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Re: [SCA-Milliners] Isabeau of Bavaria

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  • Charlotte Zificsak
    I don t have those pictures in front of me, but I just saw the statue of Jeanne de Bourbon in the Louvre while I was on my honeymoon! I just did a class
    Message 1 of 16 , May 25, 2001
      I don't have those pictures in front of me, but I just saw the statue of
      Jeanne de Bourbon in the Louvre while I was on my honeymoon! I just did a
      class locally about creating these cylinder type cauls. I used *A LOT* of
      non period techniques and materials, but got a pretty good overall effect.
      (I don't have the means in my meager apartment to do metalworking).

      If you want a copy of my instructions, please contact me privately. I won't
      send it out to the list, because it's a fairly hefty attachment with
      pictures. You can always take what parts you like, and try to use period
      materials where you can.

      At least in my area, I don't see a lot of this type of headwear. I can't
      speak for the rest of the Knowne World, but I guess it would be similar.
      People who work in metal consider these pieces to be hats or hairpieces.
      People who work with hats don't have the means to work with metal.

      In Service to the Dream (sometimes achieved with Tacky (tm) Glue and plastic
      gemstones),
      Charlotte


      >From: danabren@...
      >Reply-To: SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com
      >To: SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: Re: [SCA-Milliners] Isabeau of Bavaria
      >Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 10:23:21 -0400
      >
      >
      >On Fri, 25 May 2001 13:55:01 -0000 susanmrichardson@... writes:
      > > Greetings,
      > >
      > > I am new to the SCA and this list so please forgive my lack of
      > > knowledge. 20,000 Years of Fashion, by Francois Boucher, has a
      > > picture of Isabeau of Bavaria on page 206. What type of head piece
      > > would a minor noble wear with this garb?
      > >
      > > Regards,
      > > Sabine of Loch Leven
      >
      >Welcome!!!
      >
      >If you notice, next to Jeanne d'Armanac/Isabeau of Bavaria is a statue of
      >Jeanne de Bourbonne. It looks to be of the same style but without the
      >aggresive coronet. Within period, sumptuary laws were repeatedly ignored
      >and defied, so if you could afford a crown, you wore one. Within the
      >Society we are slightly more hyper *wink*. So if you wear the cauls and
      >band without points, balls, crenellations, leaves of any sort, or other
      >obvious award-related decorations, you're fine.
      >
      >CAVEAT: I don't know which Kingdom you're from, and some do have
      >sumptuary laws/traditions about non Armigers (ie, haven't received your
      >AOA yet, or you must be a Baron) wearing certain widths of metal
      >headband/circlets. If someone gives you a hard time about the width of
      >the band, show them your documentation, or don't make the band out of
      >metal.
      >
      >Hope this helps!
      >
      >Danabren, East
      >
      >^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^
      >
      >"If you cannot set a good example then you'll just have to be a horrible
      >warning"
      >Catherine Aird
      >________________________________________________________________
      >GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
      >Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
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    • Sue Richardson
      Greetings Danabren, Thank you for your welcome and suggestion. I am from the Kingdom of Meridies and do not have an AOA so a metal circlet would be
      Message 2 of 16 , May 25, 2001
        Greetings Danabren,

        Thank you for your welcome and suggestion. I am from the Kingdom of
        Meridies and do not have an AOA so a metal circlet would be inappropriate.
        A frabic covered circlet with cauls sounds perfect.

        Regards,
        Sabine of Loch Leven


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      • Cynthia Virtue
        ... I think that it s an interesting excercise to try it anyway. I have a crespinette that I faked up, and most people report it doesn t set off that ain t
        Message 3 of 16 , May 25, 2001
          Charlotte Zificsak wrote:
          > At least in my area, I don't see a lot of this type of headwear. I can't
          > speak for the rest of the Knowne World, but I guess it would be similar.
          > People who work in metal consider these pieces to be hats or hairpieces.
          > People who work with hats don't have the means to work with metal.

          I think that it's an interesting excercise to try it anyway. I have a
          crespinette that I faked up, and most people report it doesn't set off
          "that ain't metal" alarms if you're about 6 feet away or more. Possibly
          closer, depending on the viewer's level of knowledge. I used that
          knit/mylar embossed "liquid gold" fabric over heavy-duty interfacing.

