steps of my headdress.
              The shape of one of the intermediate stages looks a lot like the hat you're
              showing. In the pictures of me farther up the page, I have a straw
              structure over my hair, so the shape is more exaggerated.

              I'm intrigued by her earrings. I don't think I've seen another depiction of
              a woman from this time period with them.

              Pax,
              Elisa (Elisabeth de Besancon)
              >
              > http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/r/reymersw/banker_w.jpg
              >
            • Rebecca Perry
              That explains it a lot more concisely than I did - I m glad you see what I saw, too. :-) Now I may just *have* to try it, even though it really isn t right for
              Message 6 of 12 , Nov 19, 2005
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                That explains it a lot more concisely than I did - I'm glad you see what I
                saw, too. :-) Now I may just *have* to try it, even though it really isn't
                right for my persona. *sigh* I guess I can time travel in order to justify a
                new hat, right? ;-P

                Savina

                -----Original Message-----
                From: SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com]
                On Behalf Of hleleanor@...
                Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2005 10:43 AM
                To: SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com; SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com
                Cc: Rebecca Perry
                Subject: RE: [SCA-Milliners] banker and wife, Burgundian

                I think that you have the right idea about the heavy fulled woolen cloth.
                This hat reminds me a bit of the strange little hat that matadors wear when
                fighting bulls. I'm thinking that the complex angles that we are seeing in
                the horn area, are possibly not the result of curved seams. Perhaps the key
                here is exactly the flexible fabric, and that it is stitched with
                essentially straight seams. Could it be that when the hat is pulled tightly
                down on the head that it could cause the "horns" to bend and create that
                swooping angle?


                *snip*

                Regards,
                Eleanor

                --
                No virus found in this outgoing message.
                Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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              • hleleanor@comcast.net
                LOL! Not right for mine either. But hey, isn t that one of the great things about what we do?...we actually CAN time-travel! Absolutely! What better
                Message 7 of 12 , Nov 19, 2005
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                  LOL! Not right for mine either. But hey, isn't that one of the great things about what we do?...we actually CAN time-travel! Absolutely! What better justification (as if one were needed... ;> ) for a new hat!! Happy journeys! I'd love to see some piccies one day.

                  Eleanor



                  > That explains it a lot more concisely than I did - I'm glad you see what I
                  > saw, too. :-) Now I may just *have* to try it, even though it really isn't
                  > right for my persona. *sigh* I guess I can time travel in order to justify a
                  > new hat, right? ;-P
                  >
                  > Savina
                • Karen
                  It s also interesting to note how similar http://www.wga.hu/art/r/reymersw/banker_w.jpg is to a piece he did in 1539 of a money-changer and his wife --
                  Message 8 of 12 , Nov 19, 2005
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                    It's also interesting to note how similar
                    http://www.wga.hu/art/r/reymersw/banker_w.jpg is to a piece he did in
                    1539 of a money-changer and his wife --
                    http://www.wga.hu/art/r/reymersw/mchanger.jpg

                    The WGA site notes: "Reymerwaele specialized in genre scenes of
                    bankers, usurers, misers, and tax-collectors. The genre scenes show the
                    sin of avarice and the vanity of earthly possessions; according to a
                    Flemish proverb a banker, a usurer, a tax-collector, and a miller were
                    the four evangelists of the devil. These paintings must have been very
                    popular, for they exist in numerous versions and copies, but it is not
                    known what kind of clientele bought pictures of such unpleasant
                    characters, grotesquely presented in a manner deriving (via Quentin
                    Massys) from Leonardo's caricatures."

                    There's some additional interesting analysis about this sort of thing
                    at http://www.ucm.es/BUCM/cee/doc/00-23/0023.htm as well. :)


                    Karen
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