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banker and wife, Burgundian

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  • J. May
    http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/r/reymersw/banker_w.jpg I would like to make a copy of this hat. Since I can t afford the fabric or the time for the dress yet, I
    Message 1 of 12 , Nov 18, 2005
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      http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/r/reymersw/banker_w.jpg

      I would like to make a copy of this hat. Since I can't afford the fabric or
      the time for the dress yet, I figured I'd start on the accessories. As
      Cynthia says "You are not dressed until you are wearing a hat" :)

      I have a few questions. How is this staying on her head? Is the coin in the
      center just a decoration? Are they conical, or flat on top? What is used to
      get that shape in the buckram, if it's conical?

      Samia
    • Cynthia Virtue
      ... Those complex shapes are fun! I d be more likely to think the original was felted; I think none of it is flat, it s probably doing compound curves
      Message 2 of 12 , Nov 19, 2005
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        J. May wrote:

        > http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/r/reymersw/banker_w.jpg
        > I have a few questions. How is this staying on her head? Is the coin in the
        > center just a decoration? Are they conical, or flat on top? What is used to
        > get that shape in the buckram, if it's conical?

        Those complex shapes are fun!

        I'd be more likely to think the original was felted; I think none of it
        is flat, it's probably doing compound curves everywhere.. I don't think
        that's a real coin in the center, although I suppose it could be.

        --
        Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent

        If you're constantly expanding, you never wrinkle. -- Sherman's Lagoon
      • J. May
        Would you felt it modernly? I do wet felting, but I would expect this to be the chemical felting that gives us mad hatters. It would have to be felted over a
        Message 3 of 12 , Nov 19, 2005
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          Would you felt it modernly? I do wet felting, but I would expect this to be
          the chemical felting that gives us mad hatters. It would have to be felted
          over a last (hat block?), wouldn't it? I was thinking of picking up hat
          straw (the braids that come in rolls) and constructing it. Of course, I
          still need something to get that shape from once I wet it down. That would
          be true for buckram too, though.

          Any suggestions?

          Samia

          Oh, and I was not clear about the coin: a stamped decorative piece of metal,
          or an embroidered disk was more my question.

          -----Original Message-----
          J. May wrote:

          > http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/r/reymersw/banker_w.jpg
          > I have a few questions. How is this staying on her head? Is the coin in
          the
          > center just a decoration? Are they conical, or flat on top? What is used
          to
          > get that shape in the buckram, if it's conical?

          Those complex shapes are fun!

          I'd be more likely to think the original was felted; I think none of it
          is flat, it's probably doing compound curves everywhere.. I don't think
          that's a real coin in the center, although I suppose it could be.

          --
          Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent
        • Cynthia Virtue
          ... The straw is a good idea. I ve had fairly good results with it, although what I did was deconstruct some cheap hats instead of starting from scratch. You
          Message 4 of 12 , Nov 19, 2005
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            J. May wrote:

            > I was thinking of picking up hat
            > straw (the braids that come in rolls) and constructing it. Of course, I
            > still need something to get that shape from once I wet it down. That would
            > be true for buckram too, though.

            The straw is a good idea. I've had fairly good results with it,
            although what I did was deconstruct some cheap hats instead of starting
            from scratch.

            You might be able to tie it up somehow to get it that shape when wet.

            I wouldn't try buckram; I haven't met any yet that was really strong
            enough for this sort of bizzarity.

            --
            Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent

            "Everyone Who Disagrees With Me Must Die" law was approved by Congress
            today.
          • unclrashid
            I made a similar hat once from a wire frame which I then covered with buckram and covered with thin batting to soften the lines and then covered with brocade.
            Message 5 of 12 , Nov 19, 2005
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              I made a similar hat once from a wire frame which I then covered with
              buckram and covered with thin batting to soften the lines and then
              covered with brocade. It looked pretty good, but you could still see
              a bit of an indication where the wires were for all of that.

              I think they stay on lke a headband does.... they are placed so the
              front edge is just above the "crest" of the skull. a bun or braid
              right behingd that point gives something to pin intoi for extra
              security, but if it is not basically balanced by itself that will hurt
              like the dickens before the end of the day.