          Sometime in the next five years, I plan to learn simple metalwork, and
          then maybe I'll give it a try for real!

          --
          Cynthia du Pré Argent (Hartshorn-dale, East)
          "Such virtue hath my pen...." -Shakespeare, Sonnet 81
          "I knew this wasn't _my_ pen!" --Cynthia V.
        • Charlotte Zificsak
          I actually used your website as a basis for my class (you gave wonderful directions). I added fake hair in the cylindars, which was the largest change. Oh,
          Message 4 of 16 , May 25, 2001
            I actually used your website as a basis for my class (you gave wonderful
            directions). I added fake hair in the cylindars, which was the largest
            change. Oh, and I'm not a baroness so I couldn't use your really cool
            pearls... :-) Could I send you a copy of my class materials to look over
            and give me suggestions?

            Charlotte


            >I think that it's an interesting excercise to try it anyway. I have a
            >crespinette that I faked up, and most people report it doesn't set off
            >"that ain't metal" alarms if you're about 6 feet away or more. Possibly
            >closer, depending on the viewer's level of knowledge. I used that
            >knit/mylar embossed "liquid gold" fabric over heavy-duty interfacing.
            >
            >Sometime in the next five years, I plan to learn simple metalwork, and
            >then maybe I'll give it a try for real!

            _________________________________________________________________
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          • Cynthia Virtue
            I d love to see your stuff! I bet the rest of the list would also! ... -- Official government report says 11th-hour vandalism to the White House by
            Message 5 of 16 , May 25, 2001
              I'd love to see your stuff! I bet the rest of the list would also!

              Charlotte Zificsak wrote:
              >
              > I actually used your website as a basis for my class (you gave wonderful
              > directions). I added fake hair in the cylindars, which was the largest
              > change. Oh, and I'm not a baroness so I couldn't use your really cool
              > pearls... :-) Could I send you a copy of my class materials to look over
              > and give me suggestions?

              --
              Official government report says 11th-hour vandalism to the White House
              by Clintonites was a hoax. Newsweek, May 28
            • ldybryna@aol.com
              I would love a copy of your instructions, would youmind emailing them to me, Thanks Lady bryna olympia Ldybryna@aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have
              Message 6 of 16 , May 25, 2001
                I would love a copy of your instructions, would youmind emailing them to me,

                Thanks
                Lady bryna olympia
                Ldybryna@...


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Charlotte Zificsak
                Here you go! Let me know if you have questinos or suggestions. Charlotte ... _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE
                Message 7 of 16 , May 25, 2001
                  Here you go! Let me know if you have questinos or suggestions.

                  Charlotte


                  >From: ldybryna@...
                  >Reply-To: SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com
                  >To: SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com
                  >Subject: Re: [SCA-Milliners] Isabeau of Bavaria
                  >Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 16:22:39 EDT
                  >
                  >I would love a copy of your instructions, would youmind emailing them to
                  >me,
                  >
                  >Thanks
                  >Lady bryna olympia
                  >Ldybryna@...
                  >
                  >
                  >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >

                  _________________________________________________________________
                  Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Cynthia Virtue
                  ... Send it in text format in the body of the message -- the list removes attachments. -- Cynthia du Pré Argent (Hartshorn-dale, East) Such virtue hath my
                  Message 8 of 16 , May 25, 2001
                    > Here you go! Let me know if you have questinos or suggestions.

                    Send it in text format in the body of the message -- the list removes "attachments."

                    --
                    Cynthia du Pré Argent (Hartshorn-dale, East)
                    "Such virtue hath my pen...." -Shakespeare, Sonnet 81
                    "I knew this wasn't _my_ pen!" --Cynthia V.
                  • Charlotte Zificsak
                    Greetings to the list! I just added the caul instructions to our webpage. It s one of those meager pages that you get just to say you re on-line, but now
                    Message 9 of 16 , May 25, 2001
                      Greetings to the list!

                      I just added the caul instructions to our webpage. It's one of those meager
                      pages that you get just to say you're on-line, but now there's actual info!
                      Please feel free to comment, my projects are always a work in progress.

                      ISTTD,
                      Charlotte

                      http://www.geocities.com/zificsak/


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                    • caitlinnicraighne@juno.com
                      I love your handout and the picture of you wearing the cauls. I just have a few questions. 1) how long is your own hair. 2) what did you do with your own
                      Message 10 of 16 , May 26, 2001
                        I love your handout and the picture of you wearing the cauls. I just
                        have a few questions. 1) how long is your own hair. 2) what did you
                        do with your own hair? 3) How does this style look from the side?
                        Thank you for your help.
                        Caitlin nic Raighne

                        > I just added the caul instructions to our webpage. It's one of
                        those meager
                        > pages that you get just to say you're on-line, but now there's
                        actual info!
                        > Please feel free to comment, my projects are always a work in
                        progress.
                        >
                        > ISTTD,
                        > Charlotte
                        >
                        > http://www.geocities.com/zificsak/
                        >
                        >
                        > _________________________________________________________________
                        > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
                      • Charlotte Zificsak
                        Greetings all! I have just added another picture to my page, showing a side view of me wearing the cauls. My hair is just past my shoulderblades. For this set
                        Message 11 of 16 , May 29, 2001
                          Greetings all!

                          I have just added another picture to my page, showing a side view of me
                          wearing the cauls. My hair is just past my shoulderblades. For this set of
                          cauls, I added additional hair. I'd found some illuminations which made it
                          look like there was hair coming back across the back of the head. I threw
                          it in a fake bun, just to try, thinking I could hide my hair under the bun.
                          Well, as you can see in the photo, it doesn't really look so good. It may
                          have looked better if I'd had the right color hair (hint: mixing two colors
                          has a great natural effect).

                          So for the new directions, I just have the fake hair in the cauls. I'll
                          probably just put my hair in a pretty braid, or two high buns right behind
                          the cauls. If you can somehow make it look like your hair is going up to the
                          cauls, that's great (if you have short hair, it would be really easy with a
                          little gel). But I've heard (I don't have sources though, so don't quote
                          me) that women in period used fake hair. Not so sure about the 14th
                          century, but I'm pretty sure the 15th c. Italians did.

                          Does anybody have any better ideas? That's the biggest conundrum about this
                          style.

                          In service,
                          Charlotte

                          www.geocities.com/zificsak/


                          >From: caitlinnicraighne@...
                          >Reply-To: SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com
                          >To: SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com
                          >Subject: [SCA-Milliners] Re: Isabeau of Bavaria
                          >Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 03:12:24 -0000
                          >
                          >I love your handout and the picture of you wearing the cauls. I just
                          >have a few questions. 1) how long is your own hair. 2) what did you
                          >do with your own hair? 3) How does this style look from the side?
                          >Thank you for your help.
                          >Caitlin nic Raighne
                          >
                          > > I just added the caul instructions to our webpage. It's one of
                          >those meager
                          > > pages that you get just to say you're on-line, but now there's
                          >actual info!
                          > > Please feel free to comment, my projects are always a work in
                          >progress.
                          > >
                          > > ISTTD,
                          > > Charlotte
                          > >
                          > > http://www.geocities.com/zificsak/
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > _________________________________________________________________
                          > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
                          >

                          _________________________________________________________________
                          Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
                        • Cynthia Virtue
                          ... Right. The pictures I ve seen, which are usually the plain-vertical-braids (no cauls) show the vertical braids, and then, seemingly unrelated to them, one
                          Message 12 of 16 , May 29, 2001
                            Charlotte Zificsak wrote:
                            > I'd found some illuminations which made it
                            > look like there was hair coming back across the back of the head.

                            Right. The pictures I've seen, which are usually the
                            plain-vertical-braids (no cauls) show the vertical braids, and then,
                            seemingly unrelated to them, one or two braids going around the head at
                            the top of the neck, from ear to ear. I presume that if you had cauls,
                            you'd still have the top-of-the-neck braids. At any rate, it is a good
                            thing to do with extra hair.