              I found that a soft, drapey, flexible brocade is easier to "mold" than
              a stiff one. The kind of fabric that you couldn't use for a dress
              without interlining it. Thre texture that is sometimes referred to as
              "sleazy"


              Rashid


              -- In SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com, Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue@t...> wrote:
              >
              > J. May wrote:
              >
              > > I was thinking of picking up hat
              > > straw (the braids that come in rolls) and constructing it. Of
              course, I
              > > still need something to get that shape from once I wet it down.
              That would
              > > be true for buckram too, though.
              >
              > The straw is a good idea. I've had fairly good results with it,
              > although what I did was deconstruct some cheap hats instead of starting
              > from scratch.
              >
              > You might be able to tie it up somehow to get it that shape when wet.
              >
              > I wouldn't try buckram; I haven't met any yet that was really strong
              > enough for this sort of bizzarity.
              >
              > --
              > Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent
              >
              > "Everyone Who Disagrees With Me Must Die" law was approved by Congress
              > today.
              >
            • Katherine Throckmorton
              ... I think that the coin may be symbolic. I think that the setting and the clothing is real and not allegorical. However, I m not sure that this is a
              Message 6 of 12 , Nov 19, 2005
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                Cynthia wrote:
                >
                > I'd be more likely to think the original was felted; I think none of it
                > is flat, it's probably doing compound curves everywhere.. I don't think
                > that's a real coin in the center, although I suppose it could be.
                >
                I think that the coin may be symbolic. I think that the setting and the clothing is real and not allegorical. However, I'm not sure that this is a portrait of a man and his wife. Notice how he is entirely focused on the money, and the cute, much younger woman is focused on....the money. I've seen several pictures done with a "gold-digging" theme before, although the ones that I remember are by Cranach and considerably more blatant than this one.

                -Katherine

                Darth Vader: No disintegrations.
                Boba Fett: As you wish...
                That was all he ever said. What Vader never realized was that when Boba said "As you wish" what he was really saying was, "I love you."


                --
                _______________________________________________

                Search for businesses by name, location, or phone number. -Lycos Yellow Pages

                http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10
              • Rebecca Perry
                If you look further down the page that lists this artist s work, you ll see another version of the same picture. It may have been a study for this one or
                Message 7 of 12 , Nov 19, 2005
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                  If you look further down the page that lists this artist's work, you'll see
                  another version of the same picture. It may have been a study for this one
                  or something. At any rate, most everything is the same but the details.
                  There is no "coin" shape on the hat in the other one.

                  I'm not sure this would require an armature - I think if you can get the
                  shapes right, you can make it out of thick, fulled wool cloth. You'd be
                  surprised how stiff and sturdy (and yet stretchy to grip the head) such hats
                  can be.

                  I would start by mocking this up with something like felt - the cheap stuff.
                  I think I see a seam line (maybe) coming around the point and up over the
                  top. I may be reaching, I realize - just bear with me. You can make
                  three-dimensional shapes by sewing together curved pieces of flat cloth -
                  think of a beanie hat, or a cloth ball. If you try cutting this out one
                  "horn" at a time, in two pieces each with the seam line where I said, then
                  spread the bottom open and stick it on your head, if you've got the shapes
                  right I think it will hold itself up.

                  This would be a mock-up, of course. You'd need to figure out the shape for
                  one side, then figure out how to connect two of those into one hat. Then I'd
                  make it out of thick wool cloth. I bet it would work, and be a lot more
                  comfortable than anything with a rigid armature. I also suspect it would
                  stay on better. Best of all, it's a very plausible period construction
                  method.

                  If it were my period, I'd try it myself. Maybe one of these days I'll get
                  around to it!

                  Savina

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com]
                  On Behalf Of J. May
                  Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 4:53 PM
                  To: SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [SCA-Milliners] banker and wife, Burgundian

                  http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/r/reymersw/banker_w.jpg

                  I would like to make a copy of this hat. Since I can't afford the fabric or
                  the time for the dress yet, I figured I'd start on the accessories. As
                  Cynthia says "You are not dressed until you are wearing a hat" :)

                  I have a few questions. How is this staying on her head? Is the coin in the
                  center just a decoration? Are they conical, or flat on top? What is used to
                  get that shape in the buckram, if it's conical?

                  Samia



                  --
                  No virus found in this outgoing message.
                  Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                  Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.4/175 - Release Date: 11/18/2005
                • hleleanor@comcast.net
                  I think that you have the right idea about the heavy fulled woolen cloth. This hat reminds me a bit of the strange little hat that matadors wear when fighting
                  Message 8 of 12 , Nov 19, 2005
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                    I think that you have the right idea about the heavy fulled woolen cloth. This hat reminds me a bit of the strange little hat that matadors wear when fighting bulls. I'm thinking that the complex angles that we are seeing in the horn area, are possibly not the result of curved seams. Perhaps the key here is exactly the flexible fabric, and that it is stitched with essentially straight seams. Could it be that when the hat is pulled tightly down on the head that it could cause the "horns" to bend and create that swooping angle?

                    I don't think you are really "reaching" with the seam theory. I believe I can just make out what might be a seam, on the outside edge of the right-side horn. I think the shape could be cut in one, with a fold over the crown of the head, and two side seams, with the whole fitted tightly enough to the head, to stay put, and causing the horns to bend slightly. Does this make sense?

                    Also, you note the veil appears to be fastened at the back, at the nape of the neck. The veil itself might aid in holding the hat in place. Being an extremely thin and fine bit of fabric, it probably adds only negligible weight.

                    I'm fascinated by this discussion! Wish my sewing room were "in order"...I just moved...UGH!...or I'd pull out some wool and give it a try!

                    Best of luck, and let us know how you get on with your experiements.

                    Regards,
                    Eleanor


                    > If you look further down the page that lists this artist's work, you'll see
                    > another version of the same picture. It may have been a study for this one
                    > or something. At any rate, most everything is the same but the details.
                    > There is no "coin" shape on the hat in the other one.
                    >
                    > I'm not sure this would require an armature - I think if you can get the
                    > shapes right, you can make it out of thick, fulled wool cloth. You'd be
                    > surprised how stiff and sturdy (and yet stretchy to grip the head) such hats
                    > can be.
                    >
                    > I would start by mocking this up with something like felt - the cheap stuff.
                    > I think I see a seam line (maybe) coming around the point and up over the
                    > top. I may be reaching, I realize - just bear with me. You can make
                    > three-dimensional shapes by sewing together curved pieces of flat cloth -
                    > think of a beanie hat, or a cloth ball. If you try cutting this out one
                    > "horn" at a time, in two pieces each with the seam line where I said, then
                    > spread the bottom open and stick it on your head, if you've got the shapes
                    > right I think it will hold itself up.
                    >
                    > This would be a mock-up, of course. You'd need to figure out the shape for
                    > one side, then figure out how to connect two of those into one hat. Then I'd
                    > make it out of thick wool cloth. I bet it would work, and be a lot more
                    > comfortable than anything with a rigid armature. I also suspect it would
                    > stay on better. Best of all, it's a very plausible period construction
                    > method.
                    >
                    > If it were my period, I'd try it myself. Maybe one of these days I'll get
                    > around to it!
                    >
                    > Savina
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com]
                    > On Behalf Of J. May
                    > Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 4:53 PM
                    > To: SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: [SCA-Milliners] banker and wife, Burgundian
                    >
                    > http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/r/reymersw/banker_w.jpg
                    >
                    > I would like to make a copy of this hat. Since I can't afford the fabric or
                    > the time for the dress yet, I figured I'd start on the accessories. As
                    > Cynthia says "You are not dressed until you are wearing a hat" :)
                    >
                    > I have a few questions. How is this staying on her head? Is the coin in the
                    > center just a decoration? Are they conical, or flat on top? What is used to
                    > get that shape in the buckram, if it's conical?
                    >
                    > Samia
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --
                    > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                    > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                    > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.4/175 - Release Date: 11/18/2005
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Community email addresses:
                    > Post message: SCA-Milliners@onelist.com
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                  • Kristen Dahle
                    I get a fairly similar shape simply by braiding my (albeit very long) hair into horns and draping with a rectangular linen veil. If I used felted wool, I
                    Message 9 of 12 , Nov 19, 2005
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                      I get a fairly similar shape simply by braiding my (albeit very long) hair
                      into horns and draping with a rectangular linen veil. If I used felted
                      wool, I would imagine that I would get the points shown here and then could
                      sew up the back and across the top-back to make it a permanent hat. A pin
                      or two through my hair, like I do now with my eveils, would keep it on my
                      head.

                      http://www.currentmiddleages.org/artsci/photos/SeptCrown02/SeptCrown02.htm

                      Near the bottom, I have a row of dolls showing the steps of my headdress.
                      The shape of one of the intermediate stages looks a lot like the hat you're
                      showing. In the pictures of me farther up the page, I have a straw
                      structure over my hair, so the shape is more exaggerated.