                            I don't know how real hair could have gotten into the cauls. Let us say
                            that you have enough hair to try -- your braid is either going to start
                            near the ear, or up on top of your head near your temple. If it feeds
                            into the cylinder from below, there will be a loop from your ear to the
                            bottom of the caul (because the bottom of these cauls are lower than the
                            lowest hair-point -- near the jawline) -- something I haven't yet seen a
                            picture of. If the braid starts near the top opening of the caul, it
                            will either arch over the top of the caul (and supporting circlet) and
                            then dive into the cylinder. I haven't seen pictures of that version
                            either (medieval pictures; I know Norris has drawings.)

                            There is the false hair-on-a-band in the MoL books -- just two plaits of
                            hair, folded in half, and sewn to a fabric band.

                            --
                            Cynthia du Pré Argent (Hartshorn-dale, East)

                            "What did you do to the cat? It looks half-dead."
                            --Schrodinger's wife
                          • Cynthia Virtue
                            ... I just looked at Charlotte s picture from the side. I hadn t considered the stick in in from the middle option. Hmmm. I guess that this could work,
                            Message 13 of 16 , May 29, 2001
                              Cynthia Virtue wrote:
                              > I don't know how real hair could have gotten into the cauls.

                              I just looked at Charlotte's picture from the side. I hadn't considered
                              the 'stick in in from the middle' option. Hmmm.

                              I guess that this could work, depending on how you see the whole
                              structure. Is it a metal cage, or is it folded bound hair with
                              ornamental metal bits top and bottom? The cage would be much more
                              difficult to work with, especially if the holes were very small or nonexistant.

                              I'm much more inclinded towards the cage interpretation, but we have so
                              little information, it could have been either.

                              --
                              Cynthia du Pré Argent (Hartshorn-dale, East)
                              "Such virtue hath my pen...." -Shakespeare, Sonnet 81
                              "I knew this wasn't _my_ pen!" --Cynthia V.
                            • danabren@juno.com
                              On Tue, 29 May 2001 12:16:51 -0400 Cynthia Virtue ... When I first started doing this style murmurmurmur years ago, I had 2 toilet paper
                              Message 14 of 16 , May 29, 2001
                                On Tue, 29 May 2001 12:16:51 -0400 Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue@...>
                                writes:
                                > Cynthia Virtue wrote:
                                > > I don't know how real hair could have gotten into the cauls.
                                >
                                > I just looked at Charlotte's picture from the side. I hadn't
                                > considered
                                > the 'stick in in from the middle' option. Hmmm.
                                >
                                > I guess that this could work, depending on how you see the whole
                                > structure. Is it a metal cage, or is it folded bound hair with
                                > ornamental metal bits top and bottom? The cage would be much more
                                > difficult to work with, especially if the holes were very small or
                                > nonexistant.
                                >
                                > I'm much more inclinded towards the cage interpretation, but we have
                                > so little information, it could have been either.

                                When I first started doing this style murmurmurmur years ago, I had 2
                                toilet paper rolls, covered with fabric and held on by a ribbon, with my
                                (much shorter at the time) hair in a bun at the base of my neck, and a
                                half-circle veil over the top. My rationale for this style was that the
                                braided hair obviously went in the top, and just got stuffed down into
                                the tube, and there was no way that I was going to bother to try and
                                figure out how to do this. Being older, and having much longer hair now
                                :) I have changed my thoughts on this completely.

                                When I do the same braided hairstyle (without the templars), I lean my
                                head over and start the braid from nearly over my eyebrow. When I
                                straighten up, there's a nice squareness to the hair. I fold it at about
                                chin height, bring it back up to the top of the braid, (pinning it into
                                submission) and then cross the excess braid back and forth at the back of
                                my head (also pinning there until I probably resemble a hedgehog). If
                                doing the templars with this hairstyle, you could conceivably have the
                                hair drop right into it from the top, and have it look right. Having
                                read Cynthia's musings on this, (you're so inspirational!) I wonder if
                                possibly it isn't instead a netting or mesh that gets wrapped around the
                                braid, rather than a solid tube that the hair is inserted into (whether
                                from the side or the top). It might also be a solid tube, with a divot
                                shaped hole in the side by the top, so that the tube allows the braid to
                                drop in, without having to go "over the top" (as it were)

                                Danabren

                                ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^

                                "If you cannot set a good example then you'll just have to be a horrible
                                warning"
                                Catherine Aird
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