                      I'm intrigued by her earrings. I don't think I've seen another depiction of
                      a woman from this time period with them.

                      Pax,
                      Elisa (Elisabeth de Besancon)
                      >
                      > http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/r/reymersw/banker_w.jpg
                      >
                    • Rebecca Perry
                      That explains it a lot more concisely than I did - I m glad you see what I saw, too. :-) Now I may just *have* to try it, even though it really isn t right for
                      Message 10 of 12 , Nov 19, 2005
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                        That explains it a lot more concisely than I did - I'm glad you see what I
                        saw, too. :-) Now I may just *have* to try it, even though it really isn't
                        right for my persona. *sigh* I guess I can time travel in order to justify a
                        new hat, right? ;-P

                        Savina

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com]
                        On Behalf Of hleleanor@...
                        Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2005 10:43 AM
                        To: SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com; SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com
                        Cc: Rebecca Perry
                        Subject: RE: [SCA-Milliners] banker and wife, Burgundian

                        I think that you have the right idea about the heavy fulled woolen cloth.
                        This hat reminds me a bit of the strange little hat that matadors wear when
                        fighting bulls. I'm thinking that the complex angles that we are seeing in
                        the horn area, are possibly not the result of curved seams. Perhaps the key
                        here is exactly the flexible fabric, and that it is stitched with
                        essentially straight seams. Could it be that when the hat is pulled tightly
                        down on the head that it could cause the "horns" to bend and create that
                        swooping angle?


                        *snip*

                        Regards,
                        Eleanor

                        --
                        No virus found in this outgoing message.
                        Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                        Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.4/175 - Release Date: 11/18/2005
                      • hleleanor@comcast.net
                        LOL! Not right for mine either. But hey, isn t that one of the great things about what we do?...we actually CAN time-travel! Absolutely! What better
                        Message 11 of 12 , Nov 19, 2005
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                          LOL! Not right for mine either. But hey, isn't that one of the great things about what we do?...we actually CAN time-travel! Absolutely! What better justification (as if one were needed... ;> ) for a new hat!! Happy journeys! I'd love to see some piccies one day.

                          Eleanor



                          > That explains it a lot more concisely than I did - I'm glad you see what I
                          > saw, too. :-) Now I may just *have* to try it, even though it really isn't
                          > right for my persona. *sigh* I guess I can time travel in order to justify a
                          > new hat, right? ;-P
                          >
                          > Savina
                        • Karen
                          It s also interesting to note how similar http://www.wga.hu/art/r/reymersw/banker_w.jpg is to a piece he did in 1539 of a money-changer and his wife --
                          Message 12 of 12 , Nov 19, 2005
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                            It's also interesting to note how similar
                            http://www.wga.hu/art/r/reymersw/banker_w.jpg is to a piece he did in
                            1539 of a money-changer and his wife --
                            http://www.wga.hu/art/r/reymersw/mchanger.jpg

                            The WGA site notes: "Reymerwaele specialized in genre scenes of
                            bankers, usurers, misers, and tax-collectors. The genre scenes show the
                            sin of avarice and the vanity of earthly possessions; according to a
                            Flemish proverb a banker, a usurer, a tax-collector, and a miller were
                            the four evangelists of the devil. These paintings must have been very
                            popular, for they exist in numerous versions and copies, but it is not
                            known what kind of clientele bought pictures of such unpleasant
                            characters, grotesquely presented in a manner deriving (via Quentin
                            Massys) from Leonardo's caricatures."

                            There's some additional interesting analysis about this sort of thing
                            at http://www.ucm.es/BUCM/cee/doc/00-23/0023.htm as well. :)


                            Karen
